Melatonin is interesting, a little more interesting after alkaline hydrolysis . We only discussed it briefly in a PM on SM.

Here's an interesting article I wish I could read fully - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6127411

It appears that the saturation of the heterocycle has a lot to do with the reactivity of these compounds, specifically when aiming for anxyolitic(spelling?) effects via GABA.

Amazing how a family of compounds can, fight infections, alter gaba, serotonin, bind to DNA, and be a vasodialator.

I will be bioassaying pinoline by the end of this summer if everything goes to plan. I also wouldn't mess with them too much either, or at least the obscure structured ones because of their possible effect on DNA. I will keep you posted on my research with these, I am also very fascinated by their chemistry/pharmacology. Just remember start TINY, and work your way up.

Not to go off topic and discuss banter rather then science. Though it is interesting to make note of the emphasis Shulgin put on isoquinolines, which are closed rings of phenethylmines, while betacarbolines are closed rings of tryptamines. Also how some very similar structures are suspected agonists to some of the more 'nefarious' receptor sites, see Ibogaine, Yuremamine(suspect), etc. I believe in my ignorant unfounded opinion that this was the road-block he also ran into with his isoquinoline research. Where do we start, the pharmacology isn't well known, and us hobbyists don't have herd's of mice to do tests on to check for genetic mutation or toxicity.

Anyhow it's very cool to find someone else who feels the call towards this structure. I'm not sure what I'm personally looking for in them, but I know there is something of value here.

If you have ptsd you really want to stay away from unmodified yohimbine.  Does really nasty things to you.


I have found a drug, tianeptine, that is good for anxiety that sedit might want to look at even if you aren't interested in it because of what they learned by studying it.  This paper covers a lot of the damage done by stress, trauma etc and how it relates to depression and anxiety.  Early papers published were wrong about some of it's effects.  The latest research is into normalizing agents and things which increase or control neuroplasticity.  Stuff we didn't even know we could do

Salat

SL-651,498 is an anxiolytic and anticonvulsant drug used in scientific research, with a chemical structure most closely related to ?-carboline derivatives such as abecarnil and gedocarnil.[1] It has similar effects to benzodiazepine drugs, but is structurally distinct and so is classed as a nonbenzodiazepine anxiolytic.

SL-651,498 is a subtype-selective GABAA agonist, which acts as a full agonist at ?2 and ?3 subtypes, and as a partial agonist at ?1 and ?5 (although its action at ?5 subtypes is much weaker than at the others). In animal studies, it has primarily anxiolytic effects, although some sedation, ataxia and muscle relaxant effects are observed at higher doses.[2] It substitutes fully for the anxiolytic benzodiazepine chlordiazepoxide, but only partially substituted for the imidazopyridine hypnotic drug zolpidem and the benzodiazepine hypnotic triazolam.[3][4] When given repeatedly it failed to produce tolerance or dependence, probably due to its low affinity and efficacy at the ?5 subtype.[5]

SL-651,498 has been suggested for development as a novel non-sedating anxiolytic drug for humans, although it is still only at an early stage of research.[6] Preliminary human trials suggest similar efficacy to lorazepam as an anxiolytic, but with little or no sedation or impairment of memory, motor skills or cognitive function.[7]

There are other possibly anxioselective compounds in development, such as L-838,417, NGD 91-3.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-651,498

Some loose notes after skimming through the thread . Please comment and put me right if i`m wrong . Maybe i have read some things wrong ? And i got so pissed of with some of the pseudo scientific shit in this thread i cant be bothered to re read what i`ve written and recheck it / think it over . So please feel frre to shoot at me .


When they are talking about beta carbolines in studys are they talking about synthetic ones ? Or are they naturaly ocuring ones in the percentages and possible doses that a human would find and eat ? Because i am very suspect of the claims that natural beta carbolines are dangerous in combination with some drugs as 1 - i aint never seen any studys that were done with naturaly ocuring beta carbolines in their natural state = in plants or raw extractions from plants . and 2 - because i dispute that at least P.Harmala can cause bad effects at least in doses people normaly take ...... because i`ve eaten 20 gramms of P:Harmala with no bad effects and i`ve also consumed foods that one isnt suposed to consume with beta carbolines with them also without bad effects . Plus P:Harmala has been used for thousands of years as a medicine by people with stomach problems . There is also a record by doctors that one can find useing gooooogle about a guy that took 125 grams of P.Harmala with no ill effects . From what i know all the reports of bad effects from combineing beta carbolines with certain foods and medicines were talking about pharmaceutical beta carbolines .

"Beta-Carboline"

Are you / they talking about that substance ? or Beta carbolineS or A Beta carboline . That isnt clear as one sees in this title "Neuropharmacological antagonism of the beta-carboline-induced "anxiety" response in rhesus monkeys" . If you / they are can you tell me what natural source there is that humans and apes can naturaly eat of beta carboline ?

"because under a blacklight my skin and mainly eyes take on a strange glow"

Strange cos harmala alkaloids flouresce electric puke green . One did a water extraction of 1 kilo of Peganum Harmala ( <------ Mana in the bible and one of the proofs that the shaman moses used an ayahuasca analog <--------LOL ....... my first provocation of the day ....... hope someone takes the bait .......) and treid to be as clean as posible . After the extraction one turned the light off and turned a UV light on and nearly shit oneself because all over rthe room and on the walls there were splodges that lit up like a fuckin disco .

"studies looking for the source of the anxiety in some form of natural MAOI"

Got a source for that ? as i had read that P:Harmala had been / is used as an anti depresant from north africa to iran . ( If there is a link in your post or in the quote please point me at it as my eyes are shit and i cant read the quotes ) .


A thought inbetween ....... have you tried L-Tryptophan ? I find it helps me sleep , makes me dream more and acts as an anti depresant . <----- good against seretonin deficiency ? <------ that can happen if we take to much of certain drugs .

When your talking about smokeing weed i bet you are talking about indoor weed ? Because thats what indoor weed does to me and out door weed and hash doesnt . The last big study in the UK came up with some links between mental problems and cannabis ...... but what the fuckers didnt say was that the tests / results came from indoor grass since 1990 . They didnt have anything to do with hash or out door grass . <-------- came from a BBC interview with one of the people who did the study .

Another one inbetween  - Makeing guesses about interactions between drugs isnt a good way to go because its hard ? imposible ? to prove without at least real scientific studys as any interaction with brain chemistry could be caused by combinations with a shit load of other things we imbibe and also genetic diferences and natural neurotransmitter imbalances as found in people with some mental and behaviour problems .

"Hypertensive issues are something that also runs in the fam and honestly my life expectancy is prob about another  15 years if theres anything to be learned from the long line of middle age dead males in my gene pool"

Dont take that for granted . Just because a load of them had problems in no way means that you will have the same problems . It could be genetic or it could be epigenetic in both directions = epigenetics turning genes on in your relations and off in you ?

"Aside from all this imgine for a second if every time someone decided to eat something that had DMT in it if they suddenly where taking the equivalent of a ayahuasca type drink. The thought of something formed in the body evoking a simular response is scary to say the least."

WOT ? That sounds rather muddled to me and bends my brain . Any evidence ? Hints ? What would a person eat with enough DMT in to get a trip and the body doesnt make enough DMT to cause a trip . Plus anyone takeing beta carbolines as a medicine wouldnt eat the DMT in the first place . And no amount of beta carbolines one could / would take would in combination with naturaly ocuring body DMT cause a trip .

"These are, im sure of, the most powerful tools for the study of serious mental disorders"

Are ? Nope . Could be ........ where P:Harmala is taken as a medicine it is used against evil spirits both oraly and as incense . In countrys like that evil spirits and mental ilness are / were often the same thing . <------- make own conclusions .

"I feel there view on the subject is once you have gone so far down the wrong road you may as well continue on and hope it gets you back to where you should be, this is foolish when turning around and taking a new approch would benifit millions of people in this overly stressed out world. "

YUP EXACTLY = stop takeing any drugs and eat , sleep and exercise properly for at least 6 months . Then see if you still have the same symptoms and then if you have try the beta carbolines . <------ = the problems could have come or at least been made worse by takeing to many drugs in to biger doses to often .

"one would expect that the Endo ?-carboline alkaloids would also be present in an equally inverse amounts thoughout the day rising in a sharp peak at wake time or periods of time that call for extended mental use such as periods of stress."

Why ? Evidence ?

"Schizophrenia"

I`d say it would be better to look at the way the consciousness filters whats happening in the subconsciousness and that Schizophrenia is realy a product of those filters being in one way or another fucked = the consciousness gets unfiltered views of what the the subconsciousness is doing . The first works with words and lineal thoughts . the second doesnt . In the unconsciousness different body and brain functions comunicate with eachother in non verbal ways and the Schizophrenia missinterprets those messages . Or at least give them a different weight . If anyone thinks the subconscious is a nice place to be and that one could enter it and watch it like a TV program they are wrong . Each system talks with itself and with other systems and the chatter can be like listening to mental illness . For instance the ego isnt a nice thing . Its shit scared and when it sees people and things it starts shouting "Danger" "Fight" "flight" other centers then have to weigh up the chatter and then form a consensus of the dangers and actions to be taken . <----- = the subconscious is like a very bolshy and agressive comittee meeting which is divided up into systems ( comittee members ) with prioritys and diferent levels of rights like the tasks in the task manager of a windows system .

"Nicotine+ DMT mix could be smoked? "

If you mean tobaco and DMT mixed to get a sort of ayahuasca effect . There isnt enough body DMT or tobaco beta carbolines to have any effect as an ayahuasca analog and the nicotine would kill before one could smoke that much tobaco anyway .


"I am surprised more research into "allergic" reactions caused by...(you name it!!...especially foods!!) have not been done--that awareness of "food allergies" themselves is a fairly new science disturbs me --I think more people 'suffer' from adverse reactions to 'common' substances than is realised in "modern western medicine/science""

YUP . More research needs to be done on the psychelogical effects of foods . AND from what i`ve read over the last few years a hell of a lot more research needs to be done in the direction of the mental effects of some bacteria and mushrooms. Its been shown that some of them have a mental effect in animals . Some ants get a mushroom infection wich causes them to exhibit behaviour conducive to the spread of the mushrooms . There was also somethiong similar that i read about a cat disease that humans can get wich changes human behaviour .

The cheepest and easyest source of beta carbolines is P.Harmala . It cost a few euros a kilo in a load of asian shops . They call it "Spant" "espant" and "Aspant" depending on the origins of the seller . A simple water extraction works ...... but why extract them just eat the seeds .

"I liken it to imagine how you would feel if everytime you got sleepy someone shocked you awake everytime you started to dose off. I have spent time caring for autistic and spent many hours with watchful eyes and I can say they rarely sleep."

Totaly mentaly fucked to the point of haveing the same or similar symptoms as a person with mental illness . With the autistic kids is it the sleeplessness that makes them display autistic symptoms or the autism that makes them sleepless .





Sorry cant read much more because this thread has lost a lot of the sense it had / might have had because some of you are going of into pseudo scientific theorys and relitavely irelevant chemistry . More focus is needed .

I keep thinking that people in this thread are sometimes not thinking scientificly and are more tailoring their explenations to what they want to believe . And that they are sometimes getting cause and effect muddled up . And that a lot of their problems or at least the severity of their problems are caused by being polytoxic = takeing to many drugs to often in to bigger doses . Get back to base line and then do experiments or ones results are unreliable because of cross effects and effects from abuseing substances.

The same goes for people looking for doctors that they can convince that they have certain problems . The right way to go is to go to doctors and tell them only symptoms and let them work out whats happening rather than to make a self diagnosis and then sell that to doctors . Another thing is one must be very carefull with doctors as some of them have pet theorys and are ego wankers trying to prove , through you , that their theorys are right . The unbiased , neutral , critical aproach is the way to go = scientific method . = one doctors diagnosis isnt enough . One needs at least a second opinion . A good example is aspergers . Look at ...... is it MDS or MSD ? the US book that describes diferent medical problems and says how to diagnose them ....... and look at the way aspergers is suposed to be diagnosed and then at how it was diagnosed in you / the people you know . I know people who have been diagnosed as haveing it but the way it way done didnt fit with the official way of diagnoseing it .

Another thing is are aspergers and ADS and similar behaviour things a product of the imbalance of neurotransmitters that those people have or are thos imbalances cause by the behaviour ? By that i mean do people get the symptoms from chemical imbalances they have or ....... as behaviour is learned ..... the chemical imbalances asociated with the behaviour come from the behaviour . From what i`ve seen ...... for example football stadiums filled with parents and kids diagnosed as haveing ADS ........ it was a matter of seconds before one could see that there were more paterns in the behaviour / situation , aage and intelligence of the paremnts than in the kids . The majority of parents of kids with ADS symptoms are either old , single women or people of lower ntelligence .

"my former probation officer once had to be threatened"

I used to take mushroom trips and smoke cannabis with some of mine .

Another thing is for fucks sake stop this fashionable shit with "It could be genetic" ....... bollocks ....... look at the history of these diagnosis and then think about the changes in the human environment ...... for example the start and rise of these diagnosis and the use of plastics . There are other possible causes to .

"Hell if Meletonin for instance is metabolized wrong it can turn into large amounts of DMT in someones brain. Schizophenia anyone"

For fucks sake Sedit stay real ...... theoreticaly not can ........ and again think about cause and effect with all this shit about body DMT and schitzophrenia ....... and about the amounts of those chemicals needed to cause drug effects . Through this thread you and others have been jumping around from one theory to another wich have little if no scientific basis and then only looking at the conclusions that fit your theory . THIS IS NOT SCIENCE .

 This DMT , pineal gland , near death experiennces and schitzophrenia fashion SHIT has in my opinionm a hell of a lot to do with total bullshit like "The spirit molecule" . Lets be scientific or we will never win the war against the war against drugs .

"They cause anxiety, fight anxiety, do this that or the other as well as the opposite of all of that."

Here we go again .WHY ? Is it the chemicals or the combinations and / or side effects / combined effects of them and other things in the body ? What makes a substance display different symptoms in different people ? The substance or the combinations in the body .

Guys stop trying to make the science fit the theory and do it the scientific way = have a theory and then see if the science matches it .

Being anoyed and a total bastard ......... isnt it noticable how many of the people on drug forums have mental problems .


"what ever happened to seconal and qualludes??"

Arent used anymore because of the adictive potential . Have been replaced by other pharma garbage . One did enjoy hand fulls with a few pints long ago though ........


The ( shit ) pictures are the result of a water extraction of 1 kilo of P.Harmala ------>

Included is a reference for that Bullshit theory that DMT may play a role in Schizophrenia. High levels have already been found in mentally ill patients. Read it carefully its full of good information.

I have to say, that the connection between schzophrenia and autism, to me doesn't hold much water. The delusions, paranoia, hallucinations (taking classic paranoid schizophrenia as the example, of course there are subtypes) etc. are not present, although social withdrawal often is. My impression though, is that the negative symptoms present in schizophrenics, they suffer for it.

Much of the time, we, do not. I am not very social, nor is my girl, hell, she is so a-social, it would shock and puzzle many NTs. But we like it that way.

The melatonin connection is interesting though, actually, as it happens. Autistic people in many cases, appear to have lower levels of melatonin than do NTs. And sleep disturbances are often present. I have really, seriously wierd and messy sleep patterns. At least, before I got on tizanidine (quick reliable knockout there when enough is taken)

If I don't take it, I either do not fall asleep, or it takes, as it has always done, as long as I can remember, 5-6, maybe 7 hours to fall asleep naturally. I don't become any 'more' autistic, when I don't sleep though, I am just as asocial, rock/flap/spin about the same amount, in general, all that happens is I become tired, my memory and concentration goes to shit, and feel way overstimulated/overloaded.

Nothing different from usual really, for most people, as far as I am aware, although thankfully, I have never been most people:P

Wierd sleep cycles? hah, yes, definately. And then some. I just woke up from a 50h plus sleep, waking at about 10.30-11.00am, I usually sleep until 5pm at least, but then every so often, that happens and all gets thrown out of whack.

It is generally agreed that the causes are (epi?)genetic, and present from birth, indeed some arseholes have come up with a potential prenatal test. Personally I reckon any labs working on that need trashing and looting, and their data burning.

As far as schizophrenia goes, and psychedelics, it has been shown a fair few times that both in humano, and in animal subjects the 5HT2a agonist psychedelics have little or nothing, aside from the fact that both cause changes in perception and have different mindsets attatched than a baseline NT/nonintoxicated subject. Glutamatergic antagonists specifically of the NMDAr have much more in common with the schizophreniform state. There appears to be a glutamatergic hypofunction in schizophrenia, certainly involving the NMDA system, and due to the prevalence of poor memory function and learning disability it wouldn't surprise me at all if AMPARs were involved also.

I believe that endogenous anxiogenic b-carboline production may have something to do with things though as far as anxiety goes, IIRC, in shulgin's little end-section on various betacarbolines and histamines, etc, that ethyl carboxylate ester has been detected in humano, in alcohol drinkers. I can see where the ethyl carboxylate group might be being donated from....ethanol itself, or its metabolites acetaldehyde or acetic acid.

Apparently it is extraordinarily potent as a GABAa antagonist, so even being produced in small concentrations it may well be having an effect.

Have any of those in PDF format by any chance?

As far as that look in the eyes....mmmm the autie stare is so damn sexy. My girl has 'that look', I know what you mean. I have absolutely no idea how to describe it, but I know it when I see it, drives me nuts in a girl, that does.

Doesn't look like someone tripping though, the massive pupil dilation is not there. More of a look right inside you/through you, or both at the same time.

We may, or may not have our disagreements on this coming point, but I personally, don't view autism as a disorder, even what you call 'lower functioning' (ick!), to me, its just different software, running on a somewhat different CPU architecture. Make ye not the mistake, and a huge mistake it is, of viewing 'functioning level' as a measure of intelligence. The two do not correlate. It can co-occur with mental retardation, yes, in certain cases, but when it does, it is exactly that, it doesn't CAUSE it, at least I do not believe so. I went to a school with people, two schools in fact, for autistic people, the second one a boarding school. The former was more kanner's autistic kids, and those with other classical autistic variants, and both were present in some cases, but the majority were not. The second was more AS, and some HFA.

In all the people I have met outside the school, the only one with both autism and actual mental retardation was a girl I dated for a while a few years back, I have known, and corresponded with more, who have been judged (always by NTs, mind you) to be MR, but to be honest, its usually because they do not live up to NT expectations of what intelligence is.

It was there alright, but just had a very different viewpoint on the world and way of doing things.

Also, I know 'highly functioning' (I.E working, up to all sorts of random stuff, autistic community activist work) people, that still have a great many Kanner's/classically autistic traits, lining things up, special attachment to certain objects, motor stereotypy etc. One such person, a good friend of mine, is hypersensitive to noise, especially, as far as I know, background 'crap' and likes to rock with a stuffed toy held to her head.

God help anybody who slags her off for it though...she would leave them feeling like the worlds most ginormous, bloated great moronic twat, and wanting nothing more than to crawl under a rock and die alone.

She might act/look spesh (which mind you, I think is a good thing, and an attractive trait in females), which I guess could lead people who don't know any better to assume she has MR, but beneath that foxy exterior, there is a hell of an intellect, she speaks two languages (at least, that I know of, english and BSL, shes polish so it wouldn't surprise me if she spoke some polish also), she has had articles published in 'disability now' magazine, covering autism,  when she is verbal she is great to talk to (when she isn't, I couldn't do so, mind you, since we speak different dialects of sign, so it would have to be online only in that case), and has helped me out with some really sticky situations.

The way I see it, autism of any flavour is not a disorder at all, rather, if it causes impairment, for the vast part, it is actually because of other people, not being willing, or in some cases, being too sodding well ignorant (I am not saying this of you sedit, or of any poster here, I just mean in general) to make the effort to understand us, or to, for those who need it, make the appropriate adaptations, or provide the right support. One would hold the door open, for instance, for somebody who just broke a leg and is on crutches, but many people fail to bother, when it is not something immediately visible (or more to the point, when it is something not physical in origin) that requires such an extension of common courtesy.

And, this might surprise you....but I am one of those kids, or rather, was. I am now one of those adults.