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Author Topic: Methylamine Gas generator*  (Read 336 times)

Shake

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Methylamine Gas generator*
« on: April 03, 2011, 02:56:12 AM »
Ok guys here is something that i have had on my mind and im sure a few of you guys have at some stage aswell. this is coming from basic experience and observation and hopefully you can see why this is in my mind.

When you freebase methylamine HCL it changes from its salt phase to a gas right, by dropping naoh onto methylamine hcl in a gas generator

When you run an al/hg amalgam using nitro to completion, you basify it with dilute naoh solution, at which point it really stinks up the place this is the same stinky methylamine smell is it not?

I would like to know why, a large sealable vessel, which has a pressure guage and a fitting attached so it can be used as a gasser, drying canister attached on the line

Add in aluminum dust, or alfoil balls or shavings, then add in 500mls nitromethane and add a litre and a half of meoh just so there is liquid there to get it mixing.. Now adding hgcl2 to this mix, im not sure how fast it would start reacting but i assume quite slow to begin with as the al has break down a bit before anything starts reacting

Then run that in basic conditions so add a hundred grams naoh in with the mix, seal it and let the reaction happen, if you threw in some marbles to help agitate things as you swirl the canister for a few hours. The pressure will build up, at whichever point the nitro is reduced to methylamine, it would instantly turn into a gas due to the basic conditions would it not?

after the rxn has completed the pressure should be quite high and ready to release pressure, but what would the gas be?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 08:51:54 AM by Shake »

psychexplorer

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 03:04:22 AM »
Well, if odor is the issue, then you have to plan for dealing with MeAm(g) regardless of how the reaction is run, because the MeAm is always going to be in heavy molar excess to whatever more valuable compound it is reacting with.

A gas generator would be a good way of controlling it on the setup end of the reaction, but there is still the problem of unreacted MeAm. I'm thinking the problem could be solved by taking it gas generator -> reaction vessel -> HCl(aq) scrubber using the suction on the fume hood. With the leftover MeAm now in solution in a Rubbermaid-style scrubber unit, the liquid could be easily sent down the drain.

jon

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 03:10:52 AM »
or you could just run it down the drain with an asspirator.
that's easier.

Shake

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 03:27:01 AM »
run what down the drain? im not worried about fumes, i am talking about making methylamine gas from nitromethane in a sealed canister. the sludge in the cannister can stay in it at the bottom.. the methylamine gas generated could be used to gas chilled isopropyl

i mention the fumes from adding naoh to post rxn mud realeases strong fumes, ie methylamine gas?

then below that is a vessel that is just nitro meoh al and hg - Add in 100g naoh to turn the methylamine into a gas as soon as it forms..
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:32:23 AM by Shake »

lugh

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 03:48:01 AM »
It's methylamine, more information can be found at:

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=11258

 8)
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Shake

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 03:50:56 AM »
so it would work lugh?


i cant get in there im not a member..

lugh

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 03:57:53 AM »
Registration has been reopened, another relevant thread:

https://the-collective.ws/forum/index.php?topic=21882

 8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

Shake

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 04:15:52 AM »
Ha! i knew i was onto something... cheers

but still doesn't answer my question directly.. from what i can tell it would work.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 04:39:21 AM by Shake »

Bluebottle

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2011, 05:15:41 AM »
If the Hg only there to circumvent the passivating layer, and isn't especially catalytic, then might not the NaOH dissolve that away by itself?
"And now we divide both sides by zero..."

Shake

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 05:24:59 AM »
What would be the point of adding it dropwise? we are not reacting it with mdp2p we are just reducing nitro so i think it would be ok to have an excess of nitro already in the solution with the meoh.. as the hgcl2 breaks down the al it reacts instantly with the abundant nitro molecules.. reducing it to methylamine, which due to the basic conditions would be instantly given off as a gas

i think the nitro al hg reduction works because methylamine is produced in situ but im not sure the liquid methylamine produced stays as methylamine for long or reacts with other things in the mix, which is why having it become a gas instantly would throw it off rather than leave it to continue to react

no naoh alone doesnt do much at all..

methylamine disolves in alcohols so maybe having no meoh in there at all might be better, just straight nitro hgcl2 and al dust and naoh .. if you were careful, one could run this in one of those pressurised weed spraying containers, 10 bucks from the hardware, as the pressure builds up, gass it, and so on
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 05:31:01 AM by Shake »

jon

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 05:29:41 AM »
naoh aluminum water produces sodium aluminate and hydrogen gas so yes it will reduce the nitro compound and give off a shitload of heat and react like a volcano erupting.
the heat will drive off moisture and i could only imagine the foam given off.
it would be one hell of a mess.

akcom

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 05:33:48 AM »
The presence of the Hg is necessary, it is the species that ultimately reduces the imine.  You need to drip in the nitro because the reduction of nitromethane is VERY exothermic.  That's why a ketone/MeNO2 reduction runs so much hotter than the same ketone/MeNH2 reduction.

Bluebottle

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 05:38:16 AM »
Thanks. I forgot about the heat and hydrogen from Al and water - reducing a nitro must be something!
"And now we divide both sides by zero..."

jon

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Re: Methylamine Gas genarator
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2011, 06:25:02 AM »
no the mercury could plate out on the tank i could be wrong
and akcom:
mix up some aluminum filings sodium hydroxide and sodium nitrate it's an analagous reaction.
it produces ammonia.
you don't need mercury amalgums to reduce aliphatic nitro compounds the nascent hydrogen produced from sodium hydroxide on aluminum will do the same thing.
the reaction will be more violent however.
there are other ways to do this iron filing and hydrocloric acid for example but it all runs very hot i would watch the rate off addition and keep a bucket of ice water handy in case of runaways.
it could get ugly.

Shake

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2011, 10:31:13 AM »
Akcom i know you are keeping quiet here because i have read your posts from science madness, you and overtunity33 both..

You were reacting gallium if i remember correctly..

akcom

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 01:57:23 PM »
I never used gallium, in fact I thought it was a complete hassle compared to the numerous other options.

atara

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2011, 01:40:57 AM »
The aluminium chlorohydrate in deodorant is an aluminium (III) complex; it's already done all the reducing it can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_chlorohydrate

psychexplorer

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2011, 03:04:00 AM »
Quote from: Shake on April 03, 2011, 06:31:52 AM
i have always wondered about what could be done with the aluminum from deodorant

Not much. It isn't useful like elemental aluminum or an aluminum halide.

lugh

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2011, 03:06:54 AM »
The Hell's Angels used to make meth from p2p via the al-hg in 55 gallon drums in mountain streams in California  8)
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lugh

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Re: Methylamine Gas generator*
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 02:26:30 PM »
A lot of relevant and very easily found information that seems to have escaped the attention of the original poster of this thread:

h**ps://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Methylamine

which states that the flash point is eight degrees Celsius  ;)  In more simple terms, methylamine gas is flammable   :P  This is very dangerous business for those that aren't properly prepared  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond
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