Author Topic: Giant MDMA crystals  (Read 3068 times)

951951

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2010, 10:23:37 AM »
If its a racemic mixture (which is more than likely for MDMA) you wont get shit regardless of the method mentioned above. You need to separate the enantiomers first.

Wrong

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS1%281%29/A.Mitchell/racemicview.htm
Quote
For most racemic materials the solid recrystallises either as a racemic mixture[d-crystals & l-crystals] or as a racemic compound[dl-crystals] of which the latter is by far the most common. For those materials which do recrystallise as a racemic mixture, the individual crystal phases usually occur in conglomerates and not as distinct separate crystals.

Quantum Dude

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2010, 08:13:46 PM »
If its a racemic mixture (which is more than likely for MDMA) you wont get shit regardless of the method mentioned above. You need to separate the enantiomers first.

Wrong

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS1%281%29/A.Mitchell/racemicview.htm
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For most racemic materials the solid recrystallises either as a racemic mixture[d-crystals & l-crystals] or as a racemic compound[dl-crystals] of which the latter is by far the most common. For those materials which do recrystallise as a racemic mixture, the individual crystal phases usually occur in conglomerates and not as distinct separate crystals.
Did I ever said that all racemic mixtures didnt crystallized ? Stop being a theoretical chemist and get in the lab youll see that it is not possible to crystallize large crystals of RACEMIC MDMA.

Zeppelin

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2010, 09:11:39 PM »
QD is correct. I can verify from experience

Sedit

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 09:20:49 PM »
Of course QD is correct... Read the fellow quote that says QD is wrong.

Quote
or as a racemic compound(dl-crystals)of which the latter is by far the most common. For those materials which do recrystallise as a racemic mixture, the individual crystal phases usually occur in conglomerates and not as distinct separate crystals.

I highlighted the section proving what QD is stating.
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NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 09:27:19 PM »
QD is correct. I can verify from experience

+1 from experience.  QD is 100% correct, go see for yourself.  if you can't pull off the reactions go buy some tabs that are known to have mdma as the only active compound present.  isolate it from the binders/etc and recrystallize it.  if you get large crystals or shards then what you have is adulterated because racemic mdma will not form large crystals.  period.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 09:33:58 PM by NeilPatrickHarris »

Sedit

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2010, 12:10:04 AM »
WAIT!
I think I see where the misunderstanding has come into play.

The quote states

Quote
For most racemic materials the solid recrystallises either as a racemic mixture[d-crystals & l-crystals] or as a racemic compound[dl-crystals] of which the latter is by far the most common. For those materials which do recrystallise as a racemic mixture, the individual crystal phases usually occur in conglomerates and not as distinct separate crystals.

Notice how they stated the key words mixure and compound. Yes in some rare cases it will more then likely for a MIXTURE of very small D crystals and L crystals but..... the chances of this happening like this are extremely small hence the reason they state the racemic COMPOUND is FAR more common.
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951951

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2010, 02:19:23 AM »
Did I ever said that all racemic mixtures didnt crystallized?

my mistake

Quote from: NeilPatrickHarris
if you have shards of mdma then its adulterated

not quite

racemate MDMA may not form large crystals, but 'shards' or 'rocks' can be made by fusing the hydrochloride (this is how the canadians and dutch produce 'crystal' mdma)

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2010, 01:14:44 PM »
Quote from: NeilPatrickHarris
if you have shards of mdma then its adulterated

not quite

racemate MDMA may not form large crystals, but 'shards' or 'rocks' can be made by fusing the hydrochloride (this is how the canadians and dutch produce 'crystal' mdma)

yeah you're right.  i've seen small crystals fused together although that's not what i would call "shards".  either way, we're getting a little nit-picky by this point

jon

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2010, 06:41:28 PM »
quntum dude sure he's a bit abrasive but he knows what he's talking about.

sassa

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2010, 04:00:42 PM »
About "fusing" the hydrochloride,proved that once with a small amount of puffy hydrochloride,without any solvent,only heating carefully until  the whole product is  totally liquefied.
      Made that because have read on some forums dutch labs makes that because seems that resulting product hit faster and stronger..???,and of course easy treament than puffy hydrochloride,but the consistency it´s not like crystal,It is more like if you were doing chocolate fused in thin sheets. The form in the one that breaks is very similar to this, and not so much to the form in the one that breaks the crystal that it is possible to find in the street, very similar to big chunks of crystallized Nacl.
    I have never proved this fused hydrochloride to confirm his major power or rapidity.
  Serious good to know with certainty which is the predominant method of crystallization that these laboratories use to obtain this consistency. I suppose that it´s related to the recrystallization, but I have never listened to this of anybody with royal information in the matter.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 04:10:03 PM by sassa »

Sedit

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2010, 07:15:08 PM »
   dutch labs makes that because seems that resulting product hit faster and stronger...

Nonsence. This is written by someone with no idea of pharmocology at all and reminds me of the old take at the hive about how meth has to be crystalized or your body wont metabolism it and its inactive in its old form.... Thats nonsence as well.

If I would have to guess the power would allow for faster absorbtion but Im not really sure if it would make enough of a difference to you to tell on way or another.
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marakov

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2010, 08:54:14 PM »
   dutch labs makes that because seems that resulting product hit faster and stronger...

Nonsence. This is written by someone with no idea of pharmocology at all and reminds me of the old take at the hive about how meth has to be crystalized or your body wont metabolism it and its inactive in its old form.... Thats nonsence as well.

If I would have to guess the power would allow for faster absorbtion but Im not really sure if it would make enough of a difference to you to tell on way or another.

They fuse compound to blend inside a mixing agent of different compound and to hide this and to make look like big crystal because of impurity make crystallisation difficult to make large crystal.

rhodopsin

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2010, 10:03:11 PM »
951951 answered my question, essentially.   Big ups the one 951951.   What is the different compound that the dutch use to make their mdma have that apperence?  Anyone know?  Or do they just melt it down in a microwave or similar until it's all liquid then let it reform into shards?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 10:06:48 PM by rhodopsin »

Quantum Dude

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2010, 10:41:40 PM »
quntum dude sure he's a bit abrasive but he knows what he's talking about.

abrasive ? wow...look whos talking

Vesp

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2010, 10:57:42 PM »
Quote
What is the different compound that the dutch use to make their mdma have that apperence?  Anyone know?

That doesn't sound all that chemistry related - it might be though...

Quote
Quote from: jon on June 07, 2010, 11:41:28 AM
quntum dude sure he's a bit abrasive but he knows what he's talking about.

abrasive ? wow...look whos talking

That is funny, but lets try to keep on topic about MDMA crystals.
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overunity33

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2010, 11:42:08 AM »
+1 QD
If you want crystals just big enough to prove its not cut dissolve powder in a minimal amount of dry boiling methanol (cheap) then put a lid on the container and preferably cover the hotplate/container with foil to trap heat and let it cool down slowly.  Racemic or not you should get small "shards" and some powder, dry, chop and sift on a windowscreen, include the fine powder into the next run and repeat.

Im interested in the hcl fusing method, do you just carefully heat the product to its melting point, any tricks to getting the mass to form crystal structure after this?  I have seen these fused shards out of amsterdam before, always tried to understand how the marble sized crystals were made.  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 01:10:41 PM by overunity33 »

jboogie

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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2010, 12:37:28 PM »
i think you guys are looking too hard for a 'chemical process that produces 'rocks' or 'shards' of mdma...

first off, as stated correctly by QD, racemic compounds will not form shards. if you have ever seen MA made from P2P (that has not been resolved via tartric acid), you do not have shards at all. you have 'powder'...

now, the big chunks you are referring to...

these 'big rocks' you see are made for 1 reason and 1 reason only... powders, by their nature, contain space between the xtyls which is filled with air. when importing and exporting illegal drugs, its not advantageous to include this air during the shipping process. this air trapped between the xtyls increases the size of the package, thereby requiring more space to conceal the shipment.

instead of thinking about a chemical process, think mechanical. the raw product is compressed to remove the air... thats all. look at cocaine. its a fine powder before its packaged for shipment, so its pressed into blocks...

even methamphetamine is pressed into bricks for transport...
(im not linking to the DEA site. sorry.. youll just have to bee happy with the cut and paste job)
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EXTREMELY HARD, UNUSUALLY WELL FORMED BRICKS OF HIGH PURITY “ICE” METHAMPHETAMINE IN LAREDO, TEXAS

The DEA South Central Laboratory (Dallas, Texas) recently received 23 plastic-wrapped bricks of white crystalline material, suspected methamphetamine (see Photo 9, next page). The exhibits were seized by U.S. Border Patrol personnel during a routine search at a checkpoint in Laredo, Texas. The bricks were extremely hard, requiring a hammer and chisel to break apart, and were also unusually well formed and unusually shaped (16.5 x 8 x 8 centimeter rectangles with exact, squared-off corners (see attached image)). Analysis of the material (total net mass 22.80 kilograms) by FTIR-ATR, GC/MS, GC/FID and LC/MS confirmed 99.7% d-methamphetamine hydrochloride.

the same process can bee used to make rocks out of anything xtyline and powder like. christ, even sugar can bee made into 'rocks' should you desire. you ever seen a sugar cube?

it has nothing to do with the potency or the way it 'hits you' or the process used to make it, it simply translates into a business decision to maximize profits when shipping compounds that are usually not legal. even weed is pressed into 'rocks' when its beeing transported across the border. you ever get any fluffy chronic shipped in from mexico? thats right, no you dont... and now you know why.

WazOne

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2011, 01:49:05 AM »
have seen crystal dl-mda hcl and its crystal size is no bigger than raw sugar crystals.
that was sitting for 10days in a dish. Maybe if done in a shot glass it might of formed a ROCK but only of raw sugar sized crystals sitting on one another.

psychexplorer

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2011, 03:21:17 AM »
The irony of this is that the quest for crystal size is usually spawned out of desire of a better product, when in the case of MDMA, the cost of the crystal size may be an unpleasant surprise for the user.

That d-meth shown above is highly pure and highly valuable. l-meth would be worthless unless one were making OTC respiratory inhalers. The l- has a bit of a body load, but is not generally considered a psychoactive contaminant. Thus, the cooks and bikers of days past, and their racemic product derived from P2P, have been outdone by the shake and bake tweakers producing nearly pure d- from psuedoephedrine. Without resolution, P2P derivatives cannot be more than 50% pure with respect to the psychoactive d-.

That other 50% was not a problem because it had no psychoactive effect. It might as well have been any other cut.

MDMA is different. Both enantiomers are psychoactive but with different profiles.

MDMA is also chiral. One enantiomer is significantly more potent but excreted significantly faster than the other.

MDMA is also highly dose dependent, in both effect and duration.

We still don't understand the intricacies of each compound, so they can't simply be adjusted with a potency factor. There exists a distinct possibility of differing effect profiles due to differing receptor affinities of each stereospecific compound.

By resolving the compound to facilitate better crystallization, you are fundamentally changing the nature of the experience, either towards higher potency and shorter duration, or lower potency and longer duration, per mg pure MDMA.

This isn't a problem for an educated explorer sampling his own with low initial doses and working his way up.

This is a highly irresponsible thing to do for your stated goal of "bag appeal" alone. Any user who isn't a chemist probably has no clue of the basic concept of chirality, let alone MDMA specific concerns. They're going to select an intensity and a duration, then consume a given mass, based on dosing instructions or history assuming the racemic form.

If a user were used to your formulation of the less potent stereoisomer, what happens when the other half of the batch makes it into circulation? Now you have someone dosing the more potent stereoisomer as though it were the less potent.

Even if the stereospecific formulations were measured into gelcaps, letting them spread would be highly irresponsible as users might end up eyeballing it or uncapping it to take a mass-based dose using the racemate as a guide, not knowing the product is not racemic.

For all intents and purposes, stereospecific formulations should be considered entirely different substances, analogous to analogs.

This discussion seems to have veered close to a rule violation, but it needs to be said in the interest of harm reduction.

If anyone has any good information on stereospecific doses, it would be much appreciated.

NeilPatrickHarris

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Re: Giant MDMA crystals
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 05:47:18 AM »
i've seen MDA HCl form little glassy shards when recrystallized from EtOH.  they were tiny though and clustered together, about half the size of your fingernail in length.  it looked like DMT actually.

If anyone has any good information on stereospecific doses, it would be much appreciated.

Shulgin has some info in the MDMA entry of PIHKAL but i'm sure everyone here has read that several times.  here's something that was taken from hyperlab, thanks to shroomedalice for posting it up over at WD:

Quote from: FallenAngel
2,00 g (10mmol, assuming 95% purity in the Islands) distilled MDMA
0.75 g (5mmol) D-tartaric acid
3ml H2O
6ml xylene (which turned out to be handy)
A solution of NaOH, equivalent to 0.2 g (5mmol) NaOH.
! Not use solid NaOH! Only solution! Hard has a different concentration of active ingredient and water, that a very strong impact on the results of separation: if the D-isomer is allocated fairly well, but a net L-isomer is unlikely to succeed. The easiest way to prepare the solution - dissolve a handful of alkali in the glass Dist. water, cooled to room temperature, weighed in a volumetric flask, calculate the density and concentration. Well or titrirovat - who like more.
And then weigh the required amount of solution.

After mixing the reagents, a lot of shake up and leave for a day. Xylene solution of L-MDMA separate, additional water rinse xylene. To add the excess xylene halophytes and leave to evaporate, first in the air to the evaporation of xylene, and then in a desiccator over NaOH. Obtain 1,05 g caramels. Rub the several times with acetone, ignoring the losses and obtain 0,6 g R (-) MDMA (L-MDMA).
An aqueous solution of D-MDMA alkalizes twice ekstragiruem, add soup and dried. Obtain 1,1 g of crystalline S (+) MDMA (D-MDMA).

Biotest

D-MDMA
T. 0:00 Took 70mg with a small amount of soup.
T. 0:40 Start of.
T. 0:50 come to the fore stimulation.
T. 1:10 feeling that he missed a dose. Added 20-25mg for the full manifestation of effects.
T. 1:30 substance differs radically from the DL-MDMA: strong stimulation and extremely clear head. Effects are serious, in vain, I added those 25mg.
T. 1:40 came 25mg. The state, characteristic of a large release of dopamine and serotonin: a strong stimulation, a great mood, but begin to appear pobochki - tugging and spasms of smooth muscles of the abdomen.
In contrast to the racemate, the head completely clear, there is little euphoria, empathy weak to feel it, we must listen to yourself. No smearing. +2 On Shulgin, not more.
Difficult to say, I like this state or not. There is something of a racemate, but not all, obviously something is missing. Perhaps a similar state can be obtained simultaneously Having eaten his fill of fluoxetine stimulants.
T. 5:00 Took fluoxetine.
The next day, no abnormalities were noticed, though, after the racemate observed a small tail.

L-MDMA
T. 0:00 Took 110mg with a small amount of food.
T. 0:40 Start of.
T. 1:00 Wow, this is quite psychedelic.
T. 1:30 Everything seems magical, the head bad-thinking, highly smears, get on its feet is not realistic, but the euphoria and empathy non-existent. +3 To Shulgin. It seems that he missed a dose - too much, I had to try 50-70mg.
T. 2:30 Not comfortable feeling that I was deceived - wrapping the same, but different content.
T. 5:00 Took fluoxetine.
The next day, terrible headache, the effect remained at 1. The tail of admission to the islands stretched nearly a week.


So (IMHO):
1. Ecstasy should be viewed as a mixture of two substances, and the only way - a stimulant-serotoninrealizera and psychedelia, albeit resulting in one bottle. Therefore, it is possible to find close analogues of MDMA, mixing two or three surfactants.
2. The magic of MDMA, entaktogennye properties and largely euphoria due to the combined action of both isomers. This D-MDMA is responsible for the stimulation, the selection of serotonin and empathy, L-MDMA for psychedelic component and mazhuschee action. Entaktogennyemi properties and magic neither one nor the other isomer individually do not possess.
3. Selective extraction works great, if it correctly carried out.
4. Obviously, the most interesting: unpretentious protsedurka separation of isomers - 10 minutes, and ready - allows to increase the amount of matter in three times - D, L, DL.
Since each isomer has its unique action, then outlines the prospects are very interesting, for example, try to separate isomers of PMMA - I guarantee that there will be three completely different drug. What is the scope for research! Consider, gentlemen?