Nitroguanidine, properties?

[EventHorizon]

I dreamed a 96.2% yeild. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Mega's site states that its comparable to TNT, but I'm wondering more specifics, like rel. eff., initiation required(.6g HMTD, .4g MF... minimums in a 9mm column say?), etc. I haven't seen much posted here about this material, yet if it is just as good as say TNT.....its WAY easier.

Thanks all.

[Hex]

Urbanski has the VoD at 5460 at density=1.0, and 2640 at d=1.45 in 27mm diameter pipes. Strikes me that if heavily primed, in wider pipes, Nitrogaunidine at d=1.45 would be very quick indeed...

[EventHorizon]

Thanks Hex.
Mega's site lists the v.det at 7650m/s@1.5g/cc. Is that closer to what would be expected in a larger diameter container w/ strong initiation?

My next REM (rapid eye movement http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif ) project is MHN. I hope that thread gets back on track as to whether the H2SO4/NH4NO3 process works, yeilds, etc.

[fightclub]

Some properties of NQ from Encyclopedia of Chem .Technology:

MW: 104
color: white
crystal density: 1.72 g/cm^3
crystal form: ortho-rhombic
melting point: 245°C(dec)
solubility in water at 20°C: 0.4g/100g
oxygen balance, % to CO2: -31
heat of formation: 0.950 kJ/g
heat of combustion: 8.35 kJ/g
heat of detonation: 3.01 kJ/g
gas volume: 1,077 cm^3/g @ STP
collision constant: 7.5 log.sub.10.sub./S
detonation velocity: 8.16 km/s @ D. 1.72g/cc
detonation pressure: 27.3 GPa @ D. 1.78g/cc
explosion temperature (at 5 s): 275°C (dec)
effect of prolonged storage: negligible
relative impact test value: 200% of TNT
friction pendulum: no explosion
performance, % of TNT:
lead block: 100
ballistic mortar: 105
sand test: 75
plate dent test: 95

NP, Event, almost forgot:

activation energy: 87.5 kJ/mol

[This message has been edited by fightclub (edited August 09, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

Thanks!

[the freshmaker]

From page 375-393 in Davis' book, there is alot of very good information on Guanidine Nitrate, Nitro Guanidine and Nitroso Guanidine.

[EventHorizon]

IIRC Davis' book doesn't give the vdet, min. initiation charge, etc. All things I was looking for. Its does however go into lots of other detail and has a nice portions of text dedicated to nitroguanidine.

As a side note, and hopefully in keeping with what I feel this forum likes, I'll pose another question relating to this substance. Say, and purely theoretical of course, someone botched previous attempts to make nitroguanidine by not letting the guanidine nitrate hydrolyse long enough, could the product formed be re-hydrolysed properly to obtain the desired product?

[Mr Cool]

Has anyone here made the nitrosoguanidine? It sounds very simple to make, and although not very powerful it could be fun. A lot more storage stable than the peroxides. Check out Mega's page for more info.
What method are you using to make your guanidine? I can't be bothered with the CaCO3 + NH3+ furnace etc etc method. Are there any commercial sources?

[EventHorizon]

I got my guanidine nitrate from a well know online supplier.

So far all of my dreams have not been plesant ones. My nitroguanidine didn't go off. 3g in a 3/8 plastic tube pressed to ~1g/cm³ with a 2g MF cap on top did not initiate it. Then an ~½g of MF on 2g of nitroguanidine in a 3/8 tube did not detonate either. Even a small pile stuck with a hammer on an anvil didn't go... http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

I have no clue where in all of my procedures I go wrong. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Edit: although I guess this could be the reason. *relative impact test value: 200% of TNT* I'm starting to really think that all my secondaries I've dreamed of require much better initiation than HMTD and/or MF. I have 27g of TNT left from a nice dream a while back, but it didn't go off either. I KNOW its TNT, even crystalized it from ethanol and it melts and is castable with 80C water.

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited August 12, 2001).]

[Microtek]

If You are going to test impact sensitivity with a manual hammer ( ie not a drop hammer ), it is a good idea to put the explosive in a "folding" of aluminium foil.
This prevents the tendency of powders to be scattered by the hammer-blows, or to stick to the hammer.
I don't think You will be able to initiate TNT in this manner though...

[Mr Cool]

What did you buy it as - fertiliser, chemical reagent or ?

[EventHorizon]

Apparently, something must work. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

A friend told me that it was 26g initiated via 1g MHN. ~2' diameter hole and 1' deep, it was HARD soil as you can see the stake that made the hole in the pic only has mud on it about 3" deep. He said that it was old product that he'd made a long time ago, but could never get to go off, it only need the right kind of persuasion. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

http://www24.brinkster.com/eventhorizon308/n-guanidine.jpg



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-nothing here until I can find another that I like :(-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[Microtek]

About the MHN method with H2SO4/NH4NO3: Don't worry it works! It doesn't matter that the acid slurry may freeze; just knead the mannitol into it. Yields are about 0.8 g MHN per 1.0 g mannitol.
When testing a new explosive, try using it as a final stage of a compound detonator,
so that you have first a primary such as HMTD, then a base such as MHN and then finally the new explosive in a 20-30 mm long coloumn. This will give much more reliable initiation than a separate blasting cap.

PS. When making MHN, it is better to use ordinary technical grade HNO3 than the AN/H2SO4 method as you can dissolve the mannitol in it before you add the sulfuric, giving a more fully nitrated mix.

[EventHorizon]

I'm not sure I follow you Microtek.
[EDIT] I reread your post. My friend has tried that method before(.3g hmtd>.3g MHN>2g nitroguanidine) but couldn't tell if the product detonated, probably because of the small amount. .8g MHN from 1g mannitol sucks, using distilled HNO3 yeilds were 1.8-2g MHN per 1g mannitol

The "Something must work." was about the nitroguanidine as it wouldn't detonate via 2g MF or 2g HMTD (Davis' book states that it should detonate under the influence of 1.5g MF) and "my friend" thought that it was because he messed up the reaction. There isn't much to go wrong with the reaction in the first place, except that in the first attempts the solution of guanidine nitrate and H2SO4 wasn't allowed to sit till the solution was clear. This was made quite some time ago and my friend kept the product for when he was able to make a better base for the caps (just in case all it needed was a little better kick in the ass). All products from several attempts of makeing nitroguanidine do detonate under the influence of at least .5g MHN. The caps were .5g MHN initiated by .3g HMTD (for the first test of 13g), and 1g MHN initiated by .35g HMTD. The only difference I see from whether the solution is allowed to sit until its clear is in the final product. Immediately drowning and filtering (then dissolving in boiling water) produces a VERY fluffy mass while allowing it to sit until its clear then drowning/filtering/boiling with water you get denser needle crystals, but this could be just the way the final solutions cooled.

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-nothing here until I can find another that I like http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif-
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited September 24, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

Hex-

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Urbanski has the VoD at 5460 at density=1.0, and 2640 at d=1.45 in 27mm diameter pipes.

SNIP
</font>
I reread over these posts and what was d=1.45 supposed to be? "2"640 doesn't seem right. Is is 7640, as that looks like it would fall in line with 7650@1.5g/cc.


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-The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.- Albert Einstein

PGP ID 0x147CEF54


[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited October 02, 2001).]

[Hex]

Those are the figures in Urbanski. D=1.45 is density=1.45g/cc. Either:
It's a misprint/mistake in Urbanski (not rare - it has HMX as less powerful than RDX in one edition)
or:
NGuanidine is "dead pressed" at high density, and these samples were insufficiently primed.

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited October 03, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

I'm familar with the standard units of density, sorry for not making my questions clearer.

I was wondering if it was a misprint because if it was 76xx rather than 26xx at 1.45 g/cc then that would be similar to the information on Mega's site of 76xx m/s at 1.5g/cc (unless Mega made a mistake http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/eek.gif) EDIT {http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/eek.gif oops! Mega has it as density of 1.5g/cc and VoD of 7650m/s, not VOD of 7650m/s @ 1.5g/cc, mucho appologies} Davis' book doesn't indicate that nitroquanidine becomes dead pressed. There is also a statement to the effect that n-guanidine compressed to 100 kg/cc² gave similar pressures of detonation to TNT @ 1000 kg/cc² at densities of loading from .13 to .30 g/cc.

If anyone else has further information on this, please post here.

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-The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.- Albert Einstein

PGP ID 0x147CEF54


[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited October 03, 2001).]

[Dr_Pind]

I'we long been looking for an explosive with better properties than urea nitrate. nitro guanidine (nGU) sounds very promising, but the synthesis from guanidine nitrate and sulfuric acid doesn't appeal to me.
Yesterday, however, I stumbled upon a possible way of synthesising nGU. On page 'G155' in PATR 2700 vol.6 under "plant preparation 2nd. method). It states:

"By fusing equimolecular quantities
of urea and AN:
H2N.C0.NH2 +NH4N03 -> H2N.C(:NH).NH.N02 + 2H20,
and then recrystallizing the product from boiling
w (yield about 92%)"

It almost looks to simple, but still the equation adds up. This would indeed be a simpler, and cheaper way to go, instead of first making nitro guanidine from hard to get chemicals, and then dehydrating it to get the product.

I haven't been able to find any other litterature telling about this process. Has anyone else got any info on this?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

It is very easy to use the H2SO4 -> Guanidine nitrate method which can yield both the beta and alpha materials. Since it was such a cool explosive it was often used for that very property. but it's resistance to impact initiation is greater than ammonium picrate so it was used as a shell filler in WWI.

It's VoD is about 5200mps but can be made to shoot faster. It is tough fibrous needles that don't pack down very well. That's it chief issue. It is difficult to increase it's density. However it's much less toxic than TNT and less reactive than PA. It has been used in quite a few propellants for 50 cal and larger weapons especially triple base powder for AAA weapons or cannon on aircraft.

[Dr_Pind]

No offence, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the synthesis in question. I have plenty of sources to supply me with the above data, but I have nothing on the synthesis. I saw it mentioned briefly on the internet as the U/AN method:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA075338

This route of synthesis would be very beneficial to the roguesci community, so if you have any info in the process itself, or links/sources about it, please contribute.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

No offense at all - it's one of the simplest synth's I can think of if you have Guanidine Nitrate (H2SO4->GN equal molar amounts most likely). If you don't have Guanidine Nitrate available and only guanidine, that a different story.

I'll deal with round numbers. Start w/ 900gr of 98% H2SO4 bring to 0 C: slowly add 120gr guanidine (small portions) maintain at 0 C. After addition add slowly 184 gr (70%) HNO3 over an hour's period. Then pour entire mixture into 1 kg crushed ice - Allow nitration to reach rm and wash w/ 1000ml distilled water (perhaps use anti-acid, etc) - allow precipitate to dry. It's a VERY simple nitration. Guanidine lends itself to nitration. It's the final product that's an issue :-)

[Dr_Pind]

I have neither guanidine nitrate, nor guanidine in any form. The only interest i have in nitroguanidine is the above mentioned synthesis, if it works, that is. Since the chemicals needed are so easily acquired, and the process seemingly simple it is of great interest to me, and probably to others. Due to recent foiled terror attacks in my country, a lot of suspicion has been made, and a lot of chemicals are becomming regulated. So please, don't post any answers, unless it is relevant to this 'new' synthesis. Thanks.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to flame anyone:), it's just that data about the usual ways arround the manufacture of nGU are discussed elsewhere; but nothing is mentioned about this potentially cheap, "easy" synthesis, using OTC fertilizer chemicals. Getting rid of the H2SO4 step would also be very convenient.

[Enkidu]

US5041662 Process for the production of guanidine nitrate from urea and ammonium nitrate (http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5041662&F=0)

I'm sure that there are more patents out there.

Note that nitroguanidine and guanidine nitrate are not one in the same.

[Dr_Pind]

I have read the above patent in the guanidine nitrate thread, but thanks anyways. Has anyone got any idea about the reactions involved? I thought about the NH4NO3 splitting up into the NH3 + HNO3. The NH3 reacting with the CO group of the urea, forming C(:NH) and H2O, and the HNO3 with the NH2 group of the urea, forming NH.N02 and H2O. Or maby it forms NH2NO2 with other intermediate reactions. Any ideas?
Just think about 7000+ m/s explosive from urea and AN.. I want it :)