Reduction of HMX

[Hex]

Does anyone have any info on reduction of a single N-nitro group of HMX, to either the 3,5,7 trinitro secondary amine or N-amino hydrazine? Most work in the area seems to be aimed at total reduction. Does anyone know a selective reduction for N-nitroso which will not reduce N-nitro? (the mono nitroso analogue of HMX is easily prepared)

Cheers

[cutefix]

Hello Hex,why would you reduce the expensive and difficult to prepare HMX.I think this high explosives section is more interested in the preparation of explosives,and less on destroying it.I am just perplexed by your question.

[Hex]

Cutefix,

I realise that this forum is probably aimed more at the wherewithal of (home) synthesis of HE, and perhaps there is a more appropriate forum for this post, but many of the posters (including yourself!) are obviously very knowledgeable about the organic chemistry of the subject, and I was looking for some input. I'll try and keep it relevant from now on.
The reason I was asking this particular question is that a lot of my current research involves the environmental fate of explosives, and I am interested in preparing some of the possible reduction products of HMX.

Cheers,
Hex

[cutefix]

I am not very interested with environmentally friendly explosive disposal,because I believe excellent explosives would be more exciting to dispose by blowing it off!To tell you I once have 800 grams of HMX , placed in a bottle and I kept it for more than 2 years in my bedroom.It was a fine free flowing powder.A friend of mine took interest of it, and have a very hard time convincing me to detonate it.He made a simple PBX using silicone paste,then placed it in a plastic jar, primed it,put it in the deep hole down the center of the tree stump.It was then tamped with some moist clay.Then the meter and a half time fuse was lit,later that ole tree was blown to bits!and left a hole about half a meter indepth and about one meter wide!It was indeed a superior stump removal explosive,much better than ANFO or dynamite!We just have to pick up the shattered remains scattered over a wide area.I remember that HMX has little bit sharper sound than RDX or PETN.,but the shockwave was just as impressive!If I have more of that stuff again I will put it in safe deposit box.I prefer it more than a rare bottle of wine or champagne!

[Hex]

I'd rather blow it up as well. But I'm in the rather privileged position of working in a dedicated explosives lab - so I'm not short on that sort of entertainment.

[cutefix]

You are a very lucky guy Hex!You have all the fun and at the same time well paid for blowing things for scientific research!

[PHILOU Zrealone]

I thought you was looking for an alternative way to make a big quantity of hydrazine; since R-salt is trinitroso symtriazine made by mixing HCl NaNO2 and hexamine and that then you already have the N-N link.
(CH2N-NO)3 -[H]-> (CH2N-NH2)3 what could be an interesting fuel for rocketry close to dimethylhydrazine-methylhydrazine mix.
Unfortunately for you I haven't read anything about this reduction.The only thing I can tell is that the final product can be made by mixing hydrazine with formaldehyde generating the 6 membered ring (-CH2-N(NH2)-CH2-N(NH2)-CH2-N(NH2)-) wich can be oxydised to R salt and to RDX (but it is not really helpfull to waste the valuable hydrazine to make R salt or RDX.
I dream about a trinitrate of that compound or a triperchlorate of it
(CH2N(NH2)-)3.3HNO3
(CH2N(NH2)-)3.3HClO4
They should have a higher VOD than related HN/HP and a nearly perfect OB!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[Hex]

I don't think I've made myself very clear here. What I would like to make is 1-amino-3,5,7-trinitro-1,3,5,7-tetrazacyclooctane, eg HMX with one NNO2 reduced to NNH2. I guess that most reductions will either reduce all the nitro groups (causing total decomposition of the ring) or reduce NNO2 to NH rather than NNH2.

[cutefix]

somehow you sparked my curiosity why you want to partially reduce HMX.Do you want to convert to more usefull or specifically more important explosive?Just think of TNT it can be converted to pentanitroaniline so as to form hexanitrobenzene or even triaminotrinitrobenzene or TNT to hexanitrostilbene.I was wondering whether you have found a better way of producing the bicyclo-HMX which is just as intersting as keto-RDX....

[Mr Cool]

Just a thought: could you use sodium sulphide, like in the reduction of picric acid to picramic acid? You'd have to do it in a solvent that would dissolve the HMX and the sulphide (would acetone work?).
Well, that's all I can suggest I'm afraid!

[PHILOU Zrealone]

My guess is that you need to start from HMX and play with the reducer amount (dillution) and then separate compounds by chromato or decantation in an acidic media.

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"