Potassium Chlorate

[VX]

Hello again,

(I have a new friend called 'I', this message is written on his behalf)

I have recently taken a particular interest in flash powder again (hopefully I wont remove the skin from my hand this time!!)

However I have no Potassium Chlorate, and I really want to experiment with some of these mixtures. I know that KClO3 can be made from NaClO3, which I have easy access to (about 50ish% with the rest being fire depressant.(I also know that it can be made from various hypochlrite solutions.)

However I have particular interest in producing KclO3 from the weedkiller that I have such cheap and easy access to, my problem is that everyone else refers to making one from the other as 'common knowledge' as if it is easy and well documented, which it may be.
But despite many searches I cannot find any methods for production.

(several promising messages such as 'Potassium Chlorate (crapbook method)', 'pool shock to pottasium chlorate'
etc. are no longer valid links, and I still can't find any ways around the internet filter in place at college. Because of this my resorces are extremely limited.

I would really appreciate some help on this subject i.e how can I make relatively pure KClO3, from the NaClO3 I have easy access to.

Thanks all..VX

p.s. I know that most members of the forum obviously have a good understanding of this method, and so may feel this is a stupid Kewel question, please dont get mad, I have tried every resource I can find, with no luck,. As always posting this message was a last resort to find the information needed.

------------------
There is no spoon!!

[This message has been edited by VX (edited 12-11-2001).]

[Jhonbus]

What you have to do is react the NaClO₃ with KCl in the aqueous phase. Measure out the appropriate amounts of NaClO₃ and KCl and dissolve them in the mimimum amount of boiling water. Then you allow the solution to cool to just above freezing and filter off the crystals. These are the KClO₃. Some people say to dry off all the water, but if you did this you would end up with lots of NaCl mixed in with your KClO₃.

there's a 1:1 mole ratio for this reaction, so for 100g of NaClO₃, you would use 57.7g of KCl.


EDIT: I forgot the link that everyone instantly thinks of when they hear the word "chlorate".... http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/indexEN.html - there is lots of info here, including the aforementioned metathesis reaction.

Also, did you know you can separate the NaClO₃ from the fire retardant using a common seive? This is because the retardant is in the form of large (2mm) granules, and the chlorate is a fine powder.

EDIT: Oh yes, Anthony is right about the fire depressent being the fine powder, I got it the wrong way round... d'oh!

------------------
You must create.

PGP Key ID on MIT server: 0x0ADBA985


[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited 12-13-2001).]

[J]

I'll just mention that you can get KCl as a salt substitute called 'Lo Salt', which is 66% pure. The rest is common salt, but this doesn't matter at all since it's one of the products of the reaction. Just make sure you account for it when working out the ratios.

You can also buy pure KCl as a water softener in hard water areas. This is much cheaper than Lo Salt (£10 for 25Kg at my local hardware store). Make sure it's KCl, because NaCl is sometimes sold for this purpose too.

Homebase sell bags of salt for water softners. As far as I know, it's NaCl because it's simply labelled as salt. If anyone knows differently, please post.

J

------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

[VX]

Thats Brilliant thanks loads. I knew that you could get the KCl as lo salt, but didn't know the reaction to make the KClO3, or for that matter that the fire depresants and the Chlorate were different particle sizes. My friend may try this soon. Thanks again... VX

------------------
There is no spoon!!

[This message has been edited by VX (edited 12-12-2001).]

[Anthony]

Not much left to say but: The NaClO3 is the large crystals and the fire retardant is a fine powder (possibly NaCl).

[VX]

Ah right....
. That makes a lot more sense as far as reaction kinetics go.i.e. Try to give the Chlorate a really small surface area, and the retardent a really large one, as to reduce the chance of the chlorate reacting and increase the chance of the retardent stopping any reaction.

Does anyone know what the fire retardent is for sure and if it is not removed from the reactants will it interfere. If it is NaCl, their will be a fair amount of NaCl in the reaction vessel at the start of the reaction...(from the 'Lo Salt' 33% and 40ish% from the weedkiller. If not seperated will it crystalise out of the solution instead of the KClO3, as their will be more of it.

EDIT- Actualy I suppose the KCl in the 'Lo Salt' could be purified by recrystalisation from water.

Thanks again for any help,

VX

------------------
There is no spoon!!


[This message has been edited by VX (edited 12-13-2001).]

[J]

The NaCl won't crystalize out instead of the KClO3.

I've heard that the retardant is either NaCl or Borax.

J

------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)

[Anthony]

I think the reason that NaClO3 are large crystals is simply because that's the way it's produced and there's no reason to reduce them to a fine powder.

The fire retardant would interfer with compositions in that it would retard their combustionhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif The comps will still burn, just not as fast.

[vulture]

i tried the electrolysis method that is described on wouter visser's page, but the yield sucks, unless you keep electrolysing for days on end!
Which type of weed killer is it?


[This message has been edited by vulture (edited 12-12-2001).]

[Anthony]

"Sodium Chlorate Weedkiller"

[nbk2000]

Make a small loop (<2mm dia.) out of nichrome wire. Heat to red hot with a propane torch. Dip in the seperated retardent. Fuse into a blob with the torch and note the color change of the flame, and the color of the cooled blob.

If the flame is yellow, you've got a sodium compound. Violet is potassium, and I believe green is boron (borax).

------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[Bitter]

Where did my god-damned post go to ? I posted yesterday, saying that the chlorate was the large particles rather than the small ones, because the NaCl would be a more effective fire depressant if it had a smaller particle size. Never mind, thanks for the correction, Anthony.

------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."

[The Great Milenko]

Recently I was making some chlorate from some calcium hypochlorite pool chlorine, and I could'nt find any pure potassium chloride, so I opted for a salt compound that I found in a supermarket called "No salt", and it states that it has about 50% potassium chloride and 50% ammonium chloride. I haven't had any dificulties with using this no salt stuff, only that the chlorate is much more hydroscopic than what most people say it should be, could it be possible that i've made both potassium chlorate and ammonium chlorate? Because thats my only explanation for how hydroscopic it is, also would there be a way of seperating the potassium chloride from the ammmonium chloride, so I could make either of the chlorates seperately? And which is the better chlorate? I mostly use it to make chlorate plastique, so which would give me better performance?

[vulture]

DUDE! If you actually made ammoniumchlorater you're in BIG trouble!
This stuff is explosive and is very sensitive, even in solution.
Destroy it immediatly by adding KOH or NaOH.

[The Great Milenko]

Shit, like how sensitive are we talking here? and could it be used in place of AN, or atleast anywere as near as powerfull?

[rikkitikkitavi]

as sensitive as in auto-decomposition=> explosion.

Very very unstable above 40 C, explodes at 100 C (CRC handbook)

concentrated solutions can decompose explosivly because the heat generated vapourized the water.

can NOT be stored. Will sooner or later (probably sooner)
start to decompose followed by an explodsion.

NEVER EVER mix chlorates with ammonia or ammoniumsalts.

/rickard

[The Great Milenko]

Hmmm, damn, well back to the olde drawing board I guess.
Well even though ammonium chlorate is so f'n dangerous, does anyone know if it's even what i'm making along with the potassium chlorate?
And could the hydroscopic nature of this mix i've made be contributed to the fact that it was mixed with sugar?
Now that I think about it, I dried one of the batches in the oven, which would have been over 100c I think, so would'nt it have decomposed? I left it in there for a good 40-50 mins too.
I seem to remember another thread on chlorate in which someone told of how they used chlorate as an explosive filler in a pipebomb along with a fair amount of ANNM plastique, would'nt that fall under "NEVER EVER mix chlorates with ammonia or ammoniumsalts"?

<small>[ April 03, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>

[vulture]

You probably escaped because the concentration of the ammoniumchlorate (which definitly formed) was too low.

The chlorate used in the filler was mixed with vaseline. This renders the reactivity to zero.

[nbk2000]

Just because a person lucks out one time and doesn't get blown up, doesn't mean their luck will hold out forever.

Though a lot of things the books say turn out to be incorrect or overexaggerations. Like AP being SOOOOO dangerous. We work with it in large quantities everyday and we're still here (most of us anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).

I wouldn't see AC sensitivity as a bad thing, rather the opposite. It's good to have a very sensitive chlorate in the mix when you're making a chlorate based explosive. As detailed in the Chlorate Plastique threads, it's not very sensitive or reliable otherwise. Use ammonium nitrate, instead of chloride, to sensitize the chlorate.

[The Great Milenko]

Well I spose if I had access to AN I would'nt be dicking around with chlorate plastique :rolleyes:
But what if I could just seperate the two chlorides before I use them in the recipe, so I could selectivly make either of the chlorates, not that I'd make the AC, I'd probably stick to PC, perhaps I'll go look around some more for something without ammonium chloride in it, is there anyone in Aus that could recommend a brand name that I should use?

[firebreether]

I'd doubt that any ammonium chlorate did form for you Milenko, because of the way you are doing the reaction. You are precipitating out the least soluble compound out of NH4+,Na+,K+ and Cl-,ClO3-, and since KClO3 is the least soluble it will precipitate. Judging by the fact that most ammonium compounds are really soluble, id highly doubt that some if any NH4ClO3 precipitated. Also because everything else in there is very soluble then your KClO3 will be pretty pure. However, Judging by the way people say its really sensitive id find a better way to make it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , find a KCl source that has only that or that and NaCl, just in case :D

[The Great Milenko]

Yeah, I can get another type of salt substitute called lo-salt, it's 50% KCl and 50% NaCl, should I use that instead? Oh yeah and BTW, i'm using the procedure from Wouter Visser's "preparing chlorates and perchlorates" page.

<small>[ April 07, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]</small>