If you have not had much of either, Hcl is the one you want.

For the past year and a half i took no drugs. Recently all the rolling i have done, i have only ever had citrate. Until tonight i had an ever so tiny dose of hcl.

The winner is - Hcl

so much more potent. I had such a tiny dose, pupils are not dialated but i feel as good as i did on a citrate dose which made my pupils like big shiny black beads

First citrate dose i took was liquid and was huge, i couldnt even see straight, was ok but beyond pleasurable.. the others were at all ranges.. it was good, relaxing, it felt smooth.. couple years ago when i had proper hcl, it was hard hitting, that whole period was a glowing impact on me and i only did a couple big doses.

there isnt alot of euphoria and music is not as heightened with citrate, the beat in dance music doesnt punch as hard.

You need to take huge doses of citrate to get the same as you would get out of small dose of hcl. the difference is, the brain frying.

I believe, with no scientific evidence to back me up, that mdma citrate is alot less neurotoxic than hcl, but you get what you pay for, seratonally speaking....

you wanna roll hard on hcl, then you fry your circuts and your memory for a period after.. Roll on citrate - not as intense and glowing but wont fry your brain. you need a higher dose though, but - there is no depression on citrate. NONE

Hcl does have more "oh shit" moments

If i were about to decide what i want to try, starting out in the mdma world, and not wanting to cook my memory, i would do citrate every second weekend at most and hcl no more than once a month

I think the reason people say citrate is better is becasue it is something different to the norm, and at same dosage seems really smooth in comparison..


Thats my veiw

Ps.. hcl is a shitload more euphoric. Purely for analytical reasons, i will now double check the texture of my hcl cystals. this will have to be lingually as my hands are occupied due to beer and mouse constraints.

Well, tell that the rest of the citrate bioassays

i did take a big citrate dose last night and a small hcl tonight and imo tonight feels better.. i guess more testing is in order. OR other members, who seem to be just lurkers these days can speak up

also, bug romeo, i have done mdma lots of times over the last few weeks, doses of all ranges, all citrate. Tonight i took Hcl, SO dont you think i am in a good position to post the perspective?

you need to do a double blind trial, repeated

even though you are right, the first will always have some advantage over the second unless they are done far apart... The first will be better because of 'memory burn' the glowing exp burnt into ones memory, and false expectations brought on by a memory so often compared to everyday crappy life

I want to make it very clear before people start to question the pros and cons here, that the citrate itself is much much larger per active ingredients then the HCl. If you take an equal W/W of each the HCl will win no doubt however if you base it on the weight of the MDMA moiety then the citrates slowed metabolism should win everytime in theory.

he's saying the citrate salt has less mdma base per mole or weight unit than the hydrochloride so comparison would ideally be done by taking an equivalent amount of base.

I tested equivalent dose of freebase bound to the HCl and Citric acid,including double blinds on myself ad friends and I can confirm that
HCl is indeed more euphoric but comedown is allmost intolerable for me.

I start now with "normal" dose of HCl (let's say 120+60+60mg spaced 1-1,5h) and 100-150mg of citrate salt
as last dose.

All the fun and one quarter of the side effects!
There is definitely something more here than freebase equivalency.

Strange and unexplainable to me (for now) but true!

Its metabolised in a different area of the body then the HCl is. It makes its way deaper into the digestive system before it is neutralized and released. This is the reasoning behind why the Citrate is suppose to be more potant.


Oerlikon you say you tried equal amounts of the citrate/HCl per freebase weight correct, Are you sure you calculated that more then one MDA molecule is attached to the Citric acid.

i don't know about all that frying, all i can say about that is that drugs affect people differently.  i've been taking mdma for many many years and went through a period where i abused it pretty heavily 9 years ago.

Isnt there evidence that chronic MDMA users have shown to have less activity in the part of the brain that affects working memory?

Also seratonin patterns were altered for a long period after and in some cases perminantly...

The following days after that hcl test i definantly feel it was very very different and like someone said, like a different drug alltogether.

my dose tests were done by the size of my pupils and the hcl doses didnt make them huge and the citrate doses did. to be honest i didnt even weigh them

Oerlikon might have it right.. the mix might be the way to go


oh and one more thing.. the hcl is was more embarressing the day after when you check your written messages and think ohhh shit i cant believe i said that!

the citrate is reputedly twice as potent just does'nt give you that impression because of it's slower onset.

it would be a good idea to combine the two.

My explanation would be based on the dissociation constant being different, thus and whilst I can't be bothered to find out how to calculate it for salts, it is obvious that the dissociation constant, and thus acidity is less than for HCl, citric being a weaker acid than hydrochloric, could a better chemist than I, explain what relation the strength of an acid, has on the dissociation constant of a base it salts with?

MDxx is going to be in its uncharged form when it passes the BBB, so slower dissociation from the salt means slower uptake and thus makes for a smoother comeup.

As far as mescaline goes, AFAIK the freebase is strongly alkaline enough to be caustic to tissue, so most definately extrations all get salted, unless perhaps, one is planning some chemical manipulation or measurements on it, but for consumption, it will be a salt.

Shake....what can I say...if you didn't even weigh your doses, then ANY comparison or conclusion you may draw from the trial, is completely and utterly invalid, other than prehaps 'I got high'

I wonder.....why not form the lysine salt, just as big pharma did with lysdexamphetamine (what a name, ey? I wonder if they plan to use it to medicate those who can't spell very well ) the idea was to form a slow-release form of 'phet (and of course extend the time they can milk one of the oldest modern psych drugs going on the patent rights)

Or, for that matter, the napsylate salt. That absorbs VERY slowly, at least, at least, with propoxyphene, they marketed propoxyphene napsylate as being less prone to abuse (as if it was much good for that anyway, its a POTENT sodium channel blocker, more so than lidocaine, and its desalkylated metabolite norpropoxyphene is even more so, and also, an antagonist at (one of) the same subtype(s) of neuronal nicotinic ACh receptor activated by nicotine, the alpha4beta2 type, which leads me to think that its somewhat less prone to abuse, even if it were an opioid of anything but contemptible potency, rather than arrythmogenic, convulsant poisonous muck)

As it was very poorly water soluable, it was unable to be IVed (sheesh..who the fuck would IV propoxyphene...probably the same sort of junky as would IV with water from the cat's bowl, or for that matter, a toilet or dirty puddle if they were out of tap water ) and also it dissociated quite slowly, resulting in lower peak blood concentrations.

So it would make for a less strong intoxication in the case of MDxx (assuming equipotent doses as calculated from the weight of the freebase), but it would be smoother coming up, and longer acting, as well as having a slower onset.

Napsylate is quite a heavy counterion, so the dose must be calculated, as the weight of the parent acid is not insignificant.