CrO3

[Lagen]

A BIG SORRY to deezs for "stealing" the topic! This substance has been discussed to some extent on the "brake fluid" thread, but I've not found a method for its preparation in anhydrous, crystalline form, that would work for me. I wanted to start discussion on it and at the same time avoid pissing off the mods by posting off-topic!

http://www.zschieschang.de/chem/pic/cro3.jpg

"1. A corrosive, oxidizing acid, H2CrO4, occurring only as salts or in solution. 2. The anhydride of chromic acid, CrO3, a purplish crystalline material that reacts explosively with reducing agents and is used in chromium plating, as an oxidizing agent, and to color glass and rubber."

Appearance : Flakes of red violet color
Density: 2.7 (g/cm3) at 20°C, bulk Density: 1.0 (g/cm3) (loose)
pH: approx. 1 at concentration of 10 g/l at 20°C
Melting Point: 197°C, boiling point: 250°C (decomposes)
Solubility in Water: 62 % by weight at 20°C (this really screws it up)
Solubility in other solvents, qualitative: N/A

The suggested method for preparation of H2CrO4 in solution:
"Dissolve 140g of technical grade sodium dichromate dihydrate in approximately 100 ml of water. Add two litres of technical grade 98% sulfuric acid to a 4-5 litre glass beaker that is sitting in a cold water bath in a fume cupboard. Carefully stir the acid gently and pour a few mls of the dichromate solution slowly into the acid. Keep repeating the addition every few seconds - after the previous dose has been dispersed. As long as the stirring is gentle and continuous, little or no splattering should occur, but the solution will become quite warm."

I thought about three possible ways of making it: The method previously suggested by deezs. My failed attempt: I made a saturated solution of K2Cr2O7 in water, the solution was saturated at 10°C so I used 15g dichromate and 200ml water. I didn't have enough ice, so I placed the beaker in a little water in a pyrex dish and put about 1.5kg NH4NO3 and 1kg urea in it. The temperature was maintained at about -3°C. I added 50ml of very concentrated H2SO4, but, besides a little dichromate, almost nothing precipitated. Some very tiny red crystals appeared, but that could have been a few mg. I also tried the behavior of the dichromate to acetone, but it reacted to produce a yellow precipitate (potassium chromate). A method similar to above but with K2Cr2O7. This is often reported in encyclopaedias and the like to produce CrO3 "crystals". I placed 20ml of concentrated H2SO4 in a 250ml beaker in a dish of water. I stirred in 5g of finely powdered K2Cr2O7. At first solution turned yellow (like chromate, but it wasn't), then a very deep orange-brown color. The dichromate just kept dissolving and no purple crystals were formed. Then I poured in a few cc of conc. K2Cr2O7 soln. acidified with H2SO4, mainly to supply a bit of water (stupid idea! - but I got away with it). Well just a little more dichromate dissolved and that was it. The soln turned a bit more purple color, so H2CrO4 is present in solution. Using the above suggested procedure followed by evaporation. I've not yet tried this. Na2SO4 will coprecipitate and I don't know the solubility of CrO3 in sulfuric acid, so it might not work at all. Sorry guys, I'd do some calculations first before asking, but all my data say nothing about quantitative solubilities in H2SO4!

I also remembered one thing that might be related. About 10 years ago - back in my silver-prospecting days - I kept a small screw-cap vial of a strong K2Cr2O7 solution in conc. sulfuric acid. I used a drop of this solution to distinguish between pure silver and its ore argentite. Then for a reason, I decided to quit and gave up the whole silver business idea, and the vial ended up somewhere with other junk. About 5 years ago I stumbled over it and noticed a strange thing: Just under the rim of the screw-cap there was a large bunch of dark purple crystals! I noticed that this stuff obviously couldn't be K2Cr2O7, but didn't think about it too much, and I'm not sure if I disposed of the bottle or kept it. Could that stuff be CrO3? If so, does anybody have an idea on how this process could be carried out on purpose, and the CrO3 crystallized in pure form (without K2SO4 etc.)? Any info would be very much appreciated!

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 25, 2001).]

[deezs]

You don't have to apologize! I'm happy, that you have "stolen" "my topic". I think these things doesn't belong to anyone. I have found my informations in cehmistry books, so you don't have to refer to me.

". Carefully stir the acid gently and pour a few mls of the dichromate solution slowly into the acid. "
Why should you pour the water (thinner solution) to the acid?
"very concentrated H2SO4"
What does it mean in precentages? If you don't know it exactly, you should check it's density.
I have wrote down the recipe, which I used to make CrO3. I made this stuff in a 50 ml baker.(It wasn't more thanhalf full) I didn't weighed anything - my book doesn't gives exact weighs or precentages -, but the yield was fare more than a few mgs. I filtered the fine red powder with glass wool, and put on a watch glass (8cm diameter). It covered it fully. I couldn't ger it off from the glass wool, and it was wet from sulphuric acid, but it reacted with alcohol nicely.
An idea: try it again, without any cooling. My book writes cooling, but I can't remember, if I used any. I know I should write notes...
A reliable book of mine says, that only 4.9 g K2Cr2O7 dissolves in 100g water on 0 deg. Later you say, that "A method similar to above but with K2Cr2O7. "
From this, I think you have mistyped something.
About Na2Cr2O7.2H2O my book says, that 238 g of it dissolves in 100 g water on 0 deg.

About your small vial:
It would be good to know, what was the screw cap made from. It is possible, that the acid oxidized that.
Even if it has reacted with just air, I don't think that this could be used for preparative prupose. But if you find a way, please tell it!
How does chromic-sulphuric acid reacts with argentite?

Hey! I have just found an other strong oxidizer, serching for CrO3 infos.

My new favourite is chromil-chloride.(CrO2Cl2)
preparing:
a.)
Dissolve 1 g CrO3 in a few cm3 concentrated HCl. (I'm sure wet will work)Put it on an ice bath, and add some ccH2SO4. Dark red liquid should form. I don't know the density, but I think thats not a problem for you to isolate it, if you could get CrO3.

b.) specially for you, Lagen!
The boiling point of CrO2Cl2 is 116,7 deg. celsius.
To prepare it, mix 1g fine NaCl powder with 3g K2Cr2O7. Put this into an erlenmeyer flask, and pour ccH2SO4 to the flask, ebough to cover the solid. Insert a stopper, with a glass tube, and distill out the chromil-chloride.
4 NaCl + 3 H2SO4 + K2Cr2O7 = 2 CrO2Cl2 + K2SO4 + 2 Na2SO4 + 3 H2O

Chromil-chloride is a very strong oxidizer, it lights organic compounds. Reacting with water, it formes HCl and chromic acid.

I know what to do tomorrow!

Have a nice day!!!

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[deezs]

And there's always tomorrow!

I made some chromil-chloride today.
I mixed 1g NaCl with 3g K2Cr2O7, poured into a test tube, and added some sulphuric acid. I used an other test tube in an ice bath, to collect the distillated chromil-chloride. After the addition of sulphuric acid, it started to bubble, and some yellow smoke (no smell) was produced. I heated it a bit, and distilled about 1 cm3 CrO2Cl2. Then the fumes became darker and darker (dunno why) , so I stopped the distillation.
I made a few experiments with it:
dripped onto the floor, it produces yellow smoke, and leaves a brown spot on the concrete. The fumes must be chromic acid, because when it contacts with paper, it colours it to green.
When added to some ethanol, it always lighted it! This is more reliable, than CrO3 or KMnO4/glycerol. (That somtimes just sizzled for me.)
With aceton it reacted vigrously, but I couldn't see any flame.
With benzene, and turpentine it didn't reacted.

Some pieces of advice:
Use enough great flask, or small quantities, because this stuff produces a great foam.
Heat it really slowly.
Avoid any contact, especially the fumes. I think they are toxic and carciogenic.
Use glass fittings if you have, because it corrodes the rubber stopper. (not so badly as NOx)
I couldn't pour out the stuff, what stayed in the test tube. I added some alcohol (from a safe distance) to see, if it reacts, but the test tube stayed cool. I filled it with water, and put to a safe place, to see, if it can be cleaned out.
I think if you make the reaction in a flask, you will need a few days, to clean it out. But be careful! Don't forget, what is in the flask, and what does it with water!

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[Lagen]

I don't wanna sound sarcastic, but my version is "I hope that there will be a tomorrow..."
Thanks for all the input, deezs, I will now try to answer the questions.

The suggested method for H2CrO4: This is from a Usenet article, which was written by a scientist, who should know that Acid to wata is what he oughta. But still... This is the ref he gave: Standard Glassware Cleaning Solutions, The Chemist's Companion, J.Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0-471-31590-7 (1972).

The H2SO4 I used was 90%. I thought that the concentration didn't matter in this case, as in the first experiment there was already 4 times as much water because of the K2C2O7 soln (which you correctly stated can be made only rather thin). In the second experiment, I also watered it down a bit with the addition of the solution, but it didn't change anything. You made me think about it again, as you said "red powder". The dichromate I put in the acid appears somewhat altered, normally its color is a brilliant orange, but the powder in the soln is somewhat red. (K2Cr2O7 exhibits some extreme color variations: At liquid N2 temp. it is yellow, at high temp. it is red. Don't know if pH affects it too.) I thought that maybe some CrO3 was forming on it, but I don't think it reacted completely. It has still the original grain shape and size. Some dichromate dust floating on the acid however turned completely purple. I tried some of the red powder+acid on alcohol, the reaction was violent, but it didn't catch on fire.

K vs. Na salt solubility: My sources give the following numbers (g/100g H2O):

<table width="100%"><tr><td>Soly g/100g H2O</td><td>0°C</td><td>10°C</td><td>20°C</td></tr><tr><td>K2Cr2O7</td><td>4.49</td><td>7.66</td><td>12.23</td></tr><tr><td>Na2Cr2O7</td><td>163.85</td><td>171</td><td>180.90
</td></tr><tr><td>Na2Cr2O7 . 2H2O</td><td>240.60</td><td>254.34</td><td>273.94</td></tr></table>
There are some differences, but these shouldn't change anything. I don't know, if K2Cr2O7 forms a hydrate at normal temp., but I think it doesn't. You are right that the potassium salt is far less soluble. I thought like this: I'll add an excess of K2Cr2O7, only some will dissolve in the 2g water to form a concentrated solution. In this way it was similar to the procedure with the sodium salt. Btw in the books they mention no solution. They just say "sulfuric acid with potassium dichromate" "forms crystals".

I tried again, as you suggested. 40ml H2O and 6g K2Cr2O7 were placed in a beaker, heated over a gas flame with shaking until everything dissolved, and allowed to cool. Some dichromate pptd, but this was left there to ensure saturation. 30ml of the above acid were added, in five portions. And this worked! Immediately a red ppt appeared, and the blanket of the dichromate xx redissolved. I kept adding the H2SO4 until I thought I had enough ppt, so I don't know if this can be taken any further. When the latter portions were being added, some white substance was forming in the soln that immediately redissolved (?). Then I made the following heating setup: Two layers of Al foil were stretched on a frame and placed over a gas burner. I placed a glass "crucible" in the center of the foil that I made by cracking a No.19 ground glass stopper and using the hollow top. The vessel was filled half-way with sludge left after decanting the soln from the rxn. At first temp was kept low for the acid-water mix to boil off. After that it was raised somewhat, I don't know the exact temps, I didn't insert the probe because of the H2SO4 vapours. (In the meantime I tried to wash the remaining sludge with acetone. It reacted, a lot of carbon and Cr2O3 was produced.) The CrO3 formed a layer in the upper section of the container. After about 20mins the liquid portion in the bottom started to turn green (dunno why the Cr gets reduced), so I turned off the heat and allowed to cool. (Btw if a small bit of the sludge was placed on the hot foil directly, if fumed a lot and turned green/yellow. The resulting mass reacted slowly with EtOH, turning completely green. When this green substance was heated to a high temp, it formed light brown ashes.) Then I tested the CrO3 sludge, it was still wet with H2SO4. With EtOH the reaction was violent, a lot of Cr2O3 was produced, and I think it gave off acetaldehyde too, but no flame. Probably the CrO3 must be dried first and the alcohol dehydrated. With sulfur the reaction was slow. I will have to try some better drying techniques yet.

Found the lil tube. Now I'm sure that 5 years ago I removed the crystals, but now I had another crop. They are actually a mixture of purple (not red), white and green xx. (So some CrIII originated over the ages - really not a good way to make CrO3!) I tried the rxn with EtOH, it was very slow, but ultimately the stuff changed to Cr2O3. Obviously the loads of coprecipitated stuff make it useless. But this leads me to the idea that maybe, at reduced pressure, this mechanism could be used to remove the H2SO4 from the above rxn. The lid was PE, and it surely did not react. When I unscrewed it, there was some solution in the threads, and this could be wiped off. After washing the lid, there was no visible damage, and the mass of the crystals was comparatively large. The crystals were just attached to the lid where the solution contacted atmosphere, so - slow evaporation of H2SO4 i guess.

Regarding the rxns with argentite, I cannot tell you what rxns happen there (just guess), I can only tell how it worked for me. You would place a tiny drop on the surface of the sample. Now if it is pure silver, the drop will imediately turn red (normally the soln is kinda yellow-orange-brown). Silver dichromate forms. On argentite it would be dark red or brown at first, then gradually turn to a dark brown, with red ppt on the argentite. Solution very slowly turns green - S reduces the Cr. On silver it NEVER turns green. You would then wait a few seconds, then spit on it and rub it away with a paper handkerchief. On silver the stain would be dark and clean, but always the center would be a bit lighter than the dark edge. On argentite the stain would be a uniform dark colour, of a metallic lustre, with a little bit of some purple/pink stuff that is hard to rub away. If you stil weren't sure, you could do this: The samples were laid out in the hot sun and left a few minutes to react. After rubbing off the drop, the stain on silver would have three concentric parts: Dark on the outside, then a stripe of brilliant silver, and a somewhat grayish centre, where the silver turned spongy. With argentite the rxn would be SLOOOOOWWWWW, again the stain was rather dark and uniform, with the tiny red bits. With iron, the soln turns green, with tin and lead there is almost no reaction and no color change. Now don't ask me what is the chemical composition of all those stains http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I don't know if anyone else uses this method, I kinda made it up myself. There was no fellas doing this, no literature on the subject and no Internet.

Thanks for the info on chromylchloride. It looks promising, will have a look at it...

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 29, 2001).]

[deezs]

From your posts, I see, that you like chemical experiments. I have started a topic about "interesting experiments" in the miscellenaeous section. Nobody answered, so I haven't post more, but if you are interested, we could continue the topic.
My favourite experimental sites:

http://www.chem.leeds.ac.uk/delights/texts/

http://www.uni-ulm.de/uni/fak/natwis/sroel/exp/archiv.html
(in german)

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[FadeToBlackened]

Found something interesting while reading a 'safety card' for chromyl chloride.
"Dissolves chromium trioxide, yielding a powerful oxidant."
Would this yield a more violent reaction with EtOH or something?

[deezs]

Lagen!
I have ran out from K2Cr2O7, so If you have some CrO3, and planning to make some CrO2Cl2, you could try it, if it could be separated from sulphuric acid this way. With alcohol, it will surely react, but with other organic compounds... I don't know. An interesting question.

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

[Lagen]

If I got it right, you mean separating the CrO3 from H2SO4. I'll try and let you know, but I have absolutely no idea what the CrO3 will do with the other reactants, and whether it will distill over (!). I think it won't, after all it doesn't boil, just decompose. It would have to form some weird azeotrope to distil. Will just try.

Oh, and I don't like to see fellow pyros running out of a chemical, while I'm drowning in it. If you wanted to waste some more time with it, I could transfer some of the blood of my industry http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But I can see that you're heading to the university, so I fully understand your point. Just in case, let me know.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited July 30, 2001).]

[Lagen]

Well I guess I messed up. I didn't even get to the point of trying the distillation with CrO3, because I obviously didn't get chromyl chloride. I made a jointed distillation setup (using only a No.14 test tube as distillation flask) & put in 1g NaCl, 3g K2Cr2O7 and a bit H2SO4 to soak it. It did bubble, and some yellow gas evolved, but just to fill the tube. I had to heat it rather hard, and the mixture boiled peacefully. Some red liquid appeared, but this just refluxed in the tube! I feared increasing the temperature, as it was damn hot already. I got only about 1/2ml of a yellow liquid, which did not react violently with anything. It dissolved CrO3, but without effect. Then I put some wet CrO3 crystals on a paper towel soaked in EtOH, for comparison, and it fizzled nicely. So something is wrong here, maybe next time I'll try to make sure the NaCl and H2SO4 are thoroughly dried first. I sure believe you deezs, about the cleanup, the residue even LOOKS like hard to remove!

[Lagen]

OK guys, some better results at last. I did the distillation in the same manner as above, except that I made sure everything was free of water. I made the NaCl for this purpose by HCl+Na2CO3 so this was generated as a very fine ppt, and I baked it in the oven. I baked the still parts too. This time it frothed a lot, and I got a bit of a red liquid. When dropped on a towel soaked in EtOH, at the instant the drop touched it there was a 20cm flame! Now I call this an oxidizer! On paper it just produced a burnt mark, but no flame. I then dissolved some CrO3 in it, it dissolved only partially. When dropped on paper, the paper turned brown then black, and some fizzling and crackling was heard, but still no flame. Maybe sometime i'll try again with a larger batch of it. It would be fine if the mixture could be distilled under the boiling point of H2SO4. And maybe the residual H2SO4 will not affect its oxidizing properties, that could be a good workaround.

[deezs]

Congratulation to your results, Lagen!
But the great flame was due to the great amount of alcohol. The chromil-chloride just ignited the paper towel.
I think you had better to be more careful with trying a new reaction. First time never use more than a drop from the chemicals. Even if it is a high explosive, you don't risk an injury this way. Never trust any recipe from books, or from forum members.
Try everything in a small quantity first. If you know the reaction, you can control it. I know, what I say. I make dangerous chemical experiments for about 4 years now, but I had no accident. Trying to heat a flammable stuff in your kitchen, or using great excess of alcohol, is too dangerous. I say this, just because I see from your posts, that you are good in theoretical chemistry, but a bit unguarded. Be more careful!
But I don't want to continue the "Sermon on the Mount".
Nice to light some alcohol with this stuff, but we need more fun, aren't we?
I have 2 ideas:
1. I think a reliable chemical ignitor could be made from chromil chloride and alcohol. Just simply solder the CrO2Cl2 it into an ampoule, and put into a glass bottle, filled with alcohol.
2. I've tried to react the chromil chloride with benzene too. I saw nothing, I think it just dissolved. You could try to ignite this mixture. Perhaps it is explosive.? I dunno.
Thank you for the offer! It's good to know, that there are so helpful people among us. Thanx!
I will be hanging here for a while, but I don't know, if we meet later. I give my address here. Write, if you have any interesting topic to discuss.

deezs@freemail.hu

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 31, 2001).]

[Lagen]

I guess that from a couple of my last posts I look like a stupid jerk, who loves to make big fires in his home. Let me say that I'm on my own and am responsible for every material damage as well as my health and life. I know a couple of people who fucked up their lives with stupid accidents. I know what it is like, when an elderly, reasonable man, who can barely recognize larger objects at 0.5m, has to admit that he played with some lame acid mixture when he was a child. That really makes you look like an idiot for the rest of your life.

Anyway, back to the topic. Well I wouldn't start this thread if these substances didn't have some good use in pyrotechny. Personally I think that this combination has some very good qualities. I know that the *big fire* was caused by a lot of fuel. I rather wanted to point out, that the ignition was instant and reliable. Regarding the ignitor idea ... looks like a great excess of ethanol! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif With some smaller proportions, you could create a convenient fire starter, and if you found some reliable means of cracking the ampoule on impact, you could make it into a Molotov cocktail far superior to the traditional sulfuric acid-chlorate designs. Maybe now it's time for us to experiment with some different fuels/mixes. Yes, CrO2Cl2 dissolves in benzene, and in carbon tet and chloroform as well.

Other uses I can think of: Ignition mixes for delayed detonators - the kind that has been discussed here, where the acid corrodes some retaining wire and then a firing pin breaks a separator to mix the components. If we found a suitable reducing agent that would react explosively with CrO2Cl2/CrO3 then maybe this could be used right next to a primary explosive in a detonator. It's also possible to build a position sensitive ignition system, again with some mechanical element piercing a separator. The possibilities are endless.

Deezs, I will mail you with some ideas today, but I must consider the various possibilities so it may take a while.

[Lagen]

Warning: Untried primary explosive recipe from an unknown source!

Preparation of Triamine Chrome Tetroxide:
Materials: CrO3, H2O2, NH4OH
Procedure: Prepare a 10% aqueous solution of ammonia (25ml) and a 50% aqueous solution of CrO3 (5ml). Mix these solutions and cool to 0°C. Add 5ml of 30% H2O2 drop by drop. Let the mixture stand in the ice bath for an hour. Crystals of ammonium dichromate will appear. Heat the mixture to 50°C, maintain the temperature until the evolution of gases had stopped and the salt had fully dissolved. Upon cooling, triamine chrome tetroxide will crystallize. Filter out the crystals, squeeze off the excess liquid and wash with ether. Dry over KOH in a desiccator. Yield approx. 0.3g. Partially decomposes in water. Explodes on strong heating (approx. at 170°C). Edit/Note: Maybe this is nonsensical/wrong/dangerous, any comments welcome!

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 01, 2001).]

[FadeToBlackened]

When CrO3 or CrO2Cl2 react with alcohol, what is released? Are there fumes of hexavalent chromium released, or are they transformed into some Cr (III) compound?

[Lagen]

The way this works is reduction of Cr VI->III. Chromium only rarely occurs in IV or V. In the reactions I have seen, everything has been reduced to Cr2O3 (beautiful green color). You could have something dispersed due to overheating, but this should be negligible.

[deezs]

"unknown source" What does it mean? A friend, a post somewhere on the net, or what?

Need a reducing agent?
1. Try hidrazine! Ok I know, that you haven't, but I have a recipe, how to make hidrazine sulphate. That is a bit safer to handle. If you are interested, I can calculate the needed amoutns of the chemicals (NH4OH, NaOCl, Cl2, H2SO4). For good yield you will need a few grams of glue. That kind, which is made from animals.
2. ascorbic acid
3. formaldehyde (HCHO) solution, or paraformaldehyde (you know, the white solid, on the wall of the formaldehyde bottle)
4. cc.HCOOH
5. fine Zn powder
need more? Perhaps later...

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[Lagen]

The recipe: I found it on a Russian site (BSVi (http://www.geocities.com/spxors/RECEPT/tetra.htm)) and they didn't state any references. Somehow I don't trust it's correct (at least the name of the chemical - peroxochromate would make more sense to me, but who knows). And some other Russian people on this forum keep warning everyone about BSVi's "recipes". I have myself found some mistakes therein.
Hydrazine: I have some recipes for hydrazine sulphate - the kind from the "CIA" manuals, but I am really, really scared of hydrazine and have read that the sulfate is a nasty, toxic, carcinogenic shit as well. Any idea how much dangerous it actually is?
Formaldehyde: I have some solution here, but I never thought it could produce an explosive reaction because of all the water. I have never had any paraformaldehyde in my bottles. The labels say "stabilized with 15% methanol", could that make a difference?
Thanks for the tips! I think I will go with the Zn powder.

Edit: Deezs, I'm having problems trying to email you. The messages keep coming back with some weird error (not 'No such user here'). I didn't put any keywords, like 'dichromate' in them, or anything incriminating - I'm not that stupid - just told you that you should install PGP before we exchange any information. Now there are 3 possibilities:
1) There's some technical problem with your mailbox. You would have probably noticed that.
2) Your mailbox is being watched, perhaps because the address appeared here.
3) Someone doesn't like that idea.

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 03, 2001).]

[deezs]

Your formaldehyde solution is not the same, as mine. I don't know, if any stabilizator would be in mine, but sure, that it's concentration was 40%, when I've bought it.
I agree with you, the lot of water will reduce the violence of the reaction.
I had an other idea: ascorbic acid, dissolved in alcohol. There's just one problem: it not dissolves in alcohol too well. But you could try it.

I had no problem with this mail server yet. I made an other adress there. Try this:
vnprkc@freemail.hu
What is pgp? I don't know anything about it.
I'm not scared from the police or any agencies. (by the way: If an agent reads this, I have a message for him: baszd meg a kurva pallottseggu nenikedet te fasszopo barom allat! Oh, you can't imagine, how badly can a hungarian swear. Unfortunatelly, it is impossible to translate it.)
Here, in Hungary, there was a young "chemist", who blowed off his hand with AP. He colud make the judge belive, that he wanted to make a new kind of plastic in his lab. He was found inocent. There's no proof for I have ever made any explosive. Yes, I have a ton of chemicals, but that is not enough evidence.
I don't speak russian. There is a russian chemist, Rusl, who started the topic "luminous solution". I haven't seen him on the forum since than, but we wrote to each other a few times. I will ask him to visit that page, and tell his opinions.
About hidrazine: I don't think it could be so dangerous. Of course I mean just small quantities. In the topic "hydrazine" Mr Cool talked about the safety precautions, what he would make. I think it shows, that most forum members ar much more scared about getting cancer, than blowing off a hand. If you avoid ANY contact, there's no problem. Benzene, antracene and the compounds containing Cr are the bugaboos. But they are just chemicals, like the NaCl, or picric acid. If you know ALL properties of them, you can avoid all the injuries.


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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[FadeToBlackened]

avoiding ANY contact.. that would require a lot of equipment..Hydrazine is very volatile, so you would need breathing protection. The way i see it, thats like trying to work with acetone without smelling it. hehe

[deezs]

Here is an appeal to ban an other dangerous chemical. What do you think about it?


The Invisible Killer

DHMO is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of it do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

-is the major component of acid rain.
contributes to the "greenhouse effect."
-may cause severe burns.
-contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
-accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
-may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
-has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions!

Quantities of DHMO have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.

DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the Midwest, and recently California.

Despite the danger, DHMO is often used:

as an industrial solvent and coolant.
in nuclear power plants.
in the production of Styrofoam.
as a fire retardant.
in many forms of cruel animal research.
in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products.

Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!

The Horror Must Be Stopped!

The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use.

It's Not Too Late!

Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you and others throughout the world.


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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[FadeToBlackened]

DHMO = Dihydrogen monoxide http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif water hehe.

[Lagen]

PGP was originally an encryption program. Nowadays it's a set of security utilities (which are not free) or freeware security utilities (which are useless), so I (and most other people) use it just as an encryption utility. It is said to be pretty safe (and PGP stands for "Pretty Good Privacy"). You can download the freeware version from www.pgp.com, (http://www.pgp.com) it's about 7.5 MB. Don't be fooled by the "Intruders detection" feature, it is not functional in the freeware version.

I think it's not a big problem if the pigs read what we write here, because it could hardly be used as evidence. But if we arrange some transfer/handover/whatever, and get caught, they will find out our identity. I am far from being as disciplined as you! Of course I have all sensitive stuff aside from my home (the official address), and almost no-one knows where I am based now. Those who know would not tell. But then I may get followed or something, and even if I manage to destroy all evidence, I won't be able to work as effectively ever again! Therefore I'm careful when it comes to any links to real places, real times, real people! This is how it works in my country: 1) The pigs find out about you - for example you post something in a forum under some identity which gets on the list. 2) They find out who you are - they make the site administrator and ISP cooperate. 3) They wait... until there's a reason to "visit" you - If someone blows his hand off with HMTD or something, and this incident happens "near" your home, it's more than sufficient. 4) They search your place, even without you knowing, and if they find an explosive (even a few grams), or even related nonexplosive items (casings, detonator parts, firing set) you ARE in trouble. Not because of the incident, but because of what they found. They use the same methods as the communist police (after all they are the same people) and from what I've heard, will make you tell things you even don't know. The judges are usually biased against the suspect. And every such case is made into a great hummbug in the papers, which "makes up" for their inability (or unwillingness) to fight the BIG crime.

Yeah Rusl got deleted right away, maybe that pissed him off.

Regarding DHMO: I fully agree, I know some people who abuse dihydrogen monoxide for the manufacture and testing of various very dangerous explosives!

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 05, 2001).]

[deezs]

Lagen! I couldn't understand this sentence:
"I am far from being as disciplined as you!"
What did you wanted to say with this?

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[Lagen]

I think you said something like "Of course I have a ton of chemicals, but that's no evidence..." - so no explosives at home, I guess. I am far from being so disciplined to make stuff only as needed and shoot it right away, or store somewhere in a cache in the woods.

[fightclub]

Hey Lagen: I have interest in that strange primary, sorry no specific explosive properties found, but I did find this in Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology (1980) Vol. 7(?):

"The peroxy compound, CrO4·3 NH3 [CAS: 7168-85-3] is obtained by warming an ammonicial ammonium perchromate solution followed by cooling. Structural data shows that the three NH3 molecules and two peroxide ions are coordinated to Cr(IV)."

[Lagen]

Wow! Fightclub, thanks for the info! I have already lost all hope to find any mention of it in the literature. So, after all, the name was not that nonsensical... Btw I have tried the recipe, and it works. Haven't done too much extensive measurements, though, the yield was very, very low. Thanks again!