"Shall I start to "advertise" again boss?"

If you want too - it certainly doesn't hurt to bring the quality members ratio higher. I personally feel some of the discussion has started to slip a bit...

Excellent response Salat!! 

I'd be happy to post what I've learned about learning chemistry and Forum Bull Shit detection 101 if anyone's interested.

I have to bite my tongue a lot because I like to help where I actually am able to, but the way some questions are posed gives me pause.  When I first started I was a little too open about things on these forums and to a certain extent still have to fight it.  

I thought because I wasn't doing anything illegal I'd be ok.  But every time I'd talk about chemistry to friends and family - just doing my herbal extractions instead of buying them at the store, the response I got was “oh you're making a meth lab”.  They were joking but it highlighted how much "meth" lab and chemistry are linked in the mind of the average citizen.

Reading Eleusis' story, Strike’s bust, and a letter over on alt.drugs from a convict helped put the caution in me.  The letter from the convict said the jail was full of people who couldn't make a drug if their life depended on it.  

There was another poor fool in Port St Lucie who got busted for buying a pool chemical and mentioning chloroform - the pool store owner thought he was making a bomb - they made a big deal out of what he had.  Don't know if he was actually making anything or not.  Guilty by appearances.

I’ve found that because my husband and I live in our own little world – it is easy for our “norm” to move right off the edge of everybody else’s extreme.  People talking about doing illegal things on a forum as if they were baking a cake can lull people into a false sense of security.  Your norm moves.

What I’ve seen of people who’ve been on here for a while is they usually get busted and jailed at some point in their career and that is how they learn to avoid it.  My husband falls into that category although he got off lightly with just probation – that was not for chemistry stuff.

You wouldn’t go on a forum and ask someone to help you plot a murder – the penalties are every bit as bad or worse.  And you don’t actually have made anything – you got the knowledge and precursors that’s all they need.  And it’s based on the max you could have made - not taking into account your learning curve.

I seem to be on a soapbox – sorry if I sound like I’m talking down to anyone - but I was lucky to have someone experienced put the fear in me and I’m not sure everyone on here has had that same luck.  

That said, it’s far more likely you’ll wind up eating your words on here after you get busted than getting busted as a result of the forums.  Unless you’re really big fish, the DEA doesn’t have time to hunt us all down.  What’s more likely is a fire or something that brings public safety into your house and voila they discover your lab and then they find out what forums you use and what you talked about online and you’re toast.

Salat

Thanks, I learned to write for ADHD/Aspergers.  Lots of line breaks.  Occasionally I slip up.

Instead of a beginners section how about a Chemistry 101 Laboratory.  This would be for general chemistry and lab techniques. 

I’m going to write up a proposal for what I have in mind and post it later.  I’d be willing to put some work into it, but I’m better at creating things than I am maintaining them.

This would not be someplace you would come to ask about your reaction in progress – it’s someplace you would come to ask how to find out what you need to know and learn the basics of laboratory techniques and safety. 

Teaching them to fish rather than spoon feeding them.

It may be true that most of the newbees who come to the various forums are just trying to make drugs and could care less about chemistry.   However, I think that there are others who are genuinely interested in learning and understanding but don't know how to go about it.

I think the oldtimers and people of my generation may be attributing the younger generation with lack of initiative without realizing that they were bred that way.  I was always dismayed at the other moms who scheduled there kids to death - they didn’t seem to have the freedom to just go outside and play and get into trouble and get themselves out of it – hell they arrest kids for schoolyard fights these days. 

My point being they’re used to having things decided for them and don’t appear to have been taught to think for themselves.  So maybe this is a way to meet them half way. 

It’s not going to solve a lot of the newbee problems but it might be fun.

Salat

People with Aspergers often are thought to be arrogant.  My husband says it's not arrogance if he really is right!

This is some brainstorming for what a Chemistry 101 Laboratory section might look like. 

Chemistry 101 Laboratory or you could call it Clandestine Chemistry Basic Training but that would probably get someone in trouble.  I think trying to provide all the information needed would be rather time consuming, but letting people know what they need to know and how to find and evaluate the information that is out there as well as access to informal tutors might be helpful. 


Goals 
1.   Provide a structured means for aspiring chemists to acquire General chemistry laboratory techniques and knowledge.
2.   Develop UTFSE skills and encourage initiative.
3.   A place for experienced chemists to talk about their hobby and pass on the alchemical secrets or boast of their clever macgivers. 

Some Subforum ideas

Curriculum Document describing the suggested study and lab skill progression with links to specific Lessons or labs.
Lessons threads.  Stuff linked to in the curriculum.
References and Guides  -  See my tongue in cheek ideas below
Safety and Materials – With an emphasis on home labs – not everyone has an eyewash.  How to handle home lab emergencies.  MacGiver ideas, acceptable substitutions.   How to evaluate an msds.

The way it would work is knowledgeable members would post threads in Lessons and add it to the curriculum.  As people work their way through the curriculum they could ask questions about lessons or labs and hopefully someone would answer - at the very least those suitably motivated could read all the problems and solutions everyone else had with a lab before they try it.  (and pigs will fly!)

Some Ideas for Guides

• UTFSE Orientation.  How to answer your own questions
• Everything you’re supposed to know but they forgot to tell you
• BS Detection 101 – this would include both forums and scientific literature.
• Dumb Shit that Happens on Forums.
• Minding your Manners – How not to piss off your generous hosts.
• How to plan a Reaction – the one at it’s not voodoo is good but should be adapted for home use
• Setting up a Lab in your home
• How to writeup a reaction or report results on a forum.
• Adapting a scientific paper for home use.
• Legal stuff you should know.
• Chemistry MacGivering Basics

Under curriculum it would be something like  a progressive set of exercises (mostly borrowed from college labs) that would build skills and techniques needed for reactions and be interesting and useful enough for the beginning chemist to feel like they’re making progress.  An example of that is the classic “Steam Distillation of Cloves” and then separating out the eugenol.  And there’s the endless solvent prep work that needs to occur you prep by studying handling acids and bases, separation theory, sep funnels, distillation, azeotropes, fractional distillation, and finally vacuum distillation.

The other thing that has to occur through each of these steps is researching, acquiring, building, setup etc of equipment or suitable substitutes and testing of those substitutes.  The end result being experience which will stand you in good stead when you finally do the Big one.

I’ve got some sort of sinus problem today and can’t think worth beans – this morning this seemed like a fun and cool idea but I’m having a hard time keeping it simple. 

Salat

My husband says They ain't interested in learning chemistry - that's just a weird geek thing of mine - and I probably had a bit too much sinus medicine.

Sheez talk about brain fever!

Salat

"People with Aspergers often are thought to be arrogant"

Snap ..... thats what i get to hear from some people . I reply "just because i`m good doesnt mean i`m arogant . Just because i`m good and know it doesnt mean i`m arogant . Juust because i´m good , know it and say it doesnt mean i`m arogant it means i´m honest and if you have a problem with that you have an inferiority complex" .

To a beginners section  ---->

Its a good idea but needs breaking down into something that will function = it would be BIG shit to advertise the fact so that beginners that dont deserve it find it and this forum turn into another blue light or psycho-nutz = it would choke on its own shit .

It needs to be structured into levels so that only people who have earned it get to know about and reach the next level .That means a general forum and then hidden sections above eachother

To doubts that it could destroy the forum ----> Why ? Hoiw ? Remember the hive ? Who fucked it ? Not beginners ....... it was the top level....... people who should have known better . The forum would still be as it is = no publicity = only people that have looked for a place like this would find it and only those who proved that they can handle it would be let up each level .

To why to do it ----> BECAUSE YOU OWE IT TO THE WORLD AND YOURSELVES and because it would help even the most advanced member and give them a boost forwards because ...... an expert is only an expert if he understands what hes saying . That means he would have to have the intelligence , knowledge and ...... patience to explain it to a beggimer . Plus anyone who thinks that the only place they can get good ideas is from a better chemist is a dick head . Some of the most life changeing conversations i`ve ever had were with people who were sent to special schools , VERY young kids and people like mongoloids . People who see the world with other eyes and arent weighed down with "education" .  You owe it because the world gave you what you have and you have the duty to pass that on . I`m fuckin sick to death of listening to people on other sites saying it must all be kept secret = they are shit scared to loose income and to have no reason to wank their egos . They say the more people know the more LE will be able to stop things being made . The truth is the more people who know the more people who know and can drive things on , come up with new ideas and fix old ideas that didnt work .

The reason the archive i keep touting was made was to do that . To give people anywhere anytime a chance to free their minds and selves . To pay a debt to society and ......"GOD" ..... for a long strange trip . AND to fuck big brother and the forces of evil in the arse ...... and eventualy win the war against drugs . The same reasons aply to a beginners section .

I`m a big boy and can take critisism but i get pissed off at arogant fuckers moaning at me telling me what a dick i am for asking dumbfuck beginers questions . I have questions that i would like to ask but getting shit in the face by some egoistic arogant dickhead with blinkers on closed at the front by a mirror is not my thing ......... unless i am alowed to put him straight and tell him to fuck off without running the risk of being banned or haveing the big  "I`m a moderator so i`m right and if you wont acept that i`ll bann you" stick at me .

So the decision is where to do it ? Either here or on another / other web sites to keep this one as it is now .

Its the same as haveing kids ...... people who havent had any are ........ MOSTLY .......  not adults . Then wait till you are a grand parent and realise that you are still learning and that it wouldnt be possible without your kids and grand kids . Thats the social deal = i look after you when your young and you look after me when i`m old .

AMEN

BRAVO!!! and  Ditto,

   And well said to ALL of you,
 I just, have been, 'TRULY' impressed "by a group of humans, who (mostly) dont know each other, except here

   Ive just been 'most pleasantly' BLOWN AWAY!!!

   Fuck Yeah!!!

The problem with quizzes is that it makes someone else responsible for determining what you should know.  You think you've passed a test and therefore know everything you need to know about a particular subject so you don't look for any more information.  Something unexpected happens and then you blame whoever set the test up because it didn't include everything you need to know.

If you're doing a reaction you should be looking at msds for all the substances you are working with - problem is like the govt saying "all drugs are bad"  a lot of msds will say to use full regalia for every freakin' thing including water.  So you discount that source of information.  But if you look further and find out that the big chemistry houses that cater to scientist have better quality msds then you will know what hazards you are working with.  

So what is needed is the ability to find and bullshit test information.  That and a healthy respect for chemistry.  There was a thread over at sciencemadness called crispy kritters or something - I got a quick look at a man's face that had been completely burned away and it haunted me.  I'm real careful where I put my head.  

Salat