Chemistry students used to be required to learn how to do their own research in the library, but now they seem to prefer posting their questions on the internet instead of opening up a book    These compounds are quite dangerous to humans, many deaths have resulted from people doing them    The synthesis is freely available online since it was published in Organic Syntheses long ago, thus it's attached    A review was published in JCE 28 524-6 (1951) DOI: 10.1021/ed028p524 which isn't freely available anymore 

Barbiturates can be synthetisised in many ways, i have done just a little research yet, and i know not to do this right now before im educated enough,but

Im intrested in the method described in 'the history of barbiturates' witch can be googled.

the method shows combining urea and malonic acid in condensation reaction to form barbituric acid.Also the wikipedia in my language shows method of making barbitural by combining silver salt of malonic acid to ethyl jodide

the main reason im doing with this reaction instead of using chloroacetic acid way is that i have acces to malonic acid

i also read the links supplied by you guys and the were helpful, but the chemistry of synthetic drugs doesnt allow me to 'full acces'

where could i find info on synthesis that  Fischer and von Mering did?

im intrested in this because i obviously want barbiturates, but im also intrested in the historical synthesis.

barbituric acid isnt a drug, but what i have read it can easily be made in to a one

thanks for all the help

Deleted in the interest of harm reduction. Jon this fellow don't know chemistry from his penis, please lets not give him anymore bad ideas.

~Sedit

hey utfse more and look this great book page 1001
http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/vogel_practical_ochem_3.pdf

I don't see any esterification occurring, and the alkyl halides would probably alkylate the imide. Diethyl 2,2-diethylmalonate is the appropriate precursor, which could be synthesized in a similar manner to what you suggested.

So, i think i now have DEM

I read rhodium's guide and i'd like to get help on this part '(18 kilos of clean sodium metal in 270 liters of dry ethanol)'

I dont have sodium, but its common knowledge that sodium ethoxide can be made by NaOH + EtOH, so can i just replace the sodium with same molar amount of sodium hydroxide?

You need an alkylated variation of Diethyl malonate to form the compound your trying to get else you are going to make Barbituric acid which as already stated to you is without use.

You will need to push the equilibrium to the right to make an Ethoxide solution using NaOH and EtOH and since Im sure your NEXT question will be "how do I do that" look into mol sieves or azeotropic distillation.

Some information on barbital itself, which ye olde one has personal experience with:

It can be prepared in two forms. The free 5,5-diethylbarbituric acid, this is very poorly soluable in H2O, and as a salt, such as 5,5-diethylbarbiturate sodium. The salts are water soluable. Injection is highly risky if attempted, toady has never used it this way however. Highly alkaline, and will cause severe chemical burns if injected intravenously and the vein is missed.

An overdose will kill with a barbiturate, highly unlikely with a benzo, since with the latter the body can reduce GABA release to compensate to a good degree. Barbs gate the GABAa chloride channel more directly and actually induce ion flux themselves which cannot be compensated in this manner. 

Veronal (5,5-diethylbarbituric acid) was the first barb used clinically, it is long acting although from what I know, of lesser duration than phenobarb, which is still used today, one of the very few barbs that is in clinical use other than as a surgical anaesthetic, as the ultrashort and short acting barbiturates are (used for induction of a general)

Oral use of the free acid was Toady's method of administration...and it got him in the end. Nearly killed ye olde one. Euphoric. significant ataxia produced by any other than a minimal dose, a real wallbanger of a sedative drug. Unlike benzos, and other nonbarbiturate drugs, barbs inhibit AMPA type glutamate receptors, locking the glutamate-bound receptor into a closed, desensitised state, seemingly, his conclusion is, trapping the barb ligand in the receptor, 300 second washout period in a patch clamp study of AMPA receptors reduced maximal inhibition of AMPA calcium current by only somewhere like 20ish percent.

AMPA receptors are involved in longterm potentiation, the way in which 'cells that fire together, wire together' strengthening important, used synaptic connections and allowing others to weaken. LTP is vital for hippocampus-dependent learning and memory consolidation, and barbs are, as such, highly amnestic, and take a real shit on memory and cognitive awareness.

Increasing tolerance to barbiturates, including veronal occurs to the sedative effect, but unlike most drugs, such as opiates, lethal dose does not. A heroin user can build a tolerance, and then become dependent, with until it levels out at a general high dose, ever increases, and the user of opiates can then take a dose which would kill an opioid naiive user manyfold times over and just get high, or negate withdrawal. Do that with barbs, and tolerance just pushes up to desired effects, and then tips over the edge, and a lethal dose is reached.

Physical depdendence is incredibly severe. Makes opiate withdrawal look like actual entertainment, and benzo or GBL withdrawal look fairly insignificant in comparison. Incapacitating and quite easily fatal. Severe, very protracted alcohol withdrawal with DTs perhaps bears the most similarity out of the GABAa agonist depressants, to barb withdrawal.

Nothing wrong, with very careful, responsible dosing to try these drugs, they ARE euphoric, but if one fucks with them, and does not proceed with great responsibility, they will kill you no questions asked and without any difficulty in doing so. Simple as that. MESS AROUND, AND DIE.


Consume no other depressants, alcohol included with barbs, take into account the long acting ones can build up due to long half life in the body and result in a greater dose than was expected, this again can be one of the ways they can kill an unwary user. Bee very aware of their propensity both to impair memory and judgement, and to cause physical incoordination. Certainly do NOT drive.

Advice is, if synthesis is pursued, to prepare and thus have available only a small quantity. Having a larger one around makes it way too possible and too easy to abuse, and kill yourself.

I have tried to give a good lowdown on barbs generally....and I asked Toady to kindly desist from pulling the arms off incautious cave explorers for amusement and a chewy, meaty high protein snack, for a moment, to advise me with his own PERSONAL experience, of barbital itself.

To the OP......He is not joking when he says that tolerance to barbiturates sedative, antianxiety and euphoriant effects develops with frequent use, one needs more, and more to attain the same effect, that happens with most drugs.

With barbs, that happens, but the dosage required to KILL THE TOLERANT USER DOES NOT CHANGE WITH THE TOLERANCE INCREASE TO THE DESIRABLE EFFECTS.

Do not inject it, if you prepare a pure product, absofuckinglutely do not do it. As Ye Olde Unspeakable Amphibian Thinge told you...and you should listen to him, he knows, if injected, the soluable forms of barbiturates, the alkali metal salts, are highly basic, if you miss the shot, it will burn and destroy tissue, and the vein you missed while its at it, if you aren't lucky.

Oral use only, is advised. If you don't know what the hells shitreeking bastard jesus fuck teeth you are doing with barbs, through a lot of research and reading, not spoonfeeding with individual facts, but reading, and learning for yourself, if you mess with barbiturates, you will very likely end up either an addict, or a corpse. Probably both, in that order, usually.

This particular amphibian 5-MeO-DMT source that slowly skins alive with a rusty cheese-grater, any clueless hippy that tries to squeeze his venom glands, DID have himself a bunch of the very same barb you seek, barbital. 5,5-diethylbarbituric acid. Over an ounce of bio-research/genetics lab grade powder, in which field it is used as a PH buffer. He used it, liked it, then started using it to self-medicate a then-un-aided problem with physical overloading and overstimulation. Oh yes, it worked. It fucking worked alright. You don't feel a damn thing on barbs, only numb, and fucked out of your face.

Then it happened. Predictable enough, but not for someone who has their AMPA receptor-mediated fast excitatory glutamatergic neurotransmission system more blocked up than a copper's neck-mounted faecal storage/dispenser unit, and thus a profound mental dullness and inability to process logic and think rationally. Barbs, if abused, and indeed if not used with the greatest care, will not only enslave your body, but unlike the other such drugs, bind your mind also. So one will not even remember, or know that soon, not sooner or later, soon, the barbiturate of choice will reach that dosage level dictated to the physically dependent addict where tolerance to the dose required to maintain a lack of about the worst withdrawal syndrome of them all, is greater than the dosage required to kill the user, and you end up pulling a fucking bluey.

Get that into your head?

Oh, and as far as synthesising barbituric acid goes...that is not going to get you an active drug, nor is the water-soluable sodium barbiturate salt (I.e the sodium salt of unsubstituted barbituric acid), inactive. Could be used as a PH buffer in some uses, but not as a central nervous system depressant. Only barbituric acid derivatives bearing a 5,5-disubstitution pattern are going to be active.

And remember, I am going to repeat the wise words of the Olde Toad. Barbital, 5,5-diethylbarbiturate, the result of using diethylmalonate in this synthesis, going by the trade name of veronal, although long, long since vanished from modern medical arsenals, is a long acting barbiturate, it is slow to act also, which can lead, especially in a partially intoxicated user as it begins to act and also impair judgement, to think they are not feeling it, and to take more. And more, and then again, possibly.

This can easily lead to overdose and ending up either in hospital, withdrawing, with two coppers present after some prick paramedic grasses the user up, in DTs, withdrawing, thinking one has been kidnapped, and trying to slash the throat of said filth using an
field-improvised blade made from a torn metal soft drink can. Or alternatively, just leading to somebody, be it family, the woman one loves, or your cat, pawing miserably at one's cold, lifeless carcass.

The half life of barbital is a little over 30 hours. Not just slow onset of action, but extremely slow excretion. It stays in the body for a long time. The general rule of thumb is that after around 6 half lives, a drug is, short of a few percent of initial dose, all but gone from the body. Not true for all substances, but a very general guide rule of thumb that us pharmacology buggers use. Ye Olde One challenges you to work out the following...and if you cannot, he suggests to sedit that he locks this thread, with a final warning as to what WILL happen, if you produce a large amount of a barbiturate, and proceed to piss around with it.

Calculate the following, assuming the for the sake of theory, that the rule of 6 half lives is statistically the exact number required for a person, having taken one dose of barbital, with, for the sake of providing a fixed numerical figure as an answer, and that the half life of barbital is as wikipedia lists it to be-30.3 hours +-3.2 hours. Lets make it an even figure, and call it 30 hours.

500mg of barbital, a not excessive starting dose of the drug is taken by a user, with no kidney, liver impairments and no other complicating metabolic factors on the first day of use. How many hours, extending if applicable, to days, does it take for that 500mg to be pissed away?

And then, same user, instead of a single dose of 500mg, a second dose, of again a half gram is taken on exactly the same time the following day. How much is in his system, again, assuming the 6 half life guideline to be numerically accurate and exact and the half life rounded down to the simple 30 hours?

If you can't work things like this out, and you do not have, if this is the case, an accurate scale, one that is fairly low in resolution and weighs down to 100mg is ok really for dosing barbital itself, given the dose is fairly large, on a weight basis for a given level of effect (read wikipedia article for that information, doublecheck via search engines until certain that figure on wiki is backed up properly with more references to the same dosing range before proceeding,), one can weigh larger amounts than 100mg (which would be a fucking miniscule dosage of barbital, on a per weight basis), of the water soluable sodium salt, dissolve this in fruit juice, or something similar (do not use alcohol!!!! depressants on top of other depressants is a dangerous thing to do, with benzos, one can indeed, if not aiming to get fucked up, but just to potentiate the benzo dose, using a smaller dose of benzo, and a little alcohol, coming to know one's limits, increase the effect, carefully this way.

With a barb, it is extremely fucking well dangerous, alcohol does NOT mix. Often it works as a fine solvent for volumetric dilution after weighing a compound, to give a storable solution, but it is just too dangerous to add alcohol to a barbiturate, to use it as a solvent for dilution, other than for purification, recrystallization, etc., when not intended for actual ingestion in that solution.

Boiled water, to exclude microorganisms, for storage, prepare small amounts only at a time, with a scale that is as poor as 100mg resolution, weigh a few grams at a time, add to the freshly boiled, now cooled water, label it with the concentration per say, 10ml of H20, and add to something acidic, to neutralise excess alkalinity, such as fresh fruit juice before dosing.

And you claim barbiturate sodium itself is active as a depressant? I am strongly under the impression that the case is, that only the 5,5-disubstituted barbiturates were active. At least, at GABAa receptors...hell knows about Na-barbiturate and AMPA, glycine, nicotinic ACh receptors, or other group I and II metal ion-selective ionotropic receptors, barbs are a bit whorish really in terms of pharmacology.

Do provide some references here.
And for those that would slip something like this into a girl's drink...those 'people' are ones that should Toady ever encounter one either in the act, or known to have done so, they will have both their legs broken, duck tape stuck over their mouths, hands taped behind their backs in the most painful position Toady can muster, dragged off and raped with a splintery, dirty old piece of wood until their arse bleeds them out dry.

And BTW....ignore jon. And jon...do zip it, if you are thinking of giving 'advice' like that, to newbees. Its one thing making an error in a discussion about a synthesis, and it going wrong. But directly advising people to knock back the booze with barbs? you are an established member here. What the fuck do you think you are fucking doing?

Just close the thread, the synthesis just sounded easy at first, but the more i read about it the more complicated it seems to be.

Im going to push back on the schedule of my synthesis for a few months atleast

edit. Im just going to give up, it sounded fun at first, but if its really so dangerous,im willing to call quits.

This is a wise move, its not so much a difficult synthesis given the correct materials but my main worry is dosing of a relatively hazardest drug which can and has killed many. Benzodiazepines where released as a safer material then barbs for a good reason. Benzos will more or less deplete a neurotransmitter where as barbs can mimic it meaning that even after the damage is done an GABA is all out you still are holding the receptors open.