Thermobaric Mixtures

[Mr Cool]

Does anyone have any information on these, or possible ways in which they could be improvised? They were mentioned here a while ago, but not much was said about them IIRC.
I think the idea was similar to a F/A explosion but faster. In other words, high-energy fuel (petrol, Al powder etc) was dispersed by a small amount of HE, and instantly ingited creating a lot of very hot gas and therefore a huge pressure. This might be a good way to economise on explosives while still making a devastating device.
One idea I think was mentioned was Al powder mixed with NM and a sensitiser, e.g. 75% Al, 20% NM, 5% ethylenediamine. NC could also be added to form a mouldable putty.
Any ideas?

[simply RED]

There are many ways to improvise thermobaric charge. The SCHMEL(scmel is something like RPG but it shoots thermobaric projectiles) conatins mixture of isopropyl nitrate and magnesium powder, the Mg is well despersed. It is 60%IPN 40%Mg. It is easy to improvise if you have the fine metal dust. I think Al can be used instead of Mg. The charge needs super powerful booster and good confinement. Tritonal, can be made if you have TNT and Al powder, it has thermobaric effect. Metal powders can be mixed with high explosive like nitromethane, methylnitrate(is it acidic?), ethylnitrate, RDX, nitroglycerine, all kinds of nitroaromatics... You may try to use gasoline or nature which may be dispersed by high explosive but the effect is not always excelent.
During the WW2 the russians have used ignition charge(not thermobaric but useful) which is made of bottles full of gasoline and 200 grams TNT in the center of bottles .

[Mr Cool]

I thought a big charge would be needed to set them off reliably due to the relatively low HE content.
NM is acidic, so perhaps NM and Al would not be a good idea after all, especially if it's going to be stored.
Another idea that sounds really good that I've read about are solid F/O-type explosions, for example a porous aluminium block soaked in liquid oxygen just before use. It is set off with a compound detonator. However, I doubt this would be practical for use.

[Tony Montana]

wait till the page loads completely:
'http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/faeseq.html"]http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/faeseq.html'

[PHILOU Zrealone]

A friend of mine has described me a weapon made from TNT and Al ultrafine powder with about 70% Al by weight set by a powerful detonator. The device has an incredible strong shockwave but the best effect is the contraction of the air linked to N and O consupmtion by the Al and C dust.
Like a breathing move first expansion and then fast contraction due to AlN and Al2O3.
This kind of weapon was used in some middle east montains with mujaidin like ennemies.
A 4 tonn bomb of this eather kill you by:
*the first shockwave
*the heat
*the asphyxy
*the second contraction wave
What to make a four shots from a single stone (As we say in french) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/redface.gif) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[cutefix]

This looks like tritonal to me enriched with more aluminum.I think this will create a fireball effect sucking all available oxygen in the vicinity for combustion.These will indeed create asphyxiating effect to any humans or animals nearby.The shock wave will appear to linger more than conventional mettalized explosives and this will create more damage.

[nbk2000]

It's being worked on.

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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[Mr Cool]

60% PETN, 40% Al seems to work well. I set off a small charge at night and it gives a blinding flash and a very powerful detonation, but I doubt there'd be much of a contraction wave in small amounts. But if you have PETN I suggest you try it. I used ordinary spherical Al, about 300 mesh I think.

[cutefix]

Thermobaric weapons can be classified as HEI(high explosive incendiary)Therefore
60/40 PETN/Al is an HEI similar to HE/thermite mixture such as cyclotol/thermite or comp B/thermite combination. but still is faster than a thermobaric mixture of 70/30 Al/TNT,so the expansion and contraction wave is not well elaborated.60%PETN is equivalent to 4980 meters per second.and that Al/TNT is estimated to be 2070meters per second..That schmel composed of 60/40 isopropyl nitrate/magnesium should have roughly 3000 meters per second. Therefore for an enduring shock wave it must have lower VOD.followed by intensive heat wave.An ordinary high explosive reaction is measured in microsecond and incendiary reaction is in milliseconds.Therefore the combustion of the incendiary is given more emphasis than the blast of the HE;which only serves to provide rapid initiation, and the initial shock wave.The final shock wave is the result of rapid expansion due to heat, brought by fast combustion of the incendiary material using the surrounding oxygen in the explosion vicinity..
I would say that your composition is good,but if preferably diluted with more aluminum,it will surely improve the results.Thermobaric effect is more noticeable in enclosed spaces,where maximum casualty can be inflicted,that is why, this weapon is suitable also for attacking command bunkers and even tanks/APCs/vehicles,and enclosed sniper positions.For open spaces( like valleys) it will need ton quantities of this thermobaric material to observe the spectacular effect.

[Mr Cool]

Thanks, I'll try with more Al.

[NightStalker]

I found a video clip of a Russian RPO-A thermobaric round destroying a two story brick building. :)

'http://www.partners-international.org/Alerts/Thermobaric/CLIP1.MPG'

Someone upload it to the FTP.

[nuclearattack]

A very powerfull thermobaric mixture should be blasting gelatine with Al powder at 50/50 ratio. I think you will need a booster but this is not a problem. Maybe it's possible to increase the shockwave effect placing a bag of gasoline over the charge, the heat of the explosion should ignite the dispersed gasoline generating a huge blast very similar to the FAE effect.
I'm very interested in FAE but in this moment i don't have a good place to test it. FAE should make a hell of noise and i think it's very visible also at far distances.

[akinrog]

The following pdf file, 'http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001armaments/burnhardt.pdf' states that thermobarric (shoulder fired -SF) weapons' charges are "normally" explosive slurries.

Is it correct or this is a misinformation? :confused: :confused:

In addition the term "thermobarric" is not present in dictionaries. Is it "thermobarric" or "thermobaric" ???

This site 'http://www.fact-index.com/t/th/thermobaric_weapon.html' (and many sites I looked at regarding this) seems to confuse FAE and thermobaric concepts. I believe they are interrelated there is nuance between them.

[Guerilla]

Yes most thermobaric mixtures have a slurry appearance so that they can be dispersed into a cloud more easily. A liquid explosive such as IPN or ethylene nitrate mixed with fine Al or Mg is typically used for this purpose.

A thermobaric fuel does not need atmospheric oxygen to detonate and therefore, unlike an FAE, it does not need exact timing or fuel/air concentration in order to work efficiently. This of course ensures a reliable use regardless the weather conditions and other such varying factors.

To cut a long story short, every FAE will yield more or less a thermobaric effect, but not nearly all thermobaric weapons are FAEs, only few.

[FUTI]

Many improvised constructions used fuel and dispersing explosive... including the terorist bombs in France (butan gas cilinders), maybe the Rusians are the first but idea is easy to understand and see. Idea is not new but constrution of device that will work the exactly what we want is different issue.

Although compsumption of air is the one of the effect of this weapons...I wouldn't put my money on this when it comes to the injury it makes to people. When the 3-4km/s explosive wave of hot 2500 degree of Celsius gas front hit you does the oxygen cutoff that last for few of seconds kill you? It is burns of skin and lungs but most of all something doctors call blast injuries that kill people (I read one article stating that it can make mess to internal organ and I really didn't like the part saying that peoples eyeballs can be pullout of the head).

Only thing that can lead to prolonged oxygen cutoff (that I can think off) is maybe the gas embolia produced by rapid pressure change but that is secondary effect of blast not directly caused by oxygen consumption by fuel charge of explosive device. Imagine the number of decompressing chambers you would need in the case of war.

[nbk2000]

Wet TB slurries are COM-BLOC, as they're cheaper and more powerful.

However, since they use toxic chemicals, and are prone to leaking, the western powers use dry TB compositions that are consolidated under high pressures and are essentially an inert solid till activated by the explosive burster.

BTW, a TB won't work without oxygen, aside from the small effects caused by the HE burster, as it's the excess TB fuel burning with the ambient oxygen within the target enviroment that produces the desired effects of long blast, high heat, and anoxia, compared to conventional explosives that contain all the oxygen for combustion within them.

Military FAE's also contain most of their their own oxygen, in the form of ethylene oxide.

[Charlie Workman]

Talley defense systems has been experimenting with thermos for use in an modified M72 LAW. One I formula I ran across was listed as being-
32% wt. Aluminum
40% wt. Zirconium
26.75% wt. Isopropyl nitrate
1.25% wt. Gellant

I think the trick with any of these mixtures is the proper detonation procedure. Run a web search on Talley or Thermobaric thru several search engines. Talley has some really good pdfs on their new stuff .I've found a lot of data on the subject, but they seem to be a little light on proper detonation. I'll try to go through my files and upload some of the pdfs I've found, but my connection is slow. Ill try to find the most useful ones so as not to waste space.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

[nbk2000]

How about just providing links to the PDF's and letting people download it at their own convenience? ;)

[Charlie Workman]

Okay, NBK, works for me. Here's the link to Talley's video page. All listings are interesting to some degree, but the SMAW & M72 stuff is tres cool. I'll have to track back to where I got the other stuff.
'http://www.talleyds.com/products/videos.htm'

Have fun.

[nbk2000]

An article at Armada that's very informative. :)

'http://www.armadainternational.com/04-4/article-full.cfm'

[Dr_Pind]

Just found a video clip of the initial testing of the BLU 118/B, prior to its introduction in the war i Afghanistan... REALLY impressive to see how far the explosion can travel in under-ground caves.

Link:'http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/03/02/gen.war.on.terror/'

Thought my fellow forum members might like to watch it.

[nbk2000]

Video demo comparing the effects of C-4, FAE, and Thermobaric explosives.

'http://www.filelodge.com/files/hdd3/56398/futureweapons-thermobaric%20bomb.wmv'

[Jacks Complete]

Not sure if anyone's posted this link yet: 'http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001944.html'

It covers the thermobaric weapon the Marines are using.

[Alexires]

Not too sure if this is the right thread to post this in but....

I was pondering many things the other night, and came up with this.

Instead of using a fuel (such as petrol/gasoline or aluminium powder) and relying on the air to supply the oxygen, why not use powdered high explosive?

Incomplete detonation irritates anyone who has had it happen to them, but why not use that to our advantage?

Imagine, if you will, a container filled with powdered ammonium nitrate. In the middle of the AN, a charge that isn't capable of detonating the AN, so it simply ruptures the container and throws powdered AN everwhere.

An instant later (long enough for the AN to spread) a second charge near by goes off, this time capable of detonating AN. The oxygen in the atmosphere would supply the little oxygen required to correct the oxygen deficient nature of AN.

Download the video NBK posted of the comparison between the C-4, FAE and thermobaric mixtures. Pretend that the white powder in the FAE was AN.

Do you think it will work? If I'm just talking crap, say so, because it was just an idea. If its been said before, then forgive me, its hard to remember every post on this forum. :rolleyes:

[Chris The Great]

You are talking crap.

#1- AN is an oxygen positive explosive, and releases large amounts of O2 when it detonates (which is why you add a fuel to it).

#2- The WHOLE ENTIRE CONCEPT of the thermobaric weapon is to use the air. Do a simple comparison of the energy released by combusting 1kg of gasoline to that released by detonation 1kg of TNT.
(The numbers are 40MJ and 4MJ)

Therefore, a FAE containing 1kg of gasoline will produce a long ranged blast effect equivalent to TEN kilos of TNT. In theory.

[nbk2000]

By using atmospheric oxygen, you greatly reduce the amount of explosive needed for equal blast force, because you don't have to chemically combine the necessary oxygen into your explosive.

[Alexires]

*grins sheepishly* ahhh, so my post WAS the definition of n00b.

Sorry guys, just an idea.

I'll post any more I get to cater to your n00b bashing needs *wink*

[Danger]

What about acetylene dissolved in acetone? Maybe mixed with Al powder ? Its well known the acetylene is explosive mixed with air, and if it is in acetone you are using less space than if you use it like a gas.

[Cobalt.45]

IIRC, acetylene needs to be pressurized to stay in solution. Requires a tank for storage. Acetylene doesn't exist as a liquid at one atmosphere of pressure...

[Danger]

I never said that acetylene was a liquid :S, I just said that you can use it like a liquid if it was dissolved in acetone...

[akinrog]

IIRC, acetylene needs to be pressurized to stay in solution. Requires a tank for storage. Acetylene doesn't exist as a liquid at one atmosphere of pressure...

Another important warning with respect to acetylene is if one tries to liquify it by pressurization, it may explode since AFAIK its triple bond renders it unstable.

[bcc1985s12]

Danger:
Are you saying that you could bubble acetylene into acetone at 1 atm, or that you would mix them under pressure?

[Bert]

Acetylene is commonly dissolved into acetone soaked "felt" in welding tanks at up to 150 psi as far as I can recall. You can have free acetylene in your welding equipment up to 15 psi over atmospheric pressure with little risk. There are techniques for transporting high pressure free acetylene, one such is to fill the pipe with small diameter metal tubes so if a portion of the acetylene does decompose explosively, the heat is sunk into the walls of the narrow tube rather than propagating to the rest of the gas- Somewhat similar to the principle of a Davy lamp.

[FullMetalJacket]

Look them up on globalsecurity, there's some good info.

I'm actually working on a thermobaric weapon myself, consisting of a Fe3O4/Al/Mg thermite main charge on top of layers of CuO/Al, KMnO4/Al and Lift BP.

The thermite is ignited, after a few seconds the heat sets off a train ignition through the CuO thermite, FP and BP launching a cloud of burning thermite into the air.

It is a very bad idea.

[teshilo]

I'm actually working on a thermobaric weapon myself, consisting of a Fe3O4/Al/Mg thermite main charge on top of layers of CuO/Al, KMnO4/Al and Lift BP.

These not a thermobaric mixtures ,like sort incendiary-fragmented explosive device.CLF3 self igniting and very potent CW agent. I dont know as he reacted with propylene(ethylene) oxide For ignition any self igniting substance need in oxygene..Seal mix CL with P.O in two separate containers with bursting charge and you got thermobaric charge...In net i see articles about These called "chemically initiated FAE".

[FullMetalJacket]

I'm not quite understanding what you just said, but I'll high-five you for the SAS in your sig. This time next year, I'm gonna be applying!

But the concept is that the lift BP basically sets of a train deflagration and steps up the intensity of each mixture until it launches a cloud of burning thermite into the air.

[teshilo]

'http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US6969434&F=0'

US patent 6969434 Castable thermobaric explosive formulations. End question...

[thermobaric]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004guns/thurs/rockets/johnson.pdf

++++++++

Use the CODE tag for long URL's. NBK

[thermobaric]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/22ndISB2005/friday/andrews.pdf
Here's another pdf with specific casing designs and some good pics.

[Dr_Pind]

Most of you know about warheads based on reactive surround technology (placing a reactive material around a central HE charge). For example the 'new' Hellfire II with it's MAC (metal augmented charge) warhead.
I read in a patent 'http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5852256.html' about reactive surround technology, and found that even massive magnesium can be used as the reactive surround. Also voids in the surrounding matrix/material greatly improves the heating and therefore the reactivity of the material.

Now for the interesting part: Could one use rolls of aluminium foil as the reactive surround? It is allready partially split up (being a thin foil), and also has air trapped inside it. I'm not sure that it would work as well as many other configurations, but it is cheap and plentifull, and easy to acquire. Simply rolling together 2-3 rolls tightly (or maby loosely, to give larger voids) and filling the center with a HE would probably work to some extend.
I haven't been able to test this theory yet, but it keeps buzzing around in my head.

Oh well... This is just a brainchild that hasn't been borne yet... So what do you guys think?;)

[thermobaric]

The aluminum rolls would probably work as an improvised reactive surround,providing some secondary combustion.
Some patents I found:
US6955732-Advanced thermobaric compositions.
US5467714-Enhanced performance,high temperature explosive.
US5996501-Blast and fragmentation enhancing explosive.
US3742859-Dual explosive layered charge.
US3978796-Focused blast-fragment warhead.
US3326125-Sequenced initiation.

[nbk2000]

I've seen other patents where a 'jellyroll' of teflon and aluminium (or magnesium) foil wrapped around an explosive core was used as an incendiary.

The problem with using a unitary metal body as a reactive charge casing is that the casing breaks into randomly sized pieces, all of which have different burning rates, and not all which ignite.

By using a green pressed casing of pre-sized metal particles, you can tailor the burn rate, and corresponding pressure-curve, to fit the target. :)

[simply RED]

'http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-04202006-171345/unrestricted/Dustin_Osborne_Thesis_Final.pdf'

Exactly on the subject.

[nbk2000]

Reading that pdf, I saw mention of this:


...oxidized by a liquid fluorine-oxygen mixture (FLOX).


Liquified elemental fluorine dissolved in liquid oxygen! :eek: That's got to be some seriously dangerous stuff to handle!

[mike16]

Here are some patents I found: :)

US6846372 - Reactively induced fragmenting explosives.
US6969434 - Castable thermobaric explosive formulations.
US5411615 - Aluminized eutectic bonded insensitive high explosive.

[FUTI]

I think I read somewhere they tried to use FLOX in "scamjet" ;) engines. Russians also tested rocket engines that used fluorine as oxidant, but you don't see those in regular use don't you?
scramjet
Now back on the topic...can we place a sheat of aluminium, wrap it with teflone tape maybe, then place another piece of aluminium, glue somehow a thick layer of perchlorate maybe on top of it and continue stacking those things until we get a charge of certain diameter. Maybe that can replace FLOX? Disolving teflone and coating pulverised Al is another idea.

[thermobaric]

US4331080-Composite high explosives for high energy blast applications.
US3297503-Cyclotol+thermite explosives.
US6843868-Explosives with fluoro-organic additives for improved energy release.

I also just read this news article saying Israel might have tested a uranium-based thermobaric weapon recently in Lebanon.http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/10/mystery_of_isra.php

[Bert]

Disolving teflone and coating pulverised Al is another idea.I don't think you will find anything to dissolves Teflon, most certainly nothing that would not affect finely divided Aluminum.

Since both materials are available as extremely fine powders, intimate mechanical mixtures will have to do-

You did read the patent simply RED posted?
'http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-04202006-171345/unrestricted/Dustin_Osborne_Thesis_Final.pdf'
The method of mixing nano scale particles via ultrasound was of interest to me.

[FUTI]

I don't think you will find anything to dissolves Teflon, most certainly nothing that would not affect finely divided Aluminum.

Only thing that I know can disolve teflone is HF with heating which is out of question for that purpose. But then I didn't know of some solvents that are capable to disolve celulose...so asking or laying out a "plot" wouldn't hurt I think. I just wanted to make mixture more intimate and hopefully desensitize aluminium. Some crap newspaper journal article several years ago mentioned something about danger with teflone frying pans since they are produced by process that later release benzene. It all pointed out as like benzene is used in manufacturing process as solvent. Do you know how they cover the pan with layer of teflone?

Since both materials are available as extremely fine powders, intimate mechanical mixtures will have to do-

I agree that will work fine. Semi-fluidic nature of fine particles is cool. I didn't have the time to read that paper although I downloaded it. Ultrasound is interesting to me, but I'm little afraid of mechanochemical processes that may happened. What is the density of those materials? I know that on prolonged standing of powdered mixture heavy material tends to settle down in the flask, so it might be wise to use some kind of binder.

[nbk2000]

It's the PFIB formed by thermal decomposition of the teflon that kills birds when a non-stick pan is left on a burner, not benzene.

The pans are coated by spraying hot particles of teflon on the pan, like car paint. :)

[thermobaric]

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=6226&DID=170228&DOC=FILE.PDFThis has some good info on polymer coated nano-particles and their performance on explosives.

US5049212-Explosive yield enhancer using microencapsulation.
US5266132-Energetic composites.
US5505799-Nanoengineered explosives.
US5587553-High performance pressable explosive compositions.
US7119179-Preparation of new high nitrogen compounds.
Patent application 20050189050-Energetic material compositions with phosporous oxide.

[thermobaric]

3259532-Sponge metal-LOX-carbon explosive.
4873928-Nuclear sized explosions without radiation(more an FAE but a hybrid device with metal particles is described).
6679960-Energy dense explosives.
7025840-Explosive/energetic fullerenes.
6203814-Method of making functionalized nanotubes.
Application 20040040637-Flash ignitable energetic material.
Fullerene Patent Database:http://www.godunov.com/Bucky/Patents.html