Author Topic: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !  (Read 1667 times)

Dr.Methoxy

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 06:48:37 PM »
Btw, would it be possible to directly gas the safrole/allylbenze with gaseus HBr, instead of using 62% aqueus HBr or the 40% HBr in glacial acdtic acid?

Yes you can but you must use a solvent that dissolves HBr such as acetic acid.

@ jon : I am sorry, i wouldn't say you're a faker but all your reports are not complete. You porbably know that chemistry is a precise science and all the measures MUST be noted and explain. You wrote "HBr 40%" but you didn't talk about the solvent. For me when you say HBr 40% , that means it's dissolved into water if you don't precise the solvent. If you write "HBr 33%" i'll gess it's HBr in AcOH but writing all the information don't cost anything... Image all the people who tried this reaction with 40% aqueous HBr ??? Next time, be precise please.

Thank you.

Dr.MeO

jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 03:08:58 PM »
sure thing dr. oh btw phenylethypiperidone can be sourced from shady chem suppliers
posting on mdma is  bad idea because as you said thoughts are scattered and it's  impossible to be precise as you say the method works great the main thing is to pay attention to cetain variables it took jon moons and  moons to pan out exactly how to achieve the correct parameters because no matter how smart you think you are we still make boneheaded mistakes.
no need to apologize i accept responsibility for being inprecise due to excesses if you know what i mean

Sedit

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 09:08:36 PM »
Has anyone ever attempted the hydrobromination of an alkene using Glycolic acid or Glyoxylic acid as the solvent for the HBr instead of AcOH.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2010, 07:08:56 AM »
i've used propionic acid it works the same no difference except the longer organic chain solvates the safrole better than acetic acid.

Sedit

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2010, 09:09:48 PM »
I looking for a solvent that can be had easier then AcOH. I know no synthesis or over the counter sources for sodium propanate either. Wht other suggestions do you folks have for performing this reaction in that can be had quickly on the cheep. Don't say DMSO because I don't really believe it  when people say I works for this reaction.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2010, 06:45:52 PM »
GAA i've bought gallons without batting an eyelid just grow some gonads, the big bad jumpout boys are'nt goig to trouble you over a liter or two.
if you want mix h2so4 with food grade calcium propionate and distill it i've done that when in a pinch the acid works better even, as an organic solvent.

Sedit

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2010, 10:43:22 PM »
I dont give a fuck who calls me or what ever I just want to synthesis it. End of stopry .. Stop tryingto get me to order shiit I do that when I feel the need. Kapesh!
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
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jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2010, 02:11:18 PM »
okay treat any caboxylic acid salt with sulfuric acid and distill it, that simple.
food grade calcium propionate is used to keep grain/bread from spoiling pretty innocuous and widely availabe too

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 01:09:48 AM »
Can someone kindly do a little write-up of this procedure? I can't make sense of Jon's non-punctuational rambling, but do feel there is substance hidden in the gobbledygook.

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2010, 03:11:18 AM »
Write up? We are not exactly the cook book type round these parts but look into basic alkene bromination using HBr in AcOH as a solvent. You will quickly find what you need since its a standard means.

Also note that aq HBr can be used but you will need to remove the H2O from the reaction for it to proceed to the right. There are a few means to do so such as azeotropic removable and the use of PTC or zeolites to abosorb the water.
There once were some bees and you took all there stuff!
You pissed off the wasp now enough is enough!!!

lugh

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2010, 01:32:42 PM »
Quote
Can someone kindly do a little write-up of this procedure? I can't make sense of Jon's non-punctuational rambling, but do feel there is substance hidden in the gobbledygook.

It took several hours of reformatting to make that old Hive thread able to be posted in this one, all the information that one skilled in the art of organic chemistry would need is already in this thread  ;D If you can't figure it out that's your problem  ::)  The result comes from the effort applied  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2010, 01:40:41 AM »
I tihink you misunderstood me. I am not seeking a write-up a la Bright-Star, but rather a cogent explanation of the procedure. I am well aware and am familiar with bromination of alkenes as well as the Finkelstein reaction which all minds seem to arrive on a particularly useful switcheroo to form iodosafrole.

I was look more for reaction parameters used that would lead to success. I'm not a newb by any means.

Lest you all forget, the tiltle of this very thread is a complaint about Jon's vague ramblings and the OPs subsequent inability to result in bromosafrole. Its one thing to say, throw some sodium bromide in them that tubs along wit some H2So4 and some Glacial Acetic and your all good, versus a cogent discussion about the parameters of the reaction and reactants.

Sorry if I come off whiny. Its just I'm particularly excited about this route.

Quantum Dude

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2010, 02:09:07 AM »
I tihink you misunderstood me. I am not seeking a write-up a la Bright-Star, but rather a cogent explanation of the procedure. I am well aware and am familiar with bromination of alkenes as well as the Finkelstein reaction which all minds seem to arrive on a particularly useful switcheroo to form iodosafrole.

I was look more for reaction parameters used that would lead to success. I'm not a newb by any means.

Lest you all forget, the tiltle of this very thread is a complaint about Jon's vague ramblings and the OPs subsequent inability to result in bromosafrole. Its one thing to say, throw some sodium bromide in them that tubs along wit some H2So4 and some Glacial Acetic and your all good, versus a cogent discussion about the parameters of the reaction and reactants.

Sorry if I come off whiny. Its just I'm particularly excited about this route.

You sir have a point. Chemistry is about reproducibility of one`s results. If it aint reproducible, it aint worth shit.

jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2010, 04:11:44 PM »
ok the acetic acid is added to the intended reaction vessel cooling is'nt nessecary because the ensuing reaction is not exothermic the main hazard is hbr gas as it will fume so be ready to stopper the vessel sodium bromide is added based on the weight of the acetic acid with the intention of achieving 40% w/w soln of hbr in acetic acid.
by calculating the number of moles of hbr that would produce that conc. the nabr is added by using the mole number arrived at by that calculation, then h2so4 is added (fumes) and the stoichiometry :
nabr + h2so4 = nahso4 + hbr
so 1/1 stoic.
add slightly less so there is no excess free h2so4 floating around this is cooled to 0C and 1mole of safrole added per eery 1.9 mole unit of hbr
chill in the freeze 24 hours yield is aways 92% a lot of that depends on workup not the reacction itself the yeild that is.
would you like me to explain dimensional analyses next???
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 04:14:37 PM by jon »

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2010, 12:33:41 AM »
Now there we go! No need for dimensional analyses, but considering that you mention yield is highly dependent on workup, what is your preferred method of workup?

Thanks for indulging me, Jon!

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 10:26:41 PM »
jon, can you humour me here?

lugh

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2010, 12:17:13 AM »
Most people use an acid base extraction and/or fractional vacuum distillation to purify their work, it's doubtful that jon does things very differently but maybe he'll humor you with his version of what can be found all over the internet  ;) LT/ describes a work up in this thread, maybe you should try reading what's been posted already  ;D This site doesn't want exact Betty Crocker recipes posted, it's mostly for those skilled in the art  8)
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2010, 02:19:30 AM »
Lugh,

With regards to your suggestion to distill, it would seem that the instability of bromosafrole as mentioned by the OP would suggest otherwise. OP himself mentioned that despite a monster vacuum, yield was only 60% due to polymerisation. Furthermore, attempts at purification with different solvent proved difficult. This was in the OP's second post.

Jon specifically mentioned that the yield loss occurs during work-up. As he seems to have nailed the process, I thought it would be beneficial for him to describe the way he works it up so as to achieve minimal yield loss. Given the OP's results above, how is this an unreasonable requestt?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 02:25:11 AM by Dongle »

jon

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2010, 01:23:09 PM »
it's very simple once the bromsafrole has reacted it's taken from the freezer and the liquid phase is slowly decanted from the salts.
this takes time so patience is key.
the salts are dissolved fully in water and extracted with any chlorinated hydrocarbon does'nt matter it could be tce.
extracted only once the phases separated and the aqueous dumped.
the acid is diluted with 1-2 volumes of water you don't have to be exact.
you'll see phase separation now pour into sep funnel and separate phases.
use the same solvent from the previous extration and extract the aqueous phase.
separate and extract the aqueous once more this time with less solvent maybe 1/2 maybe 1/3 look for color change see if the solvent takes on a green or burgandy hue if it does'nt you can combine it with the bromsafrole or you can dump it along with the acid it's up to the chemist.
now to the bromosafrole and solvent pour into sep funnel add equal volume water and start adding bicarb and swirl do this carefully watch for fizzing add bicarb until the fizzing stops.
separate the bottom layer and discard the top layer aqueous layer.
wash once again with water, then brine then take the solvent off under a vacum (for heavier chlorinated hydrocarbons use a hot water bath)
whalla bromosafrole.
when i talk about workup you have to be mindful of mechanical loss spills, product clinging to glass. etc.
 this one will get you; all the safrole derivatives: mdp2p, md2brpropane, and safrole are all volatile, for example you could have some sitting in a beaker come back 8 hours later and 1/3 of it is gone, because it is volatile.
just little stuff like this can be the inspiration for new curse words to be invented.
 re: distillation
 bolloks! it is bad practice in general to distill high boiling organic halides bromides and iodides tend to decompose on heating to tar and polymeric gunk.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 01:51:21 AM by jon »

Dongle

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Re: Bromosafrole success with PTC - Jon's method does NOT work !
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2010, 04:21:18 PM »
This is great, thanks Jon.