Cannabinoids Acid Isomerization

nubee · Master Archiver

so, what's the go with hemp seed oil ??? any cbd in there... Smile

as i read there is meant to be really high amounts in raw hemp Wink

-and what's the best otc source for ethanol ? can a solvent other than m/ethanol be substituted for it in the isom reflux? do you think there could be problems from "poison" with the methanol in metho if that was used instead ? is it poison ?

bio · Working Bee

[......quote="nubee"]so, what's the go with hemp seed oil ??? any cbd in there... Smile

...

Good question. There must be some though I tend to quess not very much. Do a little research and let us know. This should be fairly easy to find out. If you did try to convert it you will get a LOT (mostly) soaps formed as any edible type oil would carry over into the isomerization to some extent with the alcohol.

....... can a solvent other than m/ethanol be substituted for it in the isom reflux?......

MeOH, EtOH or IPA should work equally well it's just that MeOH is easier and cheaper to get relatively dry which is needed here. There is also an ambient temperature isomerization with GAA solvent I have seen.

.............do you think there could be problems from "poison" with the methanol in metho if that was used instead ? is it poison ?[/qu........ote]...............

Sure it's poison as are the denaturants in EtOH and almost everything else we work with. It stays behind in the water phase when doing the post isomerization workup.

This procedure and just about any other you will ever try use very toxic substances and must be done with the utmost care with knowledge of what is occuring during the procedures. Otherwise they should NOT even be attempted.

Methanol is quite poison as is isopropanol or even ethanol for that matter. Now where is that Synthetikal disclaimer everyone has read?

nubee · Master Archiver

thanks for that, i was just wondering if the additives may interact at all, but seems not

IndoleAmine · Dreamreader Deluxe

You will smoke/vaporize the residue of your solvents, so its best to use clean stuff which leaves no residue whatsoever upon evaporation. I have access to pharmaceutical grade Et2O ( Very Happy

), so I use that.

EtOH should be fine too, but must be anhydrous. Its the least toxic alcohol, so residual solvent traces (which can persist forever if no vacuum is applied Wink

) are not harmful at all.

BTW the article Java provided states that with alcoholic solvent, anhydr. HCl works amazingly very well too - maybe you wanna try this?

bio · Working Bee

............EtOH should be fine too, but must be anhydrous. Its the least toxic alcohol, so residual solvent traces (which can persist forever if no vacuum is applied Wink ) are not harmful at all. ................

The cleanest reaction grade, absolute RA non USP EtOH is AFAIK the SDA 3a. It's EtOH 90% balance MeOH 5% and IPA 5%. Easy to find just ask for Specially Denatured Alcohol Formula 3a. It's stocked by all lab suppliers. Cheaper types are 85% EtOH 15% MeOH. So make sure you know what you are buying if unfamiliar with the various types and grades. HPLC and Spectro grades are also 90% EtOH balance Methanol and 2-Propanol.

I would use USP 99% then dry that if there are doubts concerning removal of traces which (as IA indicated) ain't gonna happen w/o vacuum/heat properly applied.
Also if the oil is thinned for ease of handling, use 99%USP EtOH. Joe didn't have much luck with 96% dissolving the oil. It separated and even on heating wouldn't become homogeneous. It could have been a little less than 96% as it was slowly fractionally distilled from White Rum. Liquor store ran out of the 96% which they seldom have anyway.

Now looking at the label of some absolute EtOH ACS grade it's .065% water, residue on evaporation .00069% and the assay is EtOH 99.95% which is more than a little confusing as it's denatured. The EtOH content is 94-96% in absolute ACS EtOH. which is NOT on the label. What they are saying is that the ethanol which is in there is 99.95%.

Confused yet? Yea, so is Joe. Know your chems and please don't smoke Mad

2-Butanone(MEK) , gasoline, IPA and god knows what else found in your alcohol solvent.

IndoleAmine · Dreamreader Deluxe

Most pharmacies sell very clean alcohols (91% EtOH and "rubbing alcohol"/IPA), their use is application in/on human subjects; either as ingredient in tinctures or creams, or for making alcoholic beverages. Tell them you wanna make some herb liquor and need drinking alcohol, but want to measure out the dilution for yourself and need the 100% stuff... (expensive though; they want tax of course)

But alas its guaranteed clean enough for consumption... Wink

BTW an improvement to the hair powder hash was found recently: About 500g of raw "bud-cut" leaf residue (residous leaves along with tiny buds and other crap from purifying nice siver pearl Very Happy

) were divided into approximately three parts, of which one was extracted using 4 "Sonron" butane lighter refill cans (trade name changed to maintain neutrality Wink

), and the other two parts were shaken mechanically over a very fine mesh sieve (bee keeper supply) for 1 1/2 hours without further mechanical treatment. The resulting fine yellow hash powder was sifted through a metal sieve until it was very fine a free from hairy plant matter, then it was mixed with the wetted, brownish, uniso-ed but very fresh oil (freed from butane residues by adding lots of hot water and then decanting H2O after a few minutes) with the aid of a few drops of water, the resulting paste was ground between the palms of SWIAs hands for a few minutes while warming every now and then with a lighter, resulting in 5.4g of killer hash, brown/grey on the outside and yellow/golden inside when broken up.

Its the best shit SWIA has seen ever in his live so far!! Go and get some mechanical shaking device and a fine sieve.. Very Happy

(and maybe its better to use three parts for making powder and one part for making oil: a small scale test with a few drops iso'ed oil and the remaining powder from prolonged shaking did make for even better consistence and less stickyness, without apparent loss in quality. Obviously SWIA again used too much oil on too little.... you know.. Laughing

)

bio · Working Bee

Sounds like a pretty good idea! Old Joe just so happens to have a trash bag full of the same type stuff which was well dried with regenerable silica gel. Pretty cool those little plug in things, has 466g silica gel and absorbs over 70g water in a few hours. Then plug 'er in till dry and do it again in a sealed container.

..........shaken mechanically over a very fine mesh sieve (bee keeper supply) for 1 1/2 hours without further mechanical treatment.........

What sieve size/micron would you guesstimate?

.......... The resulting fine yellow hash powder was sifted through a metal sieve until it was very fine a free from hairy plant matter,............

The super fine flour, flat round ones with a lip made of stainless, right? That's what Joe used. Is the "bee" mesh finer than this? jboogie used a "members only"
(wtft is )jacket liner. Maybe like ripstock nylon tent cloth or something?

........ resulting in 5.4g of killer hash,..............

Never occurred to Joe to use a smidgen water. Maybe use less than half oil weight this way. Seems the oil alone from a third of 500g should weigh around 10g if 6% or so. Must be missing something here.

..........Go and get some mechanical shaking device and a fine sieve.....

Yea, yea, We know it's your arm Laughing

and I'll ask Joe to report back when he tries it in a few days cause the natives are getting restless again.

Dope_Amine · Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:18 am

"Then again, "marinol" commercial thc is solely optically pure delta9, and is said to produce "weak" effects compared to natural herb."

Did you guys ever read my old posts at the hive on THC extractions and modifications? -god, I feel like an old fart now (still in my 20's though!)

I tried extracting with PENTANE which you'd think would be about as selective as you could hope for, but given enough time it too will turn a deep green (not as bad as acetone or the like though). Personally, I don't like the idea of not getting a coplete extraction because I only shook the mix for a moment in pentane before filtering and yet still getting green oil. For these reasons, I absolutely must urge you that supercritical butane is the only good way to get purely GOLDEN OIL (and it's so much less trouble!).

If you had a nice little garden of say 200 plants, then I'd go ahead and build a larger, more professional extractor than the rinky-dink 1 foot x 1 inch butane can setup- say a 2 in diameter, 3 foot stainless steel pipe with the proper entry connections for a tank of butane (bought from a specialty gas place) and a needle valve at the other end. I once thought about manufacturing these vessels and selling 'em in the back of High Times and Cannabis Culture, but talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen! Anywayz, bee sure that one of the caps has a fitting so you can open it with a wrench cuz opening the chamber to get the used leaf out is a real bitch. And when you get the leaf out, you'll be amazed at how obvious it is that there isn't a bit of oil left in the plant material cuz it turns to dust in your hand!

Moving on to modifications. When I isomerized, I was not happy with the result, in part because my lovely golden oil turned red, which I didn't consider a good thing. Potency definitely did NOT increase - plant material was a mix of pure sativa (hawiian sativa, durban poison) and indica/sativa mix (NLxblueberry, bubblegum, whitewidowxhaze, etc). Some of this oil was saved, but most was acetylated. I would like to directly acetylate the golden oil someday to see how that compares, but the above two oils were simply not anywhere nearly as amazingly stoney as the golden oil. Plus, the golden oil obviously had the least solvent residue, like none, which made me feel better.

Take a little nug and swipe it in that golden goo and get ready for lift off...

One last note: I think the fact that sulfuric acid is being consumed is proof that under the given conditions, it is destroying the goodies.

nubee · Master Archiver

can anyone else comment on they're efforts with isomerisation, and whether they got results making it worth doing...

and does ne1 know whether hemp seed oil could contain any cbd ???

lusitania · Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:28 pm

"One last note: I think the fact that sulfuric acid is being consumed is proof that under the given conditions, it is destroying the goodies."

uhh i don't think so. If your oil turned out red, then i'm guessing you did something wrong. not trying to be an ass, but thats just what i think after reading the entire article.

Dope_Amine · Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:55 am

Sorry, this thread is so long, I may have gotten lost as to the quality of their results.

I certainly don't think my isomerization went well. I'll look around to see if I can find any notes on ratios, but it may have only be documented at the hive.

bio · Working Bee

[quote=" but it may have only be documented at the hive.[/quote]

Will you please either post or provide a link to this info!

When searching the Hive archives some weeks ago I was unable to find much usefull information and either missed what you refer to or it is not archived here.

Thanks Very Happy