Author Topic: Methylating agent sources??  (Read 1306 times)

shroomedalice

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2009, 04:59:24 PM »
vesp you dont need an account to view hyperlab only the private chat is for account holders to view.
you probably did not accept the certificate properly. once you have the certificate in your
ssl settings you should be good to go.

I dont know of any filter that will block hyperlab as they are just unknown to the world.
well unless your russian or an old school bee.

there are a few people that played with bromomethane with great success on SM.
I would use that as they have said that there was very little difference in reactivity
to methyl iodide.

although they are bad for you I wonder how bad as we all play with DCM and that will methylenate
catacholes.

shroomedalice

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2009, 05:30:40 PM »
another possiblity is a post ullman made on SM

Ullmann
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thumbup.gif posted on 27-9-2008 at 09:23    
New OTC methylating agent - Methyl Ethane Sulfonate (MES)


(A.) Methyl Methane Sulfonate (MMS) generation from Mesyl Chloride and Methylation of Salicylaldehyde therewith followed by (B.) Methyl Ethane Sulfonate (MES) generation from the Ethane Sulfonyl Chloride prepared from the in situ Chlorination of the Bunte salt from Sodium Thiosulfate and Ethyl Bromide. A cheap and easy way to methylating agent for the amator chemist.

A. Preparation of MethylMethaneSulfonate (MMS) from commercially avaiable mesyl chloride. Its use for methylating salicylaldehyde in a one pot reaction. A generation and in situ utilisation of a very toxic methylating agent avoiding the trouble and danger of stocking it.

In a 500 ml three necked RBF with a N2 inlett, a dropping funnel, a condensator with a silicagel tube. To a methanolic solution of 150 mmol methanesulfonyl chloride (MM 115, 17.3 g, d1.48, 11.7 ml) in 100 ml of cold dry MeOH (ice bath/salt), there is added during 15 minutes dropwise with cooling 150 mmol of sodium methoxyde 3M solution in MeOH (50 ml, 150 mmol). NaCl precipitate. After the addition is done the mixture is let reach RT over 15 minutes. There is thus obtained 150 ml of 1M solution of MMS in MeOH (+salt). It is used as such for the next reaction.

To the above prepared 1M solution of MMS in MeOH there is dissolved 12.2 g (MM 122, 100 mmol) salicylaldehyde. There is then added in one portion anhydrous Na2CO3 (2 eq, 200 mmol, MM 106, 21.2g). The N2 inlet is taken off and the mixture is then refluxed for the night. The next morning the conversion was 73% (HPLC vs references), it was homogeneous on chromatography.


Another run was attempted using Na2CO3 as a base for the generation of MMS:

In a 500 ml three necked RBF with a N2 inlett, a dropping funnel, a condensator with a silicagel tube. To a suspension of anhydrous Na2CO3 (300 mmol, MM 106, 32 g) in MeOH (150 ml) there is added via seringue dropwise and with cooling 150 mmol methanesulfonyl chloride (MM 115, 17.3 g, d1.48, 11.7 ml). An exothermic reaction occur. After the addition is done the mixture is let reach RT over 30 minutes. It is used as such for the next reaction. Addition of 100 mmol salicylaldehyde and reflux overnight gave a 70% conversion to o-anisaldehyde (vs references again).

Now having shown the possibility of generating the carcinogenic methylating agent and using it in situ let it become OTC by making our own Ethane Sulfonyl Chloride...

B. Methyl EthaneSulfonate (MES) generation from the Ethane Sulfonyl Chloride prepared from the in situ Chlorination of the Bunte salt from Sodium Thiosulfate and Ethyl Bromide.

------------------------------------------
The Interaction of Chlorine with Different Types of Organic Sulfur Compounds

Ref: JACS 60 1486

In some runs the sodium alkylthiosulfate was formed
by mixing the alkyl halide or sulfate (0.1 mole) with an
equivalent amount of 20% sodium thiosulfate solution and
50-75 cc. of acetone. When the formation of a homogeneous
solution indicated complete reaction the acetone was
removed with steam and the solution cooled and chlorinated
as usual. In this manner a 55% yield of ethylsulfonyl
chloride was obtained. An attempt to form sodium
cyclohexyl thiosulfate using cyclohexyl chloride was
unsuccessful.
----------------------------------

In a one liter RBF:
EtBr : 0.5 mole MW 109 d 1.46 --> 55 g = 38 ml (I add 40ml)
Sodium thiosulfate.5 H20 : 0.5 mole MW 248 --> 124 g dissolved in 400 ml H20
Acetone 250 ml

After one day of stirring a clear homogeneous solution is obtained. Acetone is then evaporated. According to US2293971 there is added 200 ml of GAA to the 300 ml of solution obtained. Meanwhile in another 1L RBF there is placed 300 g sodium dichloroisocyanurate (MW 220, 85%, 1160 mmole, 55% chlorine -> 140 g active chlorine (2 moles)) covered with a small amount of water. With the help of a teflon tubing through septums bridging the two 1L RBF and going into the solution with the bunte salt chlorine is generated for two hours and passed in by dropping at 0-15°C 250 ml of 32% HCl (2.5 mole) on the DCCA. Be cautious of back pressure jump and frothing! Near the end of generation of the chlorine the solution with bunte salt took a permanent yellow-green tinge. It means excess chlorine was present. After ten minutes it was still yellow and workup was started. The solution is pourred in one liter of water which precipitated 30 g of ethane sulfonyl chloride. Four extractions with 4x50 ml CH2Cl2 were done and all fractions are combined then washed once with sulfite and two times with water. The CH2Cl2 evaporated in vacuo and the yellow and fluid residue is weighted : 62 g is obtained MW 128 -> 468 mmol (94%).

The generated ethanesulfonyl chloride is then used for methylation by decomposing it in MeOH with a carbonate.

Although this reaction work as described some tuning must be done in regard to the lot of salts generated and consequent trouble in stirring the reaction. For instance if syringaldehyde is used as substrate instead of salicylaldehyde the sodium salt will be unstirrable because of too much salt/insolubility of Na+/-syringaldehyde. Use of K2CO3 or KOH in MeOH or acetone or DMF will then probably be preferable if ever the K salt of say for instance syringaldehyde is more soluble in MeOH than the Na salt. At worst a cautious filtration or decantation of the methanolic MES solution from the generated NaCl and NaHCO3 may be useful or necessary.

Enjoy!

Kind Regards,

Dr Ullmann

[Edited on by Ullmann]

jon

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 08:56:56 AM »
dimethyloxalate go to sm they'll tell you it's the safest one

ausser_betrieb

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2009, 10:26:36 AM »
Looks like it could be made of oxalic acid, H2SO4 and MeOH. Is this able to methyate phenoles? What reaction conditions? How is the Yield? An easy to make, safe methylating agent wich is nearly OTC, that would be to good to be true.

jon

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2009, 02:15:34 AM »
search science madness
oxalic is strong enough acid you could just boil it in methanol pka about 1.2

shroomedalice

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2010, 03:49:51 PM »
I missed that one jon thanx :)

Wizard X

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2010, 10:55:25 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Methylating_agents

Trimethylselenonium hydroxide. http://tinyurl.com/yetzj9w

Trimethylselenonium hydroxide is very useful for methylating COOH, SH, aromatic OH, ring NH groups is aromatic heterocycles, etc.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 10:57:57 PM by Wizard X »
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Klute

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2010, 04:58:41 PM »
Trimethylphosphate can be made by pyrolysis of the mixture of mono- and di-esters formed by reacting P2O5 and methanol.

It's extremly usefull, I use it all the time to methylate phenols and amines. You can also form methyl esters with it.

Cheap price, very high vapor pressure, low toxicity, easy to handle, and good yeilds..  What else can be asked?


Goldmember

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2010, 12:43:50 AM »
I cant remember where I read it or even I didnt just imagine it, But Im 50% sure I read a detailed preparation of TMP which involed something along the lines of loading activated carbon with Phosphoric acid,stuffing it in a very hot tube and passing chlorine or Hcl through it ,leading the formed PCl3/POCl3 into excess cold methanol/base and somehow recovering TMP.

This was years ago when the Hive was still up.Anyone know what Im talking about?

no1uno

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2010, 02:01:49 AM »
Trimethylphosphate can be made by pyrolysis of the mixture of mono- and di-esters formed by reacting P2O5 and methanol.

It's extremly usefull, I use it all the time to methylate phenols and amines. You can also form methyl esters with it.

Cheap price, very high vapor pressure, low toxicity, easy to handle, and good yeilds..  What else can be asked?

Klute, do you happen to have a reference for transforming Alkyl- or dialkylphosphates into Trialkyl Phosphates? That would be EXTREMELY fucking handy... ;)
"...     "A little learning is a dang'rous thing;
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Wizard X

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2010, 10:21:07 PM »
Methylating with Trialkyl Phosphates http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv5p1085
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

jon

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2010, 03:53:12 AM »
wizard not to stroke your ego but your pretty good
sincerly spisshak
do you remeber me from then?
you'll see spisshak on the dea monogram about 4-mar btw i could give you pointers on that.

2bfrank

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2010, 05:34:39 AM »

Wizard X

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2010, 05:53:26 AM »
wizard not to stroke your ego but your pretty good
sincerly spisshak
do you remeber me from then?
you'll see spisshak on the dea monogram about 4-mar btw i could give you pointers on that.

Sorry to say I don't recall?

Methylating with Trialkyl Phosphates.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 05:57:25 AM by Wizard X »
Albert Einstein - "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds."

shroomedalice

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2010, 10:26:05 AM »
spisshak ? well now I know :)

still waiting for hellman to popup  ;D

atara

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2010, 01:17:55 AM »
I posted this on wetdreams, but I guess it might find some people here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jctb.503290707/abstract

MeOH + S + Br --> MeBr

The "clever" idea was to substitute DBDMH for Br, as it should react with sulfur in the same way bromine does. I think.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 01:21:09 AM by atara »

Vesp

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2010, 02:10:28 AM »
Quote
MeOH + S + Br --> MeBr

That is brilliant for how well it works.

Quote
With these standardised conditions, the product had a methyl bromide content of 98.2% with an overall yield of 94.42% based on liquid bromine.

Bitcoin address: 1FVrHdXJBr6Z9uhtiQKy4g7c7yHtGKjyLy

Enkidu

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2010, 06:19:52 PM »
Will someone post that ref?

atara

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2010, 04:28:53 AM »
As far as insitu generation... it should be possible to generate in-situ methyldiazonium, maybe? Useless for methylating amines (obviously), but it might work for methylating phenols, if not a little too good. Methylamine and sodium nitrite are both pretty OTC.

Methansaeuretierchen

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Re: Methylating agent sources??
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2010, 08:10:56 AM »
dimethyloxalate go to sm they'll tell you it's the safest one
Can't find any references or relevant posts on SM. Can you link it please?
Does it work for phenolic methylation?

Thx