PETN

[stanfield]

Today I made PETN :
50 g of pentaerythritol
200 mL of Nitric acid (d=1,51g.cm-3) (sorry, the first time I wrote 400 mL...)

I obtained a fucking amazing yield !!! I never saw this before ! PETN is definitively my favorite explosive, no discussion is possible about this !

Some questions are remaining :
I followed the Megalomania's synthesis and he said that when adding your pentaerythritol, the temperature must be kept between 0-5°C. When I was adding my PE, I wasn't able to kept the temperature ! She rises to 25°C and stabilized here during all the nitration... How the hell could she be kept under 5°C ? with liquid nitrogen ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> What's the influence of temperature on final product ? stability ?

However, the nitration is EASY, the temperature doesn't rise like rdx with hexamine or paraformaldehyde, that's a real pleasure ! :cool: no joking !

My last question : why Megalomania said that the nitric acid must be free of nitrogen oxyde ? NOx may lower the yield, am I right ?

see ya !

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[Madog555]

50g of PE? mega says to use 100

sounds good, can u please weigh the yield?

PETN is the balls, i blew a 3 inch hole thorough 1/4in plywood with 1 .223 shell full of it. it also blew a bunch of dirt out from underneath the plywood.

so, what do you plan to do with all this PETN, make some generic semtex? use it for dets? set it off as is? alot of possibilities!

[VasiaPupkin]

Sorry for my English...
You can obtain much better yeild if you use 100g PE and 500-550 g acid. Yeild 90% minimum = more than 200g. Thats usual correlation for industry and lab practice.
Really temperature must to be below 20-25C otherwise other dangerous esters may occur and oxydation process. If temperature quickly rises above 30C even autoignition may occur.
NOx-admixture leads to this decomposition process
with abrupt temperature rising. NO2 conc. must be below 2-3%.
Addition must be very slow when stirring.
For PETN pyrifying needs acetone (with NaHCO3 addition)recrystallisation to stabillize. Because 0.3-0.4% acid you are cannot remove with simple washing even with NaHCO3. Non pyried product decomposes slowly even at room temperature.

<small>[ March 13, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: VasiaPupkin ]</small>

[stanfield]

Yes, I only had 400 mL of nitric so I divised the proportions by two the first time to try the synthesis but the next time I will do it, this will be 100 g !

I just weighted out the PETN : 120 g !!! impresive !

VasiaPupkin, when you say I can obtain a better yield with 500-550 g of nitric acid, where do you get this information ? I ask this because I don't want to waste my beautiful nitrc acid...

I can't do semtex because I don't have the ingredients which are :
Styren-butadiene rubber
n-octyl-phtalate, butyl-citrate
Antioxidant and dye
(N-phenyl-2-naphtylamin, Sudan IV)
Where are these names ? I'll never get these chemical. Too difficult ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

But I'm interested in plasticising it with more common chemicals but I want a GOOD binder which could be used at 0°C ever less... I've heard a method who uses polystyrene, do you think it's good ?

Madog555, how can I uses PETN in detonators ? tell me more plz...

[Yi]

PETN is used in compound detonators. They consist of a main charge of PETN, that is initiated by a small amount of primary.

Just press the PETN to the bottom of the det, and then add a small amount of primary and press that. Then ignite as normal.

[stanfield]

Theses blasting caps must work damn good, no ?!
|***| <== DDNP
|***|
|###|
|###|
|###|
|###| <== PETN
|###|
|###|
|###|
|###|

Right ? :cool:

Aren't they any synonyms for Styren-butadiene rubber ? maybe it's a common chemical with complex name :)

see ya !

[Yi]

Yep thats the stuff. I think only about 1g of PETN should be suffice for most things.

[Microtek]

I aquired a kilogram of pentaerythritol a few weeks ago. For making PETN I used a process described in a patent that I found ( either on Wantsomfet's page or on the Forum ftp - the pdf was called petnpatents, and contained several processes ).
The procedure consists of dissolving the PE in H2SO4 and then dripping the solution into fuming nitric acid, and then raising the temp to 40-60 C for a period of up to 30 min. I found that the temp almost doesn't rise during addition of the PE solution to the nitric, even when I opened the valve on my addition funnel all the way.
It is claimed in the patent that this is due to much of the heat being liberated while dissolving PE in H2SO4.
Anyway the yield was excellent, about 90% and the product was purified by washing and neutralizing with bicarb soln, then dissolving in warm acetone and adding solid bicarb to the solution while stirring until it was neutral, and finally crashing the PETN with water.

[DBSP]

Microtek were did you get your PE, I'm interested since your not to far away, and I'm interested in getting some PE aswell.

SEMTEX 1A
Pentrite: 76%
Hexogene: 4,6%
Styren-butadiene rubber: 9,4%
n-octyl-phtalate, butyl-citrate: 9%
Antioxidant and dye:
(N-phenyl-2-naphtylamin, Sudan IV) 1%

SEMTEX H
Pentrite: 40,9%
Hexogene: 41,2%
Styren-butadiene rubber: 9%
n-octyl-phtalate, butyl-citrate: 7,9%
Antioxidant and dye:
(N-phenyl-2-naphtylamine, Sudan I) 1%

Those two are taken from detonators homepage. I've never heard of any semtex compositions other than PETN-RDX-vegatable oil before I found those two a couple of minutes ago. Am I out sailing now? :confused:
Stanfield and Madog was your HNO3 home made or bought?

[Madog555]

i have no HNO3 bu i would like to make some. i used the KNO3 H2SO4 method, i havent made that mutch, only enough for some dets.

for a nice PETN det i press some in a .223 caseing, then i take a .22 full of AP (with the fuse comming out of the back) and insert it into the neck of the cartridge, it fits perfectly.

DBSP, i think those are the newer semtexes and the 45 PETN, 45 RDX, and 10 vegable oil is the old school semtex

i got my PE from pyrotek

[Microtek]

I have connections with a small company that develops medical plastics were I occationally advise on assorted hard-science issues, so I can order chemicals without too much fuss.

About ways to plasticize explosives, I have developed a method based on latex:
5 mL of the heaviest oil you can find ( I use chainsaw lubricant )
and 2 grams of beeswax is dissolved in 5 mL unleaded gasoline with heating.
When this has attained a homogenous appearance, it is allowed to cool to between 40 and 50 C.
A small amount ( about 0.5-1.0 mL ) liquid latex is added with vigorous stirring.
The required amount of plasticizer is added to the crystalline HE
and kneaded thoroughly until the gasoline has evaporated.

About 10-15% of "dry" ( that is corrected for gasoline ) plasticizer is needed for a good plastique.

I have been having problems detonating this mix because I require my detonators to be very small ( less than 1 cc ), but see the "low explosives" section for a possible solution that I thought of.

[mongo blongo]

I tried to get some PE from Pyrotek but they said they wouldn't export it to the UK! :mad:
I would try to make it with Metaldehyde but I can't find formaldehyde! :(
Has anyone obtained PE in the UK? I really want to get some!

[DBSP]

Microtek what did you pay for that kilo of PE. I can get paraformaldehyde without problems so that way is possible. Does anyone know of a good file that covers the manufacture of PE.
Do you think anyone(at a chem supplier) would have objections about a small foto company buying HNO3 65% and 97% H2SO4?

[Microtek]

DBSP: You live in Sweden right? If you live down south you might consider going to Denmark. You can buy 96% H2SO4 and 62% HNO3 over the counter in shops called Matas. About 30 kroner for half a liter.
They also sell 85 % glycerine if you should be interested.
About the PE: Everything considered I got it for 300 kroner ( thats about 40 dollars ).

[wantsomfet]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">...you might consider going to Denmark. You can buy 96% H2SO4 and 62% HNO3 over the counter in shops called Matas </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">What kind of shops are that? Are the acids sold as a special brand or do i ask them for HNO3/H2SO4 directly?
Seems i have to make a weekend trip to denmark the next time...

Oh and Styren-butadiene rubber = car tires.

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Microtek you from Denmark? There is no problem aquiring 86% glycerin here(sweden) from your local paint store.

[VasiaPupkin]

If you used ~300g per 50g you are make all right (mass proportion 6/1). 95% yeild is a good.
In all PETN methods they always use HNO3 (>93% conc.)/PE= 5/1 mass proportions (Info from books).
If you use more acid the yeild from PE approximately constant. And why to waste "beautiful" acid?!
But when acid amount is lower than optimal or you are use acid with NOx admixture, yeild is relatively low.
And process stands dangerous and uncontrolled.

I prefer PETN than RDX because I can obtain significantly more explosive from per acid mass.
(For preparing 1 mass part of RDX needs apr. 8-9parts NA. For petn only 2.5)
But obtaining PE is more difficult than hexamine...

Dont need to copy reciepts. Try to use easy available materials and result may be comparable.
I used polystyrene/light oil mixture: Add some petrol to PS small pieses or "solid PS-foam" -?! Wait a few days and stir for gomgonous gelly-like very sticky mixture,
then add some ammounts of oil and PETN when stirring. And you only should to dry it outdoor to very little petrol smell. Unfortunately I could not to measure accurate proportions)
Final HE was "dirty-white" some elastic sticky composition from ~80/20 PETN/binder.
Also you can obtain very good result from liquid rubber mastique for car service. Also dilute this mastique with oil, add PETN and dry...
But this composition has black-brown colour with soil properties.
This methods are best I know... At +15-20C worked very well. May be you need only increase oil concentration in PE for lower temperatures.
I "developed" binder from transparent silicone "glue" (with CH3COOH smell)
and liquid silicone grease. This mixture gives sticky very interesting elastic material which
dont change properties in wide temperature range.
Unfortunately I cannot obtain NA now to try it with HE base :(

By the way, dry PETN is a very sensitive to electric spark and autoelectrisation.
In industry they even treat PETN with antielectrisation surfactants.
I dont know accidents with it at home practice but dont forget...

[stanfield]

"beautiful acid" because I have a small distillation apartus for now and it takes me long time to make nitric acid but for my birthday, I will bought a distillation appartus with 5L boiling flaks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> which could do more than 1 L of nitric acid at time !
Now I have 1L boiling flask and I got 250 mL of nitric acid at time which is very poor ! (and the distillation is very long... It has to be tested under vacuum to reduce time, maybe...)

see ya !

[Jumala]

In an other thread was said that water -> 10% increases the det. velocity of PETN.
What happens when I add some food gelatinizer (for making jelly) to the water. It could give a castable stuff that solidifies after some hours.

To Stanfield:

to have some nitric acid is always useful but for making PETN it could be better to use the method with H2SO4 and nitrate. The yield is lower but it saves a lot of time, work and valueable acid.

<small>[ March 14, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Jumala ]</small>

[Microtek]

Wantsomfet: The great thing about the Matas stores is that they sell things like cosmetics and housekeeping chemicals. The employees are ( often )young girls who know a lot about make-up, but absolutely nothing about what HNO3/H2SO4 can be used for.
The bottles are usually sitting on the shelves in the store, so you don't need to ask for them - you just pick one up and take it to the counter ( with the youngest airhead ) to pay.

[DBSP]

Microtek THANK you very much. You have just saved me alot of time and money. I was actually planning on going to Denmark in about two weaks to get some nice beer, the swedish one is so nasty that I don't drink it. Are there any Matas in Kopenhagen?
I've been planning on buying a still so if I could get 62% HNO3 and 96% H2SO4 I could easily get conc. HNO3 and that would be lovely. I've recently found a possible way of getting acids, my father had a small foto company about 12 years ago. I just found out that it hasn't been deregistrated yet so I might be able to buy things through that company but this way is definately better.

Just one last thing. How old do you have'to be to buy HNO3 and H2SO4??

Thanks again Microtek. :)

[stanfield]

I think if you plasticize it, you'll get better performance than adding water since the oxygen between molecule will be removed too...

[rikkitikkitavi]

<a href="http://www.matas.dk" target="_blank">www.matas.dk</a>

you have to be 16 to buy beer, but 20 bring it to sweden ... but who cares. I guess you have to be 18 to buy the acids since they are potentially a bit more dangerous than beer. But it depends on the person , right :)

I d actually prefer to get caught with the beer than the acids in the customs, but I havent seen any people working there for a long time. They only look for drugs anyway nowadays , since a lot of swedish goes to Christiania (a special area of Copenhagen) to buy pot (it is "legal" there) and bring it home. Cosy place, Christiania by the way. Especially the houses around "Pusher street" . Whoa, back on topic.

If you make 100 % HNO3 acid from sulfuric acid and 68% HNO3 by vaccum distilling , it could be good to know that you only need about 85 % sulfuric , since it is such a good waterabsorbent. And afterwards it would be simple to reconcentrate the sulfuric back up to about 85-90 % under vaccum. . Ergo, little waste.

Fuck, still of topic, Time to quit.

/rickard

[Microtek]

They don't ask about your age unless you are blatantly underaged. When I was about ten or twelve years old I wanted to buy some 96%sulfuric acid from a Matas store. They didn't refuse me straight away, but asked what I needed it for. When I told them I simply wanted to have it for whatever I might need it for, they told me to bring one of my parents with me.

[DBSP]

I'm 17 so buying it shouldn't be a problem. About the customs they dont't check people that hasn't got to "much" beer with them or look suspicius. I thought of something different sooner today. How do they check the passengers on the trains that go over the Öresundsbridge.
Do they check them at all? Maby thats the way to bring it over to sweden.

[stanfield]

Do you think this file is reliable for plasticising PETN ?
Has someone here who tested this method ? is it a good binder ?

<a href="http://stanfield.150m.com/Concealing%20PETN.pdf" target="_blank">[ Click Here For Downloading ]</a>

thanx

[HNIW]

Stanfield why do you think that PETN is easier to make than RDX? In my opinion RDX production is cheaper and the temp. of nitration isn't so important. As we know from K method. I only put the flask inside the crushed ice and try to keep the temp. under 30 degrees constantly stirring with mechanic stirrer. Pentaerythritol is more expensive then urotropine ( urotropine in my country costs about 1$ per kg and pentaerythritol about 20$ per kg ).
C4 can be easilly made from RDX. The plastycizer ( sebacyniandietyloheksylu - sorry I don't know how it is in english ) is used in PCV production and can be bought without any special permissions.

[a_bab]

Stanfield, where did you get the PE from ? I am very interested in getting some and I can reach you in 4 hours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[stanfield]

HNIW,in France, hexamine is forbidden so it have to be made which takes me very long time and it stinks ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Secondly, I have to distill my mixture of acid and nitrate to obtain my nitric acid so, If I want to make RDX, this will take me 2-3 weeks ! (yes, there is school behind ! :mad: ) To make PETN, I bought PE, put it in nitric acid and voila, PETN is made... Wednesday, it takes me 1 hour...

I bought my PE from a supplier...
Hexamethylnetetramine : 13.57 €
Pentaerythritol : 18.45 €
The price is enought close and yield is better so PETN is definitively my favourite exposive...
(From the same <a href="http://www.acros.be" target="_blank">supplier</a> )

But, if you can get hexamine legally at 1 $ by Kg, RDX is certainely YOUR favorite explosive...

More of that : RDX is harder to detonate than PETN so, RDX needs more primary than it's cousin so it's a bit expensive

a_bab, why do you say that you can reach my in 4 hours ? you're french ? you've got an airport ? are you ben laden ? :D :D If yes, ok, reach me and bring me 5 or 6 kalashnikov with 2 or 3 box of 7.62 mm munitions !

bye !

[Mr Cool]

Stanfield:
Please e-mail me after you read this.
It's not related to the topic, but since you seem to be reading and posting in this one it seemed like a good way to get your attention.

Sorry for cluttering up the thread...

[a_bab]

I'm not a french but I am in France now.
Hmmm, it seems that the PE is cheaper then a TGV ticket...

And no, I am not Ben Laden, and I whould have 2x AK47, I whould gave you one as a present plus a bunch of amo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[stanfield]

ok, I think the best and easy way to plasticize it is to mix it with vaseline and wax...

a_bab : ak 74 or higher model like ak105 or 108 are better... more stable when you're firing...

[stanfield]

a_bab, where are you precisely in France ? My supplier is near Grenoble... if you lives near there, you won't have to pay the port taxes (is it a correct english ?)

[ALENGOSVIG1]

stanfield: I though Acros only sold to companys, not individuals. Did you make up a company name? Did you get it shipped to your home address?

[HNIW]

Talking about the prices. In my coutry you can just buy hundreds kilograms of ammonium nitrate ( 2.5$ per 10kg ) without any permission. To set it off you need a few grams of HMTD and that's all . The reason for which I don't do it is that I want to examine different explosives not to just blow the neighbour's green house :) .

[stanfield]

no, I have a supplier who re-sell products from ACROS ...

see ya !

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Oh i see. Could you please email me?

[nbk2000]

Using polystyrene to bind the PETN wouldn't have much effect on its effectiveness. You could even use that to cast into into harmless objects like kitche' tourist figurines to bring it across borders, then add cheap nailpolish (bring a girl) to soften it up into a putty again.

I'm also of the opinion that explosive sniffing dogs don't actually smell the explosive (PETN or RDX), but rather the volatile organic binders and plastisizers that most of them are compounded with. If you can avoid that by compressing/casting, then you'll be a long way to avoiding detection.

And it woulnd't hurt to use a caseless detonator either.

[stanfield]

maybe plasticizing it with polystyrene may be appropriate to place the explosive in hand genade, no ? (since after plasticizing, it is shock insensitive...)

ALENGOSVIG1, email you about what ? my supplier adress ?

bye !

[VasiaPupkin]

Effectiveness I mean not only power its also senstitivity, comfort when using etc. For example if you have pure PETN but couldnot to press it enough at home without good press.
For example max. density 1.1 g/cc. Its only 18mm brisance. But when you have binder you can obtain 1.6g/cc - is 26mm already (espesially if you have water-suspension method).
When you compare it for destroying steel construction it would be large rate.

Why maybe?! - Must be. I only use plastic HE for h.g. etc filling. Because it has good mechanic properties, insensitivity and it neednot to press. Some PHE is easy to cast.
But maybe one problem. Usually plastic HE has good brisance but relatively low power (Trauzl block test).
It leads to large deformation of fragm. elements and lowering fragmentation speed. Therefore I recommend using PHE with Al or AN addition for this application.

[a_bab]

Stanfield, I live in Paris and it seems that Grenoble is a little too far from me. So adieu PETN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[stanfield]

"Therefore I recommend using PHE with Al or AN addition for this application"

which ratio ?

thanx...

sorry or you a_bab...

[mongo blongo]

Look at this:

<a href="http://www.chemicalland21.com/arokorhi/industrialchem/organic/HEXAMETHYLENETETRAMINE.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chemicalland21.com/arokorhi/industrialchem/organic/HEXAMETHYLENETETRAMINE.htm</a>

Under the GENERAL DESCRIPTION bit it says
"Formaldehyde and acetaldehyde react with HEXAMINE in the presence of calcium hydroxide to give pentaerythritol, the tetranitrate of which is the explosive PETN"
Does anyone know what method this is? I have never seen a method using Hexamine before. :confused:

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Stanfield: Yes, that was one of the questions i was going to ask you and i have a few more questions im hoping you can answer. My email address is alengosvig@yahoo.com

[bonnsgeo]

hello all !
i'm happy to see this forum again.

i want to say that i read in a french book (a good book ! about explosives ! written by Jean Quinchon .... foundable on amazon.fr) that nitration of PE is very dangerous if the concentration of HNO3 is between 60 % and 80 % because the PETN formed is destroyed by the nitric acid (hydrolize of PETN wich is an ester) which is very oxydant at these concentrations.

the "french industrial method" is to use 98 % nitric acid then when the concnetration is near from 82 % then add a lot of water quickly to put the concnetration under 60. then they can handle the solution with a minimum of risks.

bye all
(bad english ! I know :) )

[a_bab]

Hmmm... Interesting. But I think that if you keep the reaction cold, you won't have any problems at all. And since this means the total time of reaction to be maybe 2 hours and in the times of war they need the PETN quickly, they used the "dumping method".

Stanfield, PLEASE e-mail me (same reason as Alen i guess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

[bonnsgeo]

i dont think the temperature will change anything. the hydrolize works at all temperature (slower near 0 degre celsius but still important). The concentration of water / nitric acid is the principal parameter.
but i am not an expert :) and it's just a litlle precision for all the people use nitric acid to make PETN !

does somebody have the exact recipe for method with sulfuric and NH4NO3 (or other NO3 ..) ?? (because megalomania's site is down)
thx

bye
bonn's
:D

[wantsomfet]

I wrote down my first PETN synthesis some time ago, if you did a search you would have found it...
--
Nitration

According to Patent No.1,660,551 a ratio of pentaerythrite to sulfuric acid to nitric acid of 1 : 6,5 : 6 would be ideal.

- 1 part pentaerythritol: 5g
- 6 1/2 parts H2SO4 90% - 95%: 33g
- 6 parts nitric acid 90% - 100%: 30g

1.) In an erlenmeyer flask 5g pentaerythrite (PE) was dissolved in 18ml (33g) H2SO4 96%. A light red solution was obtained after heating the acid/PE to ca. 50 °C in a water bath. (At room temperature not all PE dissolved.)
2.) In another erlenmeyer flask a mix of 30 ml (55,2g) H2SO4 and 50,5g KNO3 was prepared, reacting to 31,5g HNO3 and 68g KHSO4 (H2SO4 + KNO3 --> HNO3 + KHSO4). A slight excess of H2SO4 was used, only 26,6 ml necessary. (1/2 mole)
3.) After waiting 60 minutes for the reaction to complete, the HNO3 / KHSO4 was still very thick & syrup like. The H2SO4/PE solution was added in little amounts over ca. 10 minutes with constant light shaking the mix. (appears to be a bit difficult because it's so thick) After another 10 minutes the shit was so thick that i could put the erlenmeyer flask upside down without one drop lost. Agitating with a glass rod solved this problem, it turned into a thick white paste.

I waited 60 minutes, stirring the mix from time to time.
Because the mix was not pourable i diluted it with the same amount distilled water and poured in a 600ml beaker. Then i added additional 300ml distilled water. Unsoluble white foam was observed on the surface of the milky solution and a white substance settled at the bottom of the beaker. After cooling to room temperature i filtered the solution through normal coffee filterpaper obtaining extremely fine white crystals (similar to acetoneperoxide).

The weight of the white substance after drying is 9,8g. (some was lost on the filterpaper and the glass dish used for drying, so i assume the yield was about 10,3g)

Upon dissolving in boiling acetone (200ml @ 55 °C) not all crystals dissolved, the solution stayed milky and a small blob of lightly yellow substance formed at the bottom of the beaker. I filtered through coffee filter again obtaining a clear solution. This was dumped into 300ml cold distilled water, immediately extremely fine white crystals precipitated which were filtered out, washed with a little water and dried.

[bonnsgeo]

sorry but i did a search but i did nt found anything.
thx for the recipe

bye bonns
@+

[VasiaPupkin]

I used 15 g of Al powder per 100g mixture (~80-82%PETN and ~18-20% rubber mastique).
Otherwise you can add 20-30% AN (I didnot make it)

If you keep reaction cold with 60-80% conc. acid you can obtain generally pentaerytrite dinitrate.
Nitration processes would be very very slow.
Oxidation proceses are not so intensive. But you can notice its presence by lower yeild and oxydation products.
Hydrolysis is only paralel process when oxydation.

[Microtek]

Those of you that make PETN by dissolving the PE in H2SO4 and then pouring this into the nitric ( or H2SO4/KNO3 ) may have noticed that the PE has a tendency to form sticky lumps which means that it takes hours for it all to dissolve.
Otherwise this method is very advantageous with regards to temperature of nitration and safety.
In an attempt to solve this ( minor ) problem I added glacial acetic acid to the PE before pouring the sulfuric acid on. The advantage of doing this is that no lumps are formed and the greater interface between sulfuric and PE means that it dissolves much faster ( about 10 times ). The heat of dissolution makes most of the acetic acid evaporate, and what is left doesn't seem to interfere with the nitration.
The amount of acetic acid was seemingly not so critical; I used just enough to wet all the PE.

[stanfield]

with my 120 grams of PETN, what sort of damages could I do ?

thanx !

[DBSP]

You could do some serius damage with that. Since it's so brisant it's good at cutting steel. Maby you could try something that involves PETN and metal, something steel cutting. It's just a suggestion though. Just don't waste it on making holes in the ground or something like that, use it wisely and do something serius.

Keep us informed of what you'll decide to do with it.

[stanfield]

ok, I have a big piece of metal, I will try to pulverize (or cut)it :)

thanx again !

[Madog555]

i herd that 40 or 50g will blow up a car

[a_bab]

From a kewl maybe.

[nbk2000]

Define "blow up".

Do you mean rupture and ignite the fuel tank? That's possible.

Destroy the motor? Yes.

Kill the driver if placed under his seat? Definitely.

Or are you talking about blowing the car 50 feet in the air and scattering the pieces for a hundred yards in all directions? In that case...NO. You'd need a 40 pound anti-tank mine to do that.

[stanfield]

how many grams for a tree ?

[Microtek]

Try downloading one of those army manuals. They contain formulas for determining how much explosive to use depending on placement, containment, type of explosive, etc.

[Anthony]

Define "tree"...

A single gram could blow a thin sapling in half, but a 3ft diameter 200 year old oak is a slightly different matter.

[Jumala]

I wouldn´t waist all the PETN at ones.
It is an exellent stuff for making a lot off stable caps.
For example a two component cap, one part contains a little Leadazide or DDNP and the second part contains a gramm off PETN.

[stanfield]

I made some DDNP a few days ago but I have to test it with PETN to see if it works well ... I say that because I got many difficults making DDNP (view my previous post...). The megalomania's recipe doesn't work so I used the Urbanski method (I think it's urbanski...)

Effectively, with 120 g of PETN, I could make a lot of detonators... So, do I need to separate the two components ? or are they compatible ?

see ya.

[cutefix]

"Try downloading one of those army manuals. They contain formulas for determining how much explosive to use depending on placement, containment, type of explosive, etc"

Be careful also with substitutions; there calculation are based on TNT.For example,if you use PETN,and if loosely packed,then it will have void spaces that will slow down detonation velocity;as well as other explosives.Even if there is ample math for this to determine the required quantity of explosives to do a certain job,this calculation works satisfactorily with military explosives like C-3,C-4,HBX-3 demolition blocks etc.
There should be an allowance for other explosives, specially homemade ones.Much better to exceed,and EOD technicians even practices it usually in the field.
FYI,Even fast explosives PETN and RDX can detonate at 5000 meters per second ,if there is ample void spaces imside the explosive(low density);Los Alamos had confirmed that in their extensive explosive experiments.

<small>[ March 21, 2002, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

[stanfield]

I just re-made PETN :) it's always so EAAASY !
Another fucking amazing yield with only 50 g of PE.
The addition takes me 40 min, the temperature wasn't allowed to rise above 26°C !

see ya !

[Madog555]

wantsomefet said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Oh and Styren-butadiene rubber = car tires </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">is this true, and are bike tires made out of the same stuff as car tires

stanfield: dam, i wish i had a good distilation aparatus so i could make nice HNO3 and get nice yields, im stuck with the KNO3/H2SO4 method, shitty yield. but i can still make PETN :D

[stanfield]

Yes, I've just commanded my 5 L distillation apartus ! only 150 €, yipee ! so I will sell my old 1 L apartus. If someone is interested, contact me...

Two questions :
- How many grams of PETN for an homemade fragmentation grenade ?

- Each time I do the synthesis, I only use 50 g of PE (Megalomania uses 100 g) and it takes me 40 min to add all my 50 g which is nervously hard ! So, is there a way to add the PE automaticaly with a machine or something like that ? I ask this because the addition of 100 of PE is humanly very hard, it's too long, the gaz mask is uncomfortable,...

thanx !

[Madog555]

how mutch are you planning to sell it for

nbk said the typical greanade is 50g of HE

[nbk2000]

A worm screw could do the addition for you. It's an auger type screw inside of a tube, with a motor to turn it. The faster the motor turns, the faster the addition. You could make one yourself.

[10fingers]

Stanfield, the Pineapple type grenade used by the US during WWII contained 50 grams of TNT. This was not very effctive.
The current grenade used by the US, the M67 contains 182 grams of composition B.

[stanfield]

182 grams !!!!!!!!!!!!?????????
this is huge !! these grenade can completely destroy your house !
Maybe this is not a fragmentation grenade, yes, with these type of grenade, I don't think there is a lot of explosive since the fragments do all the work... no?

NBK, could you give me more info on your system which is interesting...

thanx !

[xoo1246]

The fragmentation grenades used in sweden contains 190 grams of compressed TNT. I have thrown three of them, and no they don't blow up houses.

[stanfield]

yes, I thrust you but I thought 190 g of HE was very powerful...

[nbk2000]

It works like a meat grinder. Stuff goes in one end, the screw turns, and stuff comes out the other. Aldrich sells a powder addition funnel, look it up and copy it.

The pineapple grenade of WW2 was inefficent, not because of the filling, but because of the cast iron body which irregularly fragmented. Modern grenades use prefragmented bodies, like the serrated wire of the US grenades.

Foreign grenades use notch stamped steel, plastic embedded pellets, or other systems. The trend is getting away from large explosive fillings, both for economy of a precious commodity during war, but also to allow use in the confines of building in MOUT war.

some of the newest grenades on the market use golf ball sized bodies with one once HE fillers with an effective radius of only 5 meters. This is more than enough for clearing a room without fragments penetrating the wall you're hiding behind.

[stanfield]

thanx

A picture of my distillation apartus :
<img src="http://stanfield.150m.com/distill.jpg" alt="" />

oh! the price ? maybe 120 €...

see ya !

<small>[ March 27, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[mark]

RDX detcord: <a href="http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/High/DetCord-1.BMP" target="_blank">http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/High/DetCord-1.BMP</a>
Scrol down a bit and youll find it.

[Madog555]

Microtek, i am intriged by your plastisizeing method. how good does it work. i would like to try some of this. i have no beeswax but maybe if i search my house or ask my sister i can get some. also, i will have to go buy liquid latex, i dont realy know where i can find this, is it possible to use latex gloves disolved in gas? i thought maybe if i used a little more oil and a little less wax it would work good useing latex gloves.

[stanfield]

in his last post, Megalomania's is talking about ice bath :

"I know that may seem like it is a bit difficult, but you can get a freezing bath this low with dry ice ,CO2 and acetone (-86 °C). You can sub acetone with either alcohol (-72 °C), chloroform (-77 °C), ether (-100 °C), or by itself (-78.5 °C). The real challenge is getting enough of this stuff to matter at a price that will not break the bank."

do you think I could uses these ice bath with PETN nitration ?

madog555 & microtek, the plasticizing with latex glove really intrest me... tell me if it could be possible

thanx !

[Madog555]

sience that other rubber is used in semtex and microtek used liquid latex i figured latex gloves would work. they are pretty soft and seem like they would be good. my idea is to use heavy oil and latex gloves disolved in gas. this may sound realy stupid but maybe i will try to plastisize flour this way to see if it works good, then if it does i will use PETN.

[Anthony]

I don't know for definate, but a model shop would be a good place to ask for liquid latex.

Why would you need a -70*C or lower ice bath for making PETN???

<small>[ March 28, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[Zambosan]

Art supply stores are another source.

[stanfield]

with an ice bath like this you could add the PE very quickly since the temp would never rise to 30°C ! no ?

[wantsomfet]

Liquid Latex = well equiped sex shops. It's used to make tight fitting latex-clothes, painted on the body it "hardens" pretty quickly. Dunno about the solvents, if any are present...
Oh, and no a -70°C ice bath would not enable you to add the PE much more quickly or even all at once, local overheating due to so much PE reacting at once could still occur, IMHO.

<small>[ March 28, 2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]</small>

[Madog555]

wantsomfet, ive seen that on TV. i asked my dad about liquid latex and he said its used alot. i bet i can get it if i want. i just though that maybe latex gloves would work good for plastisizeing.

[Madog555]

i just have like 10g of PETN on hand and i want to make a little ball of plastique to play with. do you think it would be a good idea to water down the PETN with some Hexamine dinitrate? it would be like a shitty semtex. i just need some extra body without alot of lost power. i was thinking like 70% PETN and 30% HDN. do you think this will work good?

[Madog555]

here, i got an idea for solid latex, its based on microtek's method

5ml chainsaw lubricant
5ml white gas with 1g of wax and 1.5g of latex glove disolved in it

do any of you think this will work?

[stanfield]

Is there a way to "increase" the yield (which is already impresive!)by adding more nitric acid or something like that ?

thanx

[Bitter]

Plasticiser : Seeing as styrene is mentioned as an ingredient so often, then why can fibreglass resin not be used ? If it is too runny then the appropriate coloids can be added to 'stiffen' it without it hardening.

[mark]

Um, Im not shure if this would work, but ace sells liquid plastic in a can for diping metal in. Its for making plastic coverings on screwdrivers and pliers. Hope this helps. Im shure NBK knows the stuff.

[stanfield]

From how many grams of PETN all the windows of my house will crack ? assuming that I will made the first experiment in my garden on a steel piece...

thanx !

[Madog555]

i think im gona scrap the glove idea, i tried it today and i couldn't get the glove to disolve. i was heating it on a alchol burner and the eumes ignited makeing this failer double as a flameing infurno. luckily i wasn't burnt and my beaker wasn't broken, just charred.

i have a more simple plastisizer that i got outa KIPE1, it is 50% wax and 50% wheel bearing greese. it was originaly used to plasticize RDX by the japs. i will melt the wax then add the greese. then i will pour it onto my 50 PETN/50 HDN mix slowly.

ok, i may post pics

[Madog555]

does anyone have the lead block expansion, drop test, ect for PETN?

[stanfield]

According to the Chemistry of Powder and Explosives :
"In the drop test it is detonated by a 20-cm. drop of a 2-kilogram weight, sometimes by a drop of 10 or 15 cm."

[Yi]

Friction sensitivity: 60 Newtons
Impact sensitivity : 3 Nm (newton meters)

according to "The chemistry of explosives"

[Madog555]

thanks. What page is that on in COPAE is that on? i couldn't find it

does anyone have the lead block expansion or any other tests on the power of PETN

[mongo blongo]

My brother uses liquid latex for his theatrical make-up course in college. I've got some here - ingredients: Natural latex, water, ammonia, tetramethyl thiuram disulfide and zinc oxide. Apparently they sell it in joke shops.

[10fingers]

Look on page 280 of COPAE.

[Madog555]

ok, maybe ill check the joke shop near me.

thanks 10fingers

[stanfield]

Why don't you plasticize 85 g of PETN with 10 g of wax and 5 g of vaseline ? Is it a shitty method ? (=> Concealing PETN.pdf, findable somewhere on the Forum FTP)

Could PETN be plasticized like RDX for C1 (lecithin, mineral oil...) ?

[Madog555]

stanfield, i dont have 85g and i like the wheel bearing greese because it is real gooey(alot like vaseline) and meltable

yeas, i would say that it definately can be plastisized any way that RDX can, they are very similar...

[Yi]

Relative Brisanse of PETN is 126, where TNT is 100, RDX 112, and Picric Acid is 141.

Source: "Handbook of Pyrotechnics" by Karl O Brauer

[stanfield]

by plasticizing my PETN with this method (vaseline and wax), what are the consequences about the power of explosive ? what is his new VoD ?

thanx for all !

[Yi]

Not sure, but RDX/Wax at 91%/9% give relative brisanse of 121 on the same scale.

[Microtek]

Well that's a lot of posts since the last time I was here.
Concerning the latex plastique, it is the result of trying to plasticize RDX which was the only really good HE I was able to synthesize until about 2 months ago.
Now I guess some explaining is in order: It is a matter of standpoint; my standpoint which is reflected in my name is that my weapons, explosives, etc must be as small as possible, in order to be so concealable that they wouldn't be likely to be found even if I was searched. Example: Concealing enough explosive to shatter a car window or a padlock within a ball-point pen so well that it wouldn't be found even if the pen was taken apart.
If something like this is to be accomplished, the detonator must be equally small so the plastique must be quite sensitive.
80 parts RDX to 20 parts inert plasticizer is barely cap-sensitive, so I worked quite hard to find something that would give good cohesiveness and plasticity with as little as 10 % plasticizer. Liquid latex did the trick.
The solvent in liquid latex is ammonia water, but when the NH3 has evaporated, it cures and isn't easily dissolved. Note that in the procedure that I proposed, it doesn't dissolve either. It is reduced to small droplets and acts as a crosslinking agent when worked into the HE.

[Madog555]

what about 20% oil/wax/wheel bearing greese and 40%PETN and 40% hexamine dinitrate? will 500mg of PETN detonate that?

[Microtek]

Probably not. I suggest you plasticize HMTD with your binder of choice and then see how powerful the detonator must be to detonate it. It will give you an idea about the less sensitive secondaries.

[stanfield]

Yeeeeeeehaaaaaa ! I justed tested out my detonator :
- 1 g of PETN (a bit less...)
- a little bit of DDNP
- sodium chlorate/Sugar/nitrocellulose laquer/filament lamp for the igniter
- Jumala's timer

This blasting cap was extremely powerful ! works pretty fine !

see ya !

[Madog555]

cool, i have a pic of what a 1g PETN det did to a 1/4 inch piece of plywood.

the link MUST be copied and pasted.
<a href="http://ara.7h.com/hole.JPG" target="_blank">http://ara.7h.com/hole.JPG</a>

edit: and on the detonator, i think i will use a 500mg PETN det inside a .44 mag of pressed TNP. this should set it off.

<small>[ April 02, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

Microtek: if you have any sorbitol, try nitrating that and using the crude product as a plasticiser for PETN or MHN - the mixture of nitrated sorbitols is about as sensitive as MHN, in the form of a sticky liquid. Tiny little primary charges should set it off.

[stanfield]

Haven't you got a better description of the nitration ? any ratio ? 'cause I could have sorbitol and, maybe, I could try :)
<img src="http://stanfield.150m.com/sorbitol.jpg" alt="" />

[Madog555]

go to his site for a nice procedure

[stanfield]

"his site" ? which site ?

[Mr Cool]

<a href="http://www.flashbangboom.homestead.com/procedures.html" target="_blank">http://www.flashbangboom.homestead.com/procedures.html</a>

Edit: it might not work as a plasticiser, I haven't tried it, and if it did work it wouldn't be suitable for large charges due to the sensitivity. So unless you'd also use sorbitol for other things, like rockets, it might not be worth getting any... but if you have some lying around then try it.

Another edit: I'll try it some time soon, and let you know if it works or not.

<small>[ April 03, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</small>

[stanfield]

since I could have access to polyisobutylene, I think it's the best way to plasticize this stuff even if it's really expensive... (50 g -> 40€)

[Zambosan]

Microtek: when the liquid latex cures, it crosslinks to form a rubbery solid that will not "flow" like the liquid. I have a friend who would really like to try your method on HMTD... however, I'm curious as to why not just use the liquid latex au naturale? Wouldn't the beeswax and oil just get in the way of the crosslinking reaction? I imagine you've tried this, just curious before my, er, friend does. :biggrin:

<small>[ April 03, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[Kekule]

I read that a "highly" aluminized mixture of PETN and Aluminiumpowder, mixed in a ratio of 40 /60 is used as so called incendary charge by the US-Army. I want do arise the question, whether someone has dreamed about such an charge already or if someone has got some extended information about aluminized high explosives, especially on aluminized PETN. It would be interresting, whether the 60/40 mixture of AL/PETN is as cap sensitive as pure PETN or if an larger blasting cap is required.
My last question is, whether this mixture or an mixture with an other ratio, or even a mixture of PETN, Aluminium and a oxidizing agent(XNO3,XClO4) could be used as a flash powder substitute (Any suggestions about the mesh size of the Aluminiumparticles?).

[mongo blongo]

I imagine that the smaller the particle size the better. I might try this with RDX. I use Al powder in my Lead Azide primary and it seems to be a slightly better initiator.

[a_bab]

Stanfield, I saw in some book stores a substance used for glueing papers on the wall. It's something yellow very close to C4 in apearance, and I guess it contains some (poly)isobutadiene. You might try to disolve it in gasoline...I'll tell you tommorow the brand name. And chewing gum may be another posibility.

Hope that nobody posted something about this, because I did't read all the thread.

[Anthony]

I've tried a few grams of PETN with something like 1/3 - 1/2 Al added, it gave a nice blast and a bright flash. Apparently it's supposed to have thermobarric properties.

Can't really tell you anymore about it though.

[Microtek]

Zambosan: The point in having oil and wax in the mixture is precisely to interfere with the crosslinking, otherwise you get an elastic PBX rather than a plastique. This is certainly useful in other applications and I have used it at times but plastique is more versatile.

[Zambosan]

Hokay, thank you very much, we'll see how it goes (could take a while, still gotta hunt up some related stuff). My friend plans to leave a small amount sitting around in a safe place for a looong time to see the effects of aging. The HMTD to be plasticized will be *thoroughly* pH neutralized. Any related experiences?

[stanfield]

yes a_bab, give me the name, maybe we have equivalent here in france...

could modeling clay be used for plasticizing PETN ?

Edit : but if it's glue, I think it will harden went dry ? no ? I want something "modelable"...

thanx for all !

<small>[ April 04, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[stanfield]

A few day ago, we were spoken Grenade...
I found an interesting page of current fragmentation grenade from all over the world !

<a href="http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/currentfrag/currentfrag.htm" target="_blank">http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/currentfrag/currentfrag.htm</a>

and the main page is : <a href="http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/" target="_blank">http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/</a>

see ya !

<small>[ April 05, 2002, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[ThaFreak]

Try to solve some polystyreen into acetone. (im srry, dont know this is the correct translation from the word: "Piepschuim" its dutch..)

It should form a sticky solution, when the acetone vaporates you will have a solid plastic thingy. Try to plasticize your PETN whit this stuff.

Srry for my fucked up english...

[stanfield]

I know this method but it harden when dry... and I want something modelable...

thanx !

<small>[ April 05, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[Bitter]

I have bought some of this putty-like stuff. It's called butyl mastic and it says 'non-setting' on it. I don't know if this stuff contains the PIB we all seem to be looking for, but it might be worth trying to extract it just to see. I'm planning on giving it a go sometime in the future...

[a_bab]

With polystirene you'll get some sort of nicolit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

The glue I talked about I saw in France. The brand name is "adhésif repositionnable". Try to buy some from a store where you can buy paper, ink, pens, folders, markers, you know, office stuff.

It is used to glue papers on a "tableau d'affichage".

[stanfield]

Oh yes ! I have this stuff at home :) Do you really think it could have some PIB in it ? If yes, how to extract it ? by dissolving in acetone or toluene I presume...

thanx !

[stanfield]

huuuuum....
I was thinking at something last hour :
if I do the mix : polystyrene, aceton, PETN and if I add a few percentage of Bis(2-ethylhexyl) sebacate (which is supposed to keep elasticity), do you think I could obtain a modelable stuff or this shit won't work and I'm going to have a piece of stone...

Any reply is more than appreciated...

[Bitter]

Stanfield : Petroleum would be better for dissolving PIB. Apparently, it's a trace fuel additive too and where the hell would you get Bis(2-ethylhexyl) sebacate from ?

[stanfield]

I have a source for dioctyle sebacate, don't worry... but will it work ?
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/stanfield999/sebacate.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/stanfield999/sebacate.jpg" target="_blank">Right click, choose "Copy Shortcut", and paste into your browser URL window to see the picture.</a>

see ya !

<small>[ April 06, 2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

If you want a good source for PIB that is easy to find, look in the thread "C4 Plastique with Added HMX".

[wantsomfet]

Bis(2-ethylhexyl) sebacate is available from MERCK. Not directly cause they don't sell to individuals but nearly any chem supplier that sell non-prohibited, non-hazardous chems to individuals will sell it... 1 Liter ca. 25-30€, it was no problem for me...

[stanfield]

And if I had some grease in the polysterene method, will I "soften" the mix ? (sorry for my bad english...)

thanx !

[stanfield]

and what about this recipe (from KIPE #2) ? is it reliable ?
but what's "a polymerizable silicone oil " ? is silicone good for tha job ? (since I could buy it from hardware store...)

SILICONE PLASTIQUE #6

This plastique makes use of a polymerizable silicone oil matrix
with a crystalline high explosive. This gives plastique explosives with
good high and low temperature plasticity. Storage stability is good and the
detonation velocity is very high as well as is the brisance. The oil is
gelled by heating with benzoil peroxide. The gell formed is mixed with the
powdered high explosive. This is kneaded with gloved hands until a uniform
mixture is formed. High explosives used can be one of the following: R.D.X.
(see Kitchen Improvised Plastic Explosives or section in this book), PETN
(See Kitchen Improvised Plastic Explosives or the section in this book),
Picric Acid (See Kitchen Improvised Plastic Explosives), Mannitol
Octanitrate (see Kitchen Improvised Blasting Caps), Tetryl (see Kitchen
Improvised Blasting Caps). Explosive performance will vary, of course, with
the high explosive used. R.D.X. and P.E.T.N. will give the highest
performance. This plastique is easily made and has very high performance.
The precursors are not as easily found as other plastique formulations in
this book. Detonation velocity will be between 6700 M/sec. to 8100 M/sec.
This variation will depend upon the high explosive chosen.

MANUFACTURE-

Obtain a polymerizable silicone oil with a viscosity @ 100 degrees
F., of 1000 centistrokes. Place 150 grams of the oil in a beaker. To this
is added .75 grams of benzoyl peroxide. This peroxide is widely used as a
catalyst in the plastic industry. The mixture is heated with stirring until
the oil polymerizes into a stiff tacky gell. Mix this gell intimately with
850 grams of crystalline high explosive. This is mixed by stirring or
kneading with gloved hands until a very uniform mixture is formed. This
explosive is plastic from -65 degrees F. to 170 degrees F. It is sensitive
to a #6 blasting cap. It is almost an equivalent of C-4 in power and in
usability.

Any reply is more than appreciated : :rolleyes:

[Anthony]

A "polymerizable silicone oil" is one that will undergo polymerization when reacted with the benzoyl peroxide, giving it a higher molecular weight.

I should imagine that most oils would work, getting one of the correct viscosity might be tricky. Unless 1000 centistrokes happens to be a common automative viscosities: 8/12weight etc).

Benzoyl peroxide is the catalyst used to cure many things, from fibreglass to car body filler.

If the oil is easy to get I might try this one myself with PETN.

[cutefix]

A specific silicon oil which is applicable and used by the silicone type PBX developers are General Electric # 81245 of the same viscosity specs as Anthony quoted; catalyzed by 0.5 % benzoyl peroxide,then heated to 125C for 10 minutes to form a tacky gel that is satisfactory for a plastic explosive formulation.
If you mix 10 parts of this gel with 90 parts (all by weight) with RDX or PETN it will form a rubbery dough like paste.However if you mix only 15 parts of this gel with the crystalline explosive it will appear softer and if you pull it apart it will form whiskers.
You can also use only minimal amount of gel (say 3%) but it will result in a firmer texture and and not as rubbery.However it will contain more explosive particulates than the others(97%).It will still exhibit good temperature stability,and results in superior explosive power.This higher amount of explosive content is recommended to be used only for RDX which is less sensitive than PETN.
It is safer to handle a plastic explosive made with PETN if it contains more binder;a compromise ratio that will satisfy both handling safety and detonating power is this: 85%PETN, and 15% of this binder.More than that its not recommended specially for less experienced explosive fromulators.

[stanfield]

ok, so this recipe seems to be reliable...
I can get silicone for molding uses, do you think it's good ? (it's a bit expensive...)

Secondly, could benzoyl peroxide be substitued with an another chemical because it's REALLY expensive ! 100 g for 20€ !

thanx for all !

[Anthony]

100gm of benzoyl peroxide will make 20kg of this plastic explosive!

[stanfield]

oups sorry, I saw 5% of peroxyde... instead of 0.5 %. Effectively, I could make about 20 kg of plastic...

Will my molding silicon works ?

thanx!

[Zambosan]

Silicone oil is sold as a spray for shining automotive tires, keeps the rubber supple & protects from road salt, etc. I'm not sure of its purity, however... anyone know if silicone oil is sold in HW stores as a light lubricant or not? I'll check next time I'm at one...

[stanfield]

"a spray for shining automotive tires" ???? But siliconbe is a paste, no ? not a liquid !?

[Zambosan]

This is a silicone *oil* being discussed... silicone rubber already has a curing agent in it that releases acetic acid as it cures... not sure what it is.

[stanfield]

whoaaa ! It will be hard to buy the right stuff ! I will try in an auto shop, maybe they could inform me about this...

[cutefix]

There might be alternative silicones that behaves like these materials.Please check with your chemical supplier for alternatives.Using any silicone pastes or oil may not give you the good results.These items I mentioned are U.S. made ;and I do not know if there is the exact European equivalent.
Many of these polymerizable silicones already contain little benzoyl peroxide.You can try also heating silicone oil and see if the gelatinize.But its best to get the right material.
Another easier and safer way (if you can have access to both materials) is to combine in proper proportions of the selected silicone pastes and silicone oil and heat them up.
Such as this formulation:
Blend 2 parts of polymerizable silicon pastes(e.g.,Dow Corning Silastic 126) with 3 ½ parts(all by weight) of polymerizable silicone oil which has a viscosity of 40 centistokes at 37C(e.g.,General Electric Silicon oil#9981) and stir heavily(mechanical stirring).
It will form a heavy cream like mixture.Then heat it to about 150C while stirring (about 15 minutes).You will notice that when the temperature reaches 125 C gelation starts and is done when the 150Cmark is reached.It will thicken further when cooled to room temperature.
You can use 15parts of this material to plasticize 85 parts of crystalline explosive.The resulting plastic explosive is cohesive and will form whiskers when pulled apart.

Another blend is Dow Corning silicone paste(silastic 122) –one part & Dow Corning silicone grease#7-four parts (all by weight) and do the same procedure as with the above in heating it to cure.
The density of the resulting plastic explosive from will be around 1.40-1.45,and will detonate at about 7000 meters per second (with RDX).This applicable to PETN also but Vod is slightly lesser.

It is possible to make a plastic explosive with just silicon paste alone but be sure that you are using a stable explosive and well prepared(like purified RDX that has a melting point of above 200C)Other explosives like PETN will explode if done in this way,as well as impure RDX that may have melting point below 200C(contains traces of unstable nitramine derivatives ).
There are other less known procedures used to prepare plastic explosives but appears somewhat risky,but was well tested with milspecsRDX .
Check this out.
. Mix this raw silicone paste(Dow Corning Silastic 126) with pure granular RDX at (15/85 ratio). It will form a greasy sand like consistency, Heat it to 150C carefully for two hours(in the oven) it will thicken(polymerize).If cooled to room temperature it will form a somewhat firmer plastic explosive.It will bounce when dropped on the floor and looks firm like hard rubber.However it will detonate satisfactorily when initiated.

Regarding that GeneralElectric #81245 silicon oil I mentioned in an earlier post;.it already contains benzoyl peroxide,the added 0.5% was for faster hardening.If you mix it raw with your explosive (preferably RDX) at 15/85 ratio (silicone/explosive) it will form a greasy mixture(but not plastic). Bake it in oven at 100 C. for two hours,then remove from oven;it will gelatinize and result in a moldable plastic consistency when cooled.
Most of these resulting plastic explosives will detonate nicely even with a no.8 blasting cap.
This latter methods were well tested with RDX,but regarded as unsafe to be used with PETN.

<small>[ April 09, 2002, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

[stanfield]

why "but regarded as unsafe to be used with PETN" ?

Otherwise, I can get silicon oil :
<img src="http://stanfield.150m.com/silicon%20oil.jpg" alt="" />

maybe copy and paste <a href="http://stanfield.150m.com/silicon%20oil.jpg" target="_blank">http://stanfield.150m.com/silicon%20oil.jpg</a>

see ya

[cutefix]

Several years ago ,an explosive technology student who tried it in his home had his oven blown when he baked a pound of that silicone/explosive mixture,(in order to cure it)and he was hurt by some fragments(although not serious because he was some distance from the oven and doing another chore).There was a discusssion by his pyro friends why it happened.The only culprit noted was due to PETN.It was tested before with RDX,but was okay.
I reckon that one of the reason why it happened is the presence of impurities in home synthesized explosives;another is the oven temperature gauge was not working properly and the oven overheated; affecting first the surface of the plastic explosive and reached the melting temperature of PETN,which led to decomposition and initiation.Remember PETN has lower melting point(about 140C)vs 205C for RDX.

BTW, that item,you mentioned is low molecular weight non polymerizable type.Needs to be blended to high molecular weight silicone oil such as 1:4 ratio (respectively); and you still have to add crosslinker like benzoyl peroxide at about 1%in order to get a gel.
It will be difficult just to pick any silicone oil because of product specification that you may not understand.
Check for polymerizable silicon products oils,greases,or compound in which you can disperse your powdered explosives easily and is then cured by slow heating (or other means).

It might be easier and safer for you to use silicon rubber compound similar specs to this:
<a href="http://www.chenguang-chemi.com/RTV_silicone_rubber.htm" target="_blank">http://www.chenguang-chemi.com/RTV_silicone_rubber.htm</a>
You mix the the required quantity fluid /paste silicone material with the explosives,evenly then let it cure,depending on the characteristics of the coating material.
Presto you have a silicone bonded plastic explosive!

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

[stanfield]

how do you know the silicon oil I mentioned isn't polymerizable ?

secondly, in my molding putty for hair, there is :
- methylparaben : 500g -> 26.07 €
- butylparaben : 500g -> 46.50 €
- ethylparaben : 1 Kg -> 58.39 €
- propylparaben : 500g -> 35.83
- isobutylparaben : no found, don't available...

and this putty is really modelable like C-4 or semtex, more of that, I can buy all the chemical from ACROS, so do you think this is a good way to plasticize PETN ?

thanx :)

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

hello !
i just receive my h2so4 95 % and my kno3 and i try the method to make petn with this substances.
i have a question: i put h2so4 + kno3 in a beaker and the kno3 disseapears (its normal) but when i add the PE it dont want dissolve. the solution become a little white and that all ... is it normal ? how long time do i have to wait for a complete nitration of Pe ?

the powder i obtained after i filtred was burning easily so i think its petn because PE is not burning at all and kno3 too...

thx for your answers ... !

ci@o
bonn's

<small>[ April 10, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

i forgot to say that i have put my "petn" in acetone and it disapeared !! then i add a lot of water and i saw "snow" in the beaker ! a lot of fine cristals ! beautiful !!

after i try to dissolve PE in acetone: impossible.

do you think my product is petn?
i think so.

ci@o
bonn's

[wantsomfet]

You answered yourself, man. You made PETN. Nitration time should be between 30 and max. 80 minutes.

[da man]

i once heard a recipe for plasticising PETN with a small amount of nitroglycerine. I think it said to mix 12ml of nitro with 80 grams of PETN. It also said that it was more powerful than c-4! Though it would be quite sensitive also. I might try this when i get some PE to make PETN, except using Methyl nitrate instead of nitro. Will this work do u think?

[nbk2000]

It might. Though it may be the viscosity of the NG is important to the plasticizing effect.

And I would certainly think it more powerful then C-4. PETN is on par with RDX. NG is very powerful too. And C-4 is 10-15% inert binder.

Whereas the PETN/NG plastique is 100% energetic.

[stanfield]

Interesting but I really hate making nitroglycerine and the use of a binder is to desensibilize the HE no ? here you make a super sensitive material... not funny !

edit : furthermore, do you think the final product is modelable like C-4 or semtex ?

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[da man]

If it is the stability that puts you off perhaps you could use a more stable liquid explosive to plasticise the PETN. Perhaps PGDN, Nitroglycol, or DNT, these are all reasonably stable and easy to make, so would be good alternatives to the nitroglycerine. Iam going to try this soon using methyl nitrate instead, i will tell you my results.

And yes, i heard that when it is plasticised with nitroglycerine at least that it is easily mouldable like semtex or C-4

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: da man ]</small>

[a_bab]

BUT if you'll use metyl nitrate (which is too volatile) I don't know how you' gonna mold this "semtex"...Maybe wrapped in some platic bag. Not talking about the head-aches (NG, MN).

[stanfield]

Ok, If we come back, we wrote that :
SEMTEX 1A
Pentrite: 76%
Hexogene: 4,6%
Styren-butadiene rubber: 9,4%
n-octyl-phtalate, butyl-citrate: 9%
Antioxidant and dye:
(N-phenyl-2-naphtylamin, Sudan IV) 1%

someone said that Styren-butadiene rubber is nothing more than car tyre, that's right ? ok, so, this "chemical" is available anywhere in the world, maybe we should try to plasticize PETN with this one before speaking polyisobutylene or another amazing name of chemical which are very expensive and rare...

But what's the method of plasticizing PETN with car tyre ? I take a tyre of my mother's car, cut it into small portion, and disolve it into hot toluene then I add my PETN ?

what are the other chemicals : n-octyl-phtalate, butyl-citrate & (N-phenyl-2-naphtylamin, Sudan IV) ?

thanx

[stanfield]

I just did a search on google and I found that n-octyl-phtalate is the chemical who keep the elasticity of the product but I NEVER found it in any of my catalog, so, could it be replaced with ethyl hexyl sebacate (from C-4) ?

thanx

[nbk2000]

The NG would be stabilized and desensitize by adsorbtion in the PETN, just as with dynamite.

Whatever you're using, it has to be non-volatile, non-hydroscopic (water absorbing), and not toxic to handle.

DNT is toxic through skin absorbtion. MeN is volatile. EGDN is hydroscopic.

And all of them are weaker than NG.

The purpose of a binder isn't to desensitize an explosive (though it often has that effect). Rather, it's to make it capable of being formed like putty. Which is what you're after.

[stanfield]

Yes I want a modelable stuff...

I have just searched the other chemical in the ACROS catalog and they aren't very expensive...
butyl-citrate (Tributyl citrate) --> 1kg for 52.75€
Sudan IV --> 100g for 34.15€

If you give me the right procedure to dissolve my tyres, I think I'm able to make real semtex...

see ya !

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[wantsomfet]

@stanfield
SUDAN IV (or what number ever) is only the coloring. Red in this case. Shouldn't be needed.

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]</small>

[stanfield]

muhahahahaha, the colorant is the most funny thing in a plastic explosives, this shouldn't be owned :) !

What are the color of other "Sudan" ? could Sudan I, II or III be substitued for Sudan IV ?

what chemical should be able to dissolve car tyres ?

see ya !

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[Bitter]

Stanfield, even if you could find a way of dissolving tires, it's not even pure butadiene rubber; it's a mixture of latex and butadiene in order to reduce the cost without reducing the gas-retaining effectiveness.

[stanfield]

latex with tyre ? no problemo, latex is available anywhere... especially chemistry gloves... or preservative :)

edit : but which ratio with car tyres ? 50/50 ? Does acetone dissolve latex too ?

thanx

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[nbk2000]

What's UFHWE stand for?

[stanfield]

UFHWE ? heu..... what's it ?

[mongo blongo]

Energetic Azido plasticizers sound quite interesting and would work very well for this purpose. It can be made from Sodium Azide but I can't find much on synth. If I do, I will post it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Anthony]

Stanfield, Bitter doesn't mean you need to mix the tyre material with latex, he means that tyres are made of a mixture of butadiene rubber and latex. I.e the tyres aren't pure butadiene.

[stanfield]

ah ok... not understood :)

but I'm always seeking for a chemical able to dissolve tyres...

edit : is the latex in tyre a bad thing to plasticize PETN ?

<small>[ April 11, 2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[10fingers]

UFHWE=Uncle Festers Home Workshop Explosives.

[stanfield]

a book, rigth ? what wrote this Uncle ? (especially about PETN...)

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

Is it on the FTP?

[nbk2000]

Yes.

[Bitter]

Stanfield, you can't dissolve rubber one it has set, and certainly not after it has been vulcanized. Also, it's a co-polymer, so it would be difficult to sepparate the butadiene from the isoprene even if you did find away.

[stanfield]

even in hot toluene or benzene ?

I just tested out the wax/vaseline method and it's a piece of shit, because the plastic is caking, you must keep this "plastic" in a plastic bag in order to be effecient... really a big shit !

edit : and the ftp don't work anymore so, it's impossible to download this files... in which directory was it before ?

edit 2 : have you seen my post on methylparaben ? I think it could be a good alternative to plasticize thie explosive. THERE MUST BE A SIMPLY WAY TO BIND THIS EXPLOSIVE !!! :)

<small>[ April 12, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[Pentrinit]

First sorry for my english <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

This mixture of PETN + Ng is called Pentrinit.
10 - 70% PETN
90 - 30% Ng
A better choice is a mixture of PETN, Ng and NC. 50% PETN, 46% Ng and 4% NC is the best. At a density of 1,67 g/cm2 this had a detonation velocity of 7600m/s. I`ve tried this a few times and it workes great :) . It can be initiated with 0,1g HMTD.

[Microtek]

In my experience, simply mixing PETN and NG will not do the trick. It will simply produce a "damp" mass of PETN crystals and not a homogeneous mass.
Maybe if both explosives were dissolved in acetone which was then evaporated.
Regarding plasticizers, I recommend always adding heavy motor oil or better yet, oil for chainsaw blades. The addition of oil makes the plastique soft and also acts as a binder because it gets so sticky, especially when mixed with wax.

[stanfield]

aaah ! thanx for the "oil tip" ! I will try with oil as soon as possible :) have u got an idea of the amount needed ?

thanx for all

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Why plasticize it in the first place? Plastique is good for a few applications, but not most. It be cool and all to have PETN plastic explosives, but i personally wouldnt go throght the trouble of plasticizing it.

[stanfield]

with a plastic explosive, you can encircle a tree, a door, ... you don't need to press the explosive and to put it in a pipe or something like that, it's handy :)

see ya !

[Microtek]

I agree with stanfield there; if you need to carry a certain amount of explosive without knowing what it will be used for, you can't beat the versatility of plastique.
Whether you need to make a ribbon charge, an LSC, a Munroe charge or just to cram it into a thin crevice or key-hole plastique will do the trick. It may not be the best choice for all applications, but it will be usable.

[stanfield]

Maybe I got an idea :
you all know these pistol :
<img src="http://stanfield.150m.com/gluepistol.jpg" alt="" />
who are working with these sticks :
<img src="http://stanfield.150m.com/stix.gif" alt="" />

so, If I melt these stix and before it harden, I add a chemical to force the glue to become modelable (with motor oil, wax, vaseline, I don't know...), could it work ?

thanx and sorry for my bad english

(all the pictures are viewable on my <a href="http://stanfield.150m.com/" target="_blank">site</a> )

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

I agree with you there but it is cool to have some "C4" if you know what I mean. :)
Regarding the particle size, I think it is always best to use a solvent! It is much safer and more efficient than other methods of particle size reduction (like simply crushing the crystals).

Edit-Plastique is definitely my favorite form of explosive!

<small>[ April 13, 2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[Microtek]

In plastique the explosive density will be lower than in sufficiently pressed powder, simply because you add inert binder material.
Regarding the use of platique, the only thing you achieve by plasticizing your explosive rather than bonding it with another type of binder such as latex, is that you can mold it and thus use it in a greater range of applications ( saddle, diamond, etc ).
As for what is the most desirable plasticizer, when we are talking inert ones, the chief concern is that as little inert matter should be in the plastique as possible. This is due to two things:
- It insures that the explosive is reliably cap-sensitive
( especially important when using RDX ).
- It diminishes the explosive power as little as possible.

The difficulty lies in finding something that will give good handling qualities with only about 10 % plasticizer in the product.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Not tying to shoot the plastique idea down, but I dont think making home made platique out of shit found around the house is worth the trouble. You'll probally end up having to add tons of binder that will dull down the power of the explosive to get good plastique.

If you want high density, then cast your explosives.

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[Microtek]

Different crystalline HEs have different capacities for compression so to speak; RDX is usually only pressed to about 1.55 g/cc but can get to 1.7 if you try a bit harder. PETN is about the same, while MHN which has a crystal density of 1.73 is quite easily pressed to 1.7 g/cc. If you require a high density explosive I would suggest dissolving the HE in a solvent along with something like NC. This will produce a quite high density if the evaporation process is good ( which it isn't with acetone/NC ). Especially dissolving PETN or RDX in TNT gives good results.
Regarding pressing the crystalline explosives, it very much depends how large a charge you are considering; a 4 mm coloumn for use as a detonator would require 17.6 Kg of weight on the ramrod to achieve 2000 psi.
Regarding homemade plastique, heavy oil as a binder and softener, wax as a plasticizer and some sort of crosslinking agent ( this is where I use latex ) is really all that is neccessary. As I said, 10-15% inert material depending on the type of HE was all that was required in my case.

[stanfield]

what's your ratio with oil, latex and wax ?
thanx

[Microtek]

5 mL oil, 2 g wax dissolved in gasoline. About 0.5-1 mL latex added with stirring maintained for 2 min.
Note that the latex I use is for making molds in hobby-work; I don't think it's the same that is used for painting on people for arousal.

[stanfield]

ok, thanx !
The oil you're using comes from chainsaw blade, that's right ??
And the latex ? from gloves ?

and the most important question : how many grams of PETN are in your mixture ?

So, the procedure :
- you dissolve 5 ml of oil and 2g of wax in some gasoline (or acetone...) then you add your latex to this mixture while stirring vigourously.
- You add your PETN to this solution with a vigourous stirring too then you let evaporate the gasoline (or acetone...) right ?

thanx again !

[mongo blongo]

He did say what latex he uses:
"the latex I use is for making molds in hobby-work"
It's right there :)

[stanfield]

oups sorry, I don't saw...
What's the best place to obtain this ? hardware store ?

see ya!

[Microtek]

The latex is found in hobby stores. 15 % of the finished product is binder/plasticizer, but when you mix it there is some gasoline in it too; you have to take this into account. You should use un-leaded gasoline, not acetone - acetone will not dissolve wax.

[stanfield]

ok, only unlead gasoline, but how much PETN ? 85g ?

see ya!

[bonnsgeo]

just a question about an other subject: if i have 68 % nitric acid, how many sulfuric acid 95% do i have to use to make petn ?
i found 14.1 ml of sulfu for 20 ml of nitric.is that right ?
thx

---------------
Allez Thomas on y croit !

[Phoenix]

use as much hno3 as h2so4 and distill it (:
yield is MUCH greater

[stanfield]

I haven't found latex for now so I can't try to plasticize the PETN but, an another question :
I use PETN in all my detonators and I fill the tube with about 1g or more PETN, so, what's the quivalence ? I mean #1 to #8 :)

thanx !

[Microtek]

I've seen somewhere, that a typical modern number 8 blasting cap contains 0.3 g primary such as lead azide and 0.8 g PETN or RDX.

[stanfield]

ok, thanx !
could grease be used in the plasticizing of PETN ? Grease is modelable enough, so I can add an another product to harden a little bit this grease and voila, semtex ! :)

[da man]

This might be a bit of a stupid question, but can i make PETN with 70% nitric acid, if i were to add about 30% sulfuric acid to dehydrate the water? I don't see why this wouldn't work since sulfuric acid can be used in PETN manufacture(H2SO4/KNO3 method). How much sulfuric should i add, would 1ml of H2SO4 for every ml of water be sufficient as it is a powerful dehydrating agent and it only needs to absorb the initial water in the nitric?

So could you please tell me if this method will work. Thanx

[Madog555]

yes, that will work, there was a method for HNO3/H2SO4 posted by wantsomfet not long ago

[da man]

Maddog, i did alot of searches on that but i didn't find anything, i even did a search using his member number and "PETN" and all i got was this topic and the lydite topic. Could it be in the archives, well if you know where it is could you please tell me, i would really like to know that method.

Thanks

[megalomania]

I am currently doing research on the synthesis of energetic binders and plasticizers, a new field that has really taken off since the 1980's. These substances add nitro, nitroester, and azide functional groups onto traditional binders and plasticizers to eliminate the problem of inert binders (like all of the binders mentioned in this thread). To go back to the original post, the use of nitroglycerin has fallen by the wayside, it is actually one of the first energetic plasticizers (and one of the first plasticizers period I believe). Nitroglycerin has since been replaced by other more stable nitroesters (my new favorite word of the month...) such as butanetriol trinitrate (BTTN), ethyleneglycol dinitrate (EGDN), triethyleneglycol (TEGDN), and trimethylol ethane nitrate (TMETN). All of these are related to nitroglycerine as they they come from nitrating poly alcohols. My first energetic substance (should be ready in a couple of weeks) is the binder glycidyl azide polymer, both hydroxyl terminated and azide terminated for use with different curing agents. These substances will completly replace all inert binders in plastic explosives within the next decade or so (some have already been replaced). The same goes for propellents (rocket, bullet, and shell).

[stanfield]

I just found & bought liquid latex (1L for 17€) but this product stinks ammonia, do you think the mix with PETN could become dangerous ? (maybe the liquid latex stinks ammonia but there isn't a ml of ammonia in it ! :) )

thanx !

[mongo blongo]

Yes there probably is ammonia in it (there is in the stuff my brother has). I don't know what effect this will have on the PETN but if you are worried about it then you could let the latex dry out. When this is done the ammonia should have evaporated out and then you can dissolve it in the solvent as you would with normal latex.

[stanfield]

maybe, if I dissolve liquid latex in unlead gasoline, this will "erase" all traces of ammonia... ?

My idea is to follow the Microtek's procedure to plasticize PETN :
- 1 mL latex
- 5 mL heavy oil
- 2 g of wax
are dissolved in white gas then you add your PETN.

thanx !

[stanfield]

I ask this beacause I know RDX is very unstable in basic solution : it could explose ! But PETN is very different...

[Microtek]

As far as I know, ammonia is the usual way to inhibit the curing of latex. I don't think it will be a problem with PETN ( or RDX for that matter, afterall we use bicarb solution to neutralize RDX and that is alkaline ). There is a patent using latex for binder in a PBX with PETN as the explosive I think it was in 'concealed PETN explosives' or some such.
Regarding dissolving the latex in something after it has cured, I doubt if that will work. My disposable examination gloves which I use in the lab are made of latex and aren't easily dissolved ( except maybe in xylene or dichloromethane ).

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[stanfield]

butyl rubber caulk ? haven't you got the exact name of the product and his use ?

thanx

[10fingers]

*

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[stanfield]

so, it keeps flexible when dry ? very interesting ! I will ask my hardware shop... Could you try to buy this stuff then disolving in toluene and add a small amount of latex or silicon ? Maybe it won't harden !

[stanfield]

yeah ! I just found, in my hardware shop, your butyl rubber caulk, I will buy it as soon as possible and try to plasticize PETN with it. It's sold with a "hardener" (diperoxybenzoyle If I remember correctly...) but witout this one, it won't harden :) !

see you later for the test !

[stanfield]

Have you tried to mix it with heavy oil or latex ? (maybe silicon)
I think it could be interesting to add Ethyl Hexyl Sebacate...

see ya !

[mongo blongo]

PIB shouldn't be that sticky.Are you sure all the solvent has evaporated? The PIB will be sticky to itself (it will kind of fuse together).
If it's as sticky as you say then it is quite possible that you have some kind of plasticizer in it.

[stanfield]

The only important question : could it plasticize PETN ?

[stanfield]

Why don't you try to neutralize the calcium carbonate with a little amount of dilute HCl ? Is it safe for the polyisobtylene ?

edit : I just saw on google that calcium carbonate "violently react with water"... This means that water destruct it ?

<small>[ April 28, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[kingspaz]

calcium carbonate doesn't react with water. if it did then there wouldn't be the white cliffs of dover. calcium CARBIDE however does react violently with water producing acetylene.

[mongo blongo]

Neutralizing the calcium carbonate with HCl will not make the impurities disappear(you should know that)! The calcium carbonate has to be physically removed.
10fingers - Just out of curiosity, what colour was your polyisobutylene once it was purified?

[stanfield]

sorry for the HCl, I didn't thought correctly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[stanfield]

Ok, I just bought the product... effectively, it's white and very sticky. So, I dissolve it in Toluene (maybe acetone?) Then I pour off the calcium carbonate on the top of the solution then I let evaporate the solvent to get the pure polyisobutylene, ok ?? but it's very sticky and I don't want to waste a becker for that ! It will stick on it, I think it will be a piece of shit to "unstick" it from the recipient... After tomorrow I will make some experiment on it...

see ya !

I need to test the liquid latex too...

<small>[ April 29, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

Dissolve it in toluene or petrol. PIB will not dissolve in acetone.

[stanfield]

I just dissolved my mastic in some toluen then I added a few % of motor oil then I add corn floor :) I don't want to waste my PETN for the test ! And it works VERY VERY VERY well !!! The stuff is very modelable and don't sticks to the hands ! I don't know if it's really PIB but works pretty well ! (I haven't do ANY mesurement ! this will come later...)

thanx guy for the tips !

see ya !

EDIT : But I understood why the cops's dogs can detect Plastic explosive in terrorist bombing : the final product STINKS xylene&toluene !

<small>[ April 30, 2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

That's a good idea using corn flour! :)
You should leave the mix to cure for longer until you can't smell the solvent any more.

[stanfield]

Next time, I'll use white gasoline... Maybe it will stinks a bit less. Today, the stuff is modelable like yesterday, impresive ! I will wait a few day again to see if it harden, If no, I'll really plasticize my PETN.

But, when I dissolved it in my toluene, there wasn't a gram of calcium carbonate in it ! the PIB settle on the bottom but it loose it white color...

see ya !

[stanfield]

I have a friends, bonnsgeo, who said by adding Al powder to the PETN, it will increase the temperature of explosion, is it right ? what's the ratio ?

thanx

[Anthony]

It will increase the temperature of the explosion and give a longer heat pulse duration as the Al is throw into the surrounding environment where it combusts with atmospheric oxygen. I can't give you an exact ratio but I'm sure I used around 30%Al/70% PETN before, possibly even more Al.

I do believe that it decreases VoD though.

[mongo blongo]

Yes it will decreases the VOD. It really depends on what you want to do with it. It is useful in primary explosives though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Microtek]

Mongo Blongo: In what way is it effective in primaries ? Does it increase the initiating capability of weak primaries such as double salts, or does it increase the explosive power so you can use primaries by themselves ?

[mongo blongo]

Yes it will increase the initiating capability if primary explosives by increasing the heat of the explosion. I use it with Lead Azide at around 5%. I'm not sure if this is the optimized ratio but it kinda feels right if you know what I mean.
I assume it can be used with most primaries as long as they are compatable together.
The "explosive power" will be decreased slightly but not that much. The extra heat will add to the power by the hot gasses expanding a little faster. This however does not mean that the over all VOD will increase because the density of the primary has decreased.

[Mr Cool]

"ASA" is a primary mix that is used fairly commonly; it consists of lead azide, lead styphnate and aluminium, IIRC it's 80:15:5.

[Microtek]

I did a test with double salts which is a primary that I rather like.
It's easy to make with non-toxic materials, stores quite well, is easily ignited and is not very impact or friction sensitive. However, the initiating power is not so good. I have been unable to achieve reliable initiation of PETN or MHN in 2.2 mm coloumns if very lightly contained ( such as a thin drinking straw ).
I have tried mixing MHN with the double salts, but even though I achieved initiation some times, results were not reproduceable.
So, I did the following test in a 2.2 mm straw:
A base charge of compressed PETN 5 mm in height, a primary charge consisting of approximately 50 % double salts, 30 % MHN and 20 % Mg powder ( I don't know the size of the Mg grains, but it said " Magnesium powder, pyroforic " on the jar, and thermite mixtures with it can be lit with ordinary fuse ). The primary charge was 2 mm in height.
On top was pressed 0.5 mm straight double salts to ensure flame sensitivity. The device was placed on a lead bar and the point of contact between the different charges was marked.
Inspection after ignition indicated that the base charge had detonated.
More tests will have to be done of course.

[mongo blongo]

Thanx for that Mr Cool! Looks like I got the 5% Al right. :)
Microtek - Sounds good! I wonder if Mg would be better than Al.

[bonnsgeo]

heu ... i ave a little question about petn.
i made my petn with h2so4+kno3 method and when the petn is dry i put in some non pressed petn in a cup,i take a match with fire.but my petn dont really burn. just around the match... not all the petn.

why ??
must absolutely press the petn for it burns ??

thx
:confused:
sorry for my english.

[Mr Cool]

A better question, bonnsgeo, is why would you want to burn up a load of PETN?

Microtek: that's strange, I have also been using double salts/MHN primaries (pretty random in composition, it's normally somewhere around 30% D.S.), and I find that it sets off PETN easily. I have a pic of what 1g of the primary did to some 1.25ml Al sheet. Not the hardest of targets, but it messed it up pretty well. I might add it to my site some time soon, along with an update.
You must be using too much D.S., since MHN is very sensitive it is easily initiated by a small amount of D.S. going off if they are in physical contact, so 50% D.S. is not needed.

[bonnsgeo]

Mr cool.
it was just for a test.
i cant press my petn i have nothing for it actually.

give me an answer please.
ci@o
bonn's

[Microtek]

Mr Cool: I don't doubt that it's possible, but it is one of my requirements that it must work reliably with very small amounts; a typical load is 7.5 cubic millimeters of primary, which corresponds to about 0.01 - 0.02 grams. When the confinement of the charge is also very light ( such as a paper tube consisting of a single thickness of paper or a thin plastic drinking straw ), it takes quite an efficient primer.
Especially the DDT needs to be very fast, since the coloumn length of the primary is only 2 mm.
In the past I have used pressed HMTD with 0.25 mm DS on top to get it going, but I dislike using HMTD for safety reasons ( even in plastic straws ). By the way, those using HMTD may try this out:
Dissolve 1 g of wax in unleaded gasoline. Add 5 or 6 grams of HMTD to the solution and let the solvent evaporate with occational agitation.
The result is HMTD coated with wax which is a lot less sensitive than straight HMTD. So much so that I had trouble initiating it with the above method.

[mongo blongo]

Bonnsgeo- PETN is not a primary explosive.

[stanfield]

I think, effectively, that you need a primary to "ignite" it...
I personally use DDNP and it works very well, my caps are very powerful ! AP should work too.

see ya !

[bonnsgeo]

yes , mongo.

sorry but before i just made AP and when you put your ap and you put it ablaze with a match ...all the Ap vanish ! like nitrocellulose !!

that's why i believed that petn would react by the exact same way.

now i'm sure i have made petn ! thx :) !!

bye
stanfield: pour le polyisobutylene tiens moi au courant !
ci@o

[bonnsgeo]

hi !
i just want to say that its easy to obtain a good yield with h2so4 + kno3 method.
you never obtain something a paste by adding more acid sulphuric: the solution stay liquid.

i used 10 g of pe ...and i obtain (after recristalisation in acetone !) 20g of petn (yield = 86 % )

ci@o

[10fingers]

Stanfield, have you tried your plastique yet?

[stanfield]

plastic, not yet.
crude PETN, yes in blasting cap.

I haven't tried the plastic yet because I found a hardware shop near me who sells pure polyisobutylene, so I want to try this one to see if it's the same product as my "butyl rubber caulk".

I maybe have to buy some ethyl hexyl sebacate, no ?

see ya !

EDIT : I also have to pass an exam, so my time for explosives is reduced to minimum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

<small>[ May 08, 2002, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[stanfield]

In the KIPE (II ?), the is a chapter about Detaflex equivalent explosive which uses ethyl hexyl ADIPATE instead of ethyl hexyl SEBACATE (usually for C-4). I made some calculation and I found that this Detaflex only uses 8,5% of plasticizer instead of 9,8% for C-4.
What's the influence of ethyl hexyl sebacate or adipate on the final product ? I can get ethyl hexyl ADIPATE and it's really cheaper than its sebacate cousin... That's the reason of my question

thanx

<small>[ May 12, 2002, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[cutefix]

Ethyl hexyl sebacate and ethyl hexyl adipate can be used interchangeably in plastic explosive manufacture.Its purpose is to make the explosive pliable and plastic .It will also prevent the plastique from turning brittle on storage even if exposed to variation of temperature.That is why it is called a plasticizer and Polyisobutylene is the binder.

[stanfield]

ok, thanx !
- What's the difference between military Detaflex & C-4 ?
- Do you think I could put a bit of colorant in my plastic without descreasing the VoD ? (to make it more funny...)

see ya !

[Mr Cool]

Detaflex is PETN based, isn't it? Whereas C4 is RDX based. I think that will be the most significant difference.

[cutefix]

Military type sheet explosives contain lower quantities of explosive,either PETN or RDX if compared with ordinary C-4.However in US military,many sheet explosives are RDX based(maybe because of lesser sensitivity as compared to PETN-so more robust for field use). However In Europe they are using PETN(because of less toxicity as compared to RDX) in sheet explosives even for military use.
The explosive content averages at 70% the remainder is binder.The binders used previously were butyl rubber or polyisobutylene.There are other binders used also.There are sheet explosives in which the composition is Explosive/binder=85/15,and this formulation were designed for civilian use.
Now the coloring composition is typically 1 part lampblack and 8 parts chrome yellow.This mixed colorant is added at an average of 0.5%.This will produce an olive drab”military look” on the sheet explosive.