DEA To Update Watched Chemicals List To Include Sodium Borohydride

[Trivity]

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/16/2023-12893/special-surveillance-list-of-chemicals-products-materials-and-equipment-used-in-the-manufacture-of

Apologies if this is the wrong subforum.

DEA is proposing to update the Special Surveillance List by adding the following laboratory supplies to the existing Special Surveillance List:

Chemicals, including their salts whenever the existence of such salts is possible:

(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzene (1-phenyl-2-nitropropene; P2NP)

1-(4-bromophenyl)propan-1-one

1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one

1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one

1-benzylpiperidin-4-one (

N

-benzyl-4-piperidone)

1-chloro-

N

-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine (chloroephedrine; chloropseudoephedrine)

1-phenylbutan-1-one

1-phenylpentan-1-one

1-phenylpropan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-chlorophenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-methoxyphenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-(4-methylphenyl)propan-1-one

2-bromo-1-phenylpentan-1-one

2-bromo-1-phenylpropan-1-one

3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylic acid (BMK glycidic acid; P2P glycidic acid) and its esters (

e.g.

methyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK methyl glycidate); ethyl 3-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate (BMK ethyl glycidate))

phenethyl bromide ((2-bromoethyl)benzene)

3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoic acid and its esters (

e.g., alpha

-phenylacetoacetic acid; ethyl 3-oxo-2-phenylbutanoate (EAPA))

5-(2-nitroprop-1-en-1-yl)benzodioxole (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-nitropropene; 3,4-MDP2NP)

azobisisobutyronitrile

butane-1,4-diol (1,4-butanediol)

ethyl 3-oxo-4-phenylbutanoate

ethyl-3-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-methyloxirane-2-carboxylate (3,4-MDP-2-P ethyl glycidate)

methyl 2-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-3-oxobutanoate (MAMDPA; MDMAPA)

propionyl chloride

sodium borohydride

sodium triacetoxyborohydride

tert

-butyl 4-((4-fluorophenyl)amino)piperidine-1-carboxylate (

para

-fluoro 1-boc-4-AP)

thioglycolic acid and its esters (

e.g.,

methyl thioglycolate)

[Loki]

What does the Special Surveillance List actually do?

[Trivity]

Chilling effect towards smaller redistributors and online outlets among other things. It de-facto means the feds are holding any redistributor without a crack legal team liable making sale too much of a risk for all but the biggest.

[Nl5xbn]

Interesting, one of the smaller retailers I use in the states claims it'll have no impact on their ability to supply it. 

That said I wonder for how long that will be the case. 

I was also tempted to submit a comment as they're accepting them on this issue.  There are many very legitimate used of reducing agents so it seems like a throwing the baby out with the bath water kind of situation.

Anyone have any thoughts on what impact it'll have on availability?

Also I thought BDO was controlled in the US.  This new register notification seems to say otherwise, does anyone have any clarity with regards to that?

[AustralisAlchemy]

What does the Special Surveillance List actually do?

It makes sure the cucked DEA keeps receiving taxpayer money to piss down the drain

[spice]

They're shooting fish in a barrel already

[justforgear]

To begin, I don't think this will do much in regards to people in the US obtaining any of it. It may effect US distributors primarily. Even then, I don't quite understand it, if a distributor sells a chemical and that chemical is used by this person (unassociated with the company, only a customer) to synth a substance then the distributor gets fined $250k? That doesn't make any sense to me. I figure if distributors mind their "P's and Q's" being liable for what someone does with their chemical is ridiculous. That'd be like charging acetone distributors if it's found in a clandestine lab.

[spice]

You're not American are you?

[blade_runner]

Sad. When the lab is back in action (and explosion proofed) it would be interesting to pursue e.g. DOI 10.1002/aenm.201700299

[Trivity]

To begin, I don't think this will do much in regards to people in the US obtaining any of it. It may effect US distributors primarily. Even then, I don't quite understand it, if a distributor sells a chemical and that chemical is used by this person (unassociated with the company, only a customer) to synth a substance then the distributor gets fined $250k? That doesn't make any sense to me. I figure if distributors mind their "P's and Q's" being liable for what someone does with their chemical is ridiculous. That'd be like charging acetone distributors if it's found in a clandestine lab.

It's not about sense. It's about fear.  They can't completely forbid them from operating but they can nudge them into being so paranoid they can pretend to be doing things.

And no I think you were thinking GBL. Tempted to post a GABA to GHB route around the net wherever possible just to be petulant now.

[Newton2.0]

Huh, this really does just encourage bees to go even more DIY. They will never curtail the flow of these chemicals, as suppliers in China, India and others abroad will simply change labels and go about as nothing happened and no one is the wiser.

Indeed, just a way for the DEA to stay relevant.

[Dexterduck]

thioglycolic acid and its esters eg. Methyl thioglycolate

Does anyone have any info regarding how thioglycolid esters are used in clandestine labs? I've never heard of their use before. Some brief research tells me they are used as reducing agents -given their inexpensive and accessibility, it seems to me it would be an attractive substance to use (despite its smell).

[Loki]

thioglycolic acid and its esters eg. Methyl thioglycolate

Does anyone have any info regarding how thioglycolid esters are used in clandestine labs? I've never heard of their use before. Some brief research tells me they are used as reducing agents -given their inexpensive and accessibility, it seems to me it would be an attractive substance to use (despite its smell).

It's used in methamphetamine resolution with AIBN.

https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/eu-drug-markets/methamphetamine/main-production-methods-europe_en

[Light4daze]

So if sodium borohydride, sodium cyanoborohydride, and sodium triacetoxyborohydride All become to difficult to obtain, what then would you all agree would be a good alternative reducing agent. Besides LAH of course? Any thoughts? Opinions?

[Mrbovinejony]

Titanium isopropxide, libh4, borane in thf or any borane complex really, red-al, sodium on silica, all variations of mercury amalgam. Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it

[big mac]

Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it

There was this chinese patent, the NaBH4 was made from Mg metal and some borax sodium carbonate, water in a ball mill: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=158235

One would have to make a tightly sealed ball mill, that could bee filled with argon though and afterwards wind a way to recrystallise the NaBH4 without hydrolysis. Quite a bit of a hassle and specialised equipment.

[DerAlteSack]

Titanium isopropxide, libh4, borane in thf or any borane complex really, red-al, sodium on silica, all variations of mercury amalgam. Not sure I understand the fuss about nabh4 being watched, the time spent figuring out how to get or make nabh4 could be better spent figuring out how to reduce without it

NaBH4 is generations Z red phosphorus.

[Mrbovinejony]

I actually threw out 20 something grams of red phosphorous the other day, not enough to make any meaningful amount of anything. And still have a buttload of nabh4 from china

[uj74eer]

I actually threw out 20 something grams of red phosphorous the other day, not enough to make any meaningful amount of anything. And still have a buttload of nabh4 from china

You lie! Say it isn't so! You could make a ton of PCl₅ with 20 grams of Red P. Simply make some modifications to your chlorine generator to generate SO₂ instead, direct the dry gas straight into your PCl₅-caked flask, and boom. You made thionyl chloride (and phosphoryl chloride I think).

Hateful stuff, but very very useful.

[Mrbovinejony]

I've been debating turning my pcl5 into thionyl chloride to avoid producing pocl3 when I need things chlorinated. The only reason I have to keep pcl5 is for vilsmeier which I haven't done in months