Author Topic: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?  (Read 589 times)

Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2009, 07:04:49 AM »
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 07:08:13 AM by Naf1 »

Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2009, 07:17:52 AM »
Low pH promotes Pictet-Spengler reaction, absence of acid favours intermolecular Mannich reaction!

(sorry for double posting)

The ref that timcube posted say pH 1, typical conditions for pictet-spengler.

The pics for the ring closure that zz is talking about at wiki, shows clearly that a H+ is needed!!!



detailed mechanism;

« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 07:24:33 AM by Naf1 »

timecube

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2009, 09:00:18 AM »
Quote from: Vesp
Tryptophans: Diastereocontrolled reaction

Yeah, I saw that too, but it was under a general heading about performing reactions with aldehydes other than formaldehyde, so I didn't want to assume it would cyclicize with formaldehyde until I could find other references.


Quote from: Naf1
Low pH promotes Pictet-Spengler reaction, absence of acid favours intermolecular Mannich reaction!

...
The ref that timcube posted say pH 1, typical conditions for pictet-spengler.


The second reference you listed confirms that low pH causes ring closure, but it doesn't look like it has to be all that low..

Quote from: Advances in Heterocyclic Chemistry, p.87
In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamin derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid, ring closure appears to be favored at pH < 7, but pH cannot be the only controlling factor.

It then lists a case where even in high pH conditions ring closure sometimes occurs, then gets to tryptophan

Quote from: Advances in Heterocyclic Chemistry, p.87-88
It is noteworthy that the condensation of tryptophan with formaldehyde is the only instance in which a cyclicized product may be obtained not only in the presence of acid but also under alkaline conditions.

So it sounds like tryptophan may be out either way, unless someone in their references has found conditions where it will work (I haven't had a chance to look through them all yet.)

As for tryptamine, if it can be made to work properly in alkaline conditions, I don't see how those conditions are achieved since the Eschweiler-Clarke generally requires formic acid or oxalic acid in the newer technique.  Again, I'll try to go through their references to see if they contain any novel solutions.

Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2009, 11:10:41 PM »
The whole quote from 'Advances in heterocylic chemistry'

"In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamine derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid, ring closure appears to be favored at pH < 7, but pH connot be the only controlling factor. An instance of ring closure, followed by formylation at pyr-N of the resulting tetrahydro-b-carboline, has also been reported under Eschweiler conditions.Related to this is the finding that in a reaction mixture containing tryptamine, formaldehyde and b-keto-ester.  1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline is formed in the presence of acid, but in the absence of acid an intermolecular Mannich reaction, yielding a tryptamine derivative, takes place preferentially."

The next paragraph details formaldehyde/ tryptophan reactions, which dont concern us.

The quote to pay attention to is this one;

"reaction mixture containing tryptamine, formaldehyde and b-keto-ester"

b-keto-ester = ester of formic acid!

The quote;

"Related to this is the finding that in a reaction mixture containing tryptamine, formaldehyde and b-keto-ester.  1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline is formed in the presence of acid, but in the absence of acid an intermolecular Mannich reaction, yielding a tryptamine derivative, takes place preferentially."


A mannich reaction is the standard mechanism for N-methylation of amines / amino acids with formaldehyde. The first step of Eschweiler methylation is iminium formation which uses the Mannich mechanism. Mannich reaction will yield N-substituted products!!!!!

Now direct quote from the patent;

"The procedure used in Example 25 is carried out to provide the corresponding tryptamine derivatives, and the products are then isolated by extraction into a suitable organic solvent, such as dichloromethane, ethyl acetate or a dialkyl ether. The solvent is removed and the products are reacted with aqueous formaldehyde or a formaldehyde equivalent, such as paraformaldehyde, and a reducing agent, such as formic acid or sodium cyanoborohydride, to give N,N-dimethyltryptamine derivatives of formula I wherein X is hydrogen, R 1 N(CH 3 ) 2 and R 2 to R 5 are as set forth above. "



« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:17:41 PM by Naf1 »

Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2009, 12:21:31 AM »
If this is about formaldehyde reacting with tryptamines via Pictet-Spengler because apparently it cant do anything else, and has nothing to do with formic acids ability to form hydride. Then check Rhodiums page about N,N-dimethylation of tryptamine, posted by KrZ;

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2dmt.html

note; notice in the link above methanol is used for tryptamine also, probably for its solvent properties and is slightly basic, avoiding the dreaded Pictet-Spengler conditions. ;)

I was given a link to the SM thread on this, and I dont know Organometalic (but he is right). Large excess of formic acid with tryptamines so as to have enough hydride to be a suitable reductant. Cause as we all know, deprotonated formic acid splits into hydride and CO2, wherefore it works as a reducing agent. In the mechanism posted above for ring closure H+ is needed, but we are now supplying H-. The hydride acts as a Lewis base and the reaction is pushed towards Mannich conditions. Obviously formic acid is not as vigourous producing hydride as say cyanoborhydride or borohydride (which this reaction works with aswell btw). But a large excess of oxalic acid and making sure it has melted before proceeding, viola.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 12:27:26 AM by Naf1 »

zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2009, 11:11:03 AM »
Quote
In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamine derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid, ring closure appears to be favored at pH < 7, but pH connot be the only controlling factor. An instance of ring closure, followed by formylation at pyr-N of the resulting tetrahydro-b-carboline, has also been reported under Eschweiler conditions.Related to this is the finding that in a reaction mixture containing tryptamine, formaldehyde and b-keto-ester.  1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline is formed in the presence of acid, but in the absence of acid an intermolecular Mannich reaction, yielding a tryptamine derivative, takes place preferentially.

B-ketoester should be something like R-CO-CH2-COOR, but surely not formic acid ester.  It was probably used as another mannich base to make  Ind-CH2-CH2-NH-CH2-CH(COR)COOR' (let it be "A"), but in acidic medium the main reaction was a ring closure. And in non-acidic conditions formation of A was preferential.  I mean they did not use formic acid at all, and it was not a methylation reaction.
 
Quote
Cause as we all know, deprotonated formic acid splits into hydride and CO2, wherefore it works as a reducing agent. In the mechanism posted above for ring closure H+ is needed, but we are now supplying H-
Formiate anion is indeed the source of hydride, but i suppose sodium formiate can not be used as a reducing agent in E-C instead of formic acid. Because imine should also be protonated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschweiler-Clarke_reaction  The only case when we can at the same time have formiate anion and protonated imine, is when the reagent is formic acid

As for that Organnimetallic, this was that thread at SM
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=11092
Nicodem's verdict was short : "You read too much fiction.  Try reading scientific papers instead." That is his usual style though.
The thoughts about excess of formic acid would increase the percent of E-C product are somewhat correct, but still an intramolecullar reaction of P-S is much faster then E-C, the excesses of 5-7 times are not sufficient. 10 times? 1000? The possible concentration of formic acid in solution must be limited(100%:), and equation of reaction rate contains only concentrations, not excesses. Thats why after some concentration the reaction can be considered as a first-order reaction, depending only on concentration of protonated triptamine's imine. As well as P-S. Just compare their kinetic constants(they are not avaliable though), devide on molarity of pure formic acid and you can estimate, what maximum yield of dialkyltriptamine you should expect. I think it will be trace

« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 11:41:03 AM by zz-zhuchila »
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Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2009, 01:35:02 AM »
Quote from the patent here!
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=M3GIAAAAEBAJ&dq=tryptamine+formic+paraformaldehyde

"The solvent is removed and the products are reacted with aqueous formaldehyde or a formaldehyde equivalent, such as paraformaldehyde, and a reducing agent, such as formic acid or sodium cyanoborohydride, to give N,N-dimethyltryptamine derivatives of formula I wherein X is hydrogen, R 1 N(CH 3 ) 2 and R 2 to R 5 are as set forth above."

A bee by the name of Rhodium wrote this regarding N,N-dimethylation of Tryptamine with formaldehyde and cyanoborohydride and why it is favored over borohydride;

"Note by Rhodium: The Pictet-Spengler side-reaction occurs whenever a reductive amination of Tryptamine is performed under acidic conditions (such as HCOOH/HCHO methylation), the reason sodium borohydride usually is disfavored is because it is powerful enough to reduce the formaldehyde to methanol before it has any chance to react with the tryptamine (unless suitable measures are taken to prevent this from happening)."

from here!!
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2dmt.html

So the Pictet-Spengler is not some secret that no one knows about, and what I am proposing is not revolutionary at all! The above link is over 15 years old!!!! Formic acid is the only change and because it is also a reductant by virtue of the fact it is also hydride source just like cyanoborohydride or borohydride, not to as great an extent but still a hydride source never the less. If you still think it is revolutionary check the references on rhodiums page dated 1993. Also if 80%+ yields of N,N-dimethylated tryptamine are traces then wow!

Abstract from the paper on N-methylation with paraformaldehyde and oxalic acid;

"Primary and secondary amines are N-methylated by a mixture
of paraformaldehyde and oxalic acid dihydrate in good to
excellent yields. The reaction proceeds without involvement
of organic solvents and toxic formalin. Reaction temperatures
of 100*C are required for the decomposition of oxalic acid
into the intermediate formic acid which acts as the actual
reductant. The reaction conditions have been optimized, and
the mechanism has been elucidated by means of deuteration
experiments."

A SOLVENT-FREE AND
FORMALIN-FREE ESCHWEILER-CLARKE
METHYLATION FOR AMINES


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=86049&aid=2349

Did that sound familiar?

"Reaction temperatures
of 100*C are required for the decomposition of oxalic acid
into the intermediate formic acid which acts as the actual
reductant."

Compared to the patent;

"products are reacted with aqueous formaldehyde or a formaldehyde equivalent, such as paraformaldehyde, and a reducing agent, such as formic acid or sodium cyanoborohydride, to give N,N-dimethyltryptamine derivatives"

Compared to Rhodiums page;

"Tryptamine (1.12g, 7 mmol), Sodium Cyanoborohydride (0.88g, 14 mmol) and Glacial Acetic Acid (2ml, 35 mmol) was dissolved in 110ml Methanol at 0°C, and a solution of 37% Formaldehyde (1.4 mL, 18.5 mmol) in 15ml Methanol was added dropwise over 20 min, and the resulting solution was allowed to stir for 20 min at 0°C and 2.5h at room temp. The methanol was evaporated under reduced pressure, and 80ml 25% aqueous potassium carbonate was added and the solution extracted with 2x125ml EtOAc, the extracts washed with 2x40ml brine, dried over MgSO4and the solvent evaporated under reduced pressure to give an amber oil, which was purified by flash chromatography on 30g silica gel (using a gradient of EtOAc:MeOH) to give an oil, which was crystallized from boiling hexane to give N,N-Dimethyltryptamine as colorless waxy crystals, weighing 0.9g (69%)."

that was taken from;
Jose L. Castro, et. al., J. Med. Chem. 37(19), 3023-3032 (1994)

ZZ comment;
"I mean they did not use formic acid at all, and it was not a methylation reaction. "

first sentence of the quote from the book;

"In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamine derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid"

ZZ comment;
"Formiate anion is indeed the source of hydride, but i suppose sodium formiate can not be used as a reducing agent in E-C instead of formic acid. Because imine should also be protonated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschweiler-Clarke_reaction  The only case when we can at the same time have formiate anion and protonated imine, is when the reagent is formic acid"

The iminium ion is not protonated! The first step of Eschweiler-Clarke methylation is a Mannich reaction and it is the aldehyde that picks up a proton and gains positive character which is why it is attracted to the electron rich amine! Once iminimium ion is formed hydride reduces it to an amine. Hydride sources are zinc hydride, sodium cyanoborohydride and formic acid. The mannich reaction can proceed in the solid state with the paraformaldehyde, oxalic acid  and amine reaction because the oxalic acid dihydrate works as the acidic catalyst, it has to be the dihydrate because it acts as the hydrogen donor aswell. The yields are generally quantitative for this procedure.

note for ZZ;

I ask you, do you concede that tryptamines can undergo Escweiler methylation with sodium cyanoborhydride and formaldehyde?
As documented and referenced here;
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2dmt.html

btw; The above rhodium link uses exactly the same mechanism as the reaction using formic acid but this time formic acid is the reductant (hydride source), not sodium cyanoborohydride.

Lilienthal's Pharmacological & Chemical References at;
http://westwood.fortunecity.com/storey/116/referenc.htm

Has at least five examples like this;

5-subst. N,N-dimethyltryptamines from tryptamines with formaline, acetic acid, and NaCNBH4, yield 71% / 83%, p-CN-phenylhydrazine, Cl-butyraldehyde acetal reaction  #152    J. Med. Chem.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 01:39:33 AM by Naf1 »

timecube

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2009, 02:17:38 AM »
Before things get too heated, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to antagonistically argue with either of you, just trying to work toward an understanding of what this reaction will actually do (actual experimentation is the only real way to see but it would be nice to be able to narrow the theory down a bit first.)



I am a bit torn between references that seem to be disagreeing with each other.

From A Solvent-Free and Formalin-Free Eschweiler Clarke...
Quote
Due to the elevated reaction temperatures necessary and the acidity of the reaction medium, the procedure is not apt for thermally labile or acid-sensitive amines.

And tryptamine is acid-sensitive according to the Advances in Heterocyclic Chemistry reference.

I didn't miss the second half of the quote, it just seems self-confirming..
Quote
In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamine derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid, ring closure appears to be favored at pH < 7, but pH connot be the only controlling factor. An instance of ring closure, followed by formylation at pyr-N of the resulting tetrahydro-b-carboline, has also been reported under Eschweiler conditions.Related to this is the finding that in a reaction mixture containing tryptamine, formaldehyde and b-keto-ester.  1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline is formed in the presence of acid, but in the absence of acid an intermolecular Mannich reaction, yielding a tryptamine derivative, takes place preferentially.

The google patent doesn't convince me just because saying "a reducing agent, such as formic acid or sodium cyanoborohydride" doesn't necessarily mean they tried this.  It was an example, not an experimental result.

I have no doubts that formaldehyde and (cyano)borohydride can methylate tryptamine simply because no acids appear to be involved to cause the cyclization, whereas with formic acid or oxalic acid, there is acid present.  Given that these are weak acids, though, maybe it could be possible that not as much H+ is being released versus H-.


What is swaying me back a bit towards Naf1's side is that in the original experiments from Rhodium's page, acid appears to be purposely added to facilitate the reactions...

Quote
Tryptamine to N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT)

Next, 30g of formaldehyde and 120g Tryptamine were disolved in 1800ml of MeOH, to this was slowly added dropwise 50g of NaCNBH3 disolved in 550ml MeOH. Then 14g Glacial Acetic Acid was added dropwise with stirring. The mixture was then stirred for 60 hours. The majority of the MeOH was distilled off (2000 ml collected) to the distillation flask was added 1L of 5% Aq. Ammonia which was extracted with 3x250ml of DCM. The DCM was washed with a salt solution (not saturated but still pretty strong) then the DCM separated and dried with a large portion of anhydrous MgSO4. The DCM was distilled off at atmospheric pressure and then the distillation was continued under vacuum (~1 torr now) until the dimethyltryptamine was collected. Which was recrystalized from boiling hexane with a few mls of Ethyl Acetate added. This afforded 48.8g of DMT, a 35% yield.

   Note by Rhodium: The reason for the low yield should be a too low amount of formaldehyde added to the reaction mixture. At least two moles of formaldehyde per mole of tryptamine is needed for complete conversion to DMT.
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/tryptamine2dmt.html

My thinking is that maybe the MeOH is helping to form a kind of buffered solution to keep the pH high, but in the absence of that possibility, the experimental results seem to contradict the Advances... reference.

In short, it seems like this reaction should be possible based on experimental results, but references such as Advances... seem to say it shouldn't be.

Just my thoughts on it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 02:20:23 AM by timecube »

Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2009, 02:26:27 AM »
You definitely do need a little acidity to catalyse the Mannich Base formation. Even the book you linked states the pH is a maximum of pH 1 which are typical Pictet-Spengler conditions.

In fact Pictet-Spengler reactions take place in the presence of strong protic acids or Lewis acids, and can also be generated thermally.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=1N-MZVSesTcC&pg=PA469&lpg=PA469&dq=pictet+spengler+lewis+acid&source=bl&ots=uhS5p_g69m&sig=qhc9XCFGDlEH5lGx4h-1-Newa1Q&hl=en&ei=EQiOSomUFI2csgOeiqiECw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=pictet%20spengler%20lewis%20acid&f=false

Here is the link from Rhodiums page;
Jose L. Castro, et. al., J. Med. Chem. 37(19), 3023-3032 (1994)
http://sharebee.com/531462e5

Synthesis of 5-(sulfamoylmethyl)indoles
http://sharebee.com/65ddff4c

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 06:12:48 AM by Naf1 »

zzhuchila_clocker

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2009, 04:53:48 PM »
Naf1: See, the problem is to avoid P-S ring closure. If you know that it happens in acidic conditions, and that formic acid is not only a hydride source, but also it is acid, what is a problem then? You want to carry out reaction in basic medium? Do you know that acid reacts with base, and you will get formate anion HCOO- instead? Ok, formate anion is the actual reductant according to mechanism. But are you sure that in basic medium you will get iminium ions, necessary for E-C?
Or do you mean, that formic acid is not enough acidic to cause ring closure, and you can use it safely in the E-C with tryptamine to get "dmt" which will not cause parkinson then? Please explain

The only thing that makes me consider the possibility of E-C is, that in borohydride reduction, after one methyl is attached, the only possibility for second hydrid ion transfer is the formation of iminium ion(!) IndCH2CH2-N(Me)-CH2+ which is practically the same reacting particle as in the P-S reaction. Why does not P-C occur then? I suppose, either borohydride reduction must be having a different mechanism without formation of  free iminium ion, or hydrid transfer is a very fast reaction(and that is unlikely according to procedures), or the rate limiting step is the formation of iminium ion(because of no acid), and borohydride reduction is fast in comparison to that. Anyway i don't know
And about the purpose of using acetic acid, i believe it is mostly for borohydride activation. It may react with borohydride before it involves into P-S. Another explaination could be, that  the conditions are too mild for P-S(that may be another explaination of above paragraph question), as you can see no heating and reflux in procedures, like it is required in E-C. Besides the Ka of acetic acid in methanol is less then in water

Quote
So the Pictet-Spengler is not some secret that no one knows about, and what I am proposing is not revolutionary at all! The above link is over 15 years old!!!! Formic acid is the only change and because it is also a reductant by virtue of the fact it is also hydride source just like cyanoborohydride or borohydride, not to as great an extent but still a hydride source never the less. If you still think it is revolutionary check the references on rhodiums page dated 1993. Also if 80%+ yields of N,N-dimethylated tryptamine are traces then wow!

Please, provide refference when this 80% yield was obtained with formic acid reduction(previously i wrote it concerning formic acid). And don't write about excellent yields with borohydride, cyanoborohydride, and how easy do the usual amines react with oxalic acid and (CH2O)2 please. That is not annoying, but that was already posted several times, and does not make any sence. Formic acid is not "only" change, it is a critical change.  About rhodium refferences on page dated 1993 - are they for eschweiler clarke methylation of tryptamines (with formic acid as a reductant)? If you have ANY refference, or at least ANY your own thoughts (with mechanisms etc) how the P-S can be avoided with using formic acid, please share them.
And about "secret", i did not mean P-S is a secret, i wrote only about authors of that bloody patent which claimed to have methylated tryptamine by E-C (or as timecube said, it could be just an example, "example" shaming their knowledge and/or their reputation). Yes, i suppose they merely did not know about P-S. And according to that order in which you had provided the refferences to defend yourself(first to the patent, then to "advances" while PM correspondence, then to other sources), it appears to me, neither did you. Sorry if it is not like that and i believe it is not. But please just imagine yourself or some other bee, maybe k3wl, methylating tryptamine with E-C according to that "authors". No psychedelic effects, then another dose smoked, no effects, then another.. and then placing into hospital with parkinson's desease. Anyway i think there is no need to defend such authors.
  
Quote
ZZ comment;
"Formiate anion is indeed the source of hydride, but i suppose sodium formiate can not be used as a reducing agent in E-C instead of formic acid. Because imine should also be protonated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschweiler-Clarke_reaction  The only case when we can at the same time have formiate anion and protonated imine, is when the reagent is formic acid"

The iminium ion is not protonated! The first step of Eschweiler-Clarke methylation is a Mannich reaction and it is the aldehyde that picks up a proton and gains positive character which is why it is attracted to the electron rich amine! Once iminimium ion is formed hydride reduces it to an amine. Hydride sources are zinc hydride, sodium cyanoborohydride and formic acid. The mannich reaction can proceed in the solid state with the paraformaldehyde, oxalic acid  and amine reaction because the oxalic acid dihydrate works as the acidic catalyst, it has to be the dihydrate because it acts as the hydrogen donor aswell. The yields are generally quantitative for this procedure.
Well, i wrote imine should be protonated, forming the same iminium ion(see replyNo41, compound 4, R=H). If you use borohydride or some other strong reductant for methylation, you may as well be satisfied with 3 to reduce it without any problems (addition of first methyl). But Eschweiler Clarke seems to require only 4, according to wiki, but 4 is prone to cyclization at the same time. And you can not reduce 3 with formiate! That's what i wanted to say merely. Above i wrote about my misunderstanding the mechanism of borohydride reduction, i mean why the N-methylated 4 (methyl instead of H), which is obviously an itermediate, does not undergo the same cyclization, and i shared my thoughts above (probably because of mild conditions, and small lifetime of 4-Me before reduction. In case of formic/oxalic acid reduction, as general procedure requires, you have a bigger lifetime of 4-Me because of less reactivity of formiate ion, and more harsh conditions.

Quote
Did that sound familiar?
Of course! Though don't understand how it concerns E-C methylation of tryptamines.

Quote
I ask you, do you concede that tryptamines can undergo Escweiler methylation with sodium cyanoborhydride and formaldehyde?
No way! :D Eshweiler methylation is a different reaction

Quote
ZZ comment;
"I mean they did not use formic acid at all, and it was not a methylation reaction. "

first sentence of the quote from the book;

"In the competition between Pictet-Spengler ring closure and Eschweiler methylation of tryptamine derivatives on treatment with formaldehyde in formic acid"
If it is a quote then are you sure you did not miss anything?  There were refferences in original, and each sentence was ended by a refference. So obviously, b-ketoester and eschweiler clarke are related to different papers, merged in "Advances" because both dealed with ring closure.
Quote
In fact Pictet-Spengler reactions take place in the presence of strong protic acids or Lewis acids, and can also be generated thermally.
Thermally? And are temperatures like 100C sufficient?
["Reaction temperatures
of 100*C are required for the decomposition of oxalic acid
into the intermediate formic acid which acts as the actual
reductant."]  :D



« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 07:04:39 PM by zz-zhuchila »
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Naf1

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2009, 11:38:11 PM »
I do concede you are right! And I was wrongly referring to a methylation using Borch's methods, as an Eschweiler-Clarke methylation.  ??? Although the mechanism is very close, Mannich base formation followed by reduction of the imine by hydride to an amine. Whereas the indole Pictet-Spengler, does the same acid catalysed Mannich base formation of the imine. But the imine is protonated to form an iminium ion which is prone to cyclization.

But even the Borch cyanoborhydride methylation is conducted at somewhat low pH about 3-4 to catalyze the imine formation. So for the record you are right! but I just cant help but think that if you had ice cold formic acid in large excess, maybe based to pH 4 to retard the pictet spengler and it would also partially deprotonate the formic acid. At pH 3 or 4 so you can still catalyze the imine formation, but hopefully reduce it with a hydride to an amine from the large excess of formic acid. Otherwise the imine is easily protonated  at pH 1 (unless strong heat or long reflux is employed like 6 hours) or in the presence of a strong Lewis acid to form an iminium ion, if an iminium ion is formed pictet spengler ring will result.

So as it stands you are right, but this is something I would love to investigate further.

smoofzilla

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2011, 07:15:52 PM »
is there a basic dimethylation tek of tryptamines somewhere round here?

Tsathoggua

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2011, 08:51:28 PM »
Why not, instead of hydrolysis of the amide, reduce it using LAH, then methylate with MeI or Me2SO4 to give 5-MeO-n-Et,n-Me-tryptamine?

Nomen mihi Legio est, quia multi sumus

I'm hyperbolic, hypergolic, viral, chiral. So motherfucking twisted my laevo is on the right side.

Methansaeuretierchen

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Re: 5-meo-dmt from melatonin?
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2011, 01:52:52 AM »
Your can deacetylate melatonine easily with 1,1 eq KOH in 1-butanol under reflux (will take 2-4 hours).
Some sodium dithionite, and a inert gas etc. can be added/used, to prevent oxidation.
Other bases and alcohols are possible but will require much longer reaction times (which may also course more oxidation of the product).
Than add conc. HCl and evaporate most of the butanol. Put it in the freezer. Filtrate 5-MeO-T*HCl/KCl mixture. Recr. from hot EtOH.
Dissolve in a little dest. water. Add a little active charcoal. Filter. Add 1.1eq NaOH, filter. Wash with 10% NH4OH and dest. water. Dry in a dark room.
Overall yield: About 70% 5-MeO-T

From 5-MeO-T  dialkylation is possilbe with Pd/C, NaBH4 or easily with NaCNBH3.
Other possibility is formic acid ethyl ester and LAH (see tihkal under DMT)