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	All 34 posts	Subject: Extraction Technique: The Full Turps Cure

	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-26-02 10:24 No 337420		Extraction Technique: The Full Turps Cure (Rated as: excellent)	Bookmark Reply
			The “Full Turps Cure:” (Placebo’s technique restated.) materials required OTC pseudoephedrine tablets hotplate fan pyrex evaporation dish funnels, cotton balls, coffee filters stirring rod non-polar solvent of choice mineral turps acetone alcohol of choice beakers or collection jars Abstract of Procedure turps soak non-polar solvent boils until clean acetone boils until clean dry extract 3x with alcohol of choice evaporate to near dry, acetone flash recrystalize Statement of Procedure: 01) Grind pills thoroughly.  Soak for twelve hours in mineral turpentine.  Alternatively soak for twelve hours in odorless mineral spirits, tolulene, or xylene.  Decant, discard solvent. 02)  Transfer pill mass to suitable shallow bowl or evaporation dish. 03)  Cover to twice its depth in non-polar solvent of choice (recommended solvent: mineral spirits).  Place on heating element in a location with adequate ventilation with a fan blowing across the top of the container. Heat slowly with continuous stirring until the solvent reaches a gentle boil; adjust heat to maintain a gentle boil, with constant stirring, for five minutes. Remove from heat.  Decant solvent.  Use “panning” motion to separate as much solvent as possible while retaining pill mass. Alternatively, filter the solvent and pill mass through three coffee filters; retain pill mass, return to dish.  Examine filtered solvent. It should be cloudy. 3) Repeat mineral spirits boils until the mineral spirits are clear when decanted.  Test the clear, decanted mineral spirits by adding water; if anything precipitates out with the addition of water, repeat mineral spirits boil until the solvent is clean when decanted.  Expect three boils to be necessary; dirtier pills or poor technique may require additional boils. 4) Cover the pill mass with three times its volume of dry acetone.  Slowly bring to a gentle boil, with constant stirring.  Boil for five minutes, allow to settle, decant.  Continue with acetone boils until the decanted acetone is clean.  Test for contaminants by adding water to decanted acetone and observing whether adulterants precipitate out.  If so, continue acetone boils until acetone until it decants clear without adulterant precipitating with the addition of water.  Expect three boils to be sufficient, depending on pill content and operator technique.  5) Allow pill mass to dry thoroughly. 6) Transfer pill mass to beaker or glass container of sufficient size to allow the addition of at least three times the pill mass’ volume of alcohol of choice.  MeOH and/or denatured alcohol are recommended OH's.  EtOH may be used if dried. Isopropyl OH may be used if dried.  Allow pill mass to soak with agitation or stirring for twenty minutes. 7) Prepare a funnel by placing cotton balls in the neck of the funnel and fitting the funnel with three coffee filters.  Decant alcohol from pill mass through three coffee filters and allow to drain into a clean glass container. 8) Return pill mass to beaker and repeat step 6, except the time for soaking should be reduced to ten minutes.  Decant as before. 9) Soak pill mass a third time as in step 6, except decant after five minutes.  (Save pill mass until final yield is determined to be satisfactory). 10) Place collected alcohol in evaporating dish and evaporate over very low heat, with a fan or hair dryer  blowing across the surface until almost completely evaporated.  Flood with dried acetone.  Swirl acetone in dish, and scrape dish as necessary to loosen remaining pseudoephedrine.  Decant acetone (or filter through three coffee filters.)  Allow to dry. 11) Heat dried ISO alcohol to boiling.  Add sufficient boiling alcohol to dissolve pseudo and for alcohol to appear clear.  Filter through three coffee filters.  If alcohol solution remains cloudy, filter through three coffee filters and Charmin plug.  Rinse filters with small amount of fresh alcohol.  Reduce volume of alcohol in evaporation dish at until first signs of crystal formation appear.  Add just enough alcohol by drops to dissolve surface skin, add equal volume of dry acetone, cover with air tight lid or saran wrap, place in refrigerator. 12) Allow crystals to form; decant liquid and quickly rinse crystals with dry acetone.  Add rinse acetone to remaining liquid and evaporate down to saturated alcohol, add acetone, and allow crystals to form again.  Rinse these. 13) Combine crystals.  Re-dissolve in boiling alcohol and repeat crystallization. Harvest final crystals.  Photograph with digital camera.  Discard, as these crystals may tempt you to do something illegal, and this board does not approve of or encourage such activities. Notes and Comments: The Post is not original with the poster, who makes no claim to its creation, refinement, or utility.  SWIG first used the process after reading Placebo’s post concerning the turps cure.  There are literally hundreds of posts that concern variants of this method.  This post is presented as an extraction technique post to the Stimulants forum whose purpose is to help simplify the searches concerning such techniques, provide as much as possible a straight-forward expression of the basic technique,  and provide a thread for their discussion, notes on effectiveness, warnings, and exceptions. 1) As with all pill extraction, the finer the pills are ground, the more likely the extraction will be complete and successful.  2) Mineral turps as used by Placebo is a non- polar solvent with turpenes added.  Gum spirits of turpentine is not the same thing.  Turpentine substitutes containing xylene and other solvents with added turpenes are considered the equivalent of Placebo’s “turps.” The poster acknowledges the contributions of numerous bees who have noted that soaks in mineral spirits, xylene or tolulene also work; SWIG’s experience confirms this.  Poster notes that some bees report boiling the solvent hastens the removal of the povidone.  Poster does not dispute the finding. 3) Boiling any flammable solvent is an extremely dangerous practice.  At no time should any solvent be heated oven an open flame or on any apparatus that is capable of producing a spark, and this includes defective or damaged electric hot plates.  Adequate ventilation is required. This should not be done in a closed environment due to risk of explosion and/or fire and due to health concerns regarding inhalation of solvent fumes.  The procedure should not be done without the constant use of a fan positioned to blow across the solvent.  The fan will disburse the vapor, reduce the risk of fire and explosion,  and reduce the surface temperature of the solvent.  The solvent should be heated to a gentle boil, and once such a boil is achieved the temperature should be reduced to maintain the boil.  If the pill mass sticks too quickly to the evaporation dish, the temperature is probably too high.  A rule of thumb is that constant stirring is needed to keep the pill mass from sticking, but the stirring should not be a matter of scraping the pill mass from the pan.  Some solvents can be heated to a temperature high enough to caramelize the pill mass.  Note the procedure does not call for boiling the pill mass in turps.  The unpleasant aroma of the turpenes is not the only reason for this.  Some of the turpentine substitutes have a boiling point high enough to caramelize the pill mass.  Be forewarned.  The temperature at which the solvent begins to boil is sufficient for our solubility purposes.  The increased solubility at higher temperatures depends on pressurization as Dwarfer will readily advise, and not on an increase in temperature or rate of boiling.  Cautions regarding boiling solvents should be heeded in particular when acetone is involved as one does not wish to experience what happens when you ignite several hundred milliliters of boiling acetone. 5) Any solvent used should be dry.  This is particularly true with acetone, which should be dried before use.  Most OTC acetone contains significant amounts of water.  Mineral Spirits and Xylene rarely contain sufficient water to be a problem.  Tolulene has more affinity for water than xylene; whether this presents a problem is outside SWIG’s personal knowledge as he has difficulty obtaining Tolulene locally and has little practical experience using it for this purpose. 6) Testing the decanted solvent for dissolved gakks is only necessary when they appear to be clear.  The poster notes that crashing the gakk with cool water in the hot solvent seems to work, and has never explored other methods aside from allowing the solvent to cool, which also allows most gakks to precipitate to some degree.  The method of determining whether the solvent is still extracting trash is by no means exclusive or exhaustive.  7) Allowing the pill mass to dry thoroughly before extracting the pseudoephedrine is believed by many to improve yields. Poster has never verified this. 8) The recommended times for OH soaks will vary from one person to the next.  Many recommend long soak times, other short soak times.  The principle behind the recommendation of this poster was observed in a series of alcohol  extractions of OH extractable OTC decongestants which recorded the yield and relative purity of the extracted pseudoephedrine, and the presence of waxes, oils or other by products which impacted the RP/I2 reaction.  The notes were not retained, and were intentionally destroyed.  The recommended soak times are based on SWIG’s hands-on observations that MeOH will dissolve more than pseudoephedrine from the tablets if given the opportunity either due to too little pseudo being left to dissolve or the OH given too much time to dissolve other substances which are not as readily soluble in the alcohol as pseudoephedrine.  One hundred percent extraction of pseudoephedrine by OH from OTC pills is regarded by the poster as myth and misleading.  The poster considers any OH extraction of pseudoephedrine yielding 80% or more of the available pseudoephedrine to be of suspect purity, probably loaded with inerts from the pill mass. 9) Many report success with extractions with heated alcohols.  Heating alcohols in pills containing stearates may have adverse impact on yield and purity of the pseudoephedrine so extracted.  The increase in solvency of the alcohol caused by heating also makes the gakks present in the pill mass more soluble in the alcohol.  Heating of the alcohol should be considered with regard to  the ingredients in the pill mass. 10) This technique does not list as a step placing the alcohol in a freezer to assist in removing waxes or gels.  This is not to be considered a statement that the step is not of benefit in the process.  SWIG’s experiences with the “full turps cure” have seldom had a wax problem. Any glycol that survives the soaks and repeated solvent boils may be dealt with by recrystalizing the extracted pseudoephedrine.  If you believe a cold environment will help obtain a cleaner product, you should follow your instinct.  Freezing the alcohol will not be a detriment and may provide a benefit.   11) Evaporation of the alcohol should be done over low heat and with a fan or hair dryer blowing across the dish.  There are a number of variants for drying, from using no heat to using heatlamps under glass.  You can burn the pseudo with too much heat, and the heat can get away from you very quickly.  Do not walk off while the pseudo is evaporating, as this is an invitation to its destruction by heat. 12) Acetone flashing with dry acetone when the alcohol nears complete evaporation is a “final step” for evaporation and will help remove some impurities.  Seegeezmeister: "Re: Acetone Crashing" (Stimulants) for this poster’s suggestions on the flashing technique. 13) Recrystalizing the pseudo ephedrine will help isolate and exclude waxes and glycols that sneak through, and will help isolate and remove various cellulose fillers that may have also been extracted with the pseudoephedrine.  Dry ISO alcohol is recommended by the poster for this purpose.  Some of the potential gakks are highly water soluble and the dryness of the alcohol used in this process is a great benefit. 14) The poster has never included a TCE wash as part of this procedure and has no personal knowledge of the benefits or detriments of such a step, or any idea whether such a wash would be beneficial or detrimental to the process.  Advantages and Disadvantages: The near-universality of this procedure is its great advantage.  If done properly it will clean most pills available OTC.  Properly done, the full turps cure yields satisfactorily clean pseudoephedrine for the purposes generally discussed here.  This method is a viable extraction technique for those unfamiliar or uncomfortable with A/B extraction techniques. The process does use a volume of solvents, is dangerous to person and property, presents a serious risk of fire and explosion if not properly done, can subject the pill mass to temperature that can damage the pseudoephedrine sought to be extracted, and creates a noticeable solvent odor capable of being detected.  It is rather time consuming and requires constant attention. Known to be effective with: most pills.  Tested by this poster on pills containing the following ingredients: Pseudoephedrine HCl 60 mg Tripolidine 2.5 mg corn starch Flavor Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose lactose Magnesium Stearate Polyethylene glycol potato starch povidone sucrose titanium dioxide patent no. 5098715 210CA01 __________________________ Pseudoephedrine HCl 60 mg Tripolidine 2.5 mg Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose Magnesium Stearate Polyethylene glycol starch titanium dioxide may also contain: cellulose Dioctyl Sodium Sulfosuccinate Hydroxypropyl cellulose lactose Polysorbate 80 povidone powdered cellulose pregelatinized starch silica gel silicon dioxide sodium starch glycolate stearic acid _______________________________ Pseudoephedrine HCl 60 mg Tripolidine 2.5 mg carnuba wax corn starch flavor Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose lactose Magnesium Stearate Polyethylene glycol povidone sucrose _________________________________ Pseudoephedrine Hcl 120 mg Candellia Wax Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose Magnesium Stearate Microcrystalline Cellulose Polyethylene glycol povidone titanium dioxide Pseudoephedrine Hcl 240 mg Candellia Wax Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose Magnesium Stearate Microcrystalline Cellulose Polyethylene glycol povidone titanium dioxide red hots, generic and name brand. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	catfish (Newbee) 07-26-02 14:49 No 337474		SWIC has...	Bookmark Reply
			SWIC has mini-thicks: ephedrine 25 mg guaifenesin 200 mg Inactives: colloidal silicon dioxide croscaramellose sodium magnesium stearate maltodextrin microcrystalline cellulose povidone pregelatined corn starch stearic acid For educational purposes only, SWIC will see if this will work on Ephedrine, as it it should. ...who wants honey, as long as there's some money...
	epistemologicide (Hive Bee) 07-26-02 18:47 No 337532		fumes	Bookmark Reply
			great wright up mate, all those attempting watch for the fumes doing this, they suck ass hatred of ontological wastes, and the marathon!!!! i cook to save the planet!!
	xboXer 07-27-02 03:00		hmm yeah but (Rated as: UTFSE!)	Bookmark Reply
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-27-02 07:22 No 337717		Historically	Bookmark Reply
			I didn't run TFSE to check the posts on the dates, but I really think that "Go to Whoah" was posted before Placebo told the hive about the accident with mineral turps. Polymers came later. I believe the consensus of the Hive Extractomania Society is that the full turps cure, in its more or less current restatement, remains the most universal of cures for pill gakks. (At least for a few more days.)I also believe the current thinking of the Comedy Central Stimulants section has been modified a good deal since the posts that you rely on went up. There is a great deal more recent information about dealing with polymers and newer pill formulations on the board posted this year. Use the search engine. This post is the second in a series of writeups trying to centralize and organize the extraction methodology in use by the Extractomania Society of the Hive Stimulants Forum in the hope of translating our otherwise non-translatable doublespeak into decipherable English. SWIG recommends filtering the red out early and often, recommends you UTFSE for red phos cleaning techniques, notes the question is decidedly off topic, and has no more add. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	bee186 (Stranger) 07-28-02 14:14 No 338164		geezmeister, killer report.	Bookmark Reply
			geezmeister, killer report. Some residual questions I have that maybe you know the answer to, so ill ask here. 1. A solvents solvency increases as it is heated, so how is it that you can boil the solvent/pill mass and have confidence that the pseudo itself doesnt now dissolve and get decanted off with the gak? 2. The examples you've used for tested pills seems odd to me, none of them are just straight 60mg pe, although you do make reference to red hots, should white 60mg generic and non-gens be treated the same as redhots except without the anti-reddending instructions?  3. Is it known which solvents used here removes what, and at what temps? because for me if I had that information, I'd find that more practable. Just as a learning guide even to go with the full Cure as you go along. 4. Is there a minimalist approach to pill cleaning? is there a middle ground, and at what cost post rxn? Is it known what infectants cause what problems specifically post-rxn? 5.(supplementary) Is a mother fuckers brothers mother, a fucken son of a guns mother? or its owner? or none of the above?
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-28-02 15:26 No 338196		Welll....	Bookmark Reply
			1) Pseudoephedrine hydrochloride is not soluble in non-polar solvents, whether or not they are hot. It also is not partiuclarly soluble in dry acetone (damp acetone is another thing altogether). It is therefore an essentially safe assumption that these solvents will not extract pseudo from the pill mass. 2) I know the cure works with red hots because SWIG did it. But he did not have the label to list the ingredients. The pills SWIG pulls from are ususally white 60's with antihistamine or the time release type. He had some of those boxes still around. 3) Not to my knowledge. I'm sure someone could do some real study and find out, but the point of the full cure was do it until the solvent was clean. That way it did not matter what was in it. As to temperature, you will have an upper limit which is the point at which pseudo caramelizes. I do not recall that temp. SWIG burned some batches long ago trying to boil turps. Nasty mess. 4) Minimalist approach is three OH soaks and take what you get. In between? Minimum of an acetone boil and a mineral spirits boil, with OH extraction, no recrystalization. But why? If this is worth doing, it is worth doing right. There is no sense in half doing the extraction if you are going to do an RP/I2 or hypo cook. Clean in = clean out. Trash in= trash out. The Birch reduction is more gakk tolerant. That does not mean that clean feedstock does not yield purer product. As to whether it is known what adulterants cause post-reaction problems, the answer to that question is yes. (I'm not real sure who it is that knows, but...) Povidone is a yield killer, as is polyethylene glycol. Waxes damage the precursors, can reduce the yield, can infect the final product. Cellulose fillers do nasty things for smokers and weaken the product (dilute it). Anithistamines can carry through and leave odd colors and tastes for smokers. Some adulterants are there to foil extraction, some are there for other reasons and impact the extraction, some are instruments of the devil placed there to vex to unwary and are as bad a crotch full of day old chigger bites. SWIG has not dealt with them all. This cure seems to catch most all of them. 5)On Tuesdays. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	bee186 (Stranger) 07-28-02 16:07 No 338218		Thanks so much geez, youve cleared a lot of ...	Bookmark Reply
			Thanks so much geez, youve cleared a lot of things I asked those questions because they were key. I would have spent a lot of time trying to find the answer to number 3, for example when in all likelyhood if you don't know, it's not worth looking for. Thanks again. On the minimalist topic, you have to be more or less right. You are. The reason I asked it I think was that for the newbie, the full cure may be too advanced and unsafe for their(mine) underdeveloped skills and knowhow. So what do you think of a newbie cure? not a lazy cure, maybe a cure without boils. maybe just povidine removal, polyglycol removal, whatever else is cruisin for a post rxn bruisin. I probably don't fully understand what I'm saying here because if boils and various motions are essential, then they are essential. I'm thinking, newbies high off weak(not dangerous meth) meth, could progress to the full cure hi qual product, faster than newbies who maybe drop off and get disenchanted by it all. what do you think? Like a Help-the-Kids-scheme Anyway thanks again for making this REALLY cool post! EDIT: *shakes your front leg - ntmy geez*
	xboXer (Hive Bee) 07-28-02 19:40 No 338291		whatever	Bookmark Reply
			whatever The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Shut the door start the car!
	bee186 (Stranger) 07-28-02 20:55 No 338325		ouchy	Bookmark Reply
			ouch...
	xboXer (Hive Bee) 07-29-02 03:24 No 338462		sorry bee186	Bookmark Reply
			The whatever is not directed at bee186's post rather it is a hands thrown in the air exasperation for the removal of my reply which  was not off topic (see intro to "notes and comments" the part about providing a thread for discussion...???)  and the notes and comments #2 "-boiling hastens the removal of povidone" My original reply commented on placebo's stating that post "cure" post reaction, steam distillation was incorperated to remove the povidone and a further toluene addition to the distillate with seperation and gassing to remove polymers, gave me a valid reason for doubting the actual ability of the method described in "cure" as well as "go to whoah" to do little more than waste time and inventory. Further I fail to see the necessity to delete a reply. Comment on it, flame it, or school the bee up. Where is the proof that the povidone is removed, and at what point of YOUR (geezmister) revision does it take place, and why is it necessary if in fact placebo was able to produce a product that by admission contained povidone POST reaction? The methods variations are still open to the question of validity until it is shown where the questions of validity have been addressed, and answered. If you don't know, say so, but don't delete replies. If you DO know say so and inform. If it is going to confuse the people at this site well then what is anyone even doing with respect to the write-ups? Hence the "whatever" sorry bee186, for the oversight. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Shut the door start the car!
	ZingoBingo (Hive Bee) 07-29-02 06:17 No 338504		sorry bee186	Bookmark Reply
			xboXer: BTW, have you read the Pugilist?  PM if you want.
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-29-02 06:42 No 338517		the turps soak	Bookmark Reply
			The point of the turps soak is to remove povidone, and it works. The notes and comments reference current wisdom that soaking the pill mass in most non-polar solvents will remove povidone. Foxy2 states a strong case for the use of odorless mineral spirits.  Povidone is removed by the initial non-polar solvent soak. Polyethylene glycol is removed at the same time. I have not taken the time this morning to reread Placebo's series of posts on this extraction technique. I do recall there was the "cure" which came to be known as the "lesser cure" and then there was the "full turps cure" which addressed the povidone problem successfully.  I am not familiar with his work on steam distillation. I am aware that he was battling povidone after having done the "lesser cure," which is why the "full turps cure" was such a major innovation at the time. The terminology about the "the cure," "the lesser cure," and "the full turps cure" evolved after the posts themselves. I believe this may explain some of your questions concerning Placebo's posts. This post merely restates the "full turps cure" in a format devised for extraction technique threads. If you check, you will find that I make no claim to its invention, perfection, or modification. I do not even advocate its use, as IMHO waterless a/b extraction techniques yield superior product with less effort. I merely restate what I consider to be the current consensus about the technique in response to a request that I do so. You have obviously confused Geezmeister with a Moderator. I do not have the authority to edit, delete, lock, remove, or rate posts. The Moderators are far more moderate than Geez. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	zibarium (Naked) 07-29-02 10:41 No 338594		turps vagueness	Bookmark Reply
			turps is a pretty vague solvent. could cause confusion, especially between different countries. cas# helps. swiz never dreamed a benifit in using it, or any of it's variations.
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-29-02 11:10 No 338608		Turps is a mixture	Bookmark Reply
			"Turps" (aka Mineral Turpentine and Turpentine Substitute) is a mixture of solvents. The turpentine substitute sold by the big retailer is basically xylene with turpenes and a few other things tossed in. "Mineral turps" as described by Placebo in the original turps cure post is a substitute for gum spirits of turpentine, and is most usually a xylene based mixture with some other solvents, alcohol, acetone, and turpenes. Gum spirits of turpentine is a different solvent altogether. "Mineral Turps" as described by Placebo is not the same thing as "mineral spirits." Current thinking is that a long soak in any suitable aromatic non-polar solvent will rid the pill mass of povidone. Xylene and Tolulene will, as will odorless mineral spirits. The Bees posting this information are credible and have no motive to post false information. That said, be advised that the "turps cure" involves a soak in a turpentine substitute consisting of aromatic non-polar solvents and turpenes. The success of  Bees who have removed of povidone without the use of turpenes indicate the turpenes are not essential to this purpose. The fact that gum spirits of turpentine fail to remove povidone tends to inidcate that turpenes themselves are not the active agent in dissovling povidone. The notes and comments section discusses the use of solvents other than "turps" for this purpose. It is very difficult, however, to restate the "full turps cure" without discussing what the "turps" in the "cure" in fact is.  This issue has been beaten to death in earlier posts on the turps cure, and need not be restated further. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	former_chemist (Hive Bee) 07-29-02 16:59 No 338694		Mixed solvents	Bookmark Reply
			this is from another thread somewhere reposting for completeness: povidone: this is from the Merck, Properties:  White, hygroscopic powder. Sol in water, alcohol, chloroform, formic acid, acetic acid, N -methylpyrrolidone, methylcyclohexanone, dichloromethane, ethyl enediamine, glycerol, diethyleneglycol, PEG 400. Insol in xylene, toluene, diethylether, ethylacetate, acetone, cyclohexanone, chlorobenzene, dioxane, carbon tetrachloride, mineral oil. If povidone is present in adulterant quantities then xylene, toluene and acetone without turpenes won't do the trick.  If it is present as a binder then they are ok.  The quantities differ significantly between products from 0 to probably 30% (could be something else in there too but it is all GAKK). Insoluble does not mean that NONE dissolves just that it isn't "significant" (usually less than 1%) but if there is only 1% then it is ok. Anyway, "turps" should contain some turpenes to work.  Dichloromethane or tetrachloroethylene will also serve the purposes of "turps".  Most "turps" on the market seems to be a bastardized mix of solvents that contains just about any solvent you can think of.  Some of the "turps" listing turpenes contains basically zero but may still work because it contains DCM or TCE.  Different turpenes may also work differently.  Turpenes is about as general a category as alcohols or amines. More great extractomania from the meister.  Good work.
	Payin2Much (Hive Bee) 07-29-02 21:34 No 338801		Is a mother fuckers brothers mother...	Bookmark Reply
			WOW, what a writeup!  I like it.  SWIP likes it.  He told me that he might just have to give up GUPChucking, at least on Tuesdays!!!  Thanks GM. Oh, and go easy on the comedy central crew.  Without their extraordinary posts, I'd have to cum up with some other reason to coax those blowjobs out of the local wiccan priestess... TooMuch is Just Enough... What a Long, Strange Trip it's Been
	bee186 (Stranger) 07-30-02 14:02 No 339081		its OK	Bookmark Reply
			Thanks for clearing it up xBoXer, PM ya, well I already have
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 07-30-02 14:55 No 339104		thanks	Bookmark Reply
			Former_chemist to the rescue! Thank you for that insightful note about the distinction between povidone as an adulterant and povidone as a binder. Excellent point. I sense a debate about odorless mineral spirits in the breeze, and wonder whether Foxy2 has considered the binder vs. adulterant angle. Your comment reminds me of the advice that auto parts store "degreaser" worked as well as turps. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	Osmium (Stoni's sexual toy) 07-30-02 15:31 No 339117		> Polyethylene glycol is removed at the same ...	Bookmark Reply
			> Polyethylene glycol is removed at the same time. I recently worked with polyethylene glycols and they weren't soluble in highly non-polar solvents. I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.
	xboXer (Hive Bee) 07-30-02 16:54 No 339133		Now there is some food for thought!	Bookmark Reply
			Right on. It takes a high dive into the lagoon of more refined povidone info. and to the point...BAM! I will muck no more here. Really though, geez, former C, and Os, You really helped, my thanks.           oX P.S.- H.T.R.T.F. :) The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Shut the door start the car!
	wareami (Hive Addict) 07-30-02 19:05 No 339187		Nice Right-Up!	Bookmark Reply
			Geez: Great job! It's right on time! Alot of what's becoming the greatest obstacles are dealt with directly and concisely! Good Work! Ibee would have chimed in sooner, but he's been buzy lately! P2M: Glad to see we'll be having Gupless tuesdays! Kinda brings a tear to my I2!!! And as for the comedy central standUP fornicators...as long as it stands UP, Thare is plenty of excuseless head to be had! We wouldn't think of letting the Wiccan Princess down! Peaceof the ^reaction Have FUN-Bee SAFE Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt ô¿ôWareami
	former_chemist (Hive Bee) 07-30-02 21:57 No 339237		PEG not generally soluble in aliphatic non-polars	Bookmark Reply
			PEG is soluble in toluene and xylene (maybe some other aromatics also), not the other non-polars.  PEG is also somewhat soluble in polar organics (alcohols and ketones, some are better than others).  Really high weight PEG will not be soluble in anything ie. plastic (not really a problem).  Medium weights will be just soluble enough in stuff to be a pain.  Low weights will dissolve fine in toluene and xylene.  PEG is definitely not soluble in aliphatics organics ie. hexane, pentane and all kinds of other things.
	Rhodium (Chief Bee) 07-31-02 11:36 No 339455		PEG is not soluble in ether either.	Bookmark Reply
			PEG is not soluble in ether either.
	wareami (Hive Addict) 07-31-02 19:19 No 339574		Interesting!	Bookmark Reply
			Rhodium: That explains the successes in the past when using the triple solvent NP in the final A/B when working up the seriously Gaaked emulsions! In the past, instead of kerplunking, Ibee had implemented a useful way of getting to the goods after purposely allowing some of the more crippling inactives to go through the rxn! •85%-VM&P Naptha •10%-ether from StartingFluid •5%-tetrachloroethylene Makes up the Triple Non-Polar mixture! Worked everytime! The incorporation of h202 dropwise also helped to clear the emulsion, releasing the molecule to move up! Without using that mixture, PEG was found to be present in the final crystal! Peaceof the ^reaction Have FUN-Bee SAFE Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt ô¿ôWareami
	foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 08-03-02 08:55 No 340610		Ummm	Bookmark Reply
			Anyway, "turps" should contain some turpenes to work. Why?  Turpenes are aromatic hyrocarbons, that wash comes later. Jacked told me he uses NAPHTHA with equivalently good results on Fully Gakked 120's.  Cleaning the fully Gakked 120's are a high standard, IMHO. Here is the logic as i see it.  Hit the ground up pills with all the different kinds of solvent which don't dissolve pseudo.  The order i recommend is from highest boiling solvent to lowest boiling solvent which will make the final drying MUCH easier. First Highly non-polar, linear hydrocarbon.  Odorless mineral spirits(aka charcoal starter fluid), or Naphtha. Second Aromatic hydrocarbon.  Toluene or xylene. You could probably use Gum Turpentine, but that stinks like shit!! Third Ketone wash.  Either acetone or MEK. These easily evap and will allow a speedy progression to your alcohol pulls. For the alcohol. I would suggest dry IPA. Why? Because it is the least polar commonly available alcohol which will extract pseudo.  The logic is that you have washed out most everything soluable in non-polars and moderately polar solvents, but not stuff that dissolves in highly polar solvents.  So you want the alcohol to bee ""Just"" polar enough to dissolve the pseudo but hopefully not anything else they add which only dissolves in very polar solvents. Use as many distinctive classes of wash solvents as you can. That is the logic behind this method as i see it.    The result. It works, at least for now.
	geezmeister (Hive Addict) 08-03-02 11:49 No 340674		Gakked 120's	Bookmark Reply
			The fully gakked 120's in their current formulation are best suited for extraction by the waterless a/b method. The current formulations have polyethylene glycol but do not list povidone; SWIG has not had povidone problems with them of late. SWIG has done both techniques multiple times on the newer formulations and these particular formulations yield their treasure quite well the a/b method, very dry. Shaken, not stirred. The use of napthas, particularly heated napthas, in conjunction with the waterless a/b technique tends to extract pseudo very cleanly, although more volume of the solvent should be used due to the decreased solvency as compared to xylene or tolulene. An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.
	BenWiFFen (Line Monitor) 08-03-02 14:57 No 340755		Foxy2 I think you...	Bookmark Reply
			see it as I see it. The only small tidbit I can add is laquer thinner will also work. MEK being the highest and laquer thinner being the lowest in keytones. Help i'm a Rock.  Frank Z
	former_chemist (Hive Bee) 08-03-02 19:21 No 340846		Povidone removal	Bookmark Reply
			Foxy: "The Full Cure" was developed primarily for povidone (adulterant quanitity) removal.  In your sequence there isn't anything that will remove the povidone.  If the povidone is lesser in quantity, then toluene or xylene is probably sufficient.  "Turps" could be veiwed as a generic name for a solvent that will remove povidone in adulterant quantities.  Tetrachloroethylene, Dichloromethane and various solvents containing turpenes seem to be the best bet here.  Even turpenes listed on the label isn't sufficient to know if a solvent will remove the GAKK.  Turpenes is a very general class of chemicals.  In the chemistry text I have it lists about 40 different chemicals as turpenes. Otherwise your theory of the cure is quite correct.  Hit it with everything you have then extract the goodies.  I also agree with IPA.  It is also the most readily available and easiest of the common alcohols to dry.
	foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 08-03-02 21:30 No 340889		former chemist	Bookmark Reply
			povidone: this is from the Merck, Properties:  White, hygroscopic powder. Sol in water, alcohol, chloroform, formic acid, acetic acid, N -methylpyrrolidone, methylcyclohexanone, dichloromethane, ethyl enediamine, glycerol, diethyleneglycol, PEG 400. Insol in xylene, toluene, diethylether, ethylacetate, acetone, cyclohexanone, chlorobenzene, dioxane, carbon tetrachloride, mineral oil. Tell me why you think it is soluable in ""TURPENES""? I cannot deduce that from the above and I don't believe it is(at least by Merck standards).  That dosen't mean turpenes won't work, but peoples experiences using turpentine indicate that it does NOT work.(and stinks VERY bad when heated) Examples of terpenes include -pinene and -pinene, the primary components of turpentine that give rise to its characteristic odor. http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/1organic/hydro.html Which of the above "soluable" solvents have any resembleance to Turpenes?  I can't see any and would bee interested in your logic. All i can say is try the above, and crash the pseudo as in the link geeze posted.  Just because it doesn't meet the "technical" definition of soluable doesn't mean much.  Things are very different when you are using a LARGE excess of HOT solvent.  You think the soluability goes up in 100C mineral spirits, you know it goes up.  And we are talking washes with 2-4x excess volume of hot solvents.  Mineral spirits is less than $3 per gallon, xylene $8.  How much is DCM/gallon and how harmful is DCM when you have pill washers flushing it down the toilet.  These are very real and normal things you should take into account when posting in the stims forum. IMHO. All I can say is, it works and works well, thats what the kiddz told me. Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
	former_chemist (Hive Bee) 08-04-02 07:02 No 341100		Povidone solubility	Bookmark Reply
			Foxy: I mostly agree with you.  Xylene is the chemical that most closely resembles pinenes.  Emperical evidence seems to indicate that pinenes are not the best solvents for povidone.  Toluene and Xylene have also "failed" in this respect.  I agree that the solubilities in merck are not all or nothing.  I have repeatedly stated that if the amount of povidone is "small" toluene or xylene should work fine.  Pinenes are not the only chemical found in "Turps" that may be active.  I would speculate that pinenes would not be the active removal agent.  I would also speculate that one of the "Citrus" turpenes present might be more effective.  Since noone has done a definitive study of turpene solubilites the question is still open.  The original reference for this method is one of the "The Cure" series advocating "long chain turpenes".  Since there have been mixed results with various "Turps" I can only conclude that the amount of povidone varies as does the solubility of it in various solvents. DCM is a fairly innoculous chemical.  It is used for decafinating coffee beans.  Although the USA no longer allows this process for beans sold here.  It evaporates quickly and is broken down by microbes.  There are a number of studies on the internet relating to its biodegradability.  This compound does not seem to be any more harmful than toluene or xylene. Many of the OTC solvents contain DCM and some are sold as turpentine substitutes or even as turpentine.  This may be one of the factors resulting in success with "Turps" in removing large quantities of povidone. Chlorinated brake parts cleaners also contain DCM as do a variety of aerosol paint removers.  These are available at $1-2/16 oz. At this point we are really going from "The Cure" to "Egull".  The difference between these two being the solvents used.  I am personally don't like tetrachloroethylene because of the slow evaporation rate and toxicity. DCM is preferable IMHO. Also I have to agree with GM.  Povidone is less of a problem with the new formulations.  The methyl methacrylate copolymers are starting to show up.  These new beasties will definitely make things much more difficult.
	wareami (Hive Addict) 08-04-02 07:38 No 341118		Good Discussion...I like it!	Bookmark Reply
			Former_C: Thanks for the heads UP on the methacrylate copolymers....The Kidz will get right on it and address your thread later.... If Ibee's memory serves him correct...DCM was used by the old-timers someware in the p2p methods...way back in the good ole dayz! There is no doubt now that Tetrachloroethylene removes Povidone and most other polymers in one fell swoop! As for Bees Flushing it down the toilet....NEVER NEVER NEVER should that be done! Especially in light of the fact that the reuse of it when it is charged with polymers is a supreme extraction agent! When it comes to time and steps taken to achieve cleanfeed....The Egull is still the prefered method at UP-AWE-NITE Laboratories! Peaceof the ^reaction Have FUN-Bee SAFE Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt ô¿ôWareami
	dwarfer (Hive Addict) 08-05-02 14:41 No 341820		PP/SS vs povidone	Bookmark Reply
			If povidone is present in adulterant quantities then xylene, toluene and acetone without turpenes won't do the trick.  If it is present as a binder then they are ok.  ================ For some reason superheated acetone (100C) seems to be effective..?? ============ I agree with der Geez that the  "waterless" techniques have superceded "the cure." dwarfer
	foxy2 (Distinctive Doe) 08-07-02 19:02 No 342778		one thing about the cure	Bookmark Reply
			I know it works.(so far) It may bee tedious, but the concept is simple and difficult to fuck-up. I would recommend this method to newbee's just starting out. I also agree with former chemist that citrous solvents. Aka Limonene, is an avenue to explore.  If you search it can bee had at semi reasonable prices. Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

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