Melatonin and other new knockout drugs

[nbk2000]

Been kicking around the idea of melatonin being useful in the criminal capacity, much as chloral hydrate and rohypnol have in the past.

Melatonin is usually used in under 3mg quantities to help people fall asleep. I've been using it myself for that very purpose.

But I made the logical next step in thinking that, if a little helps you sleep, that a LOT will PUT you to sleep, regardless.

From what little research I have done, it appears that melatonin, besides being incredibly cheap and easy to obtain, has many of the characteristics of a good "mickey".

To quote:

"Within 20 minutes of taking the melatonin, he felt lethargic and disoriented...feeling unusually fatigued and sleepy. After 5 hours of sleep, he awoke appearing drugged and could not recall events of the previous evening"

This was at 24 mg in a 60 year old man.

Now, there's been toxicity studies performed with people taking 6 grams a day for a month. They didn't die, but they got sick with diarreha, flushing, etc.

1 gram caused a lethargic, sleepy state in young, healthy adults who basically couldn't stay awake.

Add in alcohol which increases the effects, a half-life of 30-50 minutes, being a natural hormone (thus very difficult to differentiate in tox screens), and the best feature of all....never been used this way before. Adds up to some interesting "experimental" possibilities.

Naturally you wouldn't want to try crushing up dozens of pills and dissolving all that powder in someones drink, but it shouldn't be very difficult to buy it as a pure powder from a chemical supplier since it is harmless, right? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

I take a 3mg pill every night to sleep very soundly, so I'll have to try taking 5 or 10 of them to see just how quickly (and solidly) I sleep.

Wonder what it tastes like pure? Someone post the listing from the Merck CD (Forum FTP) here if it's listed, eh?

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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

[Mr Cool]

Any idea what the filler(s) in the pills is/are? If it says, let us know what they are, maybe there'll be a way to separate them. I'm guessing talc and/or lactose...
I think ordering it from a chemical supply house might have some problems, especially if it was discovered by the police that your victim had too much of it in their blood.

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"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.

[EventHorizon]

From Merck:

Monograph number: 5857
Title: Melatonin
CAS Registry number: [73-31-4]
CAS name(s): N- [2-(5-Methoxy-1 H- indol-3-yl)eth yl]acetamide
Additional name(s): N- acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine
Trade name(s): Regulin (Young)
Molecular formula: C₁₃H₁₆N₂O₂
Molecular weight: 232.28
Percent Composition: C 67.22%, H 6.94%, N 12.06%, O 13.78%
Literature references: A hormone of the pineal gland, also produced by extra-pineal tissues, that lightens skin color in amphibians by reversing the darkening effect of MSH, q.v. Melatonin has been postulated as the mediator of photic-induced antigonadotrophic activity in photoperiodic mammals and has also been shown to be involved in thermoregulation in some ectotherms and in affecting locomotor activity rhythms in sparrows. Isoln from the pineal glands of beef cattle: Ler ner et al., J. Am. Chem. Soc. 80, 2587 (1958); Wurtman et al., Science 141, 277 (1963). Structure: Lerner et al., J. Am. Chem. Soc. 81, 6084 (1959). Crystal and molecular structure: A. Wakahara, Chem. Lett. 1972, 1139. Synthesis from 5-methoxyindole as starting material by two different routes: Szmuszkovicz et al., J. Org. Chem. 25, 857 (1960). Biochemical role of melatonin: Chem. and Eng. News 45, 40 (May 1, 1967). Pharmacological studies: Barchas et al., Nature 214, 919 (1967). Identification of antigonadal action sites in mouse brain: J. D. Glass, G. R. Lynch, Science 214, 821 (1981). Binding studies in human hypothalamus: S. M. Reppert et al., Science 242, 78 (1988). Efficacy in control of estrus in red deer: G. W. Asher, Animal Reprod. Sci. 22, 145 (1990). Reviews: M. K. Vaughn, Int. J. Rev. Physiol. 24, 41-95 (1981); D. C.Klein et al., Life Sci. 28, 1975-1986 (1981). Book: Advan. Biosci. vol. 29, N. Birau, W. Schlott, Eds. (Pergamon Press, New York, 1981) 420 pp. Review of etiological role in clinical disease: A. Miles, D. Philbrick, CRC Crit. Rev. Clin. Lab. Sci. 25, 231-253 (1987); in psychi atric disorders: eidem, Biol. Psychiat. 23, 405-425 (1988).
Properties: Pale yellow leaflets from benzene, mp 116-118degrees . uv max: 223 , 278 nm (epsi 27550, 6300) . Melting Point: 116-118 UV Maxima: 223;
THERAP CAT (VET): Control of estrus.

Nothing about LD's, etc. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54


[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited December 28, 2001).]

[CodeMason]

Speaking of Merck, I just got the CD rip off the Forum FTP, but I get the error "Insufficient data in INIT file" when I try to run it. Could anyone help me?

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Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net

[Ctrl_C]

i think i got that error the first time i ran it. try executing merck.exe straight out of the dir you installed to. i think i also reinstalled. its a bitch for some people to get to work but its well worth it when you do.

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Long

Ass

Sig

[BoB-]

I've taken valerian root and melatonin, I dont remember doses, but I do recall not being able to move, it felt like I hadnt slept in weeks.

I slept for 12 hours that night.

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Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.

[CyclonitePyro]

I bought these allergy pills one time in a New Jersey mini-mart on the way to the beach, I usually never have allergies but this was one of those "Murphy's Law" experiences. I still have the box and about half are left, they are very small. I first took one and I became very happy and drowsy, basically the same way I get when I take cough syrup. And whenever someone would say my name or something got my attention I would jump or be shocked for a second it's weird. Their called Antihistabs, each pill contains 60mg pseudoephedrine hydrochloride and 2.5mg triprolidine hydrochloride, one of those two causes the effects. The box gives the whole "do not take with alcohol or operate machinery" mumbo jumbo
but also says "If nervousness, dizziness or sleeplessness occur discontinue use and consult a doctor" I think I get get a mixture of calmness and nervousness, like I said I got real nervous when something got my attention, I feel like my heart skips a beat.
I get real tired and everything feels right. I think I'll take one.

O yeah, they work wonders on an itchy runny nose and you stop sneezing. The box says: compare with the active ingrediants of "Actifed tablets" maybe you can find that brand easier.

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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"

[This message has been edited by CyclonitePyro (edited December 28, 2001).]

[PYRO500]

Pseudoephedrine, as I know that is a prerequsite for speed and an abused drug itself, I have read that it increases blood sugar levels (sugar high?) and causes trouble sleeping so that's an upper, ,not quite what we want. Tripolidine is an Antihistamine witch blocks symptoms so that you do not react to the allergens, more than likely you were distracted into staring at a wall or something or you got a sugar burnout from a ton of blood sugar to no blood sugar.
I wonder how effective the chloral hydrate crystals produced by kurt saxon's method really are. I have yet to make them (too cold my lab is in a covered area outside with no walls.) many drugs will act like narcotics when taken with alcohol such as cough syrup witch has a chemichal abbreviated DXM, this and alcohol can put a person to sleep for a while if taken in suficient quantities but is probably the most suspicious tasting like booze and cough syrup! rophynol is widely known for being the date rape drug and as far as I know is not being used in the us anymore if it ever was, not only did it have seditive qualities it made you black out and forget stuff. another similar drug is GHB (Gamma Hydroxy Butyrate) it is a natural body chemichal and is fairly easily synthed. GHB I have herd is colorless tasteless and oderless (if made right) and is often carried around in those small water bottles. I have herd of people selling kits to make it called "Exothermic reaction kits"

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Society creates the crime, the criminal completes it.

[Rhadon]

I think GHB isn't powerful enough to put someone asleep. At least not in quantities that aren't dangerous for the person who ingests it, not to speak from GHB's side effects with ethanol.
By the way: Shouldn't GHB get schedule I in the USA :confused:? Selling its precursors should get hard if this is the case, shouldn't it?
Melatonin is a good idea, but unfortunately it's very hard to synthesize it yourself.

Rhadon

[nbk2000]

If I had the indole to synth melatonin, I'd use it to make mescaline instead. Much more profitable.

Also, GHB IS schedule 1 in the US and banned by the FDA. That includes the immediate precursors.

But GHB is easily powerful enough to knock someone straight out since it was originally developed as a surgical anesthetic.

Please also note the title of the topic "Melatonin and other new "Knock Out" drugs". GHB is well known, hence not "new".

Melatonin is readily available in either dietary supplements or as pure powder from lab suppliers without restriction.

While not a drug per se, hydrazine azide has the woderful effect of being a gas that crashes a person blood pressure so low that they pass out almost instantly. Nasty side effects like death and explosion prevents widespread use though. :D

But I have thought that it'd be an interesting way to "zap" someone coming out to their car. It's waiting in their car for them to open up the door and sit in. Within a few seconds they're out!

You then run up and punch out the window to drag them out to the waiting black van. Apply CPR and oxygen as needed. Serve while still warm.

Also not a drug is ELF magnetic fields that, at certain frequencies, induce sleep. This would be the ultimate "knock out drug" since there'd be NOTHING to detect afterwards! Details are obviously sketchy since it's DOD research type shit.

[CodeMason]

nbk: :eek: Please give me your source on the indole -> mescaline route. I find nothing in the literature, and I'm not surprised, a synthesis from indole would be excruciating and needless. Indole is usually used for forming substituted tryptamines.

[nbk2000]

I've seen it mentioned a few times on the HIVE forum (is that still around BTW?). I have ABSOLUTELY no idea how to go about doing it either, since psychedelic chemistry isn't my forte'.

[Rhadon]

Yes, the Hive still exists:
<a href="http://www.the-hive.ws" target="_blank">http://www.the-hive.ws</a>

[CodeMason]

Thanks for reminding me Rhadon. :D The last time I checked, it was still closed off to the public, and I've been meaning to post some stuff for quite some time.

[Frey Grimrod]

The Hive Just recently reopened there doors again....

Im sure you have relized these problems aswell however I see a few blatent ones....

relativly large amount of powder needed to consume.

how good would it actually work not too fast acting mabye worth some toying with though.

and the taste issue.

Also would like to add that GHB is as mentioned schedualed however its main precursors ARE NOT they are just highly watched now there is a difference. I dont have much experience with GHB however I believe an adequate dose to knock someone out on it and a near - lethal dose are pretty close with that one.

Pfed or PseudoEphedrine is indeed a stimulant, and as mentioned before one of the common methamphetamine synthesis's use it.

U know what I think would be fun for knocking people out randomly would be to obtain one of those air powered IM injection guns and load it up to dispense anastetic doses of ketamine

oh and RAPING PEOPLE IS BAAD MMMK? Last valerian would be good to add aswell IMO

[S. Toppholzer]

Does anyone know a source for DMSO?
Any possibility homebrewing this substance?

[Polverone]

DMSO has been touted as an "alternative" therapy for all sorts of medical conditions by certain individuals. This means that it is pretty easy to find at some health food/alternative medicine stores and even some pharmacies. But that is in the United States; I am not sure how it would be where you are. It is funny to see the bottle in the pharmacy with all the warnings that it is not for medical use, yet sold near the other drugs and claiming that it is extremely pure. I actually want some for use as a solvent, which means that the pharmaceutical stuff is a little too pure/expensive for me ($20 for 500 mL, IIRC).

[megalomania]

I had a synth around somewhere, but I think it may be an industrial one. I have found DMSO over the counter as a horse linament...
According to my notes it was 99.9% DMSO and $4.50 US for 90 mL.
The store was a small shop that sold feed, grain, and garden stuff. They had a shelf for horses and that was there. I suspect that price may be high because they also had a box of mothballs labeled as "Wasp repellent" for $10.00!
DMSO is forbidden for use on people (in the US anyway) but is still used for animals.

[nbk2000]

I know DMSO is made by peroxide oxidation of Dimethyl Sulfate. DMS is extremly toxic and hazardous, being on par with mustard gas for toxicity and vesication. Only reason it's not used as a CW is its extreme water sensitivity.

Sounds like a lot of overpricing going on for DMSO. I could get pint bottles for $8 in california.

[BleedingLips]

<a href="http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal35.shtml" target="_blank">TiHKAL: Melatonin (Synthesis by Shulgin)</a>

From old geezer Shulgin:

QUALITATIVE COMMENTS :
(with 2.5 mg, orally) "I took one tablet sub-lingually just before I lay down to sleep, and I slept very well. I was not tired the next day."

(with 5 mg, orally) "I cannot distinguish it from placebo ."

(with 10 mg, orally) "For over a month I would take 10 milligrams every night, or five or 2.5 milligrams. More tens than 2.5's. I slept well and then I stopped it all, and still had no trouble sleeping. Why waste the money?"
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BTW, nbk2000, it would be very hard (excruciating, as CodeMason said) to make mescaline from indole, as mescaline is a phenethylamine and indole is the base of tryptamines and the structure is completely different. Also, to add the 3,4,5-trimethoxy configuration on the benzene ring would be very hard to add from scratch.

Typical tryptamine struture:
dimethyltryptamine
<img src="http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/images/tihkal06.gif" alt="" />

Typical phenethylamine structure:
phenethylamine
<img src="http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/images/pihkal142.gif" alt="" />

Mescaline
<img src="http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/images/pihkal96.gif" alt="" />

<small>[ May 28, 2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: BleedingLips ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Thank you oh so much for your astoundingly sharp observations on the impossibility of synthesizing mescaline via indole. I'll be sure to nominate you for next years Nobel Chemistry Prize.

:rolleyes:

Fuck! Make one little slip up in memory about some obscure chemistry reaction that hasn't been thought of for 10 years, and some Otaku Newbie decides to make a big production over such insignificant minutae.

:mad:

I too have the links to PIHKAL and TIHKAL. I even have the books! But that doesn't mean I'm busting them out for a minor (very minor) topic, complete with structural diagrams.

Oh, and let's not forget that shulgins brain doesn't work like everyone elses. Not after consuming litterally thousands of different psychedelics and amphetamines over the last several decades.

His saying that melatonin had no effect would be like a rat that lives in the Chernobyl reactor saying D-Con is harmless because it didn't hurt him . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Mick]

"His saying that melatonin had no effect would be like a rat that lives in the Chernobyl reactor saying D-Con is harmless because it didn't hurt him .

lol funny shit :D

[green beret]

Sorry to be a bit off topic but did anyone in Australia notice that you can buy Chloral Hydrate from acechem, quite cheaply too.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[nbk2000]

Have you actually tried ordering it? I bet you there's restrictions. There always is. Besides, you'd be better off making it yourself so there's no papertrail for the piggies to find/follow anyways.

[jlwilliams]

How about diphenhydromine? It's used in otc sleeping tablets in 25mg increments with 50mg being a recommended dose for sleeping (as oposed to it's use for treating alergy symptoms) with a maximum dose of 400mg acording to one of the online quick references. If the filler was removed by whatever means would the 'purified' diphenhydromine from 6 or 8 tablets make a servicable mickey?

[festergrump]

Having a bout of necromancy, are we?

Diphenhydramine is also manufactured under the name Benadryl or Dimedrol, hence it's use in combatting alergy symptoms as on OTC antihistamine. A fairly high percentage of people (myself included) have a very opposite reaction to this drug. Instead of feeling sleepy, we feel wired as if we just drank two pots of strong coffee while the anti-allergy effect is nil. Also, many get smallish muscle spasms when taking this drug, and that really makes trying to get to sleep a real problem. This is at regular dosage.

Now as you increase the dosage in someone like this, the side effects become more severe, and I can tell you from personal experience that it's very unpleasant. Unpleasant enough for me to begin wondering who had the audacity and opportunity to slip me something. Moreso, it could cause heart attacks in those prone. Not cool, IMHO.

As NBK stated early on, melatonin is naturally produced by the human body, which makes it ideal for use, nefarious or natural remedy. It has none of these side effects but does have the convenience of working well at doses 16 times smaller than that of diphenhydramine.

So I'm beginning to wonder: What's to like about diphenhydramine?