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Explosives Chemist
April 5th, 2003, 04:47 AM
Hi
Yesterday I made a plastickexplosives with 85% PETN and 15%PIB.
I mixed PIB with gas. It was a nice sauce. Then I added the PETN with acetone. When the gas and acetone was evaporate, i used it. It was great.

xyz
April 5th, 2003, 05:35 AM
Err... ...new thread on your first post? I advise you read the rules a few times before making any other mistakes.

What did you use to detonate it? How much of it did you set off?

<small>[ April 05, 2003, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

stanfield
April 5th, 2003, 05:48 AM
too much polymer, you killed the VoD...

Kriegsminister
April 5th, 2003, 05:59 AM
A little bit more information and maybe some pictures would be nice.
Otherwise your post is little helpful or informative and definitely not worth reading.
Only telling us, in three amazing lines, that you made plastic explosives and detonated it seems a bit poor and boring to me.

Anthony
April 5th, 2003, 09:28 AM
You couldn't have posted this in one of the existing threads about plastic explosives?

Your post really is of little help, the only thing I can of that would have made it helpful, was if you'd found a good source of OTC PIB.

kingspaz
April 5th, 2003, 06:14 PM
anthony, just wondering but shouldn't this be closed?!

knowledgehungry
April 5th, 2003, 07:08 PM
I agree. This is merely some newb bragging about making an explosive, not even good bragging, no pics no amounts. Everyone knows that you can use PIB with PETN or other crystalline HES. Nothing new or useful lock away. As anthony said the only thing that might be useful is if an OTC source of PIB was found or an OTC source of pentaerythritol :D .

darkdontay
April 5th, 2003, 07:16 PM
Ummm... Think we should be nice and give him some HED?....
Or are we being more selective with how gets some great HED.

Anthony
April 5th, 2003, 08:27 PM
I was either giving him a chance to come back and justify his post, or I'm simply getting forgetful in my "old" age.

Earlier, I was sitting at the computer and thought "ah yes, I meant to do *that*". A few minutes later, I found myself thinking "I'm sure I was supposed to do something... *frown*". A few more minutes later, I remembered. I repeated this forget/remember cycle approximately 10 times, and I've just realised that I still didn't do what I intended to!

I'm rambling too, I'm definitely going senile! Marbles? Good riddance!

bonnsgeo
April 20th, 2003, 06:34 AM
hi everybody.

the new "style" of forum is cool :)



I ve found a *pdf file and i read that a pbx (of the WW 2) was made with petn, latex and adipate. But there is no percentage written on this file.

Do you have anything about that ?

thx.

bye

mongo blongo
April 20th, 2003, 11:45 AM
Well it is *lightly* that they used around 90% PETN and maybe 8%latex with 2% adipate. That is just an educated guess. Do you know the name of the composition?

bonnsgeo
April 20th, 2003, 12:43 PM
no there is no name.

i sent u the *.pdf file.

i have read too that polystyrene + adipate could be a great plasticizer mixture for petn or rdx ...

bye

mongo blongo
April 20th, 2003, 02:07 PM
hmmmm. Some of the PBX compositions described in the PDF will not be moldable and are simply to bind the explosive together. The latex one looks like it was intended to be moldable so the composition I mentioned earlier shouldn't be that far off. I think you will just have to experiment. I would advise keeping the PETN to at least 90% all the way and try changing the binding percentages. Since the adipate is the plasticizer and the latex is the binder I would add more adipate (with less latex) if it's too hard and if it's too soft then less adipate and more latex. It should all dissolve in petrol so I would use that for the solvent.

bonnsgeo
April 20th, 2003, 02:15 PM
ok i ll try with latex. i dont know really where i can buy it but i know its not hard to find !

i actually test a mix of acetone + polystyrene + adipate.
when the acetone will be completely evaporated i hope that polystyrene will stay soft because of adiapte.
i ll post my results.
bye

mongo blongo
April 20th, 2003, 05:33 PM
I would advise not to use acetone. It will dissolve the RDX or PETN and when it's drying, large crystals could form and will be very sensitive.

bonnsgeo
April 20th, 2003, 06:51 PM
are u sure ?
if i stir the mixture while its drying, maybe i will "destroy" big crystals ..?

i ll try with acetone and i ll see :)

bye

Mr Cool
April 20th, 2003, 07:33 PM
Why not try with petrol instead? Then you will avoid any potential problems with large crystals forming.

bonnsgeo
April 21st, 2003, 01:49 PM
...huh .. petrol dissolve polystyrene ? (i have nt tried ..maybe u are right :D )

in all case my mix of polystyrene + adipate is wonderful.
it still sticky and "pasty" (not sure of this word = "like paste") after 12 hours ! i put it on my window ! there is lot of sun ! temperature is hot ! but polystyrene is absolutely not hard ! (and i m sure there no more acetone in it !)

i hope it will stay like this.
tomorow i l ltry to plasticize some petn with this method.

bye
:rolleyes:

Mr Cool
April 21st, 2003, 02:05 PM
Petrol doesn't really dissolve polystyrene, but it does make it into a sticky blob (ACB napalm) into which you could knead your HE.
The plasticising mixture you have sounds good, let us know what it's like in a few days so we know if it hardens or not. If it doesn't it would be great!

bonnsgeo
April 21st, 2003, 02:18 PM
ok i ll try with petrol too.
but maybe it will be harder to mix correctly with adipate.

i found this method of plasticize HE in patent 5,009,728.
but in this they use styrene acrylate (or vinyl acetate or lot of different products) with polystyrene and adipate.

but i have no idea how to get vinyl acetate etc ...
so maybe it ll work with only polystyrene :)
bye

EDIT: if u want the patent (its better because u speak better english than me so maybe u could understand more easily how it works u can email me: bonnsgeo@yahoo.fr)

bonnsgeo
April 30th, 2003, 06:53 AM
polystyrene is definitively not a good plasticizer.

I read that some PBX use Viton as binder (and only viton ! nothing else !) and i have found a source of Viton.

somebody know what type of viton i must use ?

thx.
:D

cutefix
April 30th, 2003, 08:07 PM
The original paper using fluorocarbon polymer in plastic bonded explosive uses a combination of teflon and viton.
It uses Viton A , a copolymer of vinylidene fluoride and
Hexafluoropropylene.
Check the Uspatent 4,098,625 ‘ Explosive composition bonded with fluorocarbon polymers."

For more information about VITON see the Dupont website(www.dupont-dow.com/viton

Another VITON A based explosive called PBXN-5 consist of 95%HMX and 5% Viton A.

bonnsgeo
May 1st, 2003, 02:30 PM
ok thx.

And do you have any formation about the type of SBR in semtex ? :)

bye bye !

cutefix
May 3rd, 2003, 03:19 AM
There is scant information about the type of the SBR used;but it is just related to latex so it can behave in similar manner according to treatment,amount of plasticizer etc.
By looking at the simple specs of semtex you can deduce the amount of rubber you can incorporate is less if compared to C-4 which can had up to 9% binder (PIB) by removal of plasticizer but varying the viscosity of the polyisobutylene used.
Therefore the amount of binder is just sufficient to enable the explosive to have a stable structure.

Styrene butadiene rubber is just a form of synthetic rubber;generally is consist of random arrangement of 25% styrene and 75% butadiene .
These are the common specs.
http://www.romacindustries.com/htmpages/SUBMITTALS_2002/RUBBER/SBR_SUB.pdf
If you will see its usable temperature range and it is nearly the same as the having the lower and upper limit like PIB but in a different values.
But as a form of rubber it is soluble in common hydrocarbons.

Originally Semtex has the peculiar defect of oozing out during storage and it leaves tell tale wet spots which can arouse curiosity from the cops.
So how does it defers from the simple composition c type of plastic explosives that contains oils as part of the formulation and prone to leave grease spots as well.
C-4 is not prone to that.
But as its easier to improvise these semtex as the easier availability of PETN and cheaper as well than RDX.
Now if you will see semtex contains a formula like this:
Name Semtex H Semtex A
% PETN 49.8 94.3
% RDX 50.2 5.7
Dye Sudan I Sudan IV
Antioxidant N-phenyl-2- N--phenyl-2-
naphthylamine naphthylamine
Plasticizer n-octyl phthalate n-octyl phthalate
butyl citrate butyl citrate
Binder styrene-butadiene styrene-butadiene
rubber rubber
By looking at that you can see that there is not enough binder to make the explosive solidifiable to a moldable mass. Forget about the dye and anti oxidant if you do not want to age the explosive long enough before you use.

stanfield
May 3rd, 2003, 08:40 AM
Very interesting, I'll soon received SBR rubber with 15% styren. The only available here ! hope it'll work...
How do you know that semtex won't be modelable ? Is this not military's ratio ?

thanx...

bonnsgeo
May 3rd, 2003, 12:54 PM
cool .


Does anyone have the C4 manufacture patent ?

bye

EDIT: hmm ...the acetone we buy in shop...is it pure acetone ? else what concentration is it ?

stanfield
May 3rd, 2003, 05:51 PM
yeah, it's like 99.99%+ purity ! don't worry about that...

Einsteinium
May 3rd, 2003, 06:13 PM
I hope you're joking stanfield, hardware store acetone is nowhere near 99,99% pure, more like 96-98%. This is an industrial grade of acetone, very useful for many purposes but it's no metal-trace analysis grade...

bonnsgeo
May 3rd, 2003, 06:22 PM
ok. thx.

Nobody have the c4 patent (if it exists !) ?

bye

Cyclonite
May 3rd, 2003, 07:00 PM
I dont know of a patent number. If its helpfull C-4 is composed of 93%RDX and 7%Plasticizer (Military Ratio)

cutefix
May 3rd, 2003, 08:23 PM
"Very interesting, I'll soon received SBR rubber with 15% styren. The only available here ! hope it'll work...
How do you know that semtex won't be modelable ? Is this not military's ratio ?"
Oh , I got an error on that (it is sometimes difficult to read the fine words that you type in this new platform ,unlike before).What i mean actually was it does not really need much of this rubber to make a moldable composiition. This is in contrast to C-4 which requires a higher amount of binder to make it moldable.
Indeed a littel binder can still make it a firm explosive but it will not be plastic enough like a putty.And in the absence of plasticizer oils it will need to be pressed to form firm explosive used in ordnance warheads.
But semtex with its little rubber content still contains plasticizers to make it moldable.
SEMTEX is a civilian dieveloped explosive which make Chechozlovakia famous.It was subsequently copied by east block miilitary and making variations in the formulations;hence making somehow semtex a legiimate military explosive in those countries during those times(IIRC, near the end of the cold war?).

"Does anyone have the C4 manufacture patent ? "

Now the current military issue of C- 4 although the actual recipe is a classified stuff and you cannot see any link or even open literature to its precise method ; the older ones done by Sam Wright(of Holston ordnance in Tenessee) in middle 1960's . It have relevant information with C-4 manufacture(pilot scale basis)using plasticizer and binder but the production method is obsolete nowadays,(it is not environmentally friendly procedure producing the large volumes of explosive contaminated waste water which was one of cause of water pollution in large scale ordnance manufacture )..
Except if these old formulations are made in some developing countries..This is the type of millitary C-4 used in the vietnam war era.
IIRC,Look at the patent#
3173817,3296041 for some ideas as well as the old patents linked to it that will descirbe the evolution of plastic bonded explosives in US.
But there are indicative information in the patent files that you can glean about the newer methods of making explosive moulding powder. That is how the currnet issue of C- 4 is manufactured. Have a look at Patent# 5,750,921 which is the same procedure in making new C-4.

bonnsgeo
May 4th, 2003, 05:41 AM
Thx cutefix !

In the patent 3,173,817 it's really curious because they use water (with the HE inside) then they add the binder,plasticizer,oil mixture.

What is the interest to make it in water ?
They lost lot plasticizer/binder mixture !
50grams of pib+seb+oil for 150 g of RDX (so 25% binder 75 % RDX) and at the end there is 10 % of binder !!!! they lost 15 % !! it s crazy !

In all case the example with RDX + pib + sebacate is clearly the c4 manufacture process.

thx

stanfield
May 4th, 2003, 06:55 AM
yeah, Einsteinium, I just wanted to say it's pure enough for what we do...

ok cutefix ! What are the effects of styrene in the SBR ? 15%, what does it mean ? extremely modelable ? 75% = hard like rock ? Thare isn't much information around the web about this SBR rubber.
But, maybe I'll have to buy 33Kg of that stuff. Yeah, the firm doesn'tsell 50/100/250g of that stuff... It doesn't really matter 'cause it's cheap like... huh... nail (the only comparison I've found !), yes, about 1,5€/Kg. but I would like to know if this stuff is fine for semtex ! If not, i'll have 33kg of that shit and I'll never use it !

thanx.:p

cutefix
May 5th, 2003, 04:55 AM
You should read carefully the recipe and the procedure and you will see that there is another 300 grams of RDX of different particle size.
Water is needed simply to disperse the ingredients properly so that the coating(binder) will form a uniform layer on the explosive particles during fast agitation at elevated temperature.The water is expelled in the filtering and drying process anyway.
Actually there is not much loss, as the RDX is insoluble water.The solvents are evaporated until a free flowing powder is formed which is then kneaded in a suitable high shear mixer to form a uniform plastic consistency.

Standfield why you will waste money in buying without having first testing in small scale.You do not need to make tons of semtex anyway.
There is some difference in the styrene –butadeine ratio in some products but I do not think it’s a big deal as what make this particular polymer harden is the curing process and the consistency is varied by the amount of plasticizing agent added.
You are not making rubber tyres here where you need large amount of rubber compound.
you need only alittle bit of rubber.
And you still need a plasiticizer to maintain its softness and pliability.
BTW SBR rubber is widely used in the industry

stanfield
May 5th, 2003, 06:43 AM
Yes, but I really have difficulties finding out a sample ! If no sample, I'll be obliged to buy in large quantities... don't worry, it's cheap but anyway, 33Kg, that's huge ! Maybe I could resell some to members who want it ?

bye !

bonnsgeo
May 8th, 2003, 02:21 PM
oops i did nt see the 300g rdx ... :D

i ll receive pure pib next week (i hope) i ll try the 2 ways: with water and without water and i ll post my results.


VoD: i read that a plastic explosive with latex exists. But stanfield explained me that the "liquid latex" solvent is maybe dangerous for the HE.
be careful.

bye

Mr Cool
May 8th, 2003, 04:06 PM
I'm pretty sure liquid latex has been discussed for this purpose already, search and ye will find.
I still say you can't go wrong with blu-tack binder/vaseline or other grease/oil. It's by far the best I've used.

mongo blongo
May 9th, 2003, 12:29 PM
Mr Cool- have you got any good ratios with the blu-tack binder for RDX yet? I still havn't tested it out, almost a year after thinking of it. :(

bonnsgeo
May 9th, 2003, 12:49 PM
As Microtek said to me: there is no ratio because every blu tack could be different.

you must experiment and find your own ratio. ;)

I tried with petn and i never found a good product ... but i really think my petn crystals was too big. ( i didnt recristallise it !! )
Its the same thing for your "pib" extracted from self amalgamating tape...it didnt work very well because of the size of petn... maybe ...
i ll retry.

bye

Mr Cool
May 9th, 2003, 02:47 PM
I don't have a set ratio that I follow, IIRC the last batch I made was 90% PETN, 4% blu-tack binder and 6% vaseline. If I can find my notes I'll be able to confirm/correct that, but I'm 90% sure that's what I used. It's not very sticky, and is quite firm, but soft enough to be moulded and shaped easily by hand. I've done a few experiments with replacing the vaseline with sorbitol nitrate, that works really good, but I don't have any ratios at all to give on that one because I didn't measure, the amount I made was too small to be able to get accurate %'s with my scales. Some of the PETN can be substituted with SN too, for an even softer, sticker, product.

bonnsgeo
May 9th, 2003, 03:16 PM
do u have an idea about the density you obtained with your plastic ?

bonnsgeo
May 19th, 2003, 12:34 PM
wow !

i finnally obtained pure pib from an US supplier !
i asked for an 1,000,000 MW but they sent me a "grade 550,000", so i dont really know what exact sort of pib i have.

In all case i tested 1.6% 10w40 motor oil + 2.2 % pib + 5.3 % dioctyl adipate (instead of sebacate).... it didnt work at all...BUT i did it with corn flour ! its really definitively not equivalent to petn.

i did that too:
0.4 g of pib + 0.6 g of adipate for 4 g of petn ... not so bad (half of the mixture is plastic, not the other part ... :confused: ) but i found better :

1 g of pib + 0.1g adipate + 0.1g oil 10w40 and 4.3 g of petn .... WONDERFUL !!! its really moldable ! it doesnt stick to fingers ! there is no powder on fingers ! its like chewing gum ! very cool ! but the density is always around 1.3 / 1.4 grams/cc (i ll try to press it when ill have time)

i ll try to make some pictures.

bye

:D

EDIT: now i have to reduce the pib rate to minimum and increase the density ...

mongo blongo
May 19th, 2003, 05:35 PM
Yea dude, you have to get that PETN to something around 90%.At the moment you got it at something like 80%.Sounds good though :)

bonnsgeo
May 20th, 2003, 07:37 AM
i think adipate is not important.

i ll try with 10% of pib only. maybe it could work.

bye

BLASTER
May 20th, 2003, 08:16 AM
I've tried plasticizing PETN with PIB extracted from selfamalgamaing tape. PIB was extracted by white gas, black rubber remains undissolved while PIB come into solution, which stay clear. 20% of PIB was OK, great plastic after gas evaporated, not sticky. But next days it was harder and harder as gas complete evaporated and after three days it stay very hard. So, plasticizers are neccessary.

bonnsgeo
May 20th, 2003, 03:17 PM
how did u obtain a clear solution with self amalgamating tape ?

for me its impossible ! there is always "black rubber", even if i filter ...

if you successfully made plastic with this fucking tape it interests me a lot !

BLASTER
May 20th, 2003, 06:28 PM
Before I tried, I'm not assumed that it could be clear after extraction. Tape in white gasoline not completely dissolve, because it contain some black synthetic rubber or something and only PIB dissolved. I've tested 10g of tape, let it stay two times with fresh gas at elevated temperature, then take out rest of tape, let it dry and final mass was 3.5g, some 75% of total tape mass should be PIB probably also with some plasticizer. Maybe you use wrong tape or solvent.

stanfield
May 21st, 2003, 05:48 AM
Yeah !
I juste received my Styren Butadiene Rubber ! 500g !
here is a photo :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stanfield/SBR15102.jpg

And here is the product specification. (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stanfield/certificate.jpg)

I'll try as soon as possible to make some homemade Semtex !

see ya !

bonnsgeo
May 21st, 2003, 06:16 AM
ok i ll try with tape like u said.

stan your sbr is more beautiful than my pib :)

is it sticky ? does it have "amalgamating" properties like pib ?

bye

stanfield
May 21st, 2003, 07:53 AM
No, it doesn't stick. It's like a resin which doesn't stick. :)

Argy
May 21st, 2003, 03:54 PM
Bonnsgeo, I read this on Kitchen Improved Explosives ;

C-4 contain 21g of PIB + 53g of adipate (or sebacate) + 16 grams of ten weight nondetergent motor oil.

but Deflatex (the equivalent of the C-4 but with PETN) contain 12g of PIB + 2.5g of adipate (or sebacate) + 2.5g of then weight nondetergent motor oil.

You should try this, for more informations ask me by mail or download the .pdf called "Kitchen_Complete"

rooster
May 21st, 2003, 05:51 PM
I really believe you got this wrong. Are you sure that the two recipies make the same amount plastic explosive?

Argy
May 21st, 2003, 07:08 PM
No C-4 recipie use 910 g of RDX Deflatex recipie use 200g of PETN but i only posted it for the ratios ;p

bonnsgeo
July 26th, 2003, 09:24 AM
hi !

I just want to post some pictures of my "c4".

what i mixed:
9.00 g of petn
1.40g of polyisobutylene (MW 1 000 000)
0.90 g of bis ethyl exhyl adipate
and some motor oil 15w40 (maybe around 0.1g , i didnt scale oil)

http://rdxmaster.free.fr/1.jpg
http://rdxmaster.free.fr/2.jpg
http://rdxmaster.free.fr/3.avi (a short movie to show how it is "plastic")

knowledgehungry
July 26th, 2003, 01:38 PM
Your Styren Butadiene Rubber looks like a rice krispy treat ahahhaha. Stanfield how does it work?

Argeleb Elb
July 27th, 2003, 10:48 AM
Bonnsgeo it's wonderfull, i can't wait to see the detonation. :D

Maniak
August 15th, 2003, 08:59 AM
I see video of your plastick and it´s amazing:D I use different plasticizer and my plastick is similar:cool: :) I make it from:

60% RDX (main brizant)
18% PETN (for easyer iniciation)
16% dibutylphtalate (plasticizer)
6% nitrocellulose (with 12,6%N)

next plastik (more brizant):

82% RDX
15% dibutylphtalate
3% nitrocelulose

for preparation, I put the ingredients to bowl, add 30%by weight acetone and mix until acetone is evaporated... first plastick has a det.velocity 7500-7600m/s (density 1,51g/cm3) and second one about 7900m/s. it isn´t a lot, but not bad :)
I make better plastick too (65%RDX + 31,5%NIBGT + 3,5% nitrocellulose) and it´s det.vel. is more than 8000m/s................

kingspaz
August 15th, 2003, 09:29 AM
Maniak, just wondering, how are you measuring the VoD's? since there is little difference between 7800m/s and 8000m/s you must be measuring somehow to be reasonably confident of the accuracy, which you are...

bonnsgeo
August 17th, 2003, 06:37 AM
The problem is my plastic is now not as plastic as before.

Maybe because of the hot weather of past days. I can't describe how it is, some parts are plastic, other are hard like wood, and in sometimes some PETN fall (its powder like)....

Does your mix stay "plastic" for long time ?

bye

PS: i m sure that my problem is due that i put too much pib and too few adipate.

EDIT: yes ..how do you measure VoD :) ? ...
are u sure you really did these mix ? :rolleyes:

Mr Cool
August 17th, 2003, 06:55 AM
My blu-tak plastique is still fine after many months....
It's 90% PETN, and the plasticiser is roughly 50% blu-tak binder, 50% vaseline.

Sometimes the outside seems to get a little bit harder, as if it is drying out, but if you knead it in then it seems to go back to normal.

I've always wondered, do you think it's possible to estimate the VoD of an explosive mixture like this: say you have a plastique that is 40% PETN, 50% RDX and 10% inert, then could you use (0.4 x PETN's VoD) + (0.5 x RDX's VoD) + (0.1 x 0, which is the VoD of the inert substance). At first glance it would seem reasonable, but I'm not sure. I guess you'd use the VoD figures at the density of your plastique.

bonnsgeo
August 17th, 2003, 07:38 AM
Mr cool, is your mix sticky ? because my "c4" dont stick very well.

Is it possible you put on your website some pics and the way u did it ... ?

When you store it, is it in a enclosed box ?
'Cause me, i put it outside without any protection, so adipate probably evaporate.


bye

PS: no idea for your question on VoD, but i dont think it would give you a good estmation of the VoD.

Maniak
August 17th, 2003, 08:01 AM
My plastick is stable - I have 50g of it about six months, it's still plastick and sticky - I can stick it to the wall or glass plate:) I am not sure, that VoD ,which I wrote is exact, but I made some comparative tests on the steel plates and it was estimate from diameter of deformation...

bonnsgeo
August 17th, 2003, 08:07 AM
ok .

where did u find dibutylphtalate ?

bye

Mr Cool
August 17th, 2003, 08:08 AM
It sticks to things, if I pressed it onto a wall it would stay there, but I wouldn't actually call it sticky. It doesn't stick to your hands. I've just added a few drops of oil to a 10g blob (probably about an extra % or two of oil) and mixed it in, and now it's a little bit stickier and much softer.

I stored it out in the open. It still has the disadvantage of going fluffy when you stretch it (characteristic of blu-tak binder), but it isn't too bad with the vaseline added.

Yes, I should be able to put up some pics and a write-up.

bonnsgeo
August 17th, 2003, 08:19 AM
ok sounds good.
yes "fluffy" (i didnt know this word 5 minutes ago :) ) seems to be the good word to qualify my "c4".

Great ! i want really to see your pics.

(sorry for this useless post, i ll try to not do it again :rolleyes: )
bye

Maniak
August 17th, 2003, 05:00 PM
Mr Cool: what is exactly blu-tak binder? I never heard it:(

My plastick isn't fluffy - it's near plastick for children (I don't know how you call this - plasteline or modeline or maybe modurit?:))

And dibutylphatalate is difficult to buy - I have got some good friends;)
but it can be replaced by diethylphtalate which can be easy made from phtalic anhydride and ethanol (in the presence of H2SO4)...

Mr Cool
August 17th, 2003, 06:31 PM
A topic (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=859&highlight=tack) on blu-tak binder (BTB).

BLASTER
August 18th, 2003, 09:59 AM
I have some experience with plasticizing PETN with PIB and also NC/DBF.
PIB I have used was extracted from self amalgamating tape made by Scapa, type 2501. (http://www.scapapolymerics.com/products/components_self-amalgam.html) It was easy done by leave pieces of tape for day or two in white gas, then filtered and evaporated and interesting is, that extracted PIB is clear, because pieces of black rubber remains undissolved, only PIB comes into solution.
For plasticizer I've tried dibuthylphtalate, but it not work, DBF don't mix with PIB. Then I searched for 2-ethyl-hexyl sebacate, but no luck. But it's just syntetic oil, also used for vacuum pumps (found it somewhere on the web, bottle for few bucks with name octoil-s) and sometimes as hydraulic fluid. Also next use is to make aerosol for air filters testing. Maybe this facts help someone to obtain sebacate. But I've found improvised way, I've tried synthethic motor oil and it mixed (dissolved) with PIB well. (but also standard motor oil, so I think what is the purpose of mixing some ammount of motor oil with sebacate) So, I've mixed PIB and syntetic motor oil with 2:1 ratio and used in 20% mixture with PETN. Result is perfect chewing-gum-like mass, perfectly plastic.
But next important thing is PETN particle size. Superfine powder from manufacture, only neutralized is not good. It absorb more plasticizer for satisfactory good result and it's not sticky, just dry surface. Best results are with PETN recrystalized from acetone. Perfectly plastic, little sticky, not much. Good test for plasticity is to take approx. 2g of plastic, first make ball from it and then roll between palms to make "noodle" some 3mm in diameter. It must not mess up your hands, but must hold shape without breaking when you bend it.
I've also tried plasticizing with NC/DBF, but this plasticiser can't be compared with PIB.

Mr Cool
August 18th, 2003, 10:17 AM
"So, I've mixed PIB and syntetic motor oil with 2:1 ratio and used in 20% mixture with PETN."

20% plasticiser is quite a lot, if you plan on using big charges with a big detonator then it should be fine, but anyone who's planning on using small amounts of plastique should probably aim for more like 10% plasticiser, so that they can use smaller detonators. The platiciser desensitises the explosive by quite a surprising amount IME.
It'd also be best to use a little less plasticiser to keep the VoD up.

It does sound like you've made a very good product though. Have you done any tests with it?

BLASTER
August 18th, 2003, 04:27 PM
20% for PETN is optimal for good plasticity. Semtex type 1A with 76% of PETN and 4.6% of hexogen contains 19.4% of plasticizer. Reason for higher ammount of plasticizer needed for PETN is it's lower density compared to hexogen (in C-4). Also PETN is quite sensitive for purpose of easy initiation (germans used PETN with some 40% of flegmatisant and surprisingly still worked enough).

For small ammount of PETN based plastic explosive I'm using easy to made detonators. It's made from paper tube 3mm of internal diameter, some 0.5-1mm wall thicknes, rolled from pieces of paper tape. Length of 35mm. To one end is pressed 0.2g of this plastic, working also as endplug. Then 0.2 of DDNP or HMTD slightly pressed from top on plastic into tube, then put standart pyrotechnic green fuse with increased diameter by some tape rolled to fit tight into tube. This microdetonator is very quickly made and working great. No problem detonating 1g of plastic. It's not for serious work, but ideal for quick testing.

BTW I've nice pictures of 5mm steel plate tested with two 5g charges of this plastic, both rolled into cylinder shape, but one with quickly shaped conical cavity for cumulative effect. Result is amazing.

DBSP
August 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Sounds good. Have you got any chance of getting those pics up? Ive got some PIB tape and some PETN left, I might try it. My PETN is recrystalized from acetone and very fine so the particle size shouldnt be any problems. Have to buy some more clean gasoline though.

Maniak
August 19th, 2003, 01:21 PM
Yes, I agree with BLASTER (the man from semtexland, like me:), 20% of plasticizing agent is good for optimal plasticity...and there is not much smaller VoD...when you need the best VoD, you must use explosive plasticiser.

My tests were on the 5mm steel plates too, and (the same idea;) as a cumulative charge:)
5g plastick in the cylinder shape (about 13mm diameter) usually doesn't make penetration,but when it's conical shaped, penetration is great:)

Mr Cool
August 20th, 2003, 10:34 AM
Yeah, 20% binder does make the physical properties a lot better with regards to plasticity. And judging by those pics I'd say that the VoD is still fine!!!

I'll put the pics up in a minute...

Mr Cool
August 20th, 2003, 10:40 AM
Pic1.

Mr Cool
August 20th, 2003, 10:41 AM
Pic2.

Sorry, I had to reduce the quality a little bit, but they should still be OK.

DBSP
August 20th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Really nice!! I'm very impressed by that I simply must try that. Have you got any info on how large you made the cone in the charge and an aproximate angle?

Got to find my PIB tape and put it in some gasoline, but I should really go to bed now because I'm very tired since I've managed to pull a triple off today(school, 6h work, hunting untill dark).

No, to tired have to do that tomorrow.

Remember I have to check wether my chainsaw lubricant oil is synthetic or not, might perhaps work even if it isn't synthetic, it's a very thick sticky oil so it should be great for binding things together.

bonnsgeo
August 20th, 2003, 06:16 PM
for persons who search for PIB (pure PIB, lab quality) and who live in usa i can give u a good adress . U will receive pib for free (yes ! yes ! free ! even no shiping charges !).
i am not sure if its a good idea to post the URL and/or the name of the company. Because if they receive 10 order for pib sample they will probably stop that.

So if a moderator can say me what i must do ...post the name of the company or not ..? :confused:

For me i dont care if it disappears i have other source in my country.

so ...

bye

Mr Cool
August 20th, 2003, 06:30 PM
I would say... do not post it. It would look strange if they suddenly get a massive request of samples.
People could e-mail you, asking if you would give them the name of the source. And then you could give it to them if you think they deserve it :).
Or give a very subtle clue, and let the clever ones find it for themselves.

BLASTER
August 21st, 2003, 03:33 AM
Comments for two pictures posted above.
5mm stleel plate. Two 5g charges of plasticized PETN (20% of PIB based plasticizer was used). I do not remember dimensions exactly, but both rolled to cylinder shape, little more in length than it's diameter. Second charge with additional conical cavity (45 degrees or maybe little less) shaped quickly on test site.
First charge tested on periphery of steel strip, created only depression with visible cracks in material and bend the strip. Then second modified charge fired on opposite side of steel strip, make nice hole.
Both charges initiated with standart detonator 0.2gHMTD/0.8gPETN on top of charges. But it was at time before I developed "microdetonators", so now I'm using that mainly for initiation of plastic.

note: I have used fully synthetic oil Shell Helix for diesel engines, oil must dissolve PIB. Test it first if makes surface of PIB sticky after a while.

pyroluc
January 1st, 2004, 02:01 PM
hello all,
yesterday i've tried a thing :
a mixture of PETN with sorbitol hexanitrate (the sticky liquid from mr cool website)

it give a good plastique like you can see on the little movie ( 2.7 Mo)

movie (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/lupyr/pourforum/videoplastic.mpg)

what do you think of this plastic ? it's no sensitive to flam but certainly to shock.
do you know other sitcky nitrate like sorbitol nitrate ?

excuse my bad english !!!;)
and happy new year :p

-----------------
Use capitalization in the future and read the unwritten rules.

Rhadon

freaky_frank
January 7th, 2004, 06:59 PM
I've been reading a lot about plastisizing explosives lately but one thing there is that I don't get .....adipate what is it, a powder or a liquid....and where can you get it?when I searched on google for it I got all kind of different forms of adipate...
And is this correct:
When you add PIB to synthetic motor oil...you'll get a sticky subtance which you mix your HE in....
And the adipate is used to keep it moldable? or where is the adipate for....
And the blu-tack...is it a putty or is it some sort of tape?
Like clay....or just tape...

palpy
January 10th, 2004, 03:53 PM
The trick is in dissolving the PIB in gasoline (thus getting the sticky substance you mentioned), mixing with the HE and letting the gasoline evaporate.
Yes, exactly - the adipate keeps the plastic moldable. I doubt you'll be able to obtain it easily, but anyway the abbreviation is DEHA (diethylhexyl adipate), and it's generally used as a softening agent. And it's probably an oil.

guidoji
January 18th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Mr Cool
"So, I've mixed PIB and syntetic motor oil with 2:1 ratio and used in 20% mixture with PETN."

20% plasticiser is quite a lot, if you plan on using big charges with a big detonator then it should be fine, but anyone who's planning on using small amounts of plastique should probably aim for more like 10% plasticiser, so that they can use smaller detonators. The platiciser desensitises the explosive by quite a surprising amount IME.
It'd also be best to use a little less plasticiser to keep the VoD up.

It does sound like you've made a very good product though. Have you done any tests with it?

Hello I from Argentina...
i dont speak english well....
one Question, What is the percentage of PIB and syntetic motor oil to make the plasticizer??
How many grams of the PIB and how many grams of syntetic motor oil?...

freaky_frank
January 19th, 2004, 08:23 AM
Do you mean teflon tape, electriciants tape...that kinda stuff, that is very sticky...
I'll be making some soon.

harry1
January 20th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Hi ppl, found this PDF titled "Energetic Polymers and Plasticisers for Explosive Formulations - A review ofrecent advances" during a google search, hope it helps.

www.dsto.defence.gov.au/corporate/reports/DSTO-TR-0966.pdf

Check it.

--------------------
Link fixed. You can use the preview function which is available under "New Reply".

Rhadon

Thermite
January 21st, 2004, 01:05 AM
Hello, i have Dioctyl Phthalate, i cant buy Adipate.
can i use it instead of adipate???

palpy
January 21st, 2004, 05:27 PM
No, it just won't work with PIB. You can use it to plasticise SBR though (Semtex ;)

Thermite
January 21st, 2004, 11:56 PM
palpy: ok, thanks

I will try to obtain pure SBR...
What is the "TRI-N-BUTIL CITRATO", i cant obtain this in Argentina.....
is absolutely necessary??

Thermite
January 22nd, 2004, 11:45 AM
I was reading... TRI-N-BUTIL CITRATO is Dioctyl Phthalate, the plasticizer.
But definitely i cant obtain the antioxider (N-phenyl-2-naphthalamine) in argentina.
Does it exist any other alternative for an antioxidant???

sorry, i dont speak english well

Thermite
January 23rd, 2004, 10:55 AM
hoo,,, no.... butyl critate and dioctyl phtalate are plasticeizers....
The plastificante of the SEMTEX is Dioctyl Phthalate mixed with butyl citrate

but,, i cant obtain butyl cicrate... :(

Thermite
January 23rd, 2004, 08:03 PM
The Butyl Citrate es an "ANTI-POLIMERIZANT" ("Anti-Polimerizante" in Spanish.. i dont know the name in english)

Thermite
January 24th, 2004, 02:23 PM
I think that using Adipate is not necessary when you are using self amalgamating tape, becouse this tape is not pure PIB, it already has some plastifiers, antioxidants, etc...you should only need the Motor Oil.

Thermite
January 27th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Finally I obtained a free sample of Adipate (500gr). :D :D

Pietruszkin
February 1st, 2004, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by guidoji
Hello I from Argentina...
i dont speak english well....
one Question, What is the percentage of PIB and syntetic motor oil to make the plasticizer??
How many grams of the PIB and how many grams of syntetic motor oil?...

Hi!
Did you try to make plastic explosive without any high or primary explosives (etc. PETN, RDX or HMTD/TCAP) but based on amonium nitrate? I think (know) that it is very easy to make plastic explosive based strong explosive etc PETN... In my country on our board we call this type of plastic:
BLC - based AN without any explosives
PBLC - based AN with simple to make explosives (nitrocellulose, picric acid...)

P.S Sorry for mistakes but my english is very poor.

Blackhawk
February 2nd, 2004, 02:54 AM
Ahh, AN would actually be the explosive in what you are talking about, you couldn't make an explosive without having an explosive ;) Also what is the deal with the double post? Some sort of quoting problem?

Not_Osama
February 5th, 2004, 05:11 PM
For all practical purdoses i use blue Sticky-Tak mixed with enough 10W to make it extremely oft and sticky. The low moisture of the sticky Tak Is perfect for HMX.

I recently used this mixture for 65%RDX/25%HMX/10%Tack Plastic explosive. It stayed soft and malleable Even at -2F. This is perfect for all Winter Applications or general all-around since it doesnt crumble like the waxes. It also kept The HGX Water-free, even while sitting in wet snow.

Pietruszkin
February 6th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Yes amonium nitrate is explosive but you can buy AN i everyone farmer shop (in my country). You don't buy RDX or PETN without any problems.

P.S. Sorry for my double post but I have problem with sending my post (I didnt see my post - I dont know that it was send with any problems).

ohh my poor english...

PIB
February 14th, 2004, 12:58 PM
can i plasticize HMTD with PIB+Adipate+Oil?????

mongo blongo
February 14th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Yes it will plasticize. Weather it will detonate or not is another question. It will probably not be flame sensitive if that's what you want but it could be cap sensitive. Your guess is as good as mine so just try it and you will have your answer.

PIB
February 15th, 2004, 02:54 AM
but.... can i disolve hmtd in white gas????

Microtek
February 15th, 2004, 04:17 AM
The crystalline explosive component does not need to dissolve, only the binder/plasticizer system. Neither PETN nor RDX dissolves in gasoline, but PIB and motor oil does.

snuk5
February 15th, 2004, 09:21 AM
RE: Butyl esters in making “plastique”.

I’ve seen some documentary about the PLO terrorists by the BBC.

The terros were all too happy to chat to the reporters. Their “BombMaker in Chief” was full of shit.
His face and hands looked seriously damaged and his boss had not provided for plastic surgery.
His explanation was that he survived an Israeli assassination attempt. But it was quite obvious that he made some fateful mistake and that some stuff went Boom or Whoosh into his face.

Now what I saw standing there in their crude bomb-making factory, was some 25 kg bags of E-PVC powder. At least that was what the labeling said. (I even recognized the manufacturer’s name; some Arab PVC manufacturer that I came across before)

I have pondered what in earth’s name that stuff was doing there. Was it merely some packaging for some other –highly illicit- material?

Or do these terros use it in some way?

I you take say 50 gm of that E-PVC and you add an excess (say 250 ml) of DOP plasticizer (Di-octyl pthalate, or Octoil etc) and preferably a bit of stabilizer and you'd heat that up to about 150 degrees C and let it cool down, you end up with an extremely tacky goop that would practically never dry out. The elasticity / viscosity could be tuned by the amounts. Could well be a very nice “plasticizer” for RDX et al.

Samples of E-PVC could be gotten from your local plastic products manufacturers. DOP is a bit more difficult but I reckon that any other PVC plasticzer would do. (Like di-butyl pthalate)

I reckon I’d use DOP myself, as I have a full 200 kg drum standing here that I don’t know what to do with.

Making some 18 tons of plastique would at least create some space in my garage…..

PIB
February 15th, 2004, 07:13 PM
what is E-PVC... is it normal PVC???

Boomer
February 16th, 2004, 07:05 AM
but.... can i disolve hmtd in white gas????

DON’T DO IT !!!

I had it detonate into my face while mixing! There were at least 5 accidents (here and on TOTSE) with HMTD / AP when people wanted to plasticise it. There seems to be an unknown incompatibility as it went off from less force than even the dry crystals would need, and two time it was claimed to be just sitting there when …
And don’t use a solvent. The mixing may be safer when you dissolve it first, but when the solvent evaporates, it might form bigger crystals in the mass. When you scrape the dried mass off and kneed it … BOOM!
Leave primaries for caps in gram-amounts, and make your plastique with a suitable HE like RDX, PETN, ETN; even HDN works with energetic plasticisers if your cap is really strong. If you cant make any of the above you are not ready yet. Search the forum and you will find (safe) methods for all the HEs mentioned. Except for RDX you don’t even need nitric acid, only sulphuric, a nitrate and a sweetener/fuel tablets.

I am typing this with 7 fingers so PLEASE LISTEN!

PIB
February 16th, 2004, 03:53 PM
Oh!!!.... Thanks!!!!!

PIB
February 17th, 2004, 03:16 PM
What do you think about plasticize Ammnoium Nitrate with PIB...
Veryy Hard to detonate.. but.. it will not be hygroscopic...

sorry for my poor english

wrench352
February 18th, 2004, 12:16 AM
I once knew someone who plastisized PETN with NG.Specifically what I heard was 60% PETN,20%NG and 20% 3m Al(the Al was added to lower the VoD enough to produce a visible shockwave,or so I was told). The resulting 450gm plastic-like mass completely obliterated a large limestone rock guesstimated at over 400lbs. Attempts to photograph the event failed. Quick,easy and using what you probably already have in the shed out back(if your a proper pyro) :) .

Boomer
February 18th, 2004, 07:13 AM
“ I once knew someone who plastisized PETN with NG. Specifically what I heard was 60% PETN, 20%NG and … “

This is a 1:3 ratio of NG to a crystalline nitro-ester. Reminds me of my version, using MHN + NG. I will simply paste my old notes in here, they are a bit long but maybe helpful:

Energetic Plasticisers

1. Plastique mass

3.5g of MHN was kneaded into 1ml of 40C nitroglycerine. The paste was quite thin and sticky. Using more MHN results in something like blasting gelatine but more 'plastic', less 'gel like'. This stuff is very powerful but needs a BIG cap. Like the gelatine, the inner surface that propagates the shock wave is reduced in storage, there are no crystals and the micro air bubbles disappear with time. Old gelatine in hot weather can go down to 1500m/s if no booster is used, according to Kast/Stettbacher. This is why they used a cartridge of straight dynamite in tropic climates as a primer for gelatine dynamites before the PETN/RDX sensitised mixes were invented.

2. Filler

To overcome this, and to further increase power, an equal amount of RDX can be kneaded in (or more, if less MHN is used). I used HDN, having no RDX at the moment. The mass with 3.5g MHN needed 4.5g HDN to become play dough like. With the higher density of RDX it should take even more RDX. The properties are OK, it will stick to any surface but not to the hands, and it is not crumbling apart. It should also still be cap sensitive with 50% esters of
4cm/2kg sensitivity. Only problem is handling as I hate nitro-headaches!

3. Improvements

I started again with higher amounts (for more precise ratios).
40g MHN was mixed into 10ml NG at 50C. The stuff was taken out of the water bath and put on a wooden plate. Finely ground HDN was kneaded in at room temperature until the consistency was ideal, being 77g. The resulting mass was incredibly plastic, the lump of 133g was rolled to a sausage and held upright. It bend around and folded over 180 degree without coming apart.

TEST: A 0.8" dia chunk was stuck to a 3mm steel plate and detonated with a central 1g-MHN cap. It blew a clean hole through the plate, without forming a cavity or something SC-like in it before. Obviously it is cap sensitive without confinement. :D

4. Outlook

When next I distil NA I will try RDX for HDN. This will make the mix more powerful than C4 I guess. Reason: Of the much denser RDX, more could be kneaded in. And with reduced MHN content, an 80/20 mix should be possible.
I assume that 80% RDX with 20% of 8000m/s plasticiser will be better than 90% with 10% inert stuff! (2 parts MHN at 8.25 km/s + 1 part NG at 7.6 km/s should be around 8 km/s, especially with the density being higher than that of both compressed MHN (1.6) and liquid NG (1.6): I measured 1.7 g/ccm.)

Maybe someone with the precursors tries this for me, as I cannot make caps without pissing my pants (the remains of my third finger are currently fouling off). But it is getting better: The number of beers needed to make me handle primaries has dropped from eight to five! ;)

PIB
February 20th, 2004, 11:12 AM
Yesterday i tried to plastify 20gr of hdn with 2 gr of pib + 0.1 gr motor oil and a bit of adipate.
I disolved all in white gas and then y added the HDN , when the white gas vaporized completely i found that the explosive was not a plastic explosive, it was HDN with a bit of pib , practically gray HDN.

sorry for my poor english

Boomer
March 1st, 2004, 12:23 PM
I finally found the time to destil some NA from AN/SA. I did it in the bathroom (!), with the wind coming from the living room, through the door and out the window: This is a good fume hood! Fortunately the wind comes from that direction most of the year, so unless it is really storming or there is no wind at all, I will prefer this to the garden shed where nosy neighbours can see me! :p

Back OT: I made some more of the plastique described two posts up, using RDX instead of HDN this time. Ratio for the binder was 10ml NG + 30g MHN (instead of 40g to get a softer mass so more RDX can be kneaded in). The RDX crystals must have been even finer than the HDN, as the mass took only 40g of it. The consistency was a little less soft, but it also has a drier surface, leaving nearly no NG on your fingers. :)

I will compare this with the old mix, using steel plates. BTW I used a ribbon charge of the old mix, getting constantly thinner and narrower to the end, to find the critical diameter without confinement. It went from 1”x1” to ½” x ¼” (width x thickness), one foot long. The detonation stopped two thirds along the way, cutting a ¼” plate in the first third, and bending it for the second. The last third of the ribbon was left and the plate there was unharmed.

I’ll keep you informed!

Boomer
April 8th, 2004, 11:21 AM
I am referring to my recipe three posts above. I finally found the time (and courage) to do some tests with the plastique with MHN/NG/HDN described above under "3. improvements".

A 40g chunk was placed in the middle of a steel plate, 7mm thick, 60mm wide, and 200mm long. It cut the plate twice and blew out the middle part. See the pics. :)

If this is what a HDN filled plastic explosive does if energetic plasticisers are used, I am curious how strong a RDX filled plastique will be. :D
I speak about the stuff from my last post, it is prepared and waiting for the test. I will keep you informed.....

kingspaz
April 8th, 2004, 06:44 PM
boomer, you do realise you have a potentially unstable mixture there?

HDN is acidic, NG and MHN are decomposed under acidic conditions. i wouldn't recommend storing this mixture if you insist on making it.

although, with RDX i'm sure it would form a very effective plasitique.

Boomer
April 13th, 2004, 01:51 PM
I do.
Over the first 2 month of storage, I constantly checked for NOx smell, but it seemed stable, though it always was acidic to litmus. Adding Na2CO3 did not help, you can add and add and add ... until you get hexamin + NaNo3 I suppose.

Maybe this is the key for the strange stability: If the HDN gives off HNO3, there must be some hexamin (or other amine + crap) left, which catches the NOx and stops further decomposition of the nitrate esters like urea would. This is just a semi-educated guess, at least in the simple RDX synth using (too) red NA it works this way: as long as amines are present, there is no runaway.

Anyway, now the remaining 1/4 pound is well wrapped and buried in a deep hole in a cool, lonely forest. :cool:

You are right, RDX will give the mix more brisance. But even now the cutting power is amazing: The steel was placed on a several phone books, and the charge was only 1/3 of the amount of C-4 recommended in the blasters manual. :)

Mr Cool
April 13th, 2004, 02:09 PM
It should be OK if dry I think.
Perhaps you could add some free hexamine as well? It couldn't do any harm.

Maniak
April 13th, 2004, 02:23 PM
Big problem with hexamine dinitrate is that it is easy to hydrolyze - even by moist air. The products of decomposition aren´t only HNO3 and hexamin, but also formaldehyde, which helps to decomposition again... I make hexamine dinitrate for making RDX by KA method and I have big problems with drying it :rolleyes: I want to find some way to prevent hydrolyze, but I haven´t got any idea, yet...

Mr Cool
April 13th, 2004, 03:18 PM
"I have big problems with drying it I want to find some way to prevent hydrolyze, but I haven´t got any idea, yet..."

Add the nitric acid to the hexamine, chill, and filter out the HDN ppte. Recrystalise it from boiling water, chill the solution, filter it out again, dry between paper towels, wash with acetone, dry between paper towels again, and then air dry. That's how I made my last batch, probably about 6 months ago. It's been kept in a jam jar, and there's still no smell of formaldehyde.

Maniak
April 13th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Yes, thanks :) I had nice yelds by this way:
reaction, filtration, washing with cold water, ethanol and then a little toluene (to get out water from crystals). Drying on the paper towel with ventilator or IR lamp.
Yelds were about 90-95% of theory, but it in some cases it didn´t work and started to decompose - then I put it to acetone and filtered again...
My problem is I hate smell of formaldehyde :D

nbk2000
May 17th, 2004, 04:36 PM
I've read that EVA (Ethylene Vinyl Acetate) is being used as a binder for warheads nowadays, with only about 5% being needed with RDX. EVA is cheap.

al93535
May 19th, 2004, 01:33 AM
I decided to try some plastic, made with RDX. I found an amazing plasticizer and its OTC, ready to go! I used "clear museum gel" its kind of like earthquare wax. At about 10% clear gel, and 90% RDX it is pretty plastic but does break apart a bit if pulled, but stays nice if compacted. You can shape it, mould it and stick it. It is sticky enough to stick to any object, but not sticky to your fingers. This is what I will be using, works very nicely! Can you apply too much pressure kneeding the RDX into the plasticizer? Is there much possibility of detonation? Anyways, try "clear museum gel"!! ;)

Boomer
June 1st, 2004, 07:16 AM
I must apologize for not having tested the RDX version of the HDN plastique described and illustrated above (steel cutting pics). It is still resting in an earth hole in the woods. ;)

Instead I have done some more research, eliminating THE big problem related to my formula: the NG plasticizer! With a nitrate ester as a plasticizer (NG) and as a binder (MHN, ETN, PETN), every RDX composition should at least be equal to the commercial equivalent using an inert stuff like PIB/sebacate or whatever. But the headaches! You need gloves all the time .... :(

Looking for an energetic solvent for solid nitrate esters, I found the nitro-sugars. They are very energetic, the simple ones consisting basically of two NG molecules in series, with one nitrate replaced by a ketone- or aldehyde group. Formula is C6H7(ONO2)5 for nitro- glucose and -mannose, and C12H14O3(ONO2)8 for nitro- maltose, -lactose and -sucrose. OB is +2% respectively -9% (COPAE).

The only liquid (non-crystalline) of these five was nitro glucose, glucose pentanitrate. It is a thick syrup at room temperature. I replaced the NG in my plastique with NG (joke intended! How shall we call it - GPN?) OK, with glucose pentanitrate. It was made using the MHN / PETN method with distilled NA and 96% SA. The only difference is that it is too viscous to neutralize as-is, it must be done in solution, evaporating the solvent later.

The result was fantastic, in my standard mix of GPN/NG:MHN:RDX of 1:3:3, it worked nearly perfectly. The stuff was a little more sticky to the fingers, that is all. BUT: you can knead it with bare hands for an hour without headaches! And I am VERY sensitive with NG and EGDN. :)

Thinking how sticky the mix was, I played with the ratios and found an even better solution: 1:1:3.6 of GPN:MHN:RDX seems ideal. It feels like play dough, sticks to your mirror but not to your fingers, and it contains much more RDX than my old plastique. I measured the density with three chunks of 6, 18 and 28 grams, and found values of 1.73g/ccm, 1.72g/ccm and 1.73 g/ccm.

With this density, the better OB, and the fact that the binder + plasticizer are both energetic, equivalent in power to NG, I am quite confident that this stuff surpasses both C-4 and semtex, due to the lack of inert shit! Who ever thinks different can say so, I am not angry or something, but this is what I think!

I already tested it. After the HDN version cut a 7x60mm steel plate using only 1/3 of what the blaster's manual suggests, I used 1/5 of what was suggested. A 25g ribbon charge cleanly cut a 5x100mm steel plate. Pics will follow, I have to get the digicam ready.

I have only one problem left: Neutralizing the nitro sugar in a solvent is not efficient! The mix does not turn into red fumes in your hand, but it should be used within a week. The old (NG) stuff stored for month! Can anybody help with ideas please?

Boomer
August 27th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Here are the pics again, they got lost thanks to iDefense. I will look at home, maybe I still have some old posts on HDD...

ProdigyChild
August 27th, 2004, 12:02 PM
@Boomer: I remember I once tried to nitrate Sorbitol and got a honey like liquid. I'm not sure if I simply got the reaction wrong. I stopped using Sorbitol this, because I preferred solid explosives at that time.

The good thing about Sorbitol is, you can get it easily as suger replacement.
If it's of any use as plasticizer??

PIB
August 27th, 2004, 09:05 PM
dioctyl adipate is cancerigenic.......one question...is detaflex or c4 (pib+adipate+oil+petn or rdx) cancerigenic???
should i avoid skin contact?

SweNMFan
August 27th, 2004, 10:03 PM
C4 shouldn't eaten atleast .. But RDX is also used as a medicine, under the name of methenamine, used for the control of urinary tract infections, also used in the manufacturer of plastics, and as an accelerator for the vulcanization of rubber...

So I guess that the RDX bit is not cancerigenic.. The placterciser may be..

PIB
August 27th, 2004, 11:37 PM
Yes......PETN is alsa used as medicine.....but C4,DetaFlex etc....also contain adipate whitch is cencerigenic.......my question is the following, can cause cancer skin contact of the C4 or Detaflex?

nitrogeno
August 28th, 2004, 12:38 AM
Yes......PETN is alsa used as medicine.....but C4,DetaFlex etc....also contain adipate whitch is cencerigenic.......my question is the following, can cause cancer skin contact of the C4 or Detaflex?

Hello my friend, here also we are. Manipulate it with latex gloves. The adipate indeed is cancerigenic, like this way any product that contains it without having reacted.

kingspaz
August 28th, 2004, 10:27 AM
I'm no expert on this but the answer seems fairly obvious. If C4 contains adipate then when you touch the C4 you will be in contact with adipate. Whether it causes cancer through skin contact is something a little more difficult to work out. From googling, the general opinion seems to be that only long term contact with adipate through ingestion in drinking water is suspicious for causing long term health effects. There currently doesn't seem to be much information on how exactly adipate causes cancer. Does it cause mutation in cells itself or does it break down in the stomach to release cancinogenic compounds, which then go on to cause caner.
So, I'd say so long as you wash your hands well before you eat C4 should be fine to handle :)

freaky_frank
September 1st, 2004, 08:47 PM
RDX itself is also carciogenic....so don't worry about the adipate lol

BTW do you guys know if DOS (dioctylsebecate) is the same as 2-bis ethylhexyl sebecate...I thought it was though.
Anyway tomorrow I'll get 500gr PIB MW >1.000.000 and 150ml DOS (42 euro! expensive!)

K9
September 1st, 2004, 11:03 PM
RDX itself is also carciogenic....so don't worry about the adipate lol

BTW do you guys know if DOS (dioctylsebecate) is the same as 2-bis ethylhexyl sebecate...I thought it was though.
Anyway tomorrow I'll get 500gr PIB MW >1.000.000 and 150ml DOS (42 euro! expensive!)

Dioctyl sebacate and bis(2-ethylhexyl)sebacate are 2 different names for the same compound.

PIB
September 19th, 2004, 04:12 PM
DON’T DO IT !!!

Quoting an entire post, without using only the relevant part, equals sloppy posting skills, as we don't know what part you are referring to.



n-Hexane: Incompatible with strong oxidizing agents (e.g. peroxides, nitrates and perchlorates); chlorine; fluorine, dinitrogen tetroxide (nitrogen dioxide).

NightStalker
September 23rd, 2004, 07:15 PM
It's not "cancerigenic", it's "carcinogenic".

Anyways, don't worry about any cancer risk, as you have a 1 in 3 chance of dying of cancer, regardless of what you do.

And you're far more likely to kill yourself accidentially with the RDX content exploding in your face than to die from any cancer the plasticizer might give you.

nbk2000
December 16th, 2004, 09:03 PM
The GPN (Glucose PentaNitrate) mentioned on page 5, was that made from liquid glucose, or the anhydrous (or monohydrate) dextrose salt?

I'd imagine it does make a difference which form is used, though one could always add water to the dextrose salt to get the required state of hydration.

Myrol
December 18th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Isn't it possible to make a very cheap and easy Explosive out of AP, Ammonium Nitrate and Polyiso butylene? I have some PIB Oppanol B100 here its a solid block and absolutely unwanted for Plastic Explosives BUT if I mix the PIB with Gasoline or Petroleum, I get a nice soft mass wich is very good able to plasticise something!

15% AP, 70% AN and 15% PIB could work! A long time ago, I have made a Plastique with AP and Vaseline, it was to much Vaseline because the mix just burned fiercly down even with more than 60% AP!!!

Yes, I know. Plastics with PETN are a lot more powerful and brisant as with AP, but PETN is makes also a lot more effort to produce it. AP not.

Silvester is coming soon, I think I can try some grams of this stuff! If it works fine, I'll post some results!

nbk2000
December 18th, 2004, 06:48 PM
If it's in a platicized form, AP would likely explode in your hand, as it's crystals would be grinding and breaking against each other as you molded the material.

kingspaz
December 18th, 2004, 10:31 PM
Wouldn't the plasticiser act as a lubricant between the crystals?

xyz
December 19th, 2004, 03:11 AM
If you had small enough crystals then plasticized AP should be fine. In SWIM's experiences with AP, crystals being ground/broken by gentle crushing action would only lead to a detonation in VERY large crystals.

For example, when AP is pressed into a detonator, you can actually hear the crystals breaking and crunching if you're listening for it (and in a quiet place), but I've never had any AP detonate while pressing.

IIRC there was a post recently about reducing AP crystal size by putting AP in a blender ALONG WITH LOTS OF WATER. Doing this would make the AP more suitable for plasticising. Not only would it be less sensitive, but it would mix more homogenously with the plasticiser. Still, be sensible, and get your hands on a bunch of sandbags and 100m of extension cords.

ProdigyChild
December 19th, 2004, 01:18 PM
@Myrol: look 3 posts upwards from yours and find out, why you DON'T want to use gasoline! Look even further up for one of Boomers posts.

Why the fuck grinding AP?? Stop playing with a loaded weapon pointing to your head!
I like coarse cristals (approx 0.3mm), I don't prefer powder.

If I want powder now and then, I dissolve the AP in acetone and spray it sparely on a warm PE plate. The acetone avaporates quickly and a thin layer of tiny crystals remains on the plate.
Brush these off with a small paint brush. Use one, that does not generate static charge while brushing ;)

xyz
December 19th, 2004, 07:36 PM
I didn't tell anyone to point a loaded weapon at their head, let alone play with it...

All I did was tell them about a procedure that I recently saw a post about, I think it was here at Roguesci, but I'm unable to find anything when I search.

However, now that you mention it, recrystallization from acetone seems a better way of reducing AP to a fine powder.

While you may prefer coarse crystals for general use, a powder will plasticise much more easily.

Boomer
December 20th, 2004, 03:21 AM
I think with the loaded weapon he did not mean the blender, but the general idea of using AP as a main charge.

About the blender: I did lots of tests with moist/wet AP (see my monster post in the respective thread): As soon as it is barely soaked in water, you cannot set it of with moderate blows of a hammer on an anvil, neither by grinding as hard as you can in a mortar. At 2000% more water it is safe, as long as you start with only water, and don't switch on again after it settled. You don't want it all sitting around the blade when you start the motor (though even that would not worry me with a long cord.

I tried small amounts of plasticised AP. With 15-20% inert binders, it gets notably less sensitive. With NG/MHN binder, sensitivity is between dry AP and dry MHN. I would not make bigger amounts though, as I cannot think of a way you don't either add some dry AP to lots of near-ready plastique, or start with lots of dry AP! Solvents are no option as you might get big crystals on evaporation.

At NBK: The dextrose used for my GPN/DPN said "dextrose with 10 vitamins" on the package. With <0.1% vitamins, it should have 100% carbohydrates, but the package said 91% carbohydrates. I guess the rest was water, as it lost some weight when I pre-dried it on a hotplate. It was a seemingly dry powder before and after drying.

I pre-dry everything before nitration. Both cellulose and starch have over 10% water to get rid off in "air dry" state. 80-90C for 2h works great, you don't want dextrine. :p

++++++++++

Thanks. That's all I needed to know. :) NBK