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	Posts 1 - 20 of 20	Subject: Extraction Quandry

	Payin2Much (Hive Addict) 10-30-02 18:21 No 374542		Extraction Quandry	Bookmark Reply
			Most of you know that for quite a while SWIP has steered clear of the 120's.  A helpful friend added H2O to a pitcher of boxes to soak.  Now an enlightened bee knows to NEVER expose these beauties to H2O.  This "helpful friend did not have the benefit of our knowledge. Now he has 100ml of glue & 800 gluey nodules to deal with.  He's gonna try adding activated carbon, but should he totally evap first?  He thinks he'll make a little research project out of this by splitting them in half.  He also wanted me to ask for any other suggestions.  THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP! 2Much of Everything is Just Enough... What a Long, Strange Trip it's Been
	bbman (Newbee) 10-30-02 20:14 No 374577		Take a small amount	Bookmark Reply
			It sounds to me like he tried to extract by soaking in water, but didn't use enuf water to fully thin out the cellulose time releasers, and now that's what has to be done. Take a small amount of the goo (measure the weight so you know exactly how muc yuo sart with), and add at least an equal amount of water. Mix thoroughly and keep adding more measured amount of water, until the goo thins out and becomes very flowable.  At that point stop mixing and let them soak overnight.  If it thickens up overnight, then go back and repeat the added water step.  You'll probably have to do this a couple of times.  When the overnight soak finally results in a thin solution, you can proceed with an A/B and hopefully that should get the goodies....You also might need additional washes with 'tone, toluene or some other NP. If it works with the small amount you started with, you can scale-up.  Bee sure to keep accurate records of the amounts used
	Payin2Much (Hive Addict) 10-30-02 21:12 No 374620		Good Advice	Bookmark Reply
			Thanks, I've got my plan... just boil the whole shootin' match w/ NAPHTHA & carbon & all the bullshit should be left behind w/ E H2O to deal with.... hopefully. 2Much of Everything is Just Enough... What a Long, Strange Trip it's Been
	geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 10-30-02 22:47 No 374679		Dry them out, grind them up	Bookmark Reply
			Dry them out. No hotter than 140 degrees F, in the oven, leave the door slightly open. Once dry, grind them up, then microwave them crisp. Evaporate the gooey water, it has peg and pseudo in it. Add the residue goo to the plate in the oven and dry it too. Bone dry. Heat has to be low...PEG up to PEG 400 is a liquid. Above that it is a solid at room temp. The higher the weight, the higher the melting point. If it will not dry, heat it and acetone flash it. Add what falls out to the pile of GUPs. I don't recommend doing an A/B of any type on these pills without having countered the PEG before the A/B. The Waterless A/B method uses xylene boils before the A/B. The STB doesn't come back to the A in the B, it collects the freebase. If you do a water-based a/b on the pill extract, understand the PEG is in the water too. If you base the water with NaOH and extract with non-polar, you will extract the PEG with the pseudo. This may not pose a serious problem with white 60's or with red hots. With generic 120's, it does. Play with water at your own risk. Mostly harmless
	dwarfer (Hive Addict) 10-31-02 03:12 No 374762		oh yeah and besides	Bookmark Reply
			If you want to get creative about it, a good microwaving WITH water AND FeCl3 BEFORE going the "dry route" will get you some exciting results as the contaminants degrade.. =================== ^m o ^r e l ^a t ^e r dwarfer
	halfkast (Stranger) 10-31-02 17:28 No 375017		untrustworthy: possibly an inadvertant liar.	Bookmark Reply
			Try this on a small sample. Base it, turn it in to the sulfate salt (higher bp/dp than HCl I think, warning: this is only based on relative ephedrine HCL:sulfate b.p., I don't know), for safer boiling in both xylene and mineral turpentine and any other aromatic hydrocarbon you have. Base it or Base it and turn it in to the HCL salt. In the waterless A/B thread someone said that aromatics are the way to go for PEG, but the author suggested mineral spirits (which is aliphatic) as a possible option, many others words have supported this. I'm not sure if you find that this is less economical, all these boils and steps yieldwise than just settling for the 60mg and 30mg... You sound like your really in need of proven practical advice, which I don't have just my 5 cents. Best of luck to you. geezmeister are >PEG400 real solids or just extremely viscuous? will the gooey PEG even allow the psuedo to be based when it's been activated like that? Doesn't the PEG get left behind with an A/B because it isn't a salt? how does it follow? I wonder if a glycol ether solvent do anything to this, the names are similar? Samples of the adulterants would be excellent. Dissolving things is something I can do.
	geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 10-31-02 19:04 No 375059		as best I know	Bookmark Reply
			geezmeister are >PEG400 real solids or just extremely viscuous? PEG 400 and below they are viscous liquids, period. Above 400 they will solidify. The melting point increases with weight. Understand that the properties of PolyEhtyleneGlycols can be "tuned" as to solubility. will the gooey PEG even allow the psuedo to be based when it's been activated like that? I suspect this is the reason for low yields from A/B extractions that introduce water to the pill masses at or during the basing of these pills. Either the lighter weights of the PEG can't withstand the basing while the heavier can, or only part of the pseudo is extracted and the rest is in fact gakk-bound. I doubt if the time release property is completely efficient. Doesn't the PEG get left behind with an A/B because it isn't a salt? how does it follow? The literature indicates that PEG can be tuned in such a fashion that it becomes non-polar soluble on one end when exposed to concentrations of NaOH. Neutralize the solution it is in, and it becomes water soluble. Not what you think of as an A/B extraction, but the same effect. PEG will in fact follow through an A/B process. If it did not, it would not be present in pseudo extracted by an A/B, nor would it be present after the post-reaction a/b of meth. I wonder if a glycol ether solvent do anything to this, the names are similar? I have no idea. Samples of the adulterants would be excellent. Dissolving things is something I can do. Get a pack of the 120's and soak in some water. That will give you pseudo and PEG to play with. Mostly harmless
	halfkast (Stranger) 11-01-02 19:00 No 375416		as best I know you know	Bookmark Reply
			I'm trying to get my head around all that, what an adulterant. So, some PEG forms are solid and some are viscuous liquids, but they all become viscuous liquids when exposed to water, is that the main point of them? On the basing, I have also read about the NaOH/PEG relationship. Sodium carbonate all the way might be the way to go, instead of taking it over the line with NaOH as well suggested in your WAB thread. What do you think? After the chosen non-polar soak(s) and dry acetone rinse, do you ever do a test on a sample either with water or by a sample A/B so you don't wind up with a mess and can do different NP soaks if the test shows it's still present? Get a... OK good idea I will do that I want to test the glycol ether on a nice hunk of it, I have it as a "concentrate", but any money it has water in it, so first ill have to find a dessicant for ethers. You never know. Well I never know.
	geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 11-01-02 21:23 No 375446		peg o'my heart	Bookmark Reply
			they all become viscuous liquids when exposed to water, is that the main point of them? No, they appear to dissolve in the water and the water does not become partiuclarly viscuous. The viscous oily form of the PEGs dissolves in water also. They are highly water soluble. As do the crystaline forms.  Tie the peg to pseudo, and even the 200 or 400 will crystalize with the pseudo. It will flash with meth to powder form but seems to impede crystal formation of meth. Meth crystals with PEG will appear with evaporation, but if the PEG concentration is high enough, it will prevent crystal growth in alcohol/acetone solvent solution. Does not do this with pseudo. Sodium carbonate all the way might be the way to go, instead of taking it over the line with NaOH as well suggested in your WAB thread. What do you think? That was one of the considerations for using sodium carbonate. Also the dried sodium carbonate not only serves to base, but also absorbs moisture generated in the basing process. (That was NOT part of the original rationale for sodium carbonate--but a reason to use it with NaOH when basing the dry matrix pills). After the chosen non-polar soak(s) and dry acetone rinse, do you ever do a test on a sample either with water or by a sample A/B so you don't wind up with a mess and can do different NP soaks if the test shows it's still present I have gone to xylene boils on the 120's. Check the end of the WAB thread. One for sure, and I go by the tint of the xylene after the boil. (Hard to describe...its like pornography and the court...they can't define it but they know it when they see it.) Repeat the boils until the xylene has no yellowish or brownish discoloration when decanted after the boil. If you have dried your acetone, an acetone boil does not hurt at all, but if you have moisture in the acetone that boil is counterproductive. I am unaware of any peg-specific test to use at this point. One would be nice. Hope the response helps. Mostly harmless
	dwarfer (Hive Addict) 11-02-02 01:00 No 375522		Miss Peggy (oink)	Bookmark Reply
			IMHO the PEG's are "amended" and do not display all the properties of PEG. Trying to recast all that has been said in the past 4 months or so into an overarching "this is how to do it" thread would be difficult, and if past "fait accompli" pseudo-(pun){:<)  "end points" and "ne pas ultra"  experiences are a guidepoint, essentially wrong, as nailing down a continuously moving target is impossible. There's several ways to get rid of PEG's, or minimize their effect, whether thru dry alcohol, "differential crystallization"  or ":<) using other sources (hint, hint). As for the boiling of solvents, I continue to know that doing it in a pressurized pipe is healthier, more effective, safer, and cheaper. As for what Mr. Geeze says about knowing it when you see it, the xylene in a glass jar, with a light behind it, in dark or dim conditions, will reveal with some clarity, the "taint" that he refers to. This is particularly so if you use a "focusable" penlight set on minimum "spot" setting. dwarfer
	zibarium (Naked) 11-02-02 04:08 No 375582		paradoxical safety; solvent vapors	Bookmark Reply
			glad to see dwarfer's stand on solvent heating safety. a two-edged sword, tempered by knowledge. most of the solvents commonly encounterd by the chem-hck set will vaporize at temps lower than 100c; and it is the vapors of these highly flammable solvents which, mostly, cause the threat. we can't see them; they affect our judgement; as vapor they are extremely flammable...and , perhaps we can't get them hot enough to do their best work. confinement and heat allow the solvent temp to go higher without beecoming vapourous. dwarfer? any clues on what the highest reading you have dreamed of seeing on a pressure gauge is? (in regards to this endeavor) at what temp? reactant vol/flask vol ratio? in hopes of greater clarity for all, zib
	dwarfer (Hive Addict) 11-02-02 05:02 No 375596		fume control	Bookmark Reply
			on the money: it's the exposure to chemicals OTHER than goodies that causes problems for the stimulant seeker.  (mostly  ":<)  ) Long term exposure to the solvents we bandy about can cause liver, kidney, and skin disease: tetra-chloroethylene is the worst in many ways, and should be very cautiously employed as the carcinogen it is. but at least it's non-flammable.. "not if but when" you have a fire, I've seen posted many times. But the PP/SS functionally reduces the hazards by (estimate) 99%.  Like Zib says, its the heavier  than air fumes that find a combustion source. WHOOSH is the first clue, followed by significant heat.. I remember doing it quite safely outside on concrete on my variable heat electric hot plate, non explosion proof... OOPS: the thermostat clicked on, or was it off?? Who cares: the minute spark from the switch was enough. It was in a Visionware fry pan: one of my favorite lab tools. I flang it, lock stock, and flambe' onto the grass, where the hose was running.  Lost some pre-moleasses, and knobbed up my eybrows, but i was (once more) a lucky fuck. =================== I will measure the pressure of various solvents at 100C and post the results soon. i think there is a way to calculate it: I would guess that the pressure is around 300 to 500 PSI MAX.. A plain galvanized pipe has seen at least 50 to 100 cycles with no apparent problem: It has been tested EVEN at 100% fullness (Like Foxy said, this is highly UNrecommended.) Stick to 3/4 full and you will have zero problems. Teflon tape, a vice,, a pipe wrench, and boiling water: dry Acetone, regrind the mass (the polyampholytes ball up in small brown balls..) This can be done IN the pipe, with a hole through a PVC cap, through which you run the stem of your drill driven stirrrer... Then put in xylene, and replace the steel end cap with more teflon tape.. Boil THAT for 15 minutes, and examine the yellow-tinted liquid.. Probably you will have to do that another time to get it down to almost clear, and a third time to be happy... THEN? fill to 3/4 with naphtha, pour in an appropriate anmount of NaOH, REtop and REboil for 15 to 30 minutes. While still warm, decant the naphtha and follow the instructions of Geeze and VE re refrigeration or gassing. RE naphtha-ize the gups to make sure you got it all. you will need to, because of the fairly small amount of naphtha. As you may surmise, the naphtha will often be supersaturated.. =============== Save your solvents for distillation/recovery.... dwarfer
	zibarium (Naked) 11-02-02 06:48 No 375626		less solvents used...another plus	Bookmark Reply
			should we collectively get a handle on the forces, and use them advantageously. in some ways, it seems like its too late for the gup/rp/I2 thing. but, hopefully, some of the knowledge gleaned in that effort will translate into usefullness in future endeavors with different molecules. kudos, dwarfer!
	geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 11-02-02 18:05 No 375747		HOWZ about a complete writeup	Bookmark Reply
			Hey D: You  are on. I gotta try this. It makes sense to me. The only question I have is mobility of the gups inside the pipe to get the fb in touch with the naphta, since there's no bubbling going on in the pipe... This pipe may yet become the tool of choice. Ummmm....got any stirrers? How about a complete writeup on this extraction via Pressurized Pipe. I have done the pipe with np's and with acetone in particular and you have a procedure that will work without doubt! I understand it because I've done it. I have a chunk of pipe hidden 'round here somewhere. Genuine lab grade galvanized pipe. (Ok-- I didn't say whose lab graded it..) Mostly harmless
	cthulhujr (Hive Bee) 11-03-02 03:09 No 375877		pipe boils	Bookmark Reply
			swim has been doing pipe boils as of late, to pre-treat gups. After getting over the initial reservation of potentially explosive solvents under pressure, (with some helpful advice from dwarfer)has found it works reel good. Swim has been doing a 'tone wash followed by 1 Toulene or xylene toulene seems to work better, for whatever reason, followed by 2 naptha, and finally another 'tone. Swim then basifies with NaOH, in 'tone and isohol mixture (in the pipe ), dries the stuff out and extracts out of the pipe with naptha, and filters over active charcoal through a quantitive filter. Recrystaling fb crystals and so on.  It's thus far been working far better than swims other extraction attempts, with yields back down to the 60-65%, or slightly more at times,( peg yields are down. ). The whole things kinda turned into STB meets PP/SS, now if swim can only find a way to integrate some tyvek Swim felt like extracting fb in pipe with the naptha, may have been picking up a little more bad stuff however, but hasn't tried it with shorter times etc. swim has also toyed with the idea of adding some active carbon to the basing boil, but the stuff looks so much like gunpowder, swim hasn't brought himself to do it yet. For the past few weeks swim's only fire/explosion, was not solvent related, just a mishap while attempting to steam remaining pseudo from previously extracted pills, cleaning gups and lye off the walls does tend to make one re-evalute goals. (the whole thing doesn't seem to work thus far anyway) As far as mixing in pipe goes, swim never thought about it much, but gives it a good shake, before dropping it in the hot water, and kinda rolls it around with some big channel locks while it heats, so far so good.   The whole deal uses less solvents, works better, and smells better than conventional open pot boiling, and is less troublesome and more timely than solvent refluxes. It's alot like pressure cooking turnips, less time, more tender, and locks in the flavor. That is if one likes turnips, swim does, not only that but it starts making one begin looking for things to pipe boil, like an action figure in acetone. Viva la Sealed Pipe! That's all swim's got to say about that. And now for swim's last trick, funny some one mentioned glycol ether, swim absolutly has no idea about glycol ether, but has tried using glycerin as a pre-wash solvent and as a basifying media, lately. Swim learned little except, it's nasty, it has to be hotter than blue blazes to filter, and everything good or bad seems to be soluble in it, and it can mess up the inside of a microwave.  Swim fooled with it a bit because the merk mentions PEG is quite solvent in the stuff, and a smarter bee should probably look into it sometime. Glycerin really snaps up the PEG and the Goofy, both, but getting the pseudo or e back seems to be the trouble.   Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä Iä!
	zibarium (Naked) 11-03-02 03:31 No 375888		hybridization of meth-head-ology	Bookmark Reply
			the new kid (1234) on the block sounds like he may bee adding in another piece of th puzzle. zib is still after the see-thru, open bomb, with pressure supplied by depth of immmersion rather than a sealed and heated enviornment. after all, the desired increase in pressure (to allow higher temp solvent) is not a whole lot more than standard...certainly not in the leaugue of what could bee obtained with the pipe. zib is thinking in reverse on this matter...from the perspective of "well, what sort of temp/pressure thing are we really after? and to try to nail that territory...rather than sort of 'nuke' it with a set-up that can handle whatever we throw at it. in the ss/pp scenario, the downside of providing the overkill factor, is that you don't get to see the show, and it could explode the container. so, this extra 'edge' supplied by the ss/pp approach, may bee an extra edge thatis remarkably close to the normal 'edge'...and needn't involve such dangers and mysteries. submersion allows this subtle increase...and can bee effectively pre-calculated and pre-set by the depth of the medium of immersion. 2 or 3 underwater may supply all of this extra punch we need. really...some day i'll spell this out in a way we can dig.
	halfkast (Stranger) 11-04-02 15:12 No 376337		PEGSy I think I almost understand u darlin!	Bookmark Reply
			GEEZMEISTER, Very helpful response thank you! Ill head to the WAB thread and read the final responses. Here are the actual M.P's of the respective PEG, I didn't think the msds would be so kind, they normally arent. Melting Point: Melting point increases as molecular weight increases: PEG 400 = 4-8C (39-46F) PEG 600 = 20-25C (68-77F) PEG1500 = 44-48C (111-118F) PEG 4000 = 54-58C (129-136F) PEG 6000 = 56-63C (133-145F) It's highly water soluble you say, and I have no reason to dispute that. It is soluble in aromatic hydrocarbons and there is no reason to dispute that, but the aromatic hydrocarbons do not dissolve it at room temperature, so that backs up the information that it is only just plain soluble. I think I saw tiny amounts of goo starting to come away from the powder/turp interface at around 40-80C (guessing here based on time, but the turps wasn't boiling). At this point all the PEGS had reached their m.p., but were still too dense. Even at the b.p. of the turps the PEGS still wouldn't let go easily, hence seeing the pe still attached to it in the bucket of water (waiting on your opinion for this, thought I may aswell discuss PEGS here since this guy has a mad PEGS problem), the pe was visible because the pe isn't soluble in the PEGS solution, and the PEGS solution is transparent. kinda cool party trick when you think about it, a highly water soluble salt clearly visible in water, "How is it done?". a test for PEG? Well, could you simply take <gram of your non-polar soaked, acetone rinsed and dried mess. Proceed with a mini anhydrous alcohol extraction (or your WAB) of it through a filter paper, or too busy, or unfeasable idea? I tried this last night on a mineral turps soaked, acetone washed, microwave dried sample of aussie white 60mg sooda. On evaporation I got a small poorly alligned set of almost parallel crystals nigh impossible to scrape up, I scraped it with the tip of a razor - white powder + plasticy goo. PEG was still there? Is this the solid or oil form, or maybe even both? I have taken the mother batch and boiled it for >5min in my aromatic hydrocarbon, mineral turpentine. I decanted the mineral turps in to a clean pre-prepared bucket of cold tap water. Floating on the surface of the water I noticed "rings" of white. I think the rings are uncrystallised factory powdered pe, attached to the perimiter of the clear viscuous PEG liquid. What do you think? Aswell as the tint to your xylene have you seen anything like I've described? (I noticed a slight yellowy orangy browny tint too) If you think yes then maybe LONG well stirred boils are what to prescribe for PEG. The finely powdered thing is great too. Add to that a WIDE pot to boil in, and a thin depth of pill mass. Wear thick gardens gloves and a face visor if you do do that, eyes don't back back if you damage them. And now for swim's last trick, funny some one mentioned glycol ether, swim absolutly has no idea about glycol ether, but has tried using glycerin as a pre-wash solvent and as a basifying media, lately. Swim learned little except, it's nasty, it has to be hotter than blue blazes to filter, and everything good or bad seems to be soluble in it, and it can mess up the inside of a microwave.  Swim fooled with it a bit because the merk mentions PEG is quite solvent in the stuff, and a smarter bee should probably look into it sometime. Glycerin really snaps up the PEG and the Goofy, both, but getting the pseudo or e back seems to be the trouble. cthulhujr, Well now that you say that, glycol ether aswell as sounding like something that would dissolve PEG, also sounds like something that would dissolve pe. I'm still getting around to the GE, I will tell you what happens. I think brake cleaner is another solvent which is worth looking in to, aswell as engine degreaser. Brake fluid uses poly gycols, well DOT 1 does, which is the one I looked at. zib is thinking in reverse on this matter...from the perspective of "well, what sort of temp/pressure thing are we really after? and to try to nail that territory...rather than sort of 'nuke' it with a set-up that can handle whatever we throw at it. in the ss/pp scenario, the downside of providing the overkill factor Me too.. looking at the m.p of PEGS. Plus, at much higher than the relevant aromatics we're talking about you reach the point which pe decomposses. drawfer, I really like your pipe idea.. but for low b.p solvents like acetone and such, not PEGSY like geezmeister said you need mobility for this PEG crap, is this what you use it for mainly(acetone)? Ill make one too! written:"drawfers pride and joy" I better end this post here, goodluck payin2much!
	geezmeister (Bee of the Month) 11-04-02 18:44 No 376377		good points	Bookmark Reply
			Even at the b.p. of the turps the PEGS still wouldn't let go easily, hence seeing the pe still attached to it in the bucket of water (waiting on your opinion for this, thought I may aswell discuss PEGS here since this guy has a mad PEGS problem), the pe was visible because the pe isn't soluble in the PEGS solution, and the PEGS solution is transparent. kinda cool party trick when you think about it, a highly water soluble salt clearly visible in water, "How is it done?". This is how the PEG works as a time release agent. It is completely miscible in water; that is not to say that is dissolves completely in water. It obviously hangs together long enough to hold that pseudo HCl for up to twelve hours before the salt is uncovered and becomes water soluble in the bloodstream. Water, by itself, will eventually strip the PEG off of the pseudoephedrine molecule. The pseudo will then become bioavailable. Hot non-polar solvents may speed the dissolving of the PEG, and it may be that what we need to get the longer-time pegged pseudo free is a little more time with heat and solvent. Gee, ANOTHER experiment for a rainy weekend! I do not understand the way the PEG binds to the pseudo's HCl molecule. If I had a conceptual understanding of that, or an understanding of how PEG attached to meth after a reaction, I would have a better chance of finding someone who could figure this puzzle out for me. I scraped it with the tip of a razor - white powder + plasticy goo. PEG was still there? Is this the solid or oil form, or maybe even both? The PEG is still there, and still attached to the pseduo HCl...you can dissolve the PEG with xylene or tolly boils, making the pseudo HCl available for basing free of the PEG. It may be that the boils only get the shorter time duration PEG and the other PEGged pseudo-- the longer time duration part-- comes over in an A/B because of PEG's reaction to NaOH--- not because the pseudo is stripped of the salt. Could this be part of the reason why PEGged reaction fluid seem so difficult to base? I have taken the mother batch and boiled it for >5min in my aromatic hydrocarbon, mineral turpentine. I decanted the mineral turps in to a clean pre-prepared bucket of cold tap water. Floating on the surface of the water I noticed "rings" of white. I think the rings are uncrystallised factory powdered pe, attached to the perimiter of the clear viscuous PEG liquid. What do you think? Aswell as the tint to your xylene have you seen anything like I've described? (I noticed a slight yellowy orangy browny tint too)If you think yes then maybe LONG well stirred boils are what to prescribe for PEG. The finely powdered thing is great too. Add to that a WIDE pot to boil in, and a thin depth of pill mass. I have no idea what the white powder might be. Given the myriad types of gakk in the pills (and I understand yours make ours look easy) it could be anything. It could, I suppose, be pseudo HCl attached to the PEG. Or it could be some MCC or titanium dioxide along for the ride. I have not seen the rings you observed. PEG is a brown viscuous liquid. It lends a yellow tint to non-polar solvents.  Extract it from that yellow looking solvent with HCl and water and it goes brown again. In the evap dish. The characteristic of the PEG used as a time release agent--to dissolve slowly in saline solution--  suggests that multiple forms or weights of PEG is used in the time release medication, or if the encapsulation of the HCl is mechanical, some of it has to applied more thickly. I suspect the former is more likely the mechanism. This may explain why an overnight soak in xylene strips the PEG, when boiling xylene may not get all of the PEG. The long pre-basing non-polar soak recommended in the original waterless a/b write up may have been the right approach, even if taken for a different reason (safety and lack of solvent odor in the next door neighbor's nostrils). It occurs to me that the answer to the PEG problem may lie in understanding the difference between that portion of the medication that becomes bioavailable at two hours post ingestion and that portion that becomes bioavailable at eight, ten, or twelve hours. That differential, if it is PEG based, might explain why what rids the PEG from non time-release pills does not get rid of it in the time-release pills, or does not work completely or as well on the time release ones. If this comes to down to a "patience pays, you moron" answer, I'll need to kick myself.   Dwarfers pipe may be the answer to the PEG problem. Then again, it could be brake cleaner, or it may be that PEG is not the problem at all, and we are all just fools for thinking that it is. Yes. It IS Monday. Mostly harmless
	cthulhujr (Hive Bee) 11-04-02 19:49 No 376395		maybe not peg that is the trouble	Bookmark Reply
			Swim strongly suspects this is the case, but simply has branded the gakk x PEG, it maybe a combo of nasties, an "encapsulation" method, or a compound with very similar qualities to Pfed, swim knows not. This is only a short hairs suspicion. The Patent will doubtless be available for public viewing in 3 or 4 years. Iä-R'lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä Iä!
	dwarfer (Hive Addict) 11-04-02 22:20 No 376434		Geeze: mobility does not seem to be a ...	Bookmark Reply
			Geeze: mobility does not seem to be a problem: the pressure takes care of that: and if you invert the pipe (mine stands on end...), or give it a “channel lock roll”, per cthulhujr, it oughta be a vanishingly small issue. (I know it is, as a matter of fact, from other phenomenae.. ) I will post a comprehensive (to me)  PP usage thread soon, including natural plant alkaloid extraction efficiency arising from the enhanced solubility of same in superheated xylene. Flum Plower Brand..  “:<) cthulhujr, “Swim then basifies with NaOH, in 'tone and isohol mixture”, Man, with all those washes, the stank has to be pretty much gone: leave out the isohol: just fling the NaOH into the ‘tone, and direct base it: (Patent license from VE and Geeze on that one..) By the way, cthulhujr, if you use the 2" pipe you can get a 2" mixer and use it thru the PVC holed end cap ( I’m repeating..) And you will probably be able to cut down on the # washes.. (Mix between SS washes..) “:<) good luck with the glycerine..  “:<) Zib, “it’s fun to watch”: I can understand.. But if i can put a skunk into one end of a box and a kitty cat comes out the other, although I’d like to see what happens in the box, its really incidental..  “:<)  As long as person uses boiling water, common solvents (acetone, mek, tol, xy..)  No problem.. If you do the things cthulhujr does, but do the basing in the pipe without alcohol, filter the NP and gas it, I would be real real real surprised if any amended PEG or similar would be hanging around.. get your herb, while you can......”:<) dwarfer

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