WWII bomb in my neighbourhood

[mr.evil]

Hey,
about 40metres off my house, there is an WWII bomb, the EOD(explosive detecting team) said it is proboubly an english 500pounder, dropped in times of emergency; an spitfire was going down, and dropped his bombs(hell, just above my neighbourhood) so they are going to search and clear the bomb because of the roads need to be re-newed.

The bomb lays proboubly at 10-12 metres, and about 40meters in front of my house, now my question is: what would be the damage when the bomb detonates accidently?
Hopefully no big damage to the houses, than it is nice :) nice shaking floor :cool:

Hopefully i find someone from the EOD who has an nice caracter, so i can take some pics etc.

i know, my english sucks..sorry

Cya

[Yikes]

Well, a lot!
For instance: ruptured gas pipes, sewers etc. from 'earthquake'. Or damage to the foundations of your house. Windows broken for sure from blast....and maybe walls too.
A 500 pounder has some 260 pounds of explosives inside. Which would mean that the crater will be about 4 meters deep and 8 meters wide....and all of that sand and debri has to go somewhere. For instance through your house.
Minimal safe distance will be about 600 meters, so I don't think you will be able/allowed to take photographs.

Now how about going there, at night, with a couple of buddies and stealing the thing? Easiest way of getting your hands on 260 pounds of TNT! :D

By the way, I didn't know Spitfires were used as bombers??
:confused:

<small>[ April 02, 2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Yikes ]</small>

[Anthony]

So that's where I left that thing! :D

Seriously, at 40metres I wouldn't want to be in your house. Not sure what the over pressure would be, although it'd probably be the shockwave that caused most of the damage.

I didn't know of spitfires carrying bombs either, but I see no reason why they couldn't carry a single 500lb bomb slung underneath.

[ENGINEERKILLER]

Yikes I think you are using the filler weight of a MK82 500 pounder?
But I haven't seen it so I am not sure usualy though bombs of that era had a higher filler weight to case ratio .If your house is made of wood at that depth you would realy only have to worry about slight foundation shifting and the windows would be gone if it was stone or you had a basement it might collapse it just because of the earth shock.Chances are if you ask them to take a picture for you they would probably do it.I doubt they would let you get near it ,or atleast I wouldn't.

I strongly discourage the idea of trying to steal a live unexploded bomb some of the british pistols (their name for a bomb fuze)have antidisturbance features like hung cocked strykers.

[RTC]

Well it'd blow out the windows on a british made house, level a american made one.

Why?

Simple fact that american houses are shite, and made with wood, whereas british houses (some american houses) are made of solid brick/concreate.

Sure you might get a bit of foundation damage.. but compared to having to build a new house..

[nbk2000]

Ah, but stone and concrete are inflexible, hence a shock would cause fractures and cracking. Wood can bend and sway with it. This is why well-built wood homes survive earthquakes that demolish brick and concrete homes in california.

And british houses are made of brick and stone because they haven't had enough forest to build US style houses in centuries.

Though I'd prefer an underground lair myself.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Give the EOD guy one of those disposable cameras to snap some pics for ya.

I'd stay away from the bomb me self. 50 years in the ground equals not safe. Though it would be nice to have a few hundred pounds of TNT to play with.

[mr.evil]

Hey,
Yes i'm sure it is an MK82 500pounder(i readed it in the newspaper)

Are you trying tom say, that when the bomb detonates accidently, there isn't much left over from my house? :rolleyes:

well, if the minimum distance is 600metres, we can't stay in the houses for sure(the goverment doesn't take the risk)

anthony;
hehe funny one :D
no, but they are working the whole night at that thing, so i can't take a look, or stealing some pounds of TNT :) to bad.
and i wouldn't be able to carrie 250kilograms eh? with all the risks of detonation.
about the spitfire, proboubly it was one, not for sure but some people(old people) had seen that the boms were dropped in 1943.

i give a cheap camera to an EOD guy, he will take some pics for me.
do you think the bomb contains TNT?, i mean; if it contains RDX the blast will be much bigger, and also the damage...

Cya

[nbk2000]

RDX was researched during WW2, but wasn't actually used, so it's TNT.

Though, if it's 30 feet or more underground, I don't see why they even bother moving it. It's been there half a century, and at that depth, it'd be fine for centuries more.

[mr.evil]

Hey,
thnx NBK. 200kg. TNT huh? that sounds interesting to me, today i will ask an EOD guy if he can tell me more about this thing. (over 3 weeks the roads will be closed, now they are preparing the stuff)

The reason why the move the bomb, is because of the ground is they are going to re-new the roads, and tell me. When you are a guy from the goverment, you wouldn't have the risk they blame you when the bomb detonates under ground, because of you wouldn't move it?

hopefully i may take a look at the detonation field :)

(sorry for my bad english)

Cya

[ENGINEERKILLER]

mk81,mk82,mk83,mk84,gpld's(general purpose low drag )didn't exist then they were made for supersonic aircraft .Hence the long cigar shape.The closest thing would probably be the the M64A1 which is 278.3lbs of tritonal(80%tnt, 20%Al) and has a safe frag radius of 1,020 meters.My guess would actualy be the m117 just because of how many were made during the time but its a 750lb bomb with 386 pounds of h-6(45%RDX, 30%tnt, 35%AL 5%wax)with a safe frag radius of 1,286meters.

whenever an item is buried that deep you can dramaticly reduce the frag radius. Generaly speaking if your going to rsp a piece of ordnance you try to evacuate everyone out of the frag radius because in the EOD community shit happens and rsps are not perfect.

[cutefix]

RDX was used in the latter part of WWII by the brits;but it was publicized as applied only in their huge blockbuster bombs.They were having difficulty in making RDX in large quantities for indiscriminate use for other ordnance. Therefore that 500 pounder is likely filled up with tritonal,or other TNT blends(e.g., amatol).

[Arkangel]

rsp = render safe procedure????

[ThaFreak]

Well, if I lived in that house. I would spent the night somwhere else! But on the other hand. When it detonates, you won't notice...

[ENGINEERKILLER]

RSP=render safe procedure. EOD =explosive ordnance disposal
Sorry next time I will clarify.

[Anthony]

I stand corrected, I had a quick chat with a WW2 buff and apparently Spitfires were indeed used to carry single 500lb bombs. Although the strategy wasn't used for long as the load badly affected the areoplane's areodynamics, the spitfire had a weak frame, couldn't carry much, was difficult to aim the payload and many were lost to small arm fire from the ground as they had to fly low to hit the target. Apparantly used for opportunity bombing.

[mr.evil]

as i said, they don't know it 100% sure it was an Spitfire, it could be an other fighter or bomber...anyway, have you any idea how big a 500lb bomb is? i mean length, height etc.

Today i will take a look on 'the'place and see if i can find an explosive expert.. i think we could talk about *nice* stuff than :)

Cya

[Bitter]

There were no 'weapons programs' back in those days- they made everything according to need. If there was a shortage of a certain engine model, they would use an engine designed for another aircraft (that was of similar size) in its place etc. If there were not enough bombers, they would rig up a fighter (such as a spitfire) to drop bombs too.

[S. Toppholzer]

..b.rings me to the question of how the EOD defuses the bomb if they cannot just ged rid of the fuse at the top and/or the bottom of that thing. I know that sometimes they're using some strong acid to eat through the casing - but then?

[RTC]

For those people in the UK that are fan's of <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/tw">tomorrows world</a>. There was something covering bomb dearming.

There was this thing that fires little bits of sand with water that cuts through the metal case, and then they either take out the explosive or the fuse, check out the site to see if they have any information on it.

[Arkangel]

I can see engineerkiller trotting over to this one so I'll get my oar on quick, so he can correct me if I'm wrong.

One of the first things they do is remove the explosive. On the assumption that if it's not gone off in 50 years it's not about to unless they rough it about, they fix a dinky portable milling machine to the casing, and mill a couple of large holes on it. Using these, they then steam the explosive out and dispose of it (what a tragic waste :( ) Then, there's less danger when you dismantle the pistol - not sure how they do that.

A little while ago I saw a programme with a really natty little cutter that made the same type of hole, but using high pressure blasting sand to cut a hole. That way you don't need to actually touch the bomb before scuttling off to your control bunker, and it is a much less vibrating/vibrasive you know what I mean, technique.

Personally, my way of dealing with them if I was on an EOD team would be to PRETEND I was doing all that shit, whilst placing a decent sized shaped charge alongside and then making sure I had some ear defenders :D

Then, when the residents are picking their posessions up from around the neighbourhood, you could tell them how damned lucky they were that you'd risked your life for them. Reckon you could get away with it at least a couple of time before they figured it out!

[nbk2000]

One technique uses electrochemical erosion to drill a hole through the casing.

This requires nothing more than salt water, a car battery, and a pump to circulate the water through the copper piping that is the "drill". It eats through any conductive metal, no matter how hard it is.

I found this at a demining site, and have since adapted it for use in safecracking since it's silent, heat and vibration free, and can eat through anything conductive...like hardened steel plate. :D

You people in the areas where WWI was fought have an unlimited supply of explosives right under your feet. Just take a stroll by farms and you should see piles of plowed up shells that you can snag and cut open (as described above) to recover the explosives.

Mind you, you may end up opening a chemical shell, so it'd pay to listen for any sloshing which indicates a liquid filling.

You find any large 8" shells shaped like a SCUBA tank, you've hit the jackpot! Those are livens shells and have 40 pounds of liquified phosgene each.

Gas those damn gophers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Arkangel]

Now you mention it, I'm always tripping over stuff like that on my travels - piles of rusty shell and bomb shaped stuff. Can't think why I've never thought of it before!

The stuff in England is only ever found when some lucky bastard in an earthmover scrapes one up without blowing himself to shit. In places like the Somme, I can imagine there is a lot more, but generally when it appears, someone shits their pants and reports it before an enterprising pyro can drag it away on a long rope.

[Anthony]

I can presume that the Brits used the same sorts of fuzes and anti-tamper mechanisms that the Germans did.

During WWII, bomb disarming seemed to revolve around removing the fuze and then just hauling the rest of the now safe bomb away.

Techniques I remember are: using a powerful electromagnetic coil place around the fuze for clockwork mechanisms, which froze the mechanism. I'm not sure why but I guess they used steel works rather than brass. Forcing a conductive solution into the fuze with a pump to short out and discharge the batteries in electrical fuses.

I guess things have changed nowadays and they go through the casing and empty out the filler. I don't know which method I'd prefer to do, aside from getting the fuck away from it and let someone else screw around with it:)

[ENGINEERKILLER]

I don't about the enviromental protection laws in your country mister evil. Here in the us it would be hard to justify leaching explosives into the soil so our acid tripanics have gone the way of the dinosaur.
We have remote milling machines but we only use them when we are trying to preserve a piece of ordnance for further use like museum pieces or aids for training.Considering how far the bomb taveled into the ground there is a good probability that the nose fuze is still intact,meaning it slowed down instead of coming to a sudden stop.
This would leave the techs to deal with 2 fuzes most bombs especialy big ones are dual fuzed so basicly the techs have about 4or 5 options .Blow burn or low order the bomb in place blowing it in place is out of the question, burning it with thermite on the casing is possible but usualy requires more than one attempt and there is a good chance of it high or low ordering itself,you can try a low order with a donor charge or a or a shape charge with a big ass stand off rupture the casing and hope the H.E. burns itself out,this method requires experince and finesse that I don't yet have so I wouldn't try it next to someones house just yet.
I would probably attack the fuze either unscrewing it manualy or remotely (can you say rocket powered wrench with 500ft lbs of torque).Or just knocking it off with brute force think remote control sledge hammer.

The last option would be to ignore the fuzes and jerk it out of the ground and then taking it somwhere to blow it up .Almost all EOD problems end with taking it somwhere else and blowing it up.

I know this is off topic but I never wear ear protection when I see the flash I put my little fingers in my ears wait for the shock wave to hit me then I pull my fingers out and remain very silent shrapnel has a tendancy to follow the shock wave at greater distances this is one thing you want to hear if its coming in your direction .

[mr.evil]

Hey,
i don't know how to react on this posts, cause i don't know much about bombs and the EOD. I aint gonna dig the bomb up, much to risky to get caught :p anyway, i steal some signs, which sais: Verboden toegang i.v.b met Explosiegevaar, wich is in english something as:
Do not enter, risk for detonation.

i think the EOD just dig the bomb up, takes out the ignition and bring the bomb to a 'safe' place to detonate it, i guess on the beach(it isn't so far from here, maybe i can come close, to take some pics)

i don't know how you guys react about me, but i hope i survive the day the bomb will get moved, i guess we will get evecuaded...atleast, i'm not in my house that day!! :)

Cya(sorry for my shitty english)

Thanks everyone for his helpfull information.

[nbk2000]

It's been estimated that a quarter to a third of the shells fired during WW1 failed to explode due to poor quality control, mud, and other factors. That means there's TENS OF MILLIONS of unexploded shells for your pyro enjoyment.

You could find some things like this to play with. :)

<CENTER> <img src="http://www.diggers.be/images/bommen/foto5.jpg" alt="" /></CENTER>
A 12" artilllery shell. Contains more than 20 pounds of explosive.

<CENTER> <img src="http://www.diggers.be/images/bommen/foto16.jpg" alt="" /></CENTER>
Typical farmers pile of UXO. The large cylinder at the fore on the right is a Livens projectile with phosgene gas. :D

For more info on these things, go to <a href="http://www.diggers.be/E/activiteiten/bommen/welkom.htm" target="_blank">The Diggers Website</a>. Both english and (german/dutch?).

It is extremely dangerous to fuck with these things, especially disassembling them. So, if you do, be aware of the risk of gruesome death. There's whole swaths of the somme and verdun that are off limits to people because there's so many unexploded shells and gas bombs that people regularly get blown up just walking through there.

And lets not forget the pools of mustard gas that are still sitting entombed in clay waiting to be disturbed by your stepping in them. Or the jagged skeleton bones sticking out of the ground to impale your foot. It's a real nasty and creepy place to be.

I've heard of EOD in britan during WW2 using liquid nitrogen/dry ice to cool down shells to immobilize the clockworks (metal contracting and binding) or to de-energize batteries/inert detonators. This was shown (rather k3wlishly) in the movie Lethal Weapon.

[Rat Bastard]

Have any of you guys seen the British series UXB? it was a very good tv series (aired in the 80's I think). It was an incredibly suspencful series, where these people have to disarm mines, shells, bombs, and other explosives. Its pretty harsh because a bunch of the guys get blown up in the series.

It showed many ways they had to disarm bombs, like the magnetic clockstopper,and many other devices and methods.

One method was steaming the explosives out!

I saw the show on tape, you should see it, its very good.

[mr.evil]

Hey NBK,
nice pics :) yes, there is some text on this page wich is dutch..
maybe a little of topic, but what's your favorite weapon NBK? your mind? or some high-tech rifle?

Cya

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

My favorite weapon is whatever I have in my hand at the moment of need.

"Favorites" are patterns, and the RTPB says "Have no favorites.". :)

<small>[ April 05, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[vulture]

If you want WWI and WWII bombs visit the "ijzer" river county in belgium. It's low country close to the sea and the only place where the belgians managed to bring the germans to a halt by flooding the area. As a consequence, a lot of supply trucks sank in the 3 foot high mud, cannons and other large firearms got stuck in it. I'm pretty sure alot of ordnance was lost this way.

There are also a lot of artillery shells there because of the two parties where digged in and had no other means of fighting eachother.
Very regularly a farmer digs out an artillery shell, gas bombs or a bunch of skeletons. There are even rumours that the germans dumped alot of chem weapons in the belgian coast waters by the end of the war and others say the brits did so too....

(BTW, little of topic, i'll be gone for a week, so don't worry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

[Ctrl_C]

Interestingly enough, on the site nbk posted I found this:

<img src="http://www.diggers.be/images/bommen/foto4a.jpg" alt="" />

Five in a row. Found beginning of July 2000 near the first German line these projectiles, some of them sturdy whoppers, proudly posed for the photograph. The following day would have been too late, it appeared, for by then someone with little sense of responsibility but a large car boot had picked them up for his collection…

From left to right :
- British 18-pounder (shrapnel ; range appr. 7,000 or (improved version) 10,000 yards)
- British 60-pounder (high-explosive ; range appr. 10,000 yards)
- German or British (?) (21 cm ; range appr. 11,000 yards)
- British 9,2 inch shell (23 cm ; range appr. 11,000-12,000 yards)
- German or British (?) 12 inch shell (30,5 cm ; about 70 cm large)

<small>[ April 05, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[shooter3]

Sorry, this post is a couple of days late. Composition "B" is largly RDX. My Dad remembers when the switchover came(late 1944). The blast was much greater than the tnt they had been useing. I had read that England had used a lot of Ammatol because of a chronic shortage of toluene(cheap but less powerful). Dampness could play a roll in how this job is handled, because of the AN. Engineerkiller, What kind of primaries were used in that old ordnance, and how long would it take to become inert? (I've got some old mercury fulmanate primed bullets and only 1 in 5 will fire).

[S. Toppholzer]

NBK:

On the website ("the diggers") you mentioned, there's a picture of some filler of an English grenade which these guys call "picrine".
The powder is intense blue! Got any idea what exactly this could be?
Cannot be Picric acid since that is yellow tending toward white.

[kingspaz]

since its called picrine, could it be some derivative of picric acid? or maybe its gone off after being exposed to the weather...

[Arkangel]

Interesting that the "diggers" can't work out that the boxes with the yellow blocks are just demolition packs of TNT (you can see the hole for the det). Vast quantities of these were used in all sorts of roles - those of you that read a lot should read "Birdsong" to learn the way underground warfare went on - fucking awful way to go.

Anyway, the "diggers" hypothesise that the wax paper wrappings for the TNT "contained paraffin wax. For extra smoke production?"

What fucking dimwits. They have clearly never been close to any TNT when it's gone off, as smoke would be the last of their worries. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[nbk2000]

It's been sitting in wet mud for almost a century, reacting with an iron grenade hull.

Plus, maybe it was dyed blue for identification purposes.