underground bunker

[Ctrl_C]

I have what could double as an underground bunker. back in the early 1900's the house that was on this property received water from an underground reinforced concrete reserivoir filled by a well using a windmill to pump the water up. When electricity made it back this way, the windmill was abandoned and an electric motor was installed.

The important thing is the concrete reservoir. It is about 20x15x15. The well right next to it is non operational but still has water...I dropped a rock and heard it splash. It must be 2-300 feet deep. If one were to go in and clean out the bricks and braches and stuff that have fallen in over the past 75 years and suck out the couple inches of water down there, it could make a reasonably good bunker.

I think the walls may have to be reinforced but all this would take is a concrete drill and some basement wall anchors. I think the concrete is held together resonably well but I would put up some length of chain link fence anchored to the walls and plywood on top of that.

A generator with intake/exhaust pipes to the surface could be placed inside to run a well pump, lights, etc.

I can't quite seem to justify doing this though. Sure a bunker would be nice if the world went to hell all of the sudden, but there is no immediate use for it. So...should I build it "just in case"? You have to admit it would be pretty awesome to own a fully operational self-sustaining underground bunker.

[kingspaz]

go for it!
even if you never used it. it would be very interesting to attempt and strengthen. it may be make a cool lab if its got electricity in there. get some lights up, a work bench, etc. but it would be worth doing just so you can say you have a bunker afterwards. also the guy in the UK who owns the old bunker for the government from the 70's sold places for £30 000 a person after september 11th. next time theres another terrorist attack, or china is flexing its muscles you could cash in if you put another couple of beds in there! :D

[xoo1246]

Oh yes, we antisocial creatures like to hide in caves. No really, it's cool, you could set up a underground labb or something like that.
If you have a camera, take some pictures of it.

[Energy84]

First thing I thought of when you mentioned "underground bunker" was of a drug bust that happened near my place last fall.
Some guys had 7 railway cars buried side by side and were growing marijuana down there for about 5 years. They were completely self sustained. They had running water, a toilet, kitchen and even cable TV!. The electricity was provided by two diesel generators (one was just for backup). I know that some guy was hired to tend to the needs of the plants and he stayed down there for 5 months straight!
I'd love to have my own bunker, but I'd probably use it to grow weed and make $$$ off of lesser scum :D

[Ctrl_C]

i did some actual measurements and went down it it a few hours ago. its about 16 feet deep, and 10x10. much smaller than I first estimated but big enough. The concrete is in remarkable shape. not even cracking...the skim coat is still intact. I take back my statement about needing wall anchors. Here's a rough diagram of what it's like.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> |&lt;2ft&gt; |
------------| |---------
| |
__________| |_________
| |
| |
| |
|&lt;----------10ft----------&gt;|
| |
| ^ |
| | 16ft |
| |
|__________________________|</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I am going to clear a path, then take the oxyacetylene torch up there and cut off the piston head to the well and cut up the windmill tower that is still up there. Next step will be clearing out about 50 bricks, some trash, and some sticks and branches from the bottom. Then, if the shopvac will fit through the top, I will take it down and suck out the 2" of water and 1" of dirt and muck.

[Anthony]

I'd definitely do it, it'd be a great self sufficiency project. With a generator and/or battery bank + inverter you could have power no matter what was going on in the world outside. Or go solar/wind power if you're so inclined.

It could also make a great lab, if something were to go badly wrong, no one would probably realise it, except for feeling a "tremor".

It'd also be a cool place to hang out, no one is going to bother you down there. You could have a (cramped) drunken party and play music at ear bleeding levels at till the morning without neighbours complaining.

Personally, I'd equip the place with electricity, sort out a water tank for running water. Get a TV/fridge/stove/computer/sofabed down there and go live in it:)

[Ctrl_C]

Live in a 10x10 box? Kaczynski (sp?) did that only his wasn't underground. I dont know what I will do with it yet. And I can play music at ear bleeding levels at 3:00am anyway...my nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away.

I do like the idea of burying cargo boxes underground all welded together and everything. Maybe one day...

[mark]

You could have your own private bat cave...Do you have a butler?

[Anthony]

Point retracted, my neighbours are 1/2ft away...

But definitely forget all other suggestions made, it *has* to be a bat cave!

[mrloud]

I was about to suggest that before you go down there, make sure the air is breathable down there. The number of people who climb into a confined space and drop dead because there is not enough oxygen each year is staggering. If you're going to be conducting experiments down there you'll need to put some thought into how you are going to stop it from filling up with flammable or poisonous gas.

It would be cool to use it as a secure server room for the FTP site. Run some cat5 out there with the power. You might even want to use it as a chemical store. It sounds like the ideal place to keep anything you would want to self destruct in the event of a raid by the cops. A couple of oxygen cylinders, a hundred litres of petrol and some strategically placed thermite and things could get nice and toasty down there.

[EP]

Using it as a contained lab sounds like the best idea to me, especially with any accidents or evidence disposal (destroying lab in emergency) not risking a house or something.

[Ctrl_C]

i just went down there for an hour and cleaned some shit up. its very wet, dark, dirty, damp, etc...not unlike working in a sewer i'm sure. theres all kinds of broken glass and nasty stuff down there too. i pulled out most of the bricks which was a pain in the ass because I could only lift 5 or so in a 5 gallon bucket at one time. next is some pretty large branches then i'll take a coal shovel down and get most of the muck out.

does anybody have any suggestions on how to suck all that water out of there? the shop vac won't fit and I don't think it pulls a high enough vacuum to suck it up 16 feet. the water isn't deep enough for any kind of submersible pump, it needs to be sucked.

also I was thinking about what kind of "umbilical" I will need going down there. I'm thinking water, power, phone, 2 way ventilation (dryer vent tubing or pvc?), intake/exhaust ventilation for possible future generator...what else? A drain for taking a leak might be possible because there is a pipe at the bottom that used to supply the house from the reservoir.

[mrloud]

Is it 16ft from the floor to the ceiling or the surface? If the room itself is 16 ft high (just over 5m) you could almost build a decking half way up and make it a two storey bunker. At the very least you'll need to build a false floor a foot or so up off the ground with a bilge pump at the lowest point.

How far between the ceiling of the bunker and the surface?

How strong is it? Would you want to drive a car over the top?

You could build a shed or small cabin over the entrance. Anyone watching would only see you go into a shed, not down underground.

[Ctrl_C]

its 16 feet from floor to surface. the ceiling is probably 2-3 feet from the surface. I would guess it is pretty strong...it is reinforced. I would drive a car over it.

[PYRO500]

I had the idea of digging a long trench and building a wooden frame I once tried to dig a small tunnel, but the soil around here isn't stable so my initial hole caved in stopping that idea, I figured if I really wanted a bunker I would need a backhoe and work quickly, something I did not have the money to do. The dimensions of that are almost the size of my septic tank, I would not recomend a chem lab down there as the fumes would fog the area and with a damp area with water vapor in the air would make the fumes hang like a fog in the place choking you, a rain cover is a must along with a ventilator fan/shaft. As for the well is it a currently used well? if not you could drop large IED's in there or toxic chems/biproducts nuclear waste etc. :) just stay away from the edge, one slip will be your last.

[BoB-]

Dude, an air pump is crucial, if the oxygen level gets a little too low/high, you can adjust it with the flick of a switch. You could also have a second one as a backup, but airpumps are already expensive.

A carbon monoxide detector is also important.

How the hell did the people who buried these train cars not get caught? thats a lot of earth to move.

[nbk2000]

I wouldn't want to be working in a concrete bunker with explosives. Any accidental explosion will be greatly magnified by the confinement. What would have been survivable becomes sure death. Plus the lack of oxygen and the fumes, fire, etc. :(

But it would make a really great place to explode your stuff without worries. No smoke, noise, flash to give you away. And since it's completely enclosed, you could do weapons tests and retrieve the fragments with no problems.

[Ctrl_C]

I finished cleaning it. I couldn't believe that shop-vac could pull water 16 feet but it did. I also dislike the idea of a lab down there. I've detonated things down there before and the echo amplifies the sound tenfold. I would almost certainly go deaf, if not die if an accident happened. Here's some pics.

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" target="_blank">Surface 1</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface1.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_surface2.jpg" target="_blank">Surface 2</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_houserelation.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_houserelation.jpg" target="_blank">Proximity to House</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside1.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside1.jpg" target="_blank">Inside 1</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside2.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_inside2.jpg" target="_blank">Inside 2</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingup.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingup.jpg" target="_blank">Inside Looking Up</a>

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingout.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/bunker_insidelookingout.jpg" target="_blank">Inside Looking Out</a>

On the subject of a battery bank, my dad's truck has 2 1000ah batteries. How many amps could they really put out for an hour without overheating? How many would I need to put out say, 3500watts?

[kingspaz]

wow! that is in good condition!
i think the idea of an underground test site is good. you could set off some big charges down there.

[xoo1246]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">On the subject of a battery bank, my dad's truck has 2 1000ah batteries. How many amps could they really put out for an hour without overheating? How many would I need to put out say, 3500watts?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That depends on their inner resistance and the voltage.
It's a nice little hole you got there. You could hide their when nukes start falling from the sky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ March 29, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Mick]

that is so cool, i would love to have something like that.

well, i do have something like that sort of. i found a mine shaft of sorts near a bridge once, i think it was an old sandstone mine for the bridge, and it was really fucken deep - i dropped a big rock in it and it took about 7-8 seconds to hit water at the bottom.
i took my absailing gear back to it a few weeks later, but i could never find the bloody thing again, and i've been there several times after that and i still can't find it.

and to my knowledge noone knows about it, i asked the council and a few other conservation groups in that area but niether of them knew about it. and i asked a few old people from the area that seemed to know everything else about the town but they knew nothing about it either - one of them thought that the sandstone for the bridge was carted from a near by town, so that adds question to whether its a mine or not.

anyways, have fun with your hole.
you could always get a whole bunch of worms and put them in there, then use the hole for a dead body pit.

[Anthony]

Jeez, what does your dad use those batts for? They must weigh about half a tonne together...

I'd say you could pull 3.5Kw from them absolutely no problem.

Capacity, assumbing they are brand new, it would depend what length of time the discharge was carried out over to determine their rated capacity. Many lead/acid batteries batteries use a 20hour rate, so for a 1000ah battery, it could give 50A continuously for 20hrs. However, the shorter the time period over which the battery is discharged, the less efficient it is. I'd guess that discharging over a period of 1hr might give you 80% of rated capacity, but it's just a guesstimate.

The age/condition of the batteries also has a big effect on the true capacity they will have.

[NoltaiR]

Hmmm.. what I would do with a underground testing site like that?
Probably make a fairly large claymore mine and set it just about anywhere... then have little homemade dummies/manakins standing around in there randomly. Then have a small video camera with livefeed (so you can see what is happening as it happens, and if somethings went wrong with the camera on the inside, you would still have it recorded on the client (whatever device you would use to monitor the explosion). Then detonate it and record the effects. Then replay in slow motion and watch how the nails and BBs bounce off the walls and tear the dummies to pieces.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Energy84]

I somehow don't think that would work Noltair. You'd need lighting which wouldn't break right away and a highspeed camera for that, hence $$$ and lots of it :(
Cool hole, I probably wouldn't use it for blast testing though. That'd obviously ruin it. What'd I'd try doing instead is looking around to see if it'd be possible to blast a small hole in the side of it, then digging it out, giving you an even bigger area/second room. You could use this second room as a sort of reservoir with all your pumps and generators in it to save space in your primary room.
Bob- those railcars must have been there for 30+ years because there were trees on top that were up to 5" in diameter. I'll try to find some old newspaper clippings showing the entrance. It really was an awesome place and I hope they don't fill it in :mad: The pigs were talking about doing that...

[RTC]

Aherm.. how much is a rail car old chap? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Got me a few idea's.

[YTS]

I think every man would like a underground bunker every bloke i no does ive dreamt about building one many a time . I could think of many uses main one to get a way from the missis

[mark]

quote
you could always get a whole bunch of worms and put them in there, then use the hole for a dead body pit.

Just when I was beginig to not be scared of you guys......

[shooter3]

That's really interesting. I'm from Rhode Island and have seen lots of those around. I know of three in Bristol. One was 15 feet in diameter and 15 feet deep, but it was a cylinder. The second was mostly filled in, but was about 10 feet wide(also a cylinder. The third was the most interesting. I was remodeling a bathroom in an old house and found it under the floor. It had been covered for at least 90 years. It was about 8 feet in diameter and about 20 feet deep. Shaped just like a thermos bottle. The access was a 2 foot hole. What could you use that for? An indoor test chamber? The wall was as smooth as a trowled floor. The owner wanted to fill it in, but I talked him out of it. Maybe it could be turned into a 2 story bomb shelter/storage cave. (sorry I'm getting parranoid again).

[RTC]

I'd for sure, either by hammer&chisle, explosives, jackhammer, take out a lower section of the wall, take it down about 20feet, using the spoil to built up a mud wall, around the entrance with sandbags or something.

Then get a few friends round with some shovel's, and start digging, dig the room out to around 30x40 feet (wouldn't take a montivated person that long) then get some wooden crates, stack them against the walls, then put nail some fiber board over the pallets and fill with concreate, the take off fiber board after it's dryed, and put another skim on it.

do same again with ceiling, propping it up with some scaffold if you can get it.

Once dry, yet again, put another skim over it, if you were thinking about expansion, you would have left a 6x2foot gap for a doorway, and taken it down yet another 20foot before making yet another room.

Given time, you could virtually build your own underground city.

Would be a nice retreat for those would be killers on the run, paying you a nice sum for somewhere to hide till there "heat" is off.

Selection for this would however be of the most upright select people. For example, people with a good reputation, after all you don't want to be taking in any old riff raff just as they have the money, they could be bacon!

Got to remember your RTPB here! You could even use it as a "underground training station" teaching things from weapons handeling, escape and evasion, hand to hand combat, explosives and demolitions, special weapons and tatics, survival tactics.

Of course you'd need to be pretty well funded if you want to set this up in the course of a few years, however if your in no rush and want it as some kind of "project" you could take as long as you wish, using second hand power supply's, free if you can beg/steal/borrow them.

[NoltaiR]

Yeah I was just kidding about the claymore idea (although it would be interesting if it could work)..hehe

Anyways it would certainly make headlines if one day a small, highly trained group of soldiers who were trained privately in an old, abandoned well..

[RTC]

".. And on tonights news at 10, a highly trained terrorist group, who are causing havok to anyone with authority, using highly advanced improvised weapons, spraypainting NBK LIVES! where ever they go.."

oh if only.. We all know who our leader would be!

[Energy84]

:cool: I think I know where I could get you an old boxcar for around a grand or so... That'd work out to around $680USD
I don't know how you'd move the damn thing though since it isn't on rails anymore and it's sitting in a scrapyard.

[Anthony]

Depends how long they are, if it isn't much over 40ft then a truck with an open bed trailer might work. There must be a way otherwise they wouldn't have gotten to the scrapyard in the first place (unless it has a rail link).

[Ctrl_C]

Excavating in bigger would be possible, but very dangerous, very hard to be covert, and too much work for me.

The batteries I mentioned are actually 750 cold cranking amps, much less than I anticipated. Cold cranking amps is maximum amperage over a very short time no? I will look up some more specifics on the model in a little bit and post them here.

Heres a pic of the truck (and my spudgun) these things go in, now you know why they are so huge...that truck is 7.3L.

<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" alt="" />
<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/spudgun.jpg" target="_blank">Truck</a>

[Anthony]

"The cold cranking ampere (CCA) rating refers to the number of amperes a battery can support for 30 seconds at a temperature of 0°F until the battery voltage drops to 1.20 volts per cell, or 7.20 volts for a 12V battery."

7.3L - meaty:)

[PYRO500]

I would not recomend any blasting in your underground room it is unneccisary to remove the concrete from the wall and could cause damage to the structureof the existing tank, using explosives on an old concrete structure may cause cracking or internal weakening or tiny stress fractures that could cause it to collapse anywhere from immediately to years from then, you didn't post how thick the walls are so we can't estimate the amount of weight that wall is supporting, I think that the structure is way too shallow to dig a tunnel, I recall that 3 feet was usually the minimum to avoid loose top soil from caving in. It would be possible to dig out a trench along the side and carefully knock out a segment of the wall removing the concrete you did npt need, then you could make walls and floor out of cement blocks or something and add a strong cieling then rebury the trench with the tunnel/extra room attached to the side. that is the safest way to do it blasting in this 100 year old box is not a good idea, if you must do it at least cover the wall with sandbags or something to ensure the blast goes in one direction and don't drill blasting holes, this may seem like a good idea but it will cause shock to the cieling all along that wall and besides you will need a fairly large (well more than is considered safe) amount of a good brissant explosive that may have to sit in the wall for quite a while till you get the sandbags in.

[Ctrl_C]

I have made my decision and will not use it for a lab or blasting tank for a couple reasons. A lab down there would be dangerous. As nbk said, something that could be survivable elsewhere, would be fatal down there. I also don't want to use it as a blast tank for a few reasons. Yes, it probably would destroy it over time. Also, I live in the middle of like 300 acres with only 2 houses within earshot, I can blow up truck bombs and nobody would know.

I am, however, going to put in ventilation, electricity, possibly a battery bank, several hundred gallons of fresh water, a cot, some elevated flooring, maybe some drywall or plywood on the walls and ceiling, a new permanent aluminum ladder, some sort of door and/or covering over the entrance, etc, etc...

I think the first step is going to be putting in 2x4 framing on the inside to screw plywood onto, and the floor would go in at the same time.

[nbk2000]

Now that I've FINALLY been able to see the pictures, I'd suggest getting rid of the above ground portion of the entrance and camofluaging it somehow. Perhaps a big, fake, styrofoam rock? Otherwise, it's an invitation to anyone who sees it to look in it.

You could explode small, grenade sized, charges in it with no damage. Just suspend them or set on a sand bag.

Another use, though perhaps not your style, would be as a slave pit. This thing just screams "Slave Pit" to me. Keep your captive cuties in a deep underground pit with no way out. Just like the movies "Kiss the Girls" and "Silence of the Lambs". :p

Glad to hear you're not going to use it as a lab. Between a fire, injuries, and having to climb out, you wouldn't stand a chance in hell of escaping alive.

[Mick]

i was going to say the same thing NBK (silence of the lambs)

however, i figured it would sound a touch wierd.

mmmm slave pit :D

also, ctrl_c it would be a good idea to drill either the ceiling or the walls(or both) to see how thick they are.
because the well has been closed up so long i would imagine that the concrete would have absorbed alot of moisture, and now that its open it will dry out.

if theres any chance of it cracking and failing apart it will happen when the walls dry out.

<small>[ April 02, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]</small>

[Jack Ruby]

*Sigh*

Nothing gets me hotter than know that my sex slaves are kept secure in a dank pit. They are living in their own filth.

The last think I would want to find out is that Leperacy is a STD :( .

It would deffinitely be important to conceal it. And keep in mind that a flashbang/frag grenade would be very easy ways of killing the occupant of that Dank Pit.

Also history show us that the DEA, FBI, and other 3 letter Goverment agencies aren't above and beyond burning you alive and making sure you can't escape.

*Cough*Branch*Cough*Davidians*Cough*

[nbk2000]

Hey, they get a bucket. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

It'd be a great place for storing all your chemicals and other goodies. No need to worry about that 5 kilo jug of unstable AP exploding in the house. :D

Any leaks, explodes, or burns, it does it in an underground concrete room hundreds of feet from your home. Very safe.

With a decent ventilation system, it'd be a great gas chamber for experiments with CW agents. Lower the animals into the pit in a cage, introduce the agent, wait till they're dead, then vent.

YOU definately don't want to be in there if/when the JBTs come knocking on your door. Death trap.

[the flash]

Some of the descriptions of the 'underground rooms' that were cylinders 15 feet deep and more sound like indoor wells. I think they were common before municipal water systems.

[Zajcek]

We had a wooden house built in bushes about 100 meters away from police station and they didn't have a clue that the thing existed. :)

My friends grew weed inside it. We used a huge locomotive lead+acid battery for our power supply we "borrowed" at the train station. It weighted at least 100 kg and lasted for almost a month. Then we had to "borrow" a new one.

We were using that place when the weather was bad. For smoking weed and for drinking.

Unfortunately it was found by a fire brigade when they were cutting down all the trees and bushes in that area to start building a new gas station. And piggies were surprised they didn't knew about it. It was like in front of their noses :D They even found that locomotive batteries they were looking for.

I say GO FOR IT! Install an air supply fan, so it will get all the exhaled CO2 out of that bunker. It could be used to help you get rid of some other nasty fumes if you will have a lab down there.

It is nice to have a shelter you can go to when you are in a bad mood or you are in trouble and don't want anyone to find you. Just be careful if you will do experiments down there. It is a death trap if it is filled win NOx gasses or CO2 ( guess what can you use it for )

[Jacks Complete]

(This is a old, old thread!)

I've got to say the idea of a vertical shaft like that really doesn't do it for me. As has been pointed out about ten times, it's a death trap. You couldn't really even keep slaves in there, as without a ventilator they are going to die from CO2 poisoning!

I'd go with digging a shaft down at a good angle for walking or clambering down, then use a jackhammer to get through the wall. Then simply concrete over it again, so you have a nice smooth transition from the old part to the new part.

I'd also go for a design that has a sand covered floor and a grenade sump, if you were entertaining the idea of a chemical or bomb testing area. Both would probably save your life a few times before you stopped using it.

Thinking about the best way to go about building a small bunker, I think the best way would be to find a small cleared area on a hillside or slope, and dig a trench to the size of the area you want for your starter. Build a sort of bunded area from brick, to produce a level area on top. Now, mark out a wall inside this, bounded by one wall on the hill side. Cover the top of this with slabs, and ensure it is very, very solid. To allow expansion into the hill, leave a hole in the hillside wall, and use a lintel or even two for support. Get some rebar, chop out your hole for where the door will be and drop it over the top, then fill it with cement, and then build a shed on top of it.

After the concrete has set and the shed built, cut a hole through the base of the shed, and you will then be able to cut away the concrete, allowing access to your new bunker, underneath. If you are prepared to hire the mixer and fill it yourself, you could easily use a box section to install a manhole cover or the like, rather than having to allay suspicion by having the hole filled like normal.

The joy of this design is that you can make those side walls as thick as you like, and then tunnel into the hill via the wall you left the tunnel to.

Crap description, but you probably got the idea already. Instead of having a big concrete bunker entrance on the side of a hill, you have a big concrete slab with a shed on top on the side of a hill.

[209]

Hold on......

I have been intrested in making a bunker for some time myself. The only area I would be able to build it in would be in a heavily wooded forest were all the tools and materials would have to be hauled in by hand. The soil is damp, soft and full of roots. To top it all off, the ground isn't very level.

Lost cause?

I think you did a square pit as deep as you want. Use cement blocks and cement to build the walls and floor. Then what about a roof? It would have to be cement as well, but how? I guess you build the roof and then cover it with a few feet of dirt and replace all the growth and fallen trees, perfect camo :). Then you build build a wooden floor on wooden stilts above the cement floor, all the water goes into this "bilge" and can be pumped out as needed. Then the access can be made from the side, not the top, a short flight of stairs rather than a ladder. How do you put on a roof?

[festergrump]

Hold on?! LOL! I think they've BEEN holding on for 364 days, my friend! ;) :p


The very first thing to have a peek at when considering what location you're going to dig at is your water table. Just how deep can you dig before you start filling in again with mud and muck? Granted, it's still possible to build something useful below this level, but you just got really expensive and will need alot of help, professional advice, and possibly machinery. Very bad for a 'secret' spot.

Depending on the size of the roof you are talking about, though, there are many different ways of doing it.

Concrete would probably be best poured into a mould with rebar running through it as a grid, then craned into place.

I'd probably go with a corrugated plastic roof (for sheer strength) buried by earth and camoflaged if in any way possible. It just seems easier and more feasible to do properly and keep sealed. The installation could probably be managed by one man, which is all the better.

Better still, how about renting a Bobcat and burying one (or more, for length) of these (http://www.ghaustralia.com/index.html) into the side of a hill? You'd want to reinforce the insides on all six sides first, obviously, but it'd make one hell of a nice "man-cave" or even fallout shelter. Too bad they don't mention the price anywhere in their site...

[209]

Has anyone ever contemplated a bunker underneath their house? Would that be awesome or what? 3 story house, cement foundation then a concealed trap door at the back of a closet or something that leads down a steep flight of stairs or a ladder going to down under the house and into an elaborate (deep) underground bunker.

So the first hall can be as long as required, then it opens into the main bunker, lookers, equipment, whatever and maybe a bunk. then the next hall (diagonal) runs as far as you need it to for the escape or other secret entrance. In this case, then escape route would lead underground into the thick woods behind my house:) . Maybe the halls are closed off by steel doors and the escape route could open into a hollowed out dead tree or something like that:D . This would be the ultimate bunker for hiding things, escaping, or waiting it out when the cops come or hitmen show up. :D

Possible? No doubt incredibly expensive and difficult, but if you could round up the cash......

[Alexires]

209 - I think you may be underestimating how heavy a foot (30cm) of dirt actually would be if it covered 5-10 m2 (10m x 10m). I've heard of people burying shipping containers (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thecontainerman.com/images/standard_large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thecontainerman.com/sales.htm&h=475&w=640&sz=82&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=92yj-jA7BFxj8M:&tbnh=102&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshipping%2Bcontainer%26gbv%3D2%26svnu m%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG) to grow weed in, but the roof collapsed...

You would need to shore the roof or reinforce it somehow. Personally, I would go with digging a fairly big hole (enough to accommodate 2 shipping containers, either 20 or 40 feet) laying a slab of concrete with re-bar (waterproofed with some chemical as well with a few layers of builders plastic underneath).

When this has dried, get the two containers put into the hole on top of the concrete. You would either have to hire a crane, or go work for a crane company to get your license, and hire it. Otherwise, you might be in some trouble.

Next would be shoring the sides of the dirt up with with wood, and then using plastic as a barrier to moisture again. You probably would need to make sure the insides of the containers can handle the stress of concrete pressing on it, or otherwise use brick. Before you do this though, make sure that you somehow link the two containers together so you can get into both.

After that, run a few pieces of wood other the top of the containers (leaving a hole big enough to run a ladder down so you can get in later). You would need to have these planks on their edges as opposed to flat, if you get my meaning. Then place some more wood, flat this time, over the top, plastic and concrete it all in, hoping it doesn't collapse and apply some dirt as cameo. After this, if you are feeling fairly happy with it all, get some drain pipe (PVC), dig a fairly deep ditch or two, and run that to the containers so that you can vent CO2 and have an intake of oxygen. Put a hydroponics fan in there, or some kind of fan to force air in.

Shipping containers are only structurally sound on the corners; the walls/roof/floor will NOT support weigh, so you will need to factor this in.

Of course, that is just off the top of my head. You would need to talk to someone that has an idea about these things, or otherwise have a lot of money to burn, and if you do, you might as well have it built for you.

Personally, I think that shipping containers are a good way to go. They are fairly cheap, available, and people wont tend to ask too many questions. You can hire them or buy them outright (obviously you are going to do the latter).
Some concrete, wood, plastic and FORETHOUGHT and you would have a fairly decent hide away.

[Match]

I was thinking about 'acquiring' a mini dig (http://www.andover-groundworks.co.uk/images/minidig.gif) and then start digging a hole underneath camouflage netting. Once the hole was large enough, the top would be covered while digging would be maintained underneath. Dirt would be fed into the back of a truck via conveyor and dumped in a suitable location every morning. Fresh air supply and muffling as well as power generation would be things to consider.

Work would be performed during the day to help prevent the project being discovered by an IR equipped whirly bird.

If one were to own an official looking picker truck, wood could be acquired by collecting pallets which are usually easily obtained around various shipping and receiving warehouses. Large boulders could be also collected from surrounding townships. Large boulders could be crushed ( or exploded)to yield smaller fragments to be used in construction. In un-crushed form, they are suitable road blocks for preventing vehicles from parking on your 'house'

The relatively small pieces of wood could be glued and fastened together into giant I -beams capable of supporting huge amounts of weight. Cement and glue would be the most expensive items to acquire. Fuel would be a considerable expense as well.

[Alexires]

Match - A worthy idea apart from a few problems.

What did you plan to cover it with? You could always go the old planks with some supports every metre of two to support the weight, then pile dirt on it. Of course, if the beams rotted......

If you are going to be using a generator to get power that is going to be a massive beacon for IR. Either don't use it, or pump the exhaust somewhere where it won't be noticed.

I suppose the two main reasons that anyone would want for one of these hidey-holes are these -

a) Escaping pursuit
b) living when shit hits the fan (but no direct pursuit)

If you are going to live in it, it will be very different from a place that you can run to if you need to get away. If it is just a temporary place for if you are being pursued, you just need a hole in the ground that you are going to use for less than a month. After a month, you will need something better.

I say a month, because you will start having problems with food, hygiene and water at about that time. Ideally, your hidey-hole would be in the middle of a forest, away from stuff, where there is plenty of wild food and game for you to eat. Have some freeze dried stuff buried nearby (military MRE -Meals Ready to Eat). You will want to build near running water, and probably have your toilet DOWNSTREAM from the running water. You do not want to contaminate your water supply. In an ideal situation like that, I'd say 6-months to indefinitely, depending on how you worked it.

If it is for when the shit hits the fan, but you don't have anyone that is out for your ass, then it will be built differently than if you just need to hide.

For some kind of economic/SHTF/dictatorship, you will need a place with power, food, water, toilet, that is all ready for you to run to and just start again. Here, you might want to have a look at NBK's file on defensive architecture for building your little home away from home. Obviously some of it is going to be inappropriate, but most of it can apply to any kind of home, above or below ground.

Plenty of survival guides have been written with regards to things like this.

Edit: Another idea is rainwater tanks. You can by room size plastic ones that, while they wouldn't be incredibly strong, are relatively light (compared to shipping containers) and are fairly cheap and definitely "OTC" (if such a word can apply to something that big). You could buy 3 or 4, bury them next to one another and link them up, leaving one attached to a small shack (obviously run down and disused) to collect rainwater.

The shack acts as an entrance, or as a decoy, depending on how you feel. A little thought and engineering, and I'm sure you could make it so that they won't collapse. This would give you water, waterproof rooms and the plastic would act as an insulator (compared to metal).

Just fresh air (perhaps cultivate some medicinal herbs) would be needed, and food, which can be found if necessary.

[ChippedHammer]

I just had a idea, dig a hole slightly larger than a large rainwater tank, place the tank in the hole and fill around the tank with concrete with some rebar for good measure. A large 40,000L tank is cheaper than a shipping container and i imagine it would be stronger with a thick concrete outer shell. Then again you could always get a underground tank and skip the concrete.

Where im at no one would blink a eye and i think the government gives a nice rebte and chuck in a nice pump :)

[nbk2000]

While building an Uber-bunker sounds cool, that forces you to remain close to it, as all your supplies and equipment are there.

If the enemy discovers your location and you manage to flee again, you're not S.O.L., as you had to leave everything behind.

Better would be to remain highly mobile by having many small stashes and hidey-holes scattered over the area, so you never have to stay in one spot too long, or lose much if you have to flee. :)

Also, this means you don't have to physically carry a lot of stuff when you leave your current lair, as you can pick up more supplies as you go from your other lairs. ;)

Oh, and rather than room-sized, keep 'em small...about the size of a drain culvert. Just big enough to crawl into and turn around, with maybe a small cube at the far end to sit up in and store stuff.

You'd want to have them well-sealed so they stay uninhabited by animals and bugs. Last thing you'd want to have to do after running for your life is to fight a skunk for ownership of your lair. :p

[festergrump]

I might be nuts (it's been mentioned), but I think there's a very strong possibilty that both types of man-caves would be in order, anymore. These are some scary times we're living in. :(

There's alot of speculation these days about Bush and company "allowing" a briefcase nuke to be detonated somewhere in the USA to scare the sheeple into demanding that they take all the rest of our rights away and declare martial law. (Nothing Bush does surprises me anymore :rolleyes:).

In that case, I'd want something a little roomier to live in until the fallout reaches reasonable levels before venturing out again. The deeper the better, too, in that instance.

The hidey holes and cache-containers you're talking about would come in very handy after that, NBK, as you'd constantly want to avoid confrontations with the internment camp henchmen that'd be out jackbooting in doors for weapon confiscation and arresting civilians for curfew violations. Those types of hideys would be needed everywhere you intend to operate once our smirking president finally declares himself King and abolishes all civil liberties.

My main concern wouldn't be the "hows" or "wheres" of digging the larger unit, though, but rather the venting and air filtration. Nothing would suck worse than to suffocate in your own hideout after going through all the trouble to build the damn thing. :eek:

I love the idea of being able to travel light, however, and just grab more stash on the run. :cool: I don't think I could handle even a 40 lb. pack for too very long, anymore... Only problem I can foresee with going the multiple cache route is the increased expense of equipment and goods to actually cache. I'm already poor enough! :o I'd probably have to resort to sniping stragglers and stocking my hideys with THEIR shit. (*DING* Now there's an idea :D).

[ChippedHammer]

I was thinking more along the lines of a storage facility, would be nice to have all gear gear stored away from the home in bunker thats kept cool all year round. If something goes wrong all your hear is a thud' in the night :)

[FireBomb]

Well I for one have been thinking on this subject extensively here for the last several days and have come to the conclusion and realization that no one has suggested yet.

My biggest concern with building a bunker/lair under ground is that if you want any type of quality you need to use concrete.

Here in lies the problem if your only one person or maybe a small handful of trusted friends, once a site has been chosen getting the required materials there causes a problem..(example several hundred if not thousands of cubic feet of concrete.)

This can be solved by using bags of suitable concrete which weigh around 80lbs but you still have the problem of once you get all the required materials there, once you start pouring the concrete you have to do it fairly quickly or you will have problems with it curing unevenly leading to even more problems.

While you can use a small portable concrete mixer it still limits the amount you can pour at a time.

You also have to supply power and don't forget water, now while this would work in some cases what about cases of you building your bunker/lair in a remote location where easy access is not an option.

Now what I propose is that someone interested in a project like this why not use prefabricated molds that are measured, and build interlocking blocks to build a large arched underground bunker/lair.

Heck civilizations have been building structures like this for centuries. Some have the ability to support thousands if not hundreds of thousands of pounds of weight.

This would not be too much of a project as it would only require basic geometry to map out the size and shape of the blocks needed.

Also it could easily be done in secret on site with just a few molds and a couple bags of concrete and some water all brought to the site via truck or even ATV in several loads.

It could even be more simplified by using a wheelbarrow instead of a mixer. All you need then is a couple of gallons of water and a hoe to mix it up with.

Construction blocks once cured could be lifted into place and cemented in by even one person if the weight was kept low enough (example under 100lbs) and held in place with a simple wooded scaffolding. Using a hoist or pulley system to lift them.

The only draw back of this project is it would be very very time consuming.

If at anytime you decide that you would like to expand you could simply remove a few selected blocks the rear wall dig out some more and lay in blocks as you go.

Heck if a suitable location was found with good solid bedrock why not just blast/carve out an area while this would probably be much more time consuming and in my opinion more difficult and dangerous in the suitable place it could provide outstanding results.

Ok well thats enough for now if this idea strikes anyones fancy I might look into posting a few images up somewhere of suitable designs for molds and the like..

[AcMav]

Well I was thinking about the idea of how to roof a custom made Bunker, and I think I've come up with a relatively cheap solution, as long as you don't mind digging twice as much.

Step 1: Dig your hole for the bunker and construct a roof-less bunker in the hole, make sure that you save the dirt and make sure if you're using rebar to leave provisions for installing a roof above

Step 2: Construct your horizontal exit and duct tape a tarp or sheet of plastic over the doorway.

Step 3: Fill the "concrete box" with the dirt removed from the hole until you get a flat surface, which can be covered with a tarp or plywood to support the concrete.

Step 4: Pour your ceiling and let dry

Step 5: Dig through the doorway and empty the chamber of dirt, leaving you with the perfect, custom, bunker

I do acknowledge the fact it might be hard to hide doing this, but you could always go get a permit to make a foundation and pretend thats what you're doing and then stop building your small hut with just the slab set after running into "financial limitations"

[FireBomb]

The only problem I can see with your suggestion AcMav is that once you backfill in your bunker to pour the ceiling the dirt would settle quite a bit from the weight of the concrete on top of it.

[Jome skanish]

Bedrock would be perfect, one could use snail-dynamite (CaO+water) to break the rock up after drilling holes. If one builds somewhere where there is only dirt, it'll get a lot harder. Too much water such as groundwater would make it almost impossible to cure the cement/concrete properly.

For support, valves would likely be the best solution. A flat-roofed room will be MUCH weaker than a valved against pressure from above. The valves could be supported when curing by a wooden framework, and before setting up the valves one could use brick and wood columns. Like they did in the good ol' days...

For walls if building in dirt or the rock is wet one could use pre-cured cement pieces, that is an excellent suggestion. Perhaps one could use bentonite to contain moisture until the glue-utilized cement has cured.

[nbk2000]

Valves? :p

Perhaps you meant 'vaulted' roofs?

If the earth is fairly dry and stable, it can be self-supporting with a properly arched (vaulted) profile.

[Jacks Complete]

I seriously doubt you would get fresh air by growing any type of herb, medicinal or not!

If you want a solid roof (and yes, you *do* want a solid roof) you can either add it before digging out underneath it, or you can wait until the hole is dug, then fill or cover the hole with something and pour the concrete over the top.

The advantage of making the hole first is that it is far quicker and easier - all you need is a back hoe and a few days. The downside is you need serious lengths and strengths of wooden beams and steel or wooden boards to cover the hole with.

Thinking sideways a bit, though, you could use a large and tough inflatable to fill the hole for a day or two, then collapse it and remove it, leaving your void behind. Perhaps buy a cheap bouncy castle, flip it over in the hole and inflate. Cover with a tarp. Space your steel grids over it to avoid holes, and make sure they are already self supporting, then add some concrete. Let it set a bit, then add some more. I'd go with the quickest setting stuff you can find! Once set to a decent hardness, deflate and remove, then leave it a few days before jumping on it to check it is set and strong enough.

I'd probably then repeat the exercise with a second layer over the top, spaced with something to stop ground penetrating radar, water ingress, etc. and then leave it a month to get to full strength before covering in a foot of earth and some seeds.

You would, of course, need to think logistics first. Things like escape tunnels and floors and walls would need to be in place before you did this.

Any mech eng out there who know the support and masses involved in something like this?

[Skean Dhu]

Stabilized earth shelters might be the way to go.
They have many advantages.
- Cheap
- Few construction materials
- Temporary or permenant
- Only needs one person to construct
http://www.calearth.org/Emerg_files/KhaliliEmergShltr.pdf

Basically what you do is take a long sack, fill it with dirt, and coil it up like a bee hive or vaulted tunnel. For long term structures you add either lime or cement to 'stabilize' the earth. By adjusting the amount of concrete in the mix you can make it stronger and more permenant. With the shapes that you use for these buildings being domes and vaulted tunnels they have inherent strength.

The only disadvantage is that the maximum diameter for a beehive type construction is around 14 feet. This is easily overcome through crafty design and linking more 'hives' to the main chamber. With the addition of some plastic sheeting on the outside or even an adobe spacle/ cistern coating the chambers would be extremely water resistant if not water proof. and the bonus of these structures one of the main construction igredients is dirt, which given the size of the excavation you would have plenty of. And the less dirt you have to haul away the more covert the location is.

[sbovisjb1]

I suggest that you find a old well or natural inlet (cave perhaps?) and secure it. By secure I mean that you should geologically and structurally check the area if it will be appropriate for you and is sound so that it won't cave in.

[FireBomb]

Stabilized earth shelters might be the way to go.
They have many advantages.
- Cheap
- Few construction materials
- Temporary or permenant
- Only needs one person to construct


Wow that is actually really cool idea.

I did think of using sand bags for construction but decided not to mention it because it seemed like a bad idea at the time, but seeing this gives me some new ideas.

I wonder what the price of that bag like tubing cost its probably fairly cheap.

I also like the fact that you can add cement or lime to strengthen the structure.

I will have to look into the cost of this and see what it would run for a decent sized structure.

[Alexires]

I have a friend of mine that went out with an Army Engineer the other day and had a look at a command post that was below ground, and from what he was telling me, it is perfect.

First of all, a hole is excavated about 3-4 metres square and about 5 metres down. A sump hole is excavated about a metre square beneath this excavated hole and filled with gravel till its level with the bottom of the 3-4m2 excavated hole.

The frame for the shores on the walls are built, using about 100x150mm timber constructed in rectangular fashion with diagonal cross pieces. 3 of these are made the same, and the final shore wall is made with a door hole (making sure to have diagonals running to it). Attach corrugated iron to frame, then tech screw some concrete fiber boards to the frame. Apply some engine oil, or some diesel to the wooden frames to protect them some from termites. Put these in the hole, attach them together (either bolt, or wire them, but use thick gauge wire).

Lay down the floor with crossed pieces of timber like the walls, then attach some more timber inbetween the gaps of the walls to add support. Lay down some MDF board for the floor and tech screw that to the floor. Put timber beams up across where the roof is going to be (about 200x150mm) These should extend PAST the shore walls into the ground surrounding (dig a little platform and put some concrete in or something to lay the beam on)

Attach some cross beams between the main beams, then tech screw some corrugated iron onto the top of that. Cut 2 or 3 holes in the corrugated iron and run some PVC pipe up, across for a few metres then up out into the ground. This pipe is about 150-200mm in diameter. The 90º joins are to stop grenades and stuff. Put caps on the PVC above ground to stop the water Dump all dirt you dug out on top of the corrugated iron. It should hold as the engineers drove a truck onto it.

This is how the army does it. This is a second hand source, so it might be a little off, but I'm sure all the main points are there.

[irish]

Bit of a late reply here but digging holes is one thing I do know about :) .
The main thing to keep in mind is the type of ground you will be digging in, sandy, loamy soils are dangerous and need heavy timbering, if you have heavy clay you will get away with a lot less.

The best thing for the purpose covered in this thread is to tunnel into the side of a hill or bank/cliff, better ventilation and drainage that way. It is a lot more stable if you can get away without large "rooms", for example you may dig a ten meter long by 700mm wide and one meter high tunnel then dig five short tunnels at 90 degrees for the storage space. That will give you a large space with minimal chance of collapse.

The timbering I am using in my current tunnel (for Gold) is very simple due to the hard, stable clay I'm going though, this comes off a bank and is about two meters deep and going into deeper ground (tunnel is 700mm X 1000mm). I'm digging with a Walco pick (sharp point one end blade at the other made from car spring) and using treated pine for timber, I would normaly use bush timber but this tunnel will be used for a few years (all going well).
Hope these photo's work.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2297/img5865bi1.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5865bi1.jpg)

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7287/img5866mi6.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img5866mi6.jpg)

Timber is cut just oversize and hammered into place with no nails, dark stuff in the top of one photo is tin roofing held by extra timber in a soft spot.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It's a bit OT but the bunkers are a piece of work ..... so, speaking of underground bunkers....check this out..

www.nevilleawards.com/islamburg.shtml
www.saveourstate.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t12676.html
reazion.net/articles/Wesley_Smith.htm
www.city-data.com/forum/new-york/83307-islamburg-ny.html
www.american-partisan.com/cols/2002/king/qtr1/0225.htm

[sparkchaser]

Excavate a big freakin' hole and erect a monolithic dome. Very strong, very easy to build, and most of the equipment can be rented fairly easily in many rural areas.
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/0328/building_1-1.html
The research has already been done, just implement it!

[anonymous411]

I seem to remember hearing of people constructing fallout shelters from partially buried schoolbuses. I'm sure however they do it is completely ghetto compared to the plans above-- but if you're short on time, manpower, and money, it might be worth looking into.

I was shocked to see a bus in, quote, "excellent condition" go for as little as 3.5K at BusMart-- I'll bet the junkers are a real steal.

http://www.busmartinc.com/

[A.C.E.]

Reading through this tread for maybe the fourth time, I think I've come up with a couple of things that I feel haven't been mentioned or at least not discussed thoroughly enough. I also have an idea for a construction plan.

If you're building underground, you don't need to use solid concrete, you can build the walls from cinderblocks or bricks. The ground will shield it from outside attacks. The roof can be constructed from almost anything from timber to metal, depending on what material you have available and are skilled in working with. Just make sure to protect it from water.

Concrete, as well as most cement based mortars will cure perfectly well even if it's wet. In fact, concrete must be kept wet/moist for at least a week (more if it's warm) in order to cure properly. What happens otherwise is that the cement dries before it cures, this reduces the strengt of it A LOT.

The main problem with underground constructions is to keep water out of it. It doesn't matter if you're burying an old bus or building a "Fallout" style vault, you'll still have water to worry about. Unless you live in the desert in with case you can skip this paragraph. In order to keep the water out of your bunker you must do two things. ONE, lead the water away from the top of the construction. TWO, remove the water that gathers under the construction.

Leading the water away from the top is easy, just cover the construction is building plastic or something similar. NOTE, concrete is not waterproof and will absorb water, causing the roof to leak.

Removing it from the bottom could be a bit trickier. If you build somewhere where the ground is very sandy and the groundwater level is low you will probably be ok with a good one-foot layer of gravel to drain the water away from your bunker. If the ground is wet however you might run into some problems. I would suggest placing the bunker in a slope and putting drainagetubes under it. Drainagetubes are basicly tubes or hoses with small holes in them that will allow water to enter from the surrounding soil and be led of.

Based on this, here is my idea for a bunker. It can be built by any individual with a minimum of prior experience and no heavy machinery, exept for a bobcat, unless you really like digging by hand.


1. First, select a spot for your shelter, preferably a dry place with sandy soil.
2. Dig a hole big enough to fit your construction, add a half metre in every direction. If the hole starts filling with water rigt away, find another spot.
3. Fill the bottom of your hole with gravel or clinker. It is a very good idea to put drainage tubes in the gravel in order to lead the water away from your construction. Just make sure they lead the water AWAY from your site.
4. If you want a classy floor, make a mold and fill it with concrete. If you lack the knowledge and equipment, just make sure the surface is level.
5. Start building the walls using cinderblocks and mortar. Your best friend here is the bubble level. Keep everything absolutely straigt and level and you won't have a problem.
6. When the walls are done, add a layer of "Platon"-mat or similar waterprofing product. Let the mortar cure. www.systemplaton.com
7. Now for the roof, unless you're an experienced construction worker I suggest using timber. Build it so that it slopes to one end and cover it with plastic or platon-mat. I hope I don't have to tell you to use waterproofed timber. Cover the plastic with corrugated tin.
8. If you did evrything right, you should have about half a metre of air around your walls, fill this gap with gravel or clinker. Cover the roof with about 30cm. of clinker or gravel and then fill the hole with dirt. According to one of my army manuals 1 metre of dirt reduces nuclear radiation by 50%.


I didn't mention how to make the entrance as this would have to depend on the terrain, but either a door in the wall or a ladder through a hole in the roof could easily be made. Same thing with ventilation.

If you didn't go with a concrete floor you should build a somewhat elevated wooden floor to avoid problems with moisture creeping up through the ground. You should also place a pump here to handle any possible flooding.

Voila, your very own bunker is finished. Enjoy.

[futuredictator]

It seems the main problem with building an underground bunker is the roofing. I live in Arizona so the soil here is pretty tough and mostly clay so I'm not too worried about it. But I'd also like to have a more permanent roof rather than just plywood. Does anyone have an bright ideas as to building a roof out of cement, but not having to use the burying method? Having a tunnel-like bunker seems ideal, because you could make it longer and longer without having to dig it out from the surface. This also allows you to spread your bunker out to places where you wouldn't be able to dig out (neighbor's backyard). Any ideas?

[akinrog]

I don't know about the improvisability of the following idea, however I vaguely remember watching a documentary about tunnels in Discovery channel.

According to that video, IIRC, there was a need to build a subway tunnel under the (bed of) River Thames; since the conditions are muddy, a new method of tunnel construction should have been invented.

I found a wiki link for the concept : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tunnel

Anyway concept is like this: Instead of digging the tunnel, you are driving a hollow tube like frame into the the tunnel and dig inside area while reinforcing the area behind the gadget (either by masonry or maybe a reinforcement steel cage and shotcrete).

I mean how hard to construct a three pieced (wedged) steel tube, which shall be assembled into a full tube just before use by bringing three pieces (wedges of 120 degree angle) and using a few jacks to drive it into soil (horizontally)?

Wedges shall have brackets / tabs inside with necessary bolting holes so they can be assembled to form a hollow tube (with let's say 2.0 meter diameter).

You drive the thing into soil, empty / dig the hollow part inside the tube and drive it again while reinforcing the area behind it by means of steel cage and shotcrete or masonry.

If someone can improvize this, it shall be poor man's tunnel boring machine, so you can construct large tunnels without fearing the collapses. Of course underground water shall still pose a problem. :(

AFAIK, this system is the core of current modern tunnel boring machines.

I hope I could explain myself. Regards.

[Jacks Complete]

akinrog, that won't work on a dry soil, it only worked because the "soil" being burrowed through was soaked through mud at what was effectively the bottom of a river that had risen over the past hundreds of years as shit and silt was dumped in it.

Modern tunnelling machines come in two flavours, those using diamond or carbide teeth to cut the rock, and those using waterjet systems to cut the rock. The silt burrowing method is generally avoided these days as people tend to get killed when it all floods at speed, and the entire tunnel needs to be pressure bearing and waterproof. To save money, they dig down deeper and go through the rock.

[chemdude1999]

To save money, they dig down deeper and go through the rock.

Precisely. I remember watching a painfully detailed documentary on the "Chunnel". They showed schematics of the rock strata underneath the water. For the most part they could stay in the ideal rock strata, but they did spend much time and effort dodging the nasty slip-and-slide silts. Apparently, the effort and money was worth it, if it meant avoiding a possible great danger.

Even though the Thames tunnel was a solution to a existing problem, I still like akinrog's idea. If one took adequate measurements, precautions, and included strong structural elements, it would certainly be viable.

The underground water problem could be avoided with redundant pumps and/or careful planning. By that I mean keeping the levels correct so that the water would flow away (i.e., providing a lesser path of resistance than your bunker). Examining foundation books for information on tiling and water runoff should help the builder.

In regards to futuredictator's post up above, don't underestimate a good plywood and structural beam roof. Using newer laminates (both plywood and glulam beams), you could have a damn sturdy roof, without the hassle of concrete. Otherwise, I would recommend prefab units. Not easy, I know (especially custom). Keep in mind, that a beam/plywood structure is easier for a DIY person to expand on. You just need common tools (compound miter saw, circular, saw, maybe a table saw). Caulk the joints between the plywood and you should be good to go. Note: This would not work as well in wetter climates like eastern USA or the UK.

[akinrog]

akinrog, that won't work on a dry soil, it only worked .....


Actually after a little reading on and thinking about the subject, I also agree that driving the structure (shield) into soil under dry and rocky conditions shall be a pain in the ass (without distorting the shield) if not possible.

However I'm of the opinion that the tube shall provide a shelter to prevent collapses while digging. Dig a little inside drive the tube, dig a little inside, drive the tube and so on so on.


Modern tunnelling machines come in two flavours, those using diamond

Although TBMs have various types the main system is coating the inside of the bored sections. Some machines uses circular tiles which forms a tube when laid and others use shotcrete.

I believe if (a gigantic if of course), I may ever manage to improvise and use the system, I shall be going for shotcrete option with steel cage. Regards.

[nbk2000]

Used TBM's are far cheaper than new ones, as they have a pretty limited lifespan.

What's shot-out for industrial use would work perfectly fine for a survival shelter.

Think about it...the machines are rated in meters of tunnel dug per hour through rock or soil.

If you get 10 hours out of a machine that can do a 3' tunnel through limestone at 5 meters per hour, that's 50 meters of tunnel. Once you've got a tunnel, expanding a part of it into a room would be a snap.

I've seen TBM's for under $10K that you could expect much more than 50 meters out of. :)

[monkeyboy]

I have a recurring dream that 20 or so years ago I helped a friend build an underground "bunker."

He started out by having one of those cheapo steel buildings erected. He talked them into going a bit longer with the supporting posts, so they would be anchored deeper into the ground.

He then bought a 1 ton truck with a dump bed & cover(2 1/2 yard, I think).
Every day, he'd dig out enough of the dirt floor of the building to fill the bed of the truck. Lots of places around with "clean fill dirt wanted" signs...
He added a bit of interior bracing to the posts to keep the thing from collapsing.

He dug down one side first, so it looked like a big ramp. Then concrete blocked in that wall. Blocks of course brought home in the covered bed of his truck. Then moved to the other side, leaving a big pile of dirt in the middle. Once the 4 walls were built, he removed the dirt in the center, to a 2' deep pit. He then brought in enough pea gravel to fill the pit, in the covered truck.

Then we made a cement mixer out of an old stove oil tank, (400 gallon I think) the oval ones. We welded up some paddles out of 1/4 plate, hooked up some little 4 cylinder motor he had lying around (vega, I think) through 2 transmissions, both in first gear, for ultra low speed. Then he brought in truck loads of sand, gravel & cement to pour the slab floor. We had to do it several sections, though. We were kind of concerned that might leak, so before we did the slab, he put a 300 gallon sump & pump 2' under all that pea gravel.

For the roof, he brought in small I-beams, I think about 4" & put them in as columns on 10' centers. They were attached to the floor with anchors that look like heavier versions of the anchors used for attaching 4x4s. Then a grid of the same 4" channel was put in as rafters, supported by the columns. Over this we put in some really heavy corrugated galvanized sheet metal, around 10-12 guage (it's the stuff they use for under ground retaining walls when they build a big building). All brought in in the covered bed of his truck, of course.

Covered over that with pea gravel, then called to the concrete company & had enough concrete delivered to pour a floor for the garage. We had already built a mechanics pit in one of the bays, which we had covered with tarps to keep out debris. And prying eyes that might have noticed that the last few feet of it were actually a stairway into the basement...

For the purpose he needed to put it, he had to come up with an excuse for the high electricity usage & his extra income. So he got a business license & purchased all the equipment for a welding shop. He actually pays taxes & can provide reciepts for all the welding he does.:cool:

Sometimes I have the most realistic dreams.:D

[gillagin780]

If you don't have accsess to a backhoe you could just blast out or loosen the dirt with ANFO or some other HE.

Then you just fine tune it with a shovel I dont think it would take that long.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Trouble with that is that folks will know somethings up. Usually, you want your bunker to be a secret, and blasting your way into the ground is a tad bit loud.

I think that the amount of explosives required to dig out a reasonable sized underground lair is way more than enough to get noticed. That is, unless you don't have neighbors for several miles (or you have an active mine).

HE's might very well be much easier and cheaper than digging, but I don't think it's worth all the extra attention.

[totenkov]

If you are in a somewhat remote area blasting is still a viable option. I had used verious ANwax compostions for blasting dirt for the removal of earth for an underground bunker (never completed).

Provided the charge is detonated deep in the ground with the idea of moving earth, you dont nessisarly get a large bang, but a "whoomp" and shockwave that will move large abouts of dirt real fast. I wouldn't being doing this if you have neighbors that live close. The ideal place would be in the country, If you live on a farm where you have lots of land, all the better.

[Alexires]

That said, who says you have to move all the dirt at once with a blast?

Why not drill some holes into the wall/ground/whatever you are trying to move and use small charges to soften the ground up to a degree that you can move it with a shovel and a pick.

You don't need to go detonating tonnes of ANFO here, just sub-kilogram (probably less than .1kg) amounts of something with a little more brisance, or you could do a 2-stage blast.

Drill a hole a few metres deep (5 maybe), then load an ANFO charge into the bottom, with an RDX/PETN/etc charge half way up. As the blast train travels downwards, the high brisance charge shatters hard rock and then a suitable time afterwards (couple of ms) the ANFO charge lifts it, making it much easier to move around.

Unless you are trying to build your bunker in a park in the middle of a city, I can't imagine that you would have many problems from the local butcher (sells pork).

[gillagin780]

Yes that was what i ment small charges could soften the dirt making it like sand. Making it very easy to dig deeply in a short amount of time

[sbovisjb1]

An underground bunker is a difficult plan to achieve, if you don't have access to a natural or man made fissure in the earth. Man Made is not that great as the city would have plans of some sort in the archives. I would try and get the plans of my neighborhood. Plans for Gas, Electricity, Phone and Water lines. Because when you start digging, you don't want to break something. That would just get everyones attention really quick on what you are doing. But the further away from suburbia the better.

[Bugger]

I would think that the ideal site for a secret hideout would be in a cleft in the side of a steeply sloping, densely forested, hill, in a seldom-visited part of a large public reserve or park. It could be built into such a cleft in such a way that its height would not "give it way", and then it could be further hidden by heaping earth and plant debris up against its walls and its roof. The door, and shutters covering the windows, could be camouflaged with vegetation. But, at the same time, it would have to be reaonably close to a road through the forest, so that building materials and tools can be offloaded and hidden at the nearest point on the road, and then carried to the site.

[wolfy9005]

An idea i've been thinking of is snagging a 40' container, and burying that underground with 6 feet or so of dirt(not sure on how strong they are). It'd fit a bed, food for 6-12months, a water tank, and some other goodies.

good idea with the well, but it might just keep filling up so i'd be careful with it.

[sbovisjb1]

Read Beneath the City Streets By Peter Laurie. http://www.amazon.com/Beneath-City-Streets-Peter-Laurie/dp/0140033815

Shows a lot of the government bunkers and tunnels. A lot of them are abandoned today, so use it to find a couple.

[Bugger]

This book, which I found on this page:
http://www.forumakademi.org/tunnelling-and-tunnel-mechanics-rational-t10274.html
contains a link to a download of a book of great importance to this thread:

Tunnelling and Tunnel Mechanics: A Rational Approach to Tunnelling

ISBN: 3540251960
Author: Dimitrios Kolymbas
Publisher: Springer ; 1st edition (September 26, 2005)
Publication Date: 2005-09-26
Number Of Pages: 437
Average Amazon Rating: 4.0

Summary
The book covers not only practical aspects but also the underlying theoretical approaches. It also covers the fundamentals of rock mechanics. It addresses

not only students but also professionals who are interested to understand the underlying principles and methods and - possibly - to further develop them.
Emphasis is given to the mechanical approach rather than to hardly tractable empirical statements. The text is concise and as far as possible complete and
comprises a large list of citations. Publications of the English and German speaking scientific communities have been taken into account.

Table of Contents
1 Introduction 3
2 Installations in tunnels 31
3 Investigation and description of the ground 57
4 Heading 75
5 Support 131
6 Grouting and freezing 159
7 The new Austrian tunnelling method 171
8 Management of groundwater 177
9 Application of compressed air 197
10 Subaqueous tunnels 203
11 Shafts 211
12 Safety during construction 217
13 Behaviour of soil and rock 235
14 Stress and deformation fields around a deep circular tunnel 271
15 Supporting action of anchors/bolts 305
16 Some approximate solutions for shallow tunnels 313
17 Stability of the excavation face 329
18 Earthquake effects on tunnels 335
19 Settlement of the surface 339
20 Stability problems in tunnelling 349
21 Monitoring 353
22 Numerical analysis of tunnels 365
A Physics of detonation 379
B Support of soil with a pressurised fluid 385
C A simple analytical approximation for frost propagation 387
D Rigorous solution for the steady water inflow to a circular tunnel 393
E Aerodynamic pressure rise in tunnels 397
F Multiphase model of reinforced ground 399
G Deformation of a tunnel due to seismic waves 403
H A rational approach to swelling 405

Download :
http://rs33tl.rapidshare.com/files/11768980/Tunnelling_and_Tunnel_Mechanics.rar 9.97 Mb - D. Kolymbas (Springer-2005)

[crazywhiteguy]

Normally functional rail car boxes get down to around 5000$ CAD around here. But often if you ask the scrapyards and railcar warehousing places they will have abandoned and rusted out cars. The last price i saw for one of these was 500$. My dad's friend was talking to me about a guy he knew in the business and also had a little fun fact for me. If you can find a rusted rail car sitting in a rail park with a busted axle or wheel, you can contact the owner (their number is often on the train) 100% of the time they will give it to you for free. Sometimes they will even pay for transport if its reasonable. The reason for this is simple. It costs them money to keep it, It wouldn't generate any scrap money seeing as they are used until rusted into train hell and no matter what they would still have to pay transport to get it off their tracks and storage area.

[sbovisjb1]

http://www.oneofakindhouse.com/fortress.html
Someone showed me that! Its quite something. He built it over 20 years!

[Bugger]

To excavate and build something like that, by hand as he says, lined with reinforced concrete, and on 3 levels, he must have been working full-time on it for the 20 years! As it is underneath the two-storey house, with the lowest level floor below sea level, the house would have had to have been shored up with supports to prevent it from collapsing into the excavated hole, and during the construction. It would be practically impossible for the Pigs to raid it without destroying it, and would give plenty of time for thw owner to dispose of any contraband items. The "fortress" is in Blaine, Washington, very near the border with British Columbia - the owner should think of building an escape tunnel from it into Canada! BTW I wonder if he got a building permit from the local city council to excavate and build it.

[Alexires]

Oh man, I hope he has a fuck tonne of ventilation. If he doesn't CO2 poisoning for him and a massive build up of Radon. It is pretty damn cool.

I have moved it to the underground bunker thread because that is where it should be.

[inkhead]

I own an Atlas F Missle Silo in Kansas as a secondary house, I can tell you that large cement containers into the ground constantly sweat. And have to have a pump running often to keep them dry even when they aren't sweating. The place I have had to be pumped of 15 feet of water, and then every so often I run the pump to make sure the very bottom of the silo linked to the LCC is dry. It's a huge pain in the but. I learned that secure facilities like these and other underground bunkers used by the military even today require HUGE amounts of upkeep just to keep the water from flowing in a sealed cement container, or causing condensation. It's a huge problem because even leaving the facilities without electricity for a week could easily flood an underground bunker or destroy anything valuable inside.

******************************

Use line breaks in future posts

-Hinckleyforpresident

[sbovisjb1]

I own an Atlas F Missle Silo in Kansas as a secondary house, I can tell you that large cement containers into the ground constantly sweat. And have to have a pump running often to keep them dry even when they aren't sweating.

Is there anyway for you to install an industrial size dehumidifier? Also pictures would be great.

Moderator Note: You did not need to quote the whole post. What I have included was enough.