Cap sensitive ANFO

[xyz]

A while back I read that ANFO which is made with finely powdered AN will be cap sensitive as long as the charge has a density below 0.78g/cc. A packing density of 0.78g/cc or below can be acheived by simply pouring the ANFO mix into the casing without any tamping or shaking.

Recently I have done several tests to see how well a cap sensitive ANFO mix performs. The AN was finely powdered in an electric coffee grinder and mixed with 7% unleaded petrol. About a week ago I first tried to detonate ANFO with a 3g AP detonator made from a hollowed out AAA battery case, the charge was 80g of ANFO inside a toilet roll. That charge worked perfectly making a small puff of smoke and leaving shreds of toilet roll everywhere.

Today I did a test to see what was the smallest detonator was that could reliably set off the ANFO mix. I had another charge identical to the first one and I was going to try a 0.75g detonator, a 1g detonator, and a 2g detonator (all detonators were AP pressed into 3cm lengths of different diameter drinking straws). The 0.75g detonator only partially detonated the charge, blowing a few cm off the top. Then I tried the 1g detonator and the whole charge detonated perfectly. I then got rid of the 2g detonator in the only proper way, forcibly dismantling a brick in the process :) .

I hope to try a 400g charge underwater tomorrow, has anyone else tried this cap sensitive ANFO? It is very cheap (less than $0.80AUD a Kg, including fuel and the electricity required to power the grinder).

[DBSP]

As I have mentioned before, I've done some testing on ANFO like mixtures. My goal has been to find a mix that easily would detonate from max a 4g cap + being cheap and easy to prepare and "safe".

The mixtures I've tested so far have been, ANWAX and ANACAL. These have been detonated using shotshells of APAN as boosters (max booster), so far I have only done one test on the ANACAL(AN+3%acetone and 2% Al), a 200g charge which I belive fully detonated(I can't really be shure of that scince I detonated it under thick ice and more than a meter below the surface).

The ANWAX(AN+2%floor polish+2%acetone+1%Al)has been tested many times and it workes perfectly never had a failed charge, smallest cap I've tested so far is a 4g HMTD cap, but I'm shure you could get away with half that ammount if properly pressed. Normaly I just pour the explosive into the container thus substaining a low density, the ANWAX seemes quite powerful too, relatively speaking of course.

I've never tested "regular ANFO" in such small ammount nor with petrol. I can't really say anything about that but I've got some experiense with the above mentioned explosives.

Onw thing I've noticed with the ANWAX is that the volume of smoke varies greately. One day when I detonated several 150g charges under water in s amall ditch the first charge gave off a quite "normal" ammount of smoke, the second created a thick cloud of dense white smoke whileas the last charge hardly gave up any smoke even though all charges had performed similar and i didn't notice any differances in their performance.

I have a 150g carge left that i never got around to detonate, I seal all these charges carefully so I might perhaps still be able to detonate it, that would be great, in that case it would allso prove to be storageble. I belive it was prepared 22/12-02.

Right now I need to develop a formula for Ca(NO3)2 scince my access of AN has gotten worse since they recetly banned N28, my best source of AN. CN is really easy to get but difficult to do someting useful with.

[Anthony]

xyz, are you sure you've been getting full detonations?

The description of your first charge sounds like just the detonator going off and destroying the charge with a "puff". 80gm should give you a thunderous bang...

Sorry if I have miss-read your description, that's how it sounded to me.

[xyz]

You read the description right, but I wrote it last night and it should have been more descriptive.

I am sure that the ANFO did detonate. The smoke was grey, thin and wispy, caused (I think) by there being slightly too much fuel. It was not the white cloud of dispersed AN that you would expect from an incomplete detonation. Also, there was no AN on the ground when I checked to see what had happened.

I wasn't sure about the noise it made because I had my hands over my ears (I was rather close), it definitely sounded a lot lower/louder than the sharp crack of an AP detonator.

<small>[ April 05, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[green beret]

This is very good info, I think I will have a go at this cap sensitive ANFO. Another application for it would be to use it to set of a larger charge of ANFO that has a greater density, hence a higher VoD.
Good work xyz, any chance you could get a video or some pictures?

[Skean Dhu]

i have been reading up on AN based explosives over the past few weeks,and have stumbled across a few things that leave some questions in my mind.

first off is that in one forum thread about ANFOS it was stated that the minimum diameter of an ANFOS charge be 6", yet in this thread it implys that this fact is false.

also a google search uncovered and article about Philipian fishermen using an AN+kerosene mixture that had been 'cooked down' in massive batches and then when needed was placed into a glass bottle and detonated with a fuse.
is this plausible or another demonstration of the media's inept ability at misconstruing facts and fiction.

[xyz]

The critical diameter for prilled ANFO is 6", the critical diameter for finely powdered ANFO is about 1.5".

Green Beret, I have thought about using this for boosters and although it is possible, the booster would be big and bulky because of the low density of the powdered ANFO.

I am very interested in that "cooked down" method, I would guess that it wouldn't be flame sensitive and would need a cap.

Edit: Here are some pics showing a bottle containing 400g, A close up of the ANFO, and an unfilled detonator case that is the size required to set off the ANFO (6.5mm by 30mm). They are webcam captures because my digital camera is being fixed at the moment.

<img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/Xyz/picture%204.jpg" alt=" - " /> <img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/Xyz/picture%205.jpg" alt=" - " /> <img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/hosted%20images/Xyz/picture%206.jpg" alt=" - " />

<small>[ April 05, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[xyz]

OK, I have posted this as a reply instead of editing because my previous reply is large already and this is important and would probably go unread if it was at the bottom of my previous post.

I just attempted to set off the 400g charge in the bottle (Above ground) using a pressed 1g AP cap. The cap only detonated half of the charge and I am still not sure why, possible reasons are:

1. The cap was too small and it was only a fluke that it worked in the previous test

2. The charge had been sitting overnight (but in an airtight container), the charges used in previous tests were made and tested within a few hours, I think that the charge may have settled somewhat and become more tightly packed

3. It was a larger charge than the one used for the tests

Anyway, from now on I will either be using a big detonator or a small APAN booster for setting this stuff off.

<small>[ April 06, 2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[DBSP]

When using a bottle as casing it might be a good idea to have a lenght of drinking straw inserted in the middel of the charge and about as long as the bottle is. This might help preventing partial dets. I might be sufficient to have a 50/50 mixture of AP/AN in the bottom part of the det, and one part of compressed AP as a "usual det" at the top.

The APAN would probably not need to be very dense scince it's mostly there to aid the shockwave from the actual det.

?

[xyz]

Skean Dhu, could you post the URL for that thing about the Phillipino ANFO?

[Skean Dhu]

i can't find it at the moment, but i did find this site which seems to have some promisising information, <a href="http://www.digistar.mb.ca/minsci/SYSTEMS/explosives/anfo.htm" target="_blank">http://www.digistar.mb.ca/minsci/SYSTEMS/explosives/anfo.htm</a>
i've tried every phrasing of it i could think of but unless its in like the 10th set of results i haven't found it.
i tried homemade ANFOS, home made ANFOs, how to make ANFOs, fishing with ANFOs, ANFO in the phillipines, and about 20 others.

does anybody in the US(midwest to be more precise) know of a place that sells 'pure' AN, what does the bag look like, cause $0.88(at Wal*Mart, sold as ACE cold packs) is a big rip-off compared to the 9-12cents/lb most of the files i've read say for a huge sack of it

[rjche]

Go to any farm store that sells fertilizer to farms. They are loaded with AN this time of the year as well as nitrate of soda for those interested in that.

The AN is practically pure with trivial amounts of coating on the prills to hinder somewhat its ability to get wet soaking up humidity from air. It sells for about 7$ for a 50 lb bag. Grind it if needed and the contaminant being inert will do very little to dampen a detonation wave. Having it dry is much more important than having it very pure.

Studies done decades ago to see about contaminating AN fertilizer to prevent it being used as an explosive proved that not practical. They even tried mixing half and half AN and Asulfate, and it also exploded with a good booster. Their conclusion was it could not be made non explosive and still have any use as a fertilizer. They also concluded that with any inert diluent it could always be restored to explosive grade by dissolution and crystallization.

However they did manage to render sodium chlorate weed killer almost immune to restoring its explosability by mixing it half and half with sodium borate. That is a major dud mixture.

[zaibatsu]

Is that what NaClO3 weed killer is mixed with in the UK? I always assumed it was just mixed with NaCl. As always Rjche, it's a pleasure to see you back.

[Al Nobel]

Has anybody tried to sensitize ANFO by adding 1-2% of Red Phosphorus.
I´ve read about this method a while ago,but I´ve had a complete system crash two days ago and lost many of my interesting files so I can´t say where exactly (never buy IBM harddisks :mad: ).
Normally I´d never mix Red Phosphorus and Nitrates,not even in this concentration,but it would be interesting to know how stable/sensitive such a kind of ANFO would be.

[zaibatsu]

Was it in something like KIFE? I think it's the same mixture that contains coffee grinds (to act as microspheres?). A very suspect mix.

[xyz]

Someone has posted something before about an AN/Sulfur mix being detonateable. Does anyone have any information on the sensitivity, VoD, etc of this mixture?

[nbk2000]

I was looking at the shelves at work, and noticed an interesting item in the form of a drain opener. Specifically the Draino Foamer drain cleaner. The only ingredient listed was sodium dichloroisocyanurate.

It conveniently provided a patent number (5,630,883) on the back so I looked it up.

# = %/wt
Sodium Dichloro-isocyanurate 45
Citric Acid 19.50
Sodium Carbonate 27.50
Sodium Dodecylbenzene Sulfonate 3
Sodium Bicarbonate 5

This is almost exactly what is described in a bookz file written by the guy who wrote KIPE (that I can't find at the moment) for use in foaming cast AN compounds to make them cap sensitive. :)

The cyanurate is a gas generator that produces large volumes of gaseous byproducts when it reacts with an acid. The sulfonate provides a detergent action that results in small bubbles, rather than large voids.

What could a person do with a cap sensitive material that could be made entirely from materials found at the local drug store, without any complicated chemistry? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[xyz]

OK, I just had a very interesting daydream.

I dreamt that a friend and I were going to set off some triangle crackers filled with different mixes to test the power of each mix. We also decided "What the hell, lets bring some powdered ANFO too". I dreamed that we finished filling our crackers with different ratios of APAN and APPN and we still had about 20g of APPN (25%AP 75%KNO3) left over. We had made 350g of ANFO and we added the APPN to sensitize it a bit.

Anyway, in this dream we tested the crackers (BTW, APPN containing 25% AP is a VERY good cracker composition, much louder than straight AP, possibly due to a much better oxygen balance?, APAN at 25% AP fared similarly but the above mixes using only 15% AP were not very powerful, in my dreams I am going to use APPN for all my crackers instead of APAN because it is not very hygroscopic).

After we dreamt that we had finished the tests we took a triangle filled with 3g APAN (25%AP) and we put it in the middle of a 30g APAN (10%AP) booster. We then put this under the plastic bag that had the ANFO in it. I dreamt that we found a large and very solid log (we were in the forest) with a hole in it at the bottom next to the ground that perfectly fit our charge, we stuffed it into the hole and then tightly jammed a rock into the top of the hole (with just enough space at one side for our fuse).

Upon detonation, I dreamed that there was an enormous roar that was a lot sharper than I would have expected for ANFO. All the birds chucked psychos and flew off squawking. Then the most amazing thing happened, I dreamed that a big chunk of wood weighing about 3-4Kg flew through the air and landed about 25m from my friend and I. Some of the wood from the log had flown about 25m up in the air and travelled about 60m from the test site :eek: . I dreamed that when we went back to look, there was a crater over 1m wide(but only about 30-40cm deep) where the log had been and one of the nearby trees had been extensively damaged by a similar chunk of flying wood.

Some of the reasons that I think the charge in my dream was so powerful are:
1. The 5g of AP that had been in the APPN that we added to it, I think this helped the charge to acheive a much higher VoD than normal.
2. The massively strong and tight confinement that the charge was under.
3. The reasonably big booster used and the fact that the AN used had been very pure and dry.

The overall charge would have consisted of roughly 2% AP, 6% KNO3, 5% Unleaded Petrol, and 87% AN

[rooster]

XYZ: Thats interesting! I think the confinement had a lot to do with the power. Think about all the gas that is formed.

[xyz]

Yes, I dreamed that the rock that was placed in the top was put in at such an angle that it had to be pushed sideways to remove it, not pushed upwards (where is was stopped from doing this by about 30cm of wood) like the ANFO would have tried to push it.

[rooster]

Later on today i believe i'll have a dream about ANNM. I've dreamt about several charges of ANFO. I dreamt i just got the NM. It will be underwater i think.

[Dr_Pind]

I was running through the KIPE last night, and stumbled over the red phosphorus coffee plastic explosive. This is a mix incorporating both phosphorus and a nitrate. Since the KIPE is said to be reliable, i guess that this mix isn't too sensitive/unstable. I was wondering if anyone has tried this composition, and also if it would be possible to substitude the Phosphorus with another sensitizing agent (sulphur, potassium polysulfide or similar). It says in the recipe to put 14 ml. of water in a seperate beaker, but it doesn't specify what it is used for. Is that a misplaced sentence or a typo?
The text also tells that the explosive is similar to "the one in KIFE". Is this the foamed AN parrafine cast mix? I havent got the KIFE, but read about this cast explosive in the post "Cap sensitive explosives in KIFE".
Would this mix be resistant to atmosferic moisture (ammonium nitrate silicone oil matrix)?
I like this composition due to the simplicity, low price, and it being plastic.
will try it if i can get a sensitizing agent other than phosphorus.

[andyboy]

Well, i've also experienced a dramatic change in the power of AN-explosives when confined. I believe you are right about that reason.

I have exploded a few AN/NM/AL charges over the past few days and none off them where confined except for the last one. I set off one charge which weighed about 700 grams and when i saw the movie off it i noticed how much off the gas that went to waste. The gases shot up like a plume into the sky.

I thought that i would have to confine the blast better to get a little more power per pound. So i took 1200 grams off AN/NM/AL and poured it into a pvc-pipe. I used 5 grams off AP as a cap. I then dug a hole maybe 30 cm deep and buried the charge and put about 40-50 kilos off rock on top.

I have put up the movies for you to compare the power. (Unfortunatly i can't direktlink, but if you go to the page you will find them, the 700gr in the middle off the page and the 1200gr in the bottom.)

700 grams in a baggie, without confinement. http://earth.prohosting.com/andyboy2/movies.html

1200 grams in a pvc-pipe, buried. http://earth.prohosting.com/andyboy2/movies3.html

[xyz]

The bandwidth allowance has been exceeded for that site, try to use a different host.

I think DBSP has made an account somewhere for all forum members to use.

[andyboy]

Well i tried edititing my post but i couldn't, so ill post the new links here

http://w1.315.telia.com/~u31531901/annmal700.wmv
http://w1.315.telia.com/~u31531901/annmal1200.wmv

[blindreeper]

Damn boy, those are some nice videos. But why were you so close to the detonation of the 1200g charge when there was huge rocks being hurled around!

[andyboy]

I wasn't close to the explosion, my camera was :D

I made a camera-casing from 8mm plexiglass so i could get better movies then the ones i made before, i just put the camera on any good branch and i have a portable uni-pod (instead off a large and bulky tripod), sort off.

Picture off the cameracasing: http://w1.315.telia.com/~u31531901/photocase.jpg

Sizecomparison: http://w1.315.telia.com/~u31531901/annmal1200comp1.jpg

I'm not postwhoring i just can't seem to edit my previous posts.

[blindreeper]

You can't edit after a certain amount of time thats why :)
Sorry I can't see the pics even after copy and pasting them. Still seeing the size of some of those rocks getting hurled about makes me wonder if I would risk a expensive camera. But if you feel comfortable don't stop!

[andyboy]

Strange that you can't see the pics, they are up and they work fine for me. Don't even have to copy-paste. If you where to see the pics you would see that the camera is sitting safely in the plexicasing. The branch i put the camera on was selected so it bends rather then resists. So if a rock where to hit the camera, the branch (and camera) would bend down instead of getting the full power off the rock. In theory atleast :D

Edit: My dog is there for comparison reasons, i didn't blow him up (he was also out to take a dump, but that's not important)

[Blackhawk]

Well the pictures work well now, strange I looked at them before and they didn't work. Anyway am I supposed to be able to see the camera in the second shot?

[Nuclear]

Most people just use a 50/50 mix of AN/AP to be fuse sensitive.

[xyz]

The correct term is "flame sensitive" and as little as 20-25% AP will still be flame sensitive.

However, it is much easier and safer to make a charge of cap sensitive ANFO and use a few grams of AP as a detonator. Compare the price of AP (about $30AUD per kilogram) with the price of AN (about $0.75AUD per kilogram) and you will see why a flame sensitive APAN mix is only useful in very small charges. It is also unsafe to make that amount of AP.

The only use that I have found for flame sensitive mixtures of AP and AN (or KNO3) is in salutes and very small charges of less than 10g.

[Nuclear]

Sorry I meant flame sensitive, but yeah your right I have never seen more then 10 grams of AP detonated, unless someone is stockpiling it, lol I think andyboy has did a lot of that AP, and AN mixtures but im not sure if hes ever did more then 10g of straight AP.

[Ammonal]

I detonated 24.5 grams of AP last night with fairly dissapointing results (the AP was 9 days old and I dont like to keep it 'just lying around') It filled a 1/2" ID plastic whiteboard marker with 3" of pressed AP. I drilled a hole in moist but hard ground and lit the fuse, the charge was 5" underground, as I was running for my life I tripped on a piece of netting on the ground and fell arse over ended up a whole 15 feet from the charge when it went off. I fell and rolled around on the ground to look at the detonation, it was loud but but not like the kind of loud I was expecting from the charge (my previous biggest charge was 6grams) there was a big thump and clods (lumps) of dirt about the size of grapefruit were falling for about 3-4m away from the blast.
My old man later told me that he heard the boom from about a kilometre away :D
The crater would be about 7" in diameter and about 8-9" deep with a bell shape spreading towards the surface.

That was all beside the point, what I meant to ask was had anyone had success using plain Nitram/Fuel Oil mix?I have been using 'cold pack' AN with success. But I am wondering if anyone has had success with just powdering the fertiliser grade and mixing oil?

EDIT: completely forgot to add the other half of my post :confused:

[FinnBell]

I just had a dream I detonated the biggest charge of just straight AP I've ever done. Straight AP scares the hell out of me due to its extreme sensitivity so I thought I would take pics since I probably won't be doing this large of an amount again. I dont have a digital scale so I really have no clue how many grams it was. I used an empty antibiotics bottle filled to the top, it was packed lightly and set off with a fuse about 2 feet long. In the setup pic you can see that I put some bricks around it and put the television in front of it. Well just check out the pics. Im not really sure how to post the pics on the forum so heres the
URL: http://members.aol.com/mrpapageorgio36

[xyz]

Fertilizer AN works fine so long as there are not too many impurities in it. The tests at the top of this post all used fertilizer grade AN. I am not sure how pure Nitram is (I used a different brand, never seen Nitram) but so long as it is over about 95%, then you should be fine. If it is less pure than that, it will still work but it will be less powerful and less sensitive.

[Ammonal]

Thanks XYZ, the Nitram I have is 32% available Nitrogen as Nitrate form; so as to how much of the fertiliser is actually AN - I dont have a clue. One thing I do know is that you can grind up straight Nitram to a powder and mix with charcoal, this comp has a name, but anyways it makes a terrific amount of smoke - so I am speculating that the percentage of AN in the fertiliser is reasonably high and the other contaminants do not affect this combustion AN/Charcoal low explosive mix.

[Boomer]

Pure urea has 47% N, pure AN has 35%, other nitrates 16% or lower. 32% N means you have 90% AN + 10% lime, which is good, or 80% AN and 20% ammonium sulphate, which is not so good as it is harder to separate. The best thing I get here is 27% N = 77% AN + 23% lime. You pour the whole 50 kilo bag a hot bathtub and let the lime settle, then evaporate the solution, which can mostly be sucked up, a rest must be filtered. But at 15 Cent per pound I use the muddy layer for the garden. If you have sulphate in it, look for the thread on how to purify AN, there must be one IIRC.

[andyboy]

Originally posted by Nuclear
I think andyboy did a lot of AP, and AN mixtures but im not sure if hes ever did more then 10g of straight AP.

Well, the largest AP-charge was about 90 grams. I did it when i started out, didn't really understand what i was doing at the time.

Since then i got to understand that AP is quite sensitive so i moved on to AN based explosives.

Still having troubles getting my AN/WAX to work though, i used a large (oversized) booster and everything but i only got a partial det.

I do however think that i will try AN/FO to ring in the new year, about 15 kg will do i think :D
I got this old pressure boiler at work that will do very nicely i think. It is a nice pot made of steel with a I.D of about 30 cm. I was planning on using a PVC-pipe in the middle of the pot to hold my booster (AN/NM/AL). Movies will be up whenever i get the time.

Now, the question: Someone posted that i shouldn't use AL in AN based explosives because it lowers the VOD, is this true?

[xyz]

Aluminium lowers the VoD slightly but also increases the power, ANFO/AL mixes work fine and usually perfom better that standard ANFO mixes. The only disadvantage being increased cost ( ANFO is usually dirt cheap but Al is expensive).

[plutonium233]

I have a question about detonation of a ANFO mixture consisting of about a kilogram of Ammonium Nitrate with 50ml of Diesel as an ANFO. Will a small pipebomb type device work to detonate it. The pipebomb is a capped iron pipe with a fuse hole in the middle and filled with standard black powder.

Thanks
Kyle

[blindreeper]

You probably won't be around much longer to see this but I will go ahead anyway. ANFO is a bitch to detonate which means it needs a lot of "grunt" to get going. A pipe bomb with BP will make a bang by the pipe bursting. This will not detonate ANFO. You need a primary explosive such as Acetone Peroxide (AP) AP detonates without being in a pipe bomb. So you could have a nice pile on the ground and ignight it and it will detonate. You can use a primary explosive to detonate less stubborn things like ANNM in a blasting cap. This still will not set off ANFO (unless it is the low density cap sensative ANFO as mentioned in this thread). The blasting cap needs to detonate what we call a booster charge. This can be ANNM, APAN, TNP ect. The detonation of these boosters will detonate the ANFO.

In short your pipe bomb won't do it :)

Well thats my crappy run down of your situation. If you are around to see this and make another post, don't sign your message with your name. Its not like your writing a letter to anyone. The fact that your user name is displayed means you don't have to.

[xyz]

I am getting really annoyed with this, he must be the 999999999999th kewl to come in and ask "Can I detonate ANFO with a pipe bomb/firecracker/fuse/sparkler/CO2 Bomb/bottle of Draino/other kewlish device?"

I think we may have to start introducing a compulsory 2 week ban for all kewls asking that question.

[nbk2000]

Just like how a diamond is forever, so too is HED. :)

No two week respite for their stupidity...forever. :D

[ShadowAlchemist]

Howdy Fellas,
I saw the ANFO thread and just had to share my experience i created 2 weeks ago.
Me and my good pyro buddy BOB, have been researching for a while how to detonate ANFO with minimal effort and with limited materials.
RDX was decided upon quickly because of the ease required to make the shit. I worked in the camping industry for a while, so hexamine fuel tablets were cheap and plentiful :) So was nitric acid!
Anyways im sure you all know how to make rdx, so i wont bore you with the procedure.
We then wondered how to detonate the rdx, seeing as it needs a decent shockwave to be passed through it. Flash powder was brought up, so we weighed up pros/cons etc and decided to give it a whirl(we used aluminium powder/potassium permanganate)
Well it worked fuckin great! We detonated about 3KG of ANFO with the flash/rdx chain reaction and we blew the fuck out of a car we pinched a couple of days earlier :) I cant remember exactly how much rdx we used...around 250g i think and about 1kg of flash.
Packed flash into PVC pipe which had a smaller pipe within, which conatined compressed rdx!
Of course that was nested in a bigger pipe with ammonium nitrate and kero.
We electronically ignited a fuse which started the whole show...from a very safe distance may i add!
In a 2 words...FUCKIN AWESOME!!! definately worth writing about!!
Well thats my 2 cents, look forward to talkin to you guys more in detail.
Mitch

[xyz]

No, I meant that anyone who asked that question received a mandatory 2 week ban, and the more extreme cases received HED.

For example, the guy who asked that question hasn't been banned.

[Efraim_barkbit]

Those who asks a question like plutonium233 deserves, and should recieve, instant HED.

[nbk2000]

And so it came to pass................:D

[atlas#11]

I have read about an/wax mixtures a bit and was wondering if petroleum jelly would substitute for a poor mans c-4. any way, i notice most of you use ap in detonators, do any of you use hmtd? i have heard that it preforms well but have not heard any first hand experiences. makes loud bangs any way.

[metal dragon]

I am not sure about this but the petroleum jelly would be extremely OB- and it would probably make it so the explosive won’t detonate. Why don’t you just make some ANNM plastic (an + nm + dbsp) this would give the desired plastic like effect. Or even easier press the ANWAX in to a tube the detonate it. HMTD and AP are mostly interchangeable in detonators. 2g of each substance would equally to the power of a commercial 8 cap at least. So yes you could detonate it with HMTD but most people use ap because it is just easier to make.

[blindreeper]

ShadowAlchemist, what you "did" (I have a hard time believing that bull shit about he 1kg of flash and 250g RDX) is probably nothing more than a large flash salute! The idea of setting off a secondary is to use LESS primary to set off MORE secondary. If anything happened it was just the flash :p

HMTD tends to be used less because of the mentioned ease of AP but HMTD is not compatible with metals and most caps are made from a metal of some sort.

[MrMagnum]

HMTD is not as unstable as AP and therefore safer to handle. Maybe it's best to use 0.5grams of HMTD in a plastic cap to set off a larger plastic cap with nitrocellulose as a booster charge. This would be a safe and reliable device for setting off ANFO.

[atlas#11]

I have had a hard time finding nm around here so i will just stick to kerosene. i have heard that anfo has a relativly low vod but is it still sutible for shaped charges? I have a lot of annoying boulders waiting to be reduced to gravel around here.

[MrMagnum]

The vod of ANFO is around 2.500m/s to 3.500m/s. It depends mainly on the load density, the composition and the diameter and weight of the charge. ANFO needs a large diameter for reaching its maximum velocity compared to other explosives. So it should be suitable for large and heavy shaped charges but not for small ones.

[palpy]

Well, it's not mainly a problem of critical diameter, but rather the VoD. You won't get any considerable results using ANFO in SCs. A shaped charge needs an explosive with a minimum VoD of 6.000m/s. Otherwise the cumulation beam will just not form. Theoretically, the cumulation exists even when using BP!, but the result are simply immeasurable.
ANNM would definitely be a better choice. And if it's still not enough, use RDX or PETN plasticised with blasting gelatin :)

[atlas#11]

I see. i can always get more an. also it didn't seem like any one had tried that petroleum jelly AN mix so i decided to do it my self, it worked well, a 30-40 gram charge with about 5 grams hmtd mixed in with it placed about a foot down in partialy frozen earth threw about 5-10 lbs of mud in the air, and made a nice sized hole in the ground. i only used like a gram or so of hmtd in an aluminum 1/4" tube(wax coated). It didn't seem like an impartial det either. somebody else should try this and see if they get decient results.

[kingspaz]

ANFO is not suitable for shaped charges. its just not brisant enough.

[atlas#11]

oh well. i'll just use more for boulders then. i plan to make tnp soon but am looking for a hot plate. This is a little off topic but is it really nessicary to heat the acid mixture? and when neutralizing it seeing as how tnp it's self is an acid wouldn't it affect the final product?

[kingspaz]

you've answered your own question. if you neutralise an acid you'll get the salt of the acid. so no, TNP synths with a neutralisation step are incorrect. also, heating is necessary. why would a synthesis including a heating step if it was't necessary? heating must be carried out in order to sulphonate the benzene ring prior to nitration. search and you'll find more.

now, back on topic.

[atlas#11]

well thats just what to expect from totse. any way so anfo is mostly a heave explosive hence it's use in open pit mining and such. o.k. still cheap and fun though. maby when i get more caps i'll take out a tree or something. scare the shit out of my neighbors. BTW, i have heard that aluminum powder increases the brissance of anfo. is it enough to even wory about or is it worth while? all i have is atomized and i know it wont help but i am making an order with pyrotek soon and wanted to know if it was worth throwing in. also, i found a cheap source of glassware, http://www.freyscientific.com they mostly supply to schools but normal people can order glass ware and stuff just not chems. their site dosent have a full product list but if you order their catalog you'll see that their much cheaper than allbuchem and others.

[xyz]

Aluminium usually lowers brisance slighlty but increases power. I am not sure about it's effects on ANFO though. Atomized aluminum should be fine so thereis no need to go out and buy some 600mesh flake Al. Even if the aluminium does increase the brisance, it won't increase it by nearly enough for use in shaped charges.

[blindreeper]

Aluminium and other metallic fuel such as zinc and magnesium also increase heat out put. Maybe it would be a good explosive to use in FAE's due to the need of heat to ignight the fuel?

[atlas#11]

i didn't realize that zinc was reactive enough to be used but then again HE's release alot of energy i have plenty of zinc so i'll try it. Sorry about frey's being so inaccesable just go to their glass ware sale link in products and click on entire list of glass ware products. my computer is slow so it took a while to load it. That's not all they carry but whats on sale and the sale is over anyway just request the catalog. i think it's free.

[blindreeper]

There is a pdf floating around the net entitiled "ANNM.pdf" I am not sure who made it but I has pictures and info on ANNM with the addtion of metal powders; more specificly zinc :) I may give PNNMZn a whirle sometime but with this carbomb shit going on :mad:

[ShadowAlchemist]

It looks like that carbomb incident is going to force the federal government to enforce restrictions on the sale of AN, AS etc. They obviously can't ban it for obvious reasons, but I heard they want to try and make all 'customers' show photo id. I am guessing it will all go into some nationwide database somewhere along the line but it is not like people are buying large quantities every day to arouse suspicion. They have now introduced photo ID laws when purchasing sudafed tablets, but there are still ways to counteract that. Most rural supply stores dont give two shits about what you want AN for..as long as you pay cash ;)
Sorry, should have searched water cooler first!

[blindreeper]

What is wrong with sudafed tablets? They are jsut a common cold treatment IIRC. No reason to ban that.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

They contain pseudoephedrine which is used to make meth. Now lets get this back on topic.

[atlas#11]

on topic again, i have heard of #2 desile, kerosine, hydrazine, gasoline, benzene, nitromethane and wax being used in AN explosives. now aside from NM and hydrazine which one makes the most powerfull explosive in terms of calories per gram? and what are the best proportions by weight for the kerosine mixture?

[kingspaz]

use your chemistry. petrol, kerosine, benzene and wax are all hydrocarbons. thus the most dense will contain the most energy per gram. as they are all hydrocarbons they are comparable in this way.

[Bert]

Er, the most dense may give most energy per VOLUME. Most energy per gram may have more to do with energy released by oxidation of the constituents- A little trickier to figure!

[xyz]

Atlas, UTFSE.

There are untold hordes of people who ask the "How much fuel in ANFO?" question. I will tell you that it is between 3% and 7% by weight depending on the fuel and the desired sensitivity. Less fuel means more sensitivity but less power.

Please search next time and if you have any questions about the above, use the search engine to answer them.

[powdermunkey]

I'd be cautious about putting zinc powder with AN. The slightest amount of water will make this mixture heat up and decompose. If you use an oxygen balanced mixture, it will easily auto-ignite from atmospheric moisture. Aluminum is lots safer because of the oxide coating on Al particles.

[Xioa]

I was looking at the shelves at work, and noticed an interesting item in the form of a drain opener. Specifically the Draino Foamer drain cleaner. The only ingredient listed was sodium dichloroisocyanurate.This is very interesting. I think I will be trying this out soon. IIRC, Draino Foamer is a 2 part kit, seperated in the bottle. Would you use both parts or is one part more desirable than the other?

[NightStalker]

.................................................. .

[Myrol]

I know the following words sounds like huge kewl but since my 8kg ANFO Charge im planning on a 20kg 93% AN 7%Fuel Charge (+-5kg Explosive). The only problem: Whats the best way to use the Charge without a horrible Thunder like i had with my 8kg.......Probably 3m under the Earth?? or 15m under Water?? Some Ideas are very welcome :) because i didnt want the local press and the bombsquad at the Crater like the last time... :(

[Cyclonite]

Water would work the best and require the least amount of work at 15m

[Myrol]

Thanks Cyclonite! Send the Exploding Charge under 15m Water also a Shockwave like on surface or not to deep burried?

[Cyclonite]

Im not sure what you're asking. A charge in water will produce a larger shockwave because of the median it travels through. When it changes medians it will lose power.

[Myrol]

Umm i want to know if i can feel a Shockwave after the Charge is exploded? Im not expierienced in deep Waterdetonations so thats why i asked you this!

[blindreeper]

If you are planning on being udnerwater when a charge goes off underwater also you will probably end up like the fish when someone does dynamite fishing - dead. Not a smart idea.

But if the charge is int he water and you are on the land you don't feel the shockwave as much, in my experience anyway.

[Guerilla]

I don't have experience with that big charges, but when I've set off some charges underwater (just a few meters deep) there has been a sharp shock on the rocky ground I've stood on..it's quite cool when you see the shockwave as a white flash, hear the thud sound and feel the bump..there's also quite a high water jet up in the air after the shockwave hits the surface.

Be aware that such a big charge in a small pond (it probably isn't very small if you are able to sink it that deep, though) can have a drastical effect on the fish population, even though it wouldn't kill all of them instantly.

[Myrol]

Yes i know, I hate it to kill innocent fishes :rolleyes: I have no reason to be so harsh to them, but what should I do? Water and Fishes are like a Chemist and Chemicals ;) I take the Charge place it into the deepest point who exist and press the Trigger on my Detonator (not the Cap!)....The Fishes.....they swim Numb, dead and comprimated slowly to the surface.....15kg ANFO oh dear....a fountain of Water should fly 40m high. The Idea to stay in the pond whilst the Charge explode sounds like a deathwish! Its crazy because the Shockwave under Water is so fucking awesome that you get never happy again after you did it really (me 100pro NOT!). These test (im relatively sure to do it under Water :D ) is planned for summer! I have acces to a nice Digicamcorder! If everything works ok, the Vid is comming soon :D :D Myrol

[clandestine]

SEARCH BEFORE POSTING OR BE BANNED!

[freaky_frank]

*eeee* wrong answer.
< sarcasm >
Go to Totse, and ask there how to mix them....it's very very dangerous to mix NH4NO3 with NG, b/c a very little friction or shock will set of the NG and blow your whole neighboorhoud away....
< /sarcasm > :rolleyes:

[The_Duke]

Today I successfully detonated a 1KG prilled ANFO charge in a coffee can using a home-made cap consisting of 0.8g PETN base and 0.4 HMTD. I used 6% Mononitrotoulene as a fuel and sensitizer. Well…, I don’t actually think the MNT sensitizes the Ammonium nitrate, I think that it is the amine group carried by the AN which sensitizes the nitro group of MNT, like ANNM! Either way it produces a cap sensitive mixture that does not require a booster charge, although a booster charge would help to insure a high order and complete DTT.

[nitram3000]

I have read that using vegetable oils increases sensitivity due to the double bonds which are easier to oxidate by the freed oxygen atoms during the AN decomposition. I think soy oil and sunflower oil work the best. The best mixture for sensitivity is probably 95/5 An to oil and 15% Al by weight of the ANFO. Maybe a catalyst should be thrown in, like MnO2. This ANFO can be detonated by a 6 gram HMTD cap. Obviously the AN has to be very finely powdered and the density should be very low. So no packing of the charge.

[h0lx]

Nitram, aren't you overfueling the mix?

[Rbick]

Hes using 5% Soy Oil to 95% AN. That is about the right percentage. I have never used soy oil but Fuel Oil is most efficient at 6%, so he definatley isn't over fueling.

[Cindor]

I think h0lx was talking about the 15% Al added to the mix, plus the soybean/sunflower oil...

[truonggiang_male90]

I wonder that if we can detonate ANFO with a small shaped charge?

[nbk2000]

You forgot to mention THERMITE. :p

[stupid939]

A friend (I didn't really like him) once told me he detonated 200lbs of ANFO with an artillery shell. Maybe you could pack thermite around an artillery shell... :D