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	Posts 1 - 48 of 48	Subject: The Best METHod



Whizard (Stranger) 05-15-02 22:34 No 309203	The Best METHod	Bookmark Reply
	So I hope the best and the brightest read and respond to this... If someone had access to kilos (as opposed to nano amounts) of E.HCl (hypothetically of course) and all kinds of equipment and chemicals, what would be the preferred METHod to proceed based on the following criteria: Purity Yield Reaction time Safety Consistency Dick-Hardness There is an implied preference given by the list above except that the last issue is the root cause. I have an opinion but not enough experience to make a decision based on it!!! Your Humble and Obedient Servant ... TFW I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



Stonium (Moderator) 05-16-02 00:10 No 309236	Well then...	Bookmark Reply
	So post your opinion already. This isn't a guessing game. The answer to your question is largely subjective anyway. _{Non illegitimi carborundum est.}



Hematite (Individual) 05-16-02 00:21 No 309242	without a doubt.....	Bookmark Reply
	Hypophospherous acid and I2 after plenty of preperation via research. It's not a rxn for the novice to cut his/her teeth on, but it is this person's pick in every department. In fact for a kilo of that stuff I'll hold your hand all the way through your first one!!! hehehe Regards, Hematite.



geezmeister (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 06:29 No 309349	SWIG too	Bookmark Reply
	SWIG said Hematite is right. The optimal method from each perspective has to be the hypophosphorous I2 reaction done with a slight excess of concentrated hypo. SWIG said for HALF a kilo he's not only hold your hand, he'd help you with the bio assay! An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.



Hematite (Individual) 05-16-02 07:06 No 309365	Hmm.....Competition	Bookmark Reply
	Ok then, for a kilo and a half (plus whatever amount you want to be your first go)You and geez can hold hands and I'll do your first reaction for ya and make a video for future reference! Regards, Hematite.



Stonium (Moderator) 05-16-02 09:03 No 309408	Where is winky face?	Bookmark Reply
	Ahem. Now, now you two. You forgot to include the little winky face to indicate that you're being flippant when you make such comments. Heh. C'mon. Tell Stoni you're kidding. Mkay? _{Non illegitimi carborundum est.}



dwarfer (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 09:29 No 309422	a vote for electro?	Bookmark Reply
	YES! but it's a pain in the butttttt. Next best is Birch. RP/HI gives you a hard on but then you gotta have benzo's around on the down side if you are lucky. Stoni has given it up so she don't get no vote.. ^call/me dwarfer



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 09:37 No 309424	safety=security	Bookmark Reply
	First thing is, load all that stuff up and carry it away to where no one knows where it is except those who absolutely must... By the time that transporting is done, you will likely be ready to take a break... Then, unless you want to live there for years, you will need to design a large batch process, which has very little close similarity to the stuff we humble hobbyists discuss, Or to a universities experimental lab method. Yes, you have quite the project there, could keep you busy for a while, LOL. Better get some groceries and such too. if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 10:01 No 309432	My Opinion	Bookmark Reply
	Is not based on experience but only hearsay most honorable moderator ... for what it is worth is catalytic hydrogenation ... shaken not stirred. And your opinion? I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 10:39 No 309452	Electro Vote?	Bookmark Reply
	There is so much controversy regarding this METHod! Some say it is bullshit others say go ahead and think so if you want. As for me I think it is part of a still mostly untapped frontier … Electrochemistry (Oh yes). There seem to be a few common errors in the recipes currently in the underground literature which kill or greatly demoralize the output percentages: · Use of open cells · Use of undivided cells · Contraceptive based cell divider material with unacceptably high dielectric constant (RUBBERS BUBBA!) · Failure to provide an inert gas cover for the reaction (this is very important in a reduction since oxygen will ionize at the voltage levels required due to the above cell divider). My other bitch is the reaction times at currents under 1 ampere. I wanna get a 300 V@100 AMP power supply!! Think big silver Bus bars (Makes my dick hard!) It would also be nice if I had the proper glass tinker toys (erection set) to put together very professional looking cell sized for synthetic purposes. The other piece of the puzzle is good instrumentation the famous Potentiostat/ Galvanostat It will do many things including control and monitor a constant voltage reduction. It is an important research tool which everybee should have! Has anybody tried this reduction with a cathode made of bronze screen plated with palladium? How about with a graphite cathode “plated” with palladium black? I have not been able to find all your posts Dr. Dwarfer, but I admire you ingenuity and breadth of knowledge (OH FUCK OH MY!) When I figure out how to use this POSTER THINGGY I have some very nice pics and such to go along with this!! I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 10:52 No 309458	Electro BS	Bookmark Reply
	Igor says he can think of no other method nearly as likely to consume large amounts of time and effort and money and 99% likely to result in a smelly mess of no value whatsoever... if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 11:25 No 309479	Knowledge = Power	Bookmark Reply
	Maybe ... but it is a very powerful tool in the hands of a prepared and understanding BEE! The basic reference is "Synthetic Organic Electrochemistry" 2nd Edition Albert J. Fry (Wiley Interscience 1989) This book is expensive ($140!!) and is not easy reading, but is worth the extra time spent (better spent reading then tweaking!} I think that Fester ommitted key details and this is why so many failures! I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 11:29 No 309480	Simplicity=success	Bookmark Reply
	An H bubbler, operating under slight pressure above atm, in the presence of a good catalyst, would be clean, fairly efficient, and safe, albeit SLOWWWWWW. if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



Payin2Much (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 11:39 No 309484	Phesterlytic Hydrogenation???	Bookmark Reply
	Man, if you had such access to chems, why don't you go to P2P. From the way the old timers boast, I'll bet you could get twice as much for it. I was so excited about the Festerlytic Hydrogenation (what ever happened to Uncle Fester, huh?) that I boughta plating generator. At the Zonez I discovered a thread that had Uncle Fester bemoaning the illegitimacy of that method due to the GAKK that was being put into the pills these days. That was a year ago, and we've made some real progress (THANKS WAREAMI & DWARFINGER) regarding the cleaning of the pills. Now SWIP hasn't done anything but Birch because he does not consider the RP/I method worth learning based on: 1)the lower yeilds, and 2)the fact that extraction & thorough cleaning is an absolute necessity. For Bircher SWIP, extraction takes 10 times the time & effort than does his rxn. He can do 10 oz. at a time, and if in a pinch, doesn't even need to extract. A good cleaning will suffice. A 10 oz rxn only takes about 1 1/2 hours if gupping. When gupping, he can bee done from redz to bubbling post rxn broth in 3 1/2 hours. It isn't as kleen as his extracted goodies, but when expediency is tantamount, the Birch is the *ONLY* way to go! What a Long, Strange Trip it's Been



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 11:59 No 309493	RE:Phesterlytic Hydrogenation???	Bookmark Reply
	But remember this question was about getting there from Ephhy! There is definely something about P2P! (is it just an urban myth or is recemic you know what better then the other?) I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 12:06 No 309497	obsessive behavior and side effects	Bookmark Reply
	and obvious gluttony to excess are usually the reasons why the "old racemic" is preferred by some. The molecule is the molecule, unless you are congested. Purity is the key. if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 12:17 No 309504	Purity	Bookmark Reply
	So what method has the best potential purity (high yeild, less byproducts (which are easy to separate))? I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 12:29 No 309508	Depends	Bookmark Reply
	That would likely depend on the skill of the designers and operators of the process, more than the process itself. HI and Birch are both dirty, but birch is much more likely to result in high yields, theoretically speaking. They both are relatively quick. But what is the hurry? If all the ducks are in a row? if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



dchef (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 12:32 No 309509	birch	Bookmark Reply
	Birch is by far rhe most forgiving, highest yeild cleanest product for the amount of work swid has used to date. Just make sure and clean your pills. Swid has never been a pill chucker, but from knowing a few clean the feed.



dchef (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 12:33 No 309510	HI and Birch are both dirty	Bookmark Reply
	Not hardly if done with pride the birch is soooper clean.



Whizard (Stranger) 05-16-02 12:34 No 309511	Birch	Bookmark Reply
	But anhydrous ammonia is almost a war gas! Not to mention lithium solutions in it! Forgiving ... may the reaction but not the supporting cast! I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 12:39 No 309514	Large?	Bookmark Reply
	HI on a large scale is pretty obnoxious too, and can be thrilling sometimes, is what Igor has heard from the other hunchbacked misfits who dabble in such things. DESIGN! if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



Kitchenmagician (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 12:41 No 309516	Depends	Bookmark Reply
	on your skill as a chemist or just gonna bee a cook! If your familair with the Birch then it has its advantages. The easiest to learn, at least to SWIK, is RP/I2, IMO, which ain't worth much. Boy that was an awful lot of commas.KM Special Prayers to our fallen bees and their families :( KM



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 12:50 No 309523	Living Proof	Bookmark Reply
	...that the birch can be performed by a trained monkey with SCBA gear, eye protection, a pickle bucket, a stick, and a few jars, is found all over the US. That is not to say that it cannot be adapted to a skillful approach. P2M, and several others are a guiding light for them (pill-chuckers!) that we have reason to bee proud of here. (Schmoooz...) if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



wareami (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 13:04 No 309528	Ummm Excuse Me BUTT!	Bookmark Reply
	Some say it is bullshit others say go ahead and think so if you want. As for me I think it is part of a still mostly untapped frontier … My sincerest apologies here...BUTT I could not read this thread any further than this so if it's been addressed...again I do apologize!!!! My good Compadrè Geezmeister is an authority(excuse the terminology thare) on this subject...especially since Rhodium has seen fit to have validated it's authentication by including this synth on His site...Read It! Understand it!!!Take WATT you need and LEAVE the rest! Simple...VERY Simple!!! Need I say more??? Try it You'll like it... and to those ignored by Ware's haste, Ware'll be back after his examination of the rest of this thread! I will say that the first few entry's to this thread were humorous even if they bordered on violation of the Hive rules! Time can bee short so Ibee will be living like this moment may be his last, like life should bee lived anEways! With Cation mind you...... Oh fuck I forgot the "Ü" in that "SEE" word. Much Respect! In Memory of ChemGrrl and Mrs. VinnyC and all the Angels Who Continuously touch this heart.......... Peace_{of the}^re_a_c_t_i_o_n Have FUN-Bee SAFE -The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ô¿ôWareami



dchef (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 13:16 No 309536	Living Proof	Bookmark Reply
	panda might need to lay off the shit for a while.



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 13:21 No 309537	What? Did I say?	Bookmark Reply
	???, Did I put down a skillful Birch, I do not think so? Nor did I say you were oversensitive, dchef? a bit grumpy today? Or do you maintain the average farmbirching pill chucker knows what they are doing? Ah, I think I see, the difference arises in the definition of a "clean" reaction, right? if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



dchef (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 13:38 No 309542	What? Did I say?	Bookmark Reply
	Oops guess dchef took what was said the wrong way. And it really doesnt matter which reaction is used, it is the pride put into it that makes the difference. And yes I'm having a bad day but thats another story, more couch material if dchef decides to tell it.



pandemonium (Hive Addict) 05-16-02 13:43 No 309546	Well anyway	Bookmark Reply
	Anyway, you are likely right, but it is the damned coffee that is to blame, in my case... if you know the enemy and know yourself, the victory is not at risk. Sun Tzu



WizardX (Wizard Master) 05-16-02 19:03 No 309705	10-30%Pd/C	Bookmark Reply
	Whizard: Hi! I feel like I'm talking to myself! If and when you can get what you claim and 10-30% Pd/C catalyst, then talk to me via post message.



VideoEditor (Hive Bee) 05-16-02 20:02 No 309761	Hypo	Bookmark Reply
	I'd go with hypophosphorous I2 reaction done with an excess of concentrated hypo. And for a Kilo and a Half I'll edit Hematite's Video while You and geez hold hands and I'll hire someone to hold your dick the entire time. Real Men Don't Preview Their Edits



SALTiGOT (Newbee) 05-16-02 22:11 No 309798	crush&gas	Bookmark Reply
	swis,tends to agree that a skilfull birch has the color alone (that makes his dick hard.) have seen a few of those "cooks" just crushing&gassing there pills. If pride (and alot of time) are not what one is in for. [black] well yall know the rest. not to say there arn't times that a quick c&g [black] will cure what ales the bones. if one takes there time in processing.it's a beautiful thing have tank will travel



callen (Newbee) 05-16-02 22:49 No 309802	salt bridge	Bookmark Reply
	The traditional alternative is the salt bridge. Two containers are needed, plus a U-tube. The electrodes are placed, one in each container. One container holds the reaction mixture, while the other holds a dilute water/sulfuric acid solution (one or two drops to provide conductivity from that electrode). The U-tube contains a solution of potassium chloride, and is stoppered at both ends with cotton. One leg is immersed in the reaction mixture container, and the other leg is immersed in the H2SO4/H2O container. Thus, a conduit is provided for the current to flow without the need of a condom.



callen (Newbee) 05-16-02 23:08 No 309810	P2P	Bookmark Reply
	In the old days,circum 1980's. 360 ml. P2P, 360 ml. 40% aqueous methyl amine. Reduce with 1-oz. aluminum foil and 2-gms. mercuric chloride. Extract. Crystallize.



Hematite (Individual) 05-16-02 23:34 No 309818	What is it you really want to know here?	Bookmark Reply
	After reading your post on hydrogenation I went back to look at your list to be sure I answered correctly, two things come to mind straight away. 1) Purity Yield Reaction time Safety Consistency Are you really interested in the above list, around which this post was supposedly focused? 2)If you are in fact interested in the above list (and a good list it is) and if as you say, you do not have personal experience in the lab, why does it seem to me that you are less interested in gaining invaluable knowledge about practical synthesis that has seen the collective input of many hard working bee persons, and then been fine tuned and streamlined by even more bee persons, culminating in a small number of rxns with a bare minimum of variables and any number of technical advisors only too willing to assist a willing worker bee................as it appears you are interested in an area that has proven itself frustrating to many people and most definately falls way short of your list of desirables? I'm musing in type out loud, no real need to answer whatever it was I just asked. Regards, Hematite.



geezmeister (Hive Addict) 05-17-02 07:38 No 309941	credits	Bookmark Reply
	Wareami gives Geezmeister credit that should be attributed to Mnkyboy77, who authored the writeup. Geez thinks some of the tips he passed on from his buddy SWIG helped Mnkyboy, but give credit where credit is due-- he did the writeup. If Geez had worked up the notes he got from SWIG it would have been eighty three pages long and loaded full of asides about lunch, politics, and injustice -- instead of photos. SWIG's tips were of value to Mnkyboy mainly due to sage advice received from Hematite, whose comments brought understanding the process full circle for SWIG. The Hive works that way. Like a coop of non-hierarchical peers with slightly differing areas of expertise! The point of the lead post in this thread is the combination of factors considered-- under those criteria, which synth is "best." Under those criteria, Geez says hypo/I2. If we consider availability of precursors, you get different answers. And yes, Geez was hypothetically speaking and actually joking when he offered to personally appear, hold hands, and help with the bio assay. No one with kilos of E lacks for advice or assistance, so he figured the question was purelyhypothetical to begin with. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.



Hematite (Individual) 05-17-02 10:48 No 310009	full circle	Bookmark Reply
	The bright light of understanding for this little black duck was made available as a barely concealed switch found in the writings of one fudgecleanmonkey, the beauty of a circle is the unlimited number of sections that can be added, all they have to do is bend in the right direction I guess. Regards, Hematite.



Payin2Much (Hive Bee) 05-17-02 18:53 No 310186	UTFSE	Bookmark Reply
	Just reminiscing, I remember posting the same query on September 1 of last year Payin2Much: "RP/I Vs. BIRCH" (Stimulants). SWIP only had a couple of fiascos under his belt, and was wondering WTF he was doing. Bull headed SOB that he is, he wanted to know if he might have a better time playing with RP/I. He came to the conclusion that the answer is......... DRUM ROLL....... ACQUISITION. Whizard, you might want to see what the bees had to say about it a year ago. What a Long, Strange Trip it's Been



mnkyboy77 (Hive Bee) 05-17-02 20:19 No 310222	Thanx	Bookmark Reply
	Thanx Geez. That write up on Rhodiums page was mearly an attempt to put back a fraction of that which has was given. A complete circle indeed. Since the hypo/I2 method was only laying dorment, it was felt that it needed to be taken off the shelf, dusted off, rebound and placed back to the front of the shelves. The hints and posts that inspired the primates where included for many reasons, mostling that of giving credit where it was do. Back to the point: Never tried the birch, so cant compair. As far as between rp and hypo, the hypo wins hands down...Purity, simplicity and the whole process can be related back to the rp method, sort of--The hypo way is magnitudes cleaner! Its 3 o'clock...Do you know where your *Matrice-Back* is?



Whizard (Stranger) 05-19-02 13:11 No 310901	Experience	Bookmark Reply
	By lack of experience I meant I have not run every possible one of these METHods. I have substantial lab experience. Does that change your response? I was canvasing bees for a consensus of the method of choice! I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



dchef (Hive Bee) 05-19-02 13:21 No 310907	I was canvasing bees	Bookmark Reply
	Almost as many answers to that would come as there are experienced bee's as everybee has their own little tweaks to their chosen method. Go with the gut and availibility of precursors



Whizard (Newbee) 05-20-02 23:49 No 311732	GUT Says	Bookmark Reply
	Hydrogenation ... what does yours say? I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



Whizard (Newbee) 05-20-02 23:53 No 311733	Resistence	Bookmark Reply
	How much voltage is needed to cross such a divder .. This is the classic way to do it! But you want to have a high current to get done and the power suopplies tend to get expensive with HV/HC cobined. I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!



Gizmo23 (Newbee) 05-21-02 14:26 No 312112	Catalytic Hydrogenation?	Bookmark Reply
	I´m just wondering, why does no one like the catalytic hydrogenation like described in http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/meth.pdc.html ?



wareami (Hive Bee) 05-22-02 21:17 No 312838	Yikes!!!	Bookmark Reply
	My sincerest apologies for not including the author of the write-up on the Hypo Method!!! Mnkyboy77 knows that the exclusion of credit was not intentional I hope...Ibeeware did have the priviledge and honor of being one of the first view the draft before it was made public and couldn't help but be impressed, not only for impressed by the compilation, but by the synth itself and it's usability whereas it helps in the aquisition department for those that need it. The Kidz have yet to explore this method and have had half a mind to for quite some time....One day they will have a Full Mind and quit being sooo absentminded!!!:•þ Get Ready...Get Set...GOOOOooooooooo! Peace_{of the}^re_a_c_t_i_o_n Have FUN-Bee SAFE -The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ô¿ôWareami



mnkyboy77 (Hive Bee) 05-23-02 11:28 No 313234	Broken Heart: Needs Mending	Bookmark Reply
	Wareami...Worry not about the exclusion of credit...It happens to us all, some more than others. LOL (Sorry...but that image says it all!) SWIM's recommendation is to aquire all the suplies for all the 12+ methods. Set up each method on a bench, and run 'em. Take notes. When all the rxns have compleated and everything is done, (dont forget to clean up), test each methods end product. With having done that, one could very easly decide which way is for them. (Not only that, but that would make one hell-of-a write up...Pro's and Cons of each method...Yields and quality) Simply put...Its completly an individual choice/preferance. *Wait, did you hear that? I think someone is out side!!!*



wareami (Hive Addict) 05-23-02 21:07 No 313438	ForgetMe Knots!	Bookmark Reply
	Mnkyboy: As for the mending...well...All my So-ing thread has ForGetMe Knots in it and if I ever get it untangled I'll send ya some...in the MEANtime,I couldn't agree more with your suggestion... Usually...if something peaks the interest of the Nutz that much and they cannot find the answers in TFSE, they will simply gather as much info as they can(however tedious and time consuming) and run the experiments themselves! It not only eliminates alot of the assumptions and variables, but it also leads to practice and valuable "Hands On" Field experience that cannot be replaced by Book Knowledge! Get in there and SWIM around is all I say! It's the only way to test the waters! And for newbees...It also MOONlights as a getting to know you tool when posting results and opens the door "Properly"! Peace_{of the}^re_a_c_t_i_o_n Have FUN-Bee SAFE -The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ô¿ôWareami



Whizard (Newbee) 05-25-02 16:28 No 314187	Catalytic Hydrogenation	Bookmark Reply
	SWIMs Aunt Emily just got herself a Parr and a tank of of fusion feedstock, some precious metal on activated charcoal and so on... Expect a report shortly. This is real science dude (like the guys at Merck used to do)! Oh Fuck Yes! I dunno, but I been told ... You never slow down, you never grow old!

	http://www.the-hive.ws/	mailto:hyperlab@the-hive.ws forum@the-hive.ws



Lycaeum Erowid Rhodium

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