Urea Nitrate and Nitrourea...again [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

simply RED

March 8th, 2001, 06:00 PM

I've got that info on synthesis...
1. Dissolve the urea in some distiled water.
2. Cool the solution to zero or below zero degress celsius.
3. Add dropwise the nitric acid (concentration 60-70% is reported to be the best) to the cooled solution.
4. The urea nitrate will precipitate, but I don't know how much time will be need that the reaction is complete?

I also find the info I need about the urea nitrate from the last post on that thread(FBI report):
"urea nitrate has a deflagration pt of 186 [degrees]; a deton rate of 3400m/sec (at d 0.85g/cc in a 30mm diam paper tube when driven by 1.5g of MF), and 4700m/sec (at d 1.20g/cc in a 30mm diam steel tube when driven by 1.5g of MF)" MF shuld be mercury fulminate, I think?

The question about the nitrourea is still open...

ezekiel

March 9th, 2001, 04:23 PM

How about this off the top of my head...

Work out the relative atomic mass of urea (RAM).
Work out the RAM of nitric acid.

Now, using these as a guide, add an excess of nitric acid to a solution of urea at a low temperature.
Cool during the reaction.
What you now have is a solution of urea nitrate and nitric acid.

Heat this to dryness.
That will evaporate all the water and acid.
you are left with completely pure urea nitrate.

haha!
was not hard eh?

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Ezekiel

'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'

HMTD Factory

March 10th, 2001, 01:58 AM

If you have ever tried to heat dry urea nitrate you will find it never dries because
the absorbed nitric acid keeps coming out.

haha not very simple eh?

frostfire

March 10th, 2001, 11:18 AM

that adding nitric acid thing really confused me back then...
since from my experience, the UN needs to be washed/dried thorougly until it's free of acid and moisture...the problem is this thing gets soluble very easily in water that I need to use a really cold distilled water.....
it's kind of guncotton, if you don't wash it thproughly until all the acid is gone, then it cannot be detonated...
BTW, to evaporate nitric acid the crystal has to flap over again and again since that stuff is very sticky to the crystal...

Mr Cool

March 12th, 2001, 02:12 PM

Surely guncotton is EASIER to detonate when contaminated with acid? The reason it's washed until neutral is to make it MORE stable.

PHILOU Zrealone

March 15th, 2001, 09:29 AM

UN is unsoluble in acetone , ether and ethanol so use your brains!
When a substance is soluble in a media , you incorporate slowly a solvant 100% miscible with this media in which the desired compound is unsoluble....it precipitates out.
I would recommand
1)to concentrate as far as possible the urea nitrate/HNO3 and H2O
2)to add aceton to the solution until it turns milky under stirring; then add a little ethanol and ether....let precipitate and then filtrate most of the UN will be cristallised/precipitated (the nitric acid will stay in solution!!!)
3)wash the precipitate with aceton (to remove water and HNO3, then wash with ether and allow to dry (evaporate the ether) in a warm dry place (CAUTION ETHER IS SOPORIFIC AND EXPLOSIVE/FLAMMABLE WHEN MIXED WITH AIR).

You make always troubles where there is no problem....learn more, read a lot about basic properties of compounds!Or simply ask http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
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simply RED

April 7th, 2001, 05:52 PM

I made some urea nitrate(300 grams)! The formula is correct(PHILOW is right) and washing with acetone makes it easier to dry. I tried 250 grams...It gived very good detonation! The detonator was 10grams AP(pressed in starter for luminiscent lamp), the bomb diameter was 5.5cm. The detonation was complete, BOOOOOOM!!!!!

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HAPPY BURNDAY, SWEETHARD!

simply RED

April 10th, 2001, 03:21 PM

This is the whole process, it works fine(I'm really sorry I can't provide photos).

1. Dissolve 10 grams urea in some water(20-30 ml, I haven't got the table of dissolving and put water until it dissolved. Dissolve the urea in very small ammount of water to have a good yield! During dissolving the temperature will fall!
2. Put 23 grams 50% HNO3 in a jar for example and drop it's temperature to zero degrees celsius.
3. Mix the urea solution with the nitric acid and white precipitate will form immediately, wait some minutes to precipitate the whole ammuont urea nitrate and filter it ( I used t-shirthttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif ).
4. Wash the urea nitrate with small quantity of water, and then with 4-5 ml acetone.
5. Put the urea nitrate on nylon (thick layer), (polyethylene bag works well, don't use paper cause the urea nitrate is acidic and will corode the paper). Dry the explosive at 40 degrees for example(i used 40 degrees, don't know the optimal temperature), for 4-5 hours.

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HAPPY BURNDAY, SWEETHARD!

simply RED

July 1st, 2001, 01:45 PM

I just detonated 1kilo urea nitrate. It take me 2 days to make it(drying was the most dofficult). It gived good resaults. 20cm crater in not hard carbonate rock and the grass and the upper layer soil was blown in diameter 2 meters. I put it in paint bucket(in its bottom there was dried paint which made it less effective on the rock). The booster was 50 grams acetone peroxide, put on the top of the device. The detonator was electric...

Mr Cool

July 1st, 2001, 06:39 PM

Look in the post about hexamine dinitrate, methylene dinitramine etc for a bit more info on NU and DNU. DNU sounds very good, once converted to the ammonium salt for stability.

Detonator

July 2nd, 2001, 03:50 AM

from : United States Patent 4,634,721

Preparation of urea nitrate

Into a 2000 ml 3-necked flask equipped with a mechanical stirrer and a thermometer was introduced 1500 ml glacial acetic acid.

The stirrer was turned on and 112.5 g of urea was added all at once. When all the urea had dissolved, 180 cc of concentrated nitric acid was qradually added over a five minute period. Crystals formed almost immediately. Application of a water bath kept the temperature under 25.degree. C. The mixture was allowed to stir overnight. The white crystalline product was filtered on a sintered glass funnel under suction, and the resulting filter cake was washed with several separate portions of benzene (total of 300 ml) The product was dried in air at room temperature. The yield of 218.6 g represents 94% of theory. The product melted at 159.degree. C.
End
Why they used glacial acetic acid?

Mr Cool

July 2nd, 2001, 04:01 PM

Maybe to moderate the reaction without diluting the acid, to make it easier to crystalise the product.

More from FEMFEP:

Nine (9.0) grams of urea nitrate was added portionwise
to 32 ml of ice cold (-3 centigrades) concentrated sulfuric acid at such a
rate that the temperature did not exceed 5 centigrades. Total time for
addition was approximately one-half hour, after which the mixture was
poured on 75 grams of ice (Edit: pour into 150mL of -5*C ethanol to avoid water?). The white precipitate was filtered, washed with
ice cold water (Edit: ethanol?), just sufficient to cover it, and air dried. Material
obtained weighed 5.3 grams and melted with decomposition at 157-158 centi-
grades. (lit. 158-159 centigrades).

I would suggest washing with ethanol or isopropyl alcohol or something other than water, since water decomposes NU into UN.

ALENGOSVIG1

July 2nd, 2001, 04:45 PM

If it only detonates at 3400-4500 m/s, then i think anfo would be a better choice because of low cost. methylsoyate type anfo detonates at 3845 m/s. this may not be as good as 4500 m/s but it would cost about 15 cents per pound.

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Detonator

July 9th, 2001, 03:10 AM

What if you add fuel to UN like ANFO?

simply RED

July 9th, 2001, 08:14 PM

I tried the process of converting UN to nitrourea but it didn't work(i used the process with the sulfuric acid and then water). I don't think it will be wise to add mixed sulfuric acid and UN to IPA. It may resault in fire/explosion. The temperature must be extremely low.
The UN has negative oxigen balance(H2O-CO-CO2) and it is not good to add C-H fuel. Alluminium is a good additive since it is energetic. Adding 5-10% maybe good.

Detonator

July 18th, 2001, 02:34 AM

Anyone tried to set off Urea Nitrate?
can anyone tell us about his experiment?

cutefix

July 18th, 2001, 05:03 AM

I did try to set off 250grams of urea nitrate. made by a friend sometime ago..It was not packed so well in a small pvc pipe sealed at both end with just a hoke to fit the cap;but it really reduced the pipe into several small pieces.I used a # 8 commercial blasting cap connected to a 1 meter time fuse.Its explosion is similar to ANFO not sharp .The shockwave it generated is not as skin numbing as the one made with 100 grams of PETN extracted from surplus detonating cord.-which make you twitch. The shrapnel from pvc with the petn was finer in particle size and it made a hole in the concrete floor about 10cm deep and 30cm wide.The urea nitrate just cracked and dented the cement floor.

[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited July 18, 2001).]

simply RED

July 18th, 2001, 08:08 PM

Comparing urea nitrate and PETN is not wise. PETN is a lot more powerful. What do you think, will PETN make only 20 cm crater in some shit carbonate rock?
Urea nitrate is similar to low powerful ammonites, it is more powerful than ANFO. It is more sensitive than ANFO. It is very phugass. UN has very low brizance...

cutefix

July 19th, 2001, 07:44 AM

Simply Red,I'm sorry that I offend you by belittling the power of UN,I still would say that you are right UN is better than ANFO because it is more sensitive.
I think the power of UN is dependent on the packing on the container it is used.At maximum packing pressure it gives higher power than ANFO.Powerful explosives are also similar;higher density means more VOD.
I just have better adrenaline rush or¡¨ High¡¨ at the sound and explosive effect of these Military HE like PETN,RDX and other similar explosive composition.

cutefix

August 20th, 2001, 12:08 AM

I admit I am not a big fan of UN and NU yet these explosives are easier to make with common ingredients.In my search with ammonium dinitramide I encounter a procedure for making it.I copied it on behalf of those interested with it.Check it from US Patent 5,659,080
A. Urea Nitrate-
In a 100 ml beaker was placed a solution of 50 grams of 33% diluted nitric acid, and to this solution was added 14 grams of urea in small portions while stirring vigorously. For this period of time, since the temperature does not show any rise practically, this reaction can be carried out in room temperature and is not necessary to be kept cool. Immediately urea nitrate resulted as crystals. Having been allowed to stand for 10 minutes, the mixture was filtered to collect the crystals. This crystals were washed with a little amount of water to remove the solution well and were then dried in a desiccator under vacuum. The yield resulted in 23.8 grams of urea nitrate (97% yield), whose melting point was measured to be 162.degree. C.
B.Nitrourea-
84 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid was placed in a 200 ml three-necked flask equipped with a thermometer and a stirrer, and was cooled to -3.degree. C. To this acid was added and dissolved 23.8 grams of urea nitrate in small portions while stirring. Having been stirred for 30 minutes, the reaction mixture was poured on 150 grams of crushed ice. The resulted crystals were filtered, were washed with a little amount of water for twice, and were dried in a desiccator under vacuum. The yield resulted in 16.2 grams of nitrourea (72.4% yield), whose melting point was measured to be 159.degree. C. Since nitrourea dissolves easily in water, its yield is improved more by taking sufficient care when washing with cold water.
--------------------------------------------
Other Uses of Nitrourea:
Nitrourea can be also used to make ammonium dinitramide.
RDX and HMX- through the DAPT intermediate; formed by the reaction of nitrourea and formalin .

[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited August 19, 2001).]

Mr Cool

September 6th, 2001, 04:23 PM

I just fucked up a reaction to make nitrourea: I cooled 20mL of conc. H2SO4 to about -5*C, and then added 5 grams of UN, while stirring. However, since I had no ice handy I had to cool the H2SO4 in the freezer, and I had to take it out to add the UN. And this small amount of H2SO4 heated up quickly in the room, so the temperature reached 12*C at one point, and I think this was bad...
When poured onto a small amount of crushed ice, a small amount of VERY SLIGHTLY creamy white precipitate was formed (1 or 2 grams maybe), along with quite a lot of an unidentified gas.
The product dissolves quite readily in acetone, that's the only test I have done so far...
But I still have about three pounds of UN to test, and I can make more so I'll keep trying until I get it right...

I STILL haven't managed to find an accurate VoD for NU...

simply RED

September 7th, 2001, 09:28 AM

NU detonates at about 7000m/s this is the highest detspeed it can achieve. It has lead test of about 310cc.(300 for TNT). I always have had absolutely crappy yield when trying to make NU with H2SO4. Maybe by acid was not 98% buy 96-94%...
I did the fallen tests in -2 degrees.

CodeMason

September 7th, 2001, 12:09 PM

UN can probably be formed under the following reaction:

NH4NO3 + CO(NH2)2 -> CO(NH2)2·HNO3 + NH3

Or what about adding dilute nitric acid to piss? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by CodeMason (edited September 07, 2001).]

cutefix

September 8th, 2001, 01:52 AM

It can form urea nitrate,but very dilute,therefore it may not separate.I think it is better to boil the urine to concentrate it before adding nitric acid.

There is an alternative way of preparing nitrourea directly from urea by another process:
1)Place in a 1-2L round bottom reaction flask 425 gram H2SO4(sp.gr.1.84).Place this reaction vessel in a ice bath (orsalt/ice bath or any suitable cooling bath) in order to obtain acid temperature of 0-3C.
2)Add 60gram urea gradually,keeping the temperature between 0-3C.
3)While maintaining at the same temperature,100grams of HNO3(70%) was added slowly within 30 minutes(while stirring).
4) Pour the reaction mixture into 520 grams of ice(stirring vigorously).Precipitation of Nitrourea will occur.Filter it out…

Approximately 55%NU yield based on urea will be obtained.

Mr Cool

September 8th, 2001, 07:14 AM

I tried the NH4NO3 + CO(NH2)2 reaction, it didn't seem to work. I dissolved 6g of urea in about 6-7mL of water, and added a solution of 8g of ammonium nitrate in 10mL of water. No precipitate. I gently boiled the solution for a few minutes, to see if I could get rid of the ammonia, none came out (I couldn't smell it). After cooling to room temperatue, still no precipitate. I acidified it with 15% HCl to see if this would react with the NH4+ and let the NO3- react with the H+ from the HCl and the urea, but I don't think it worked. Maybe it introduced too much water for the product to crystalise, maybe it made urea hydrochloride.

CodeMason

September 8th, 2001, 08:17 AM

Mr Cool, follow this procedure, only instead of dicyanodiamide, use urea: http://nettrash.com/users/megalomania/explo/guanidine_nitrate.html

Mr Cool

September 8th, 2001, 05:43 PM

Thanks, I'll try it.

That's brought up another subject: does anyone know where to get guanidine, dicyanodiamide, guanidine nitrate, calcium carbamide etc to make guanidine nitrate/nitroguanidine from? Or how to make any of these?

CodeMason

September 8th, 2001, 09:31 PM

Guanidine/guanidine nitrate used to be obtained from bat and seagull guano. Maybe treating bird shit with sulfuric is the ticket?
I have seen calcium cyanamide/dicyanamide on dedicated fertilizer sites, I doubt you could order from them though, they all seem to be in Asia.

cutefix

September 9th, 2001, 06:37 AM

For preparation of guanidine nitrate,it is available in KIBC also here:
http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/guanidine.html

Mr Cool

September 9th, 2001, 08:25 AM

Thanks, if I can get the calcium cyanamide that will help. But I don't fancy all the work with a furnace, lime and ammonia! Too much work, for an explosive that isn't very spectacular.

Alchemist

September 9th, 2001, 02:13 PM

Hello all,

I have tried to get Calcium Cyanamide (Lime/Nitrogen) from a BIG agriculture supplier in the US (Calif.) and they said it was not used in the US anymore. They do sell Bat and Seagull guano VERY cheaply though if someone has a good way extracting the Cyanamide PLEASE let us all know. Bye for now!

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Mr Cool

September 10th, 2001, 04:56 PM

IIRC (probably wrong!) they dissolved it in water and filtered out all the bits of plant/insect or whatever it is they eat, and then precipitated it with H2SO4. Then they treated this with Na2CO3 to get Na2SO4 and the guanidine, which could be purified by recrystalisation. I'm not sure if that's right and I can't remember any specifics, but if it's cheap you could try it!

Detonator

September 16th, 2001, 03:54 AM

Can UN be plasticized by adding a percent of parafin oil ?

When it is dissolved in Aceton and Etheyl Alchohol then filtered out there is alot of UN wasted!!! maybe using Benzene is better?

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Live with victory or die with honour

Alchemist

September 18th, 2001, 02:53 AM

Hello all,

Thanks Mr. Cool! Anyone else have any more info on extraction of Guanidine to add to Mr. Cool's before I really try it! Like percent of yield, process, etc..? Thanks!

simply RED

September 20th, 2001, 10:49 AM

btw: I tried the nitrourea preparation from H2SO4 but it failed again. That process seems bad...

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NO PROPER PROCEDURE, NO RULES OF WAR
NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCE
NO LAWYERS FEES, NO SECOND CHANCE!
SEPULTURA

Hex

September 20th, 2001, 11:15 AM

RED,

I've never tried that particular preparation, but whenever I've made dinitrourea it's only worked with a really fresh bottle of sulphuric or 30% oleum (even though the patented prep. claims 95% sulphuric is ok). I guess this might be a similar problem. (if you can) try it with 50/50 oleum/sulphuric and see how it goes.

Mr Cool

September 20th, 2001, 04:08 PM

Do you think that's due to hydrolysis? I can't imagine that 5% water in your H2SO4 would cause much of a problem, as long as you're using v.v. conc. HNO3. Yields will suffer, but you should get something.

I think NGuanidine is a better choice than NUrea if you can get the guanidine, from what I've heard it's more stable and yields are substantially higher.
This weekend I'll be trying a few reactions with urea and ammonia, in an attempt to make guanidine (and water). I have no idea if it'll work, but I might as well try. I think you might need to heat it, in which case the theroetical temp. needed might be higher than the deconmposition temp. of the urea, or the guanidine produced. Or maybe it just won't work.
Any thoughts?

CodeMason

September 20th, 2001, 07:53 PM

Yes! DNU will rapidly autocatalytically decompose into nothingness if even a minute amount of water gets in. This is because it hydrolizes to form NH2NO2 and CO2, the nitramide can then decompose into H2O and N2O, thus creating more water for hydrolysis and continuing the cycle. This decomposition can become more than a nusance, it can generate enough heat to cause self-detonation! If you make this explosive, store it in a dessicator (a container that keeps the water out, so could have a tube leading into a vat of sulfuric acid.
It can be formed by making 20ml of a 50:50 mix of 95% sulfuric acid and 100% nitric (you could probably use a metal nitrate instead, as long as your sulfuric is good enough), then cooling the solution to 0°C, and adding 3g of urea. Don't let the temperature rise above 5°C, and let it stand for an hour. A white ppt should form, filter it out and wash with something other than water and dry under vacuum.

CodeMason

September 20th, 2001, 08:01 PM

Check it, here are some of my nifty ASCII structural formulas (steal them and I will find you and I will hurt you http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif):
Urea:
    NH2
   /
O=C
   \
    NH2

For urea nitrate, the above simply gains a proton (ala ammonia-ammonium) to become a positive ion, allowing the NO3- to bond with it.

Nitrourea:
    NH-NO2
   /
O=C
   \
    NH2

Dinitrourea:
    NH-NO2
   /
O=C
   \
    NH-NO2

It's that simple. [hoping against hope that these work first time around!]

Hex

September 21st, 2001, 05:30 AM

I only make DNU for making nitramide anyway, so I deliberately hydrolyse it after I've filtered it off. If you can get rid of the acid traces, apparently DNU is quite stable. Unfortunately, the only effective way of doing this is with Trifluoroacetic acid. Acetone etc. isn't going to remove much sulphuric/nitric and alcohols are probably going to react with the DNU in a similar way to water. TFAA is the only thing that I can think of that will wash away acid and is volatile enough to be removed under vacuum itself.
Like I've said before somewhere on this forum, if you're going to try this prep, get a really good mechanical stirrer and a propeller (not a paddle).

Mr Cool

September 21st, 2001, 02:30 PM

I thought UN was held together with hydrogen bonds, with two of the O's on the HNO3 being attracted to the H's on the -NH2's of the urea?

Mr Cool

September 24th, 2001, 04:30 PM

Q: Does anyone have any information regarding the production of thiourea?

I don't think the following would work under easily obtainable conditions, but if you think it would then tell me!

CO(NH2)2 + H2S --> CS(NH2)2 + H2O ???

I'm interested in trying the nitrate/nitro compound of this. I know, more negative OB etc, but it could be interesting.

A more general Q: Why are there no (common) HE's that use sulphur as a fuel element in their makeup? Can anyone think of any that do (I'm excluding nitrogen sulphide)? Maybe some aromatics with a -CH2- or two replaced with -S-'s? Or maybe if you could make a compound like R-S-H, you could make a compound similar in structure to a nitrate ester: R-S-NO2.

Edit: I have found out that thiourea is probably a carcinogen in humans (it IS in lab test animals), and sounds quite nasty, and it's "incompatible with nitric acid". This often means some interesting things are formed... or maybe it's just decomposed.

[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited September 24, 2001).]

Hex

September 25th, 2001, 05:06 AM

I guess it's simply a cost/performance thing. The potential advantages of having a sulphur in an explosive are pretty limited, and its going to cause some expense getting it in there. Most sulphur containing compounds are going to be at risk of oxidation under nitration conditions. There may also be complications in that a shell containing such a compound may well break several conventions on account of the high toxicity of the gases it would produce (although carbon monoxide doesn't seem to cause any problems). Thionyl dipicrate was considered as an explosive for this very reason around the first world war, as a combined explosive/poison gas compound for attacking shipping. Don't think it was ever used. Would be interesting to see what a nitrated thiourea did, though - should make a lot of dense white smoke, which might be pleasing to the eye when it detonated.

CodeMason

September 25th, 2001, 08:46 AM

But due to the content of H2S, SO2, SO3 in the smoke, I doubt very pleasing to the lungs. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Thiol-nitrates would be rather powerful, but also I suspect they would be a -lot- less mechanically (shock, friction) stable.

Mr Cool

September 25th, 2001, 03:08 PM

I figured they'd have few advantages/many disadvantages for military use, I was just wondering why I'd heard of none.
Well, if I do manage to get thiourea I'll try to nitrate it.

Mr Cool

January 12th, 2002, 05:50 PM

I just made a batch of NU from UN, I thought I'd tell you how it went:

I cooled 100ml of 91% H2SO4 drain cleaner to 0*C, and weighed out 20g of UN. I added the UN to the H2SO4, 1g at a time, keeping the temperature around 3*C, and stirring vigorously. The temperature varied between 0*C and 7*C. After all the UN had been added the mixture was cloudy, I think this was due to small gas bubbles rather than solid particles. I stirred it, while still cooling, for half an hour. The liquid cleared, and was a pale yellow coulour (the H2SO4 started purple...) at the end.
I crushed 100g of ice (made with tap water), and put it into a beaker. The reaction was poured onto this ice, the NU precipitated, and an annoying foam was produced which made filtration slow. I filtered out the NU, put it on some absorbent paper to suck out some of the water, and dissolved it in 150mL of acetone. When it had all dissolved, the acetone was evapourated at about 30*C to half its original volume, and it was chilled in the freezer. The ppte was filtered out, the volume of acetone was reduced to half of its volume, and it was chilled again to ppte more crystals. The acetone was finally evapourated to 1/3rd of its volume, chilled and the ppte was filtered out.
The combined pptes were dried at 35*C, thinly spread out, for an hour.
Yield was 9.7g, 57% of theoretical. Not great, but acceptable considering how much must still be dissolved in the molten ice/left over H2SO4 and in the remainder of the acetone.

Simply RED: how did your yields compare with this?

studen

July 19th, 2002, 07:58 AM

Nitrourea is such an interesting explosive, in my own experience using a strong booster (I used 5% RDX) I found that its stronger than TNT! though this is not what refernces say.
anyway I found this info in the Explosives by Kohler:

energy of formation -614.3 Kcal/kg
enthalpy of formation -639.7 kcal/kg
N content 39.98%
Volume of detontion gases 853 l/kg
heat of explosion 923 kcal/kg
specific energy 93.0 mt/kg

fowkes.l

June 23rd, 2003, 08:37 AM

has anyone lately detonated urea nitrate?
I'm going camping and was wondering how big the detonator must be-
will 2 grams of AP be suffice to detonate 150 grams in a sealed PVC pipe.
I did a search and have found that someone detonated urea nitrate with #8 commercial detonator. Just wondering if anyone has had any experiences with this explosive.
Some advice on best detonation strategy would be appreciated.

Mr Cool

June 23rd, 2003, 02:57 PM

I'd presonally use a little more than that. Also, make sure that you press your AP well, into a tube with thin walls. It's no good just tapping it into a thick-walled tube, it won't work.
A sensitiser would be good too, a few % of NG for example. Perhaps not necessary, but it'd help.

fowkes.l

June 30th, 2003, 04:30 AM

I just tried to set off 50 grams of urea nitrate.
I placed it in a small piece of carboard tubing and sealed one end with epoxy glue. I then placed in urea nitrate and pushed it down slightly with a piece of wood. I then placed in my detonator which consisted of a 22-250 shell full to the neck with pressed AP. I'm not sure how heavy the AP weighed, but it should of been over 2 grams. (i have no accurate scales)
I placed the unit underneith some loose soil about 20 cm deep l and padded it down with my hands, I left the fuse sticking out and lit it. After 20 seconds the detonator went off, it blew the soil all over the place , the sound was not extrmely loud just sounded like a muzzled detonator, I went and expected the sight and found that there was plenty of urea nitrate powder mixed in with the soil. The casing was blown into small carboard shreds.

I make urea nitrate by adding 30 grams of urea (bought from hardware store) into 40 ml of water, I dissolve the urea and slowly add 35ml of 68% nitric acid trying to keep it cool in a ice bath, the urea nitrate immiediently forms and I filter, I wash and then dry. I made a 250 gram batch in the same ratio using 150 grams of urea, 200ml water, 175 ml nitric acid. I used 50 grams of this batch.

Can someone please give me some advice or tell me where i went wrong. Thanks

kingspaz

June 30th, 2003, 07:26 AM

i think where you went wrong could have been the thickness of the wall for the main charge. ideally this should be quite thick to contain the detonators explosion for a sufficiently long enough time for the shockwave to travel through the urea nitrate charge. if the walls are thin the detonator explosion will push the urea nitrate which will push the main charge casing outwards. if the charge casing doesn't give way then the urea nitrate would be 'held' allowing the shockwave to travel through. i think thats the way it would likely work.

where was the detonator positioned on the charge? it should preferably be in the centre.

fowkes.l

June 30th, 2003, 09:53 AM

The detonator was in the middle of the charge.
I agree with you on the wall thickness, the casing was shredded.
Do you think PVC piping would work- I read a reply once saying that urea nitrate was detonated in PVC pipe with a #8 blasting cap.
Do you think my detonator is powerful enough. I worked out tonight that i use one teaspoon of AP pressed into a 22-250 shell.
I aslo read in another reply that the thickness of the detonator should be relativley thin. Do you think that a bullet shell is to thick?

kingspaz

June 30th, 2003, 12:08 PM

i think a pvc pipe should be ok. but bind it up in tape and a few layers of card also just to increase its strength. a teaspoon of AP sounds too little. i think you should try using a single layer of card as a detonator case. and make it larger so it will hold about a table spoon of AP. make sure you press it well though but be careful.

Mumble

July 18th, 2003, 02:51 AM

I thought I would revisit the topic of UN without nitric acid. It can be done. I have completed the proceedure myself for one. A few months ago an anonymous person started sending e-mails of proceedures for various things to another board. One of which contained a synthesis of UN without nitric acid.

The following is from http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=470

Urea Nitrate is OTC quick and easy, nearly a kilo at a time in a one gallon pickle jar is a trivial procedure. Accurate measures of weights and volumes should be used for this optimized synthesis to obtain a good result. Prepare two separate solutions, 540 grams of feed grade urea in 700 ml water, and a second solution of 790 grams of ammonium nitrate in 500 ml water. Filter each solution to remove any cloudiness if desired. Mix the two solutions in a one gallon wide mouth pickle jar and place the jar into a hot water bath until the mixture reaches 80 degrees centigrade. Then remove the jar from the bath, drop in a three inch stirring bar and place the jar onto a magnetic stirrer. Add precisely 1000 ml of 31.45 per cent HCl in a fairly rapid stream, about 200 ml per minute is fine, to the rapidly stirred hot mixture. An exothermic reaction will occur over the course of the addition and the mixture will almost reach the boiling point. Allow the stirred hot mixture to steam freely to the air while it remains very hot. The moisture loss is beneficial to cooling and to crystallization which follows.

Vigorous stirring is continued, as the solution is allowed to slowly cool. After a few minutes of air cooling, the precipitation of well formed, dense crystals of urea nitrate will begin. The stirring is continued to keep the crystals in suspension for a couple of hours of additional slow air cooling. The container is loosely sealed once the mixture has ceased steaming and cooled somewhat. The further cooling is then hastened by next placing the jar into a plain water bath for an hour, followed by a cold water bath for an hour, stirring up the crystals from time to time to break up the mass of crystals. The jar then goes into the deep freeze overnight to complete the precipitation. The mixture should get cold enough to form frost on the jar when it is removed from the freezer. The crystals are stirred up a final time and the cold mixture is filtered. A method which works well is to first decant 500 ml of the cold supernatant liquid into a wash bottle, and then use this cold solution to rinse the residual crystals from the jar onto the filter. A half meter square of fify-fifty polyester cotton from an old dress shirt placed into a large funnel drained into a gallon jug is a good setup. The corners of the cloth may be gathered together, and the material twisted down tightly to squeeze a lot of residual liquid from the mass of cold crystals. The tightly compressed ball of crystals can then be placed upon a terry cloth towel to wick out most of the remaining liquid. Then the crystal cake is broken up and spread out in a layer in a heated glass tray for air drying. Yield is 935 grams of dried crystals of urea nitrate, which is 84.4 per cent of theory.

I scaled this proceedure down by 10 fold and got a yeild of aprox. 85 grams. I also used Potassium nitrate instead of the Ammonium nitrate.

simply RED

July 18th, 2003, 05:07 AM

This is more expensive method of making UN. Actaully, it yields less clear product too.
The interesting idea here is the way of overcoming the fact that urea is very weak electrolite.
In solution:
NH4NO3= (NH4+) + NO3- (NH4NO3- ionic salt- strong electrolite)
Urea + H2O =/= (UreaH+) + OH- (this reaction can not occur or occurs with low yield)
H2N-CO-NH2 + HCl => H2N-CO-NH3+ + Cl- (the free H3O+ attacks the urea molecule)
H2N-CO-NH3+ + NO3- => H2N-CO-NH3NO3 (precipitate- leaves the solution)
NH4+ and Cl- remain in solution.
So, don't make the solutuon concentrated because NH4Cl will chrystalize too.

kingspaz

July 18th, 2003, 07:39 AM

strangely enough about 3 days ago i did a similar thing to make urea nitrate but using dilute H2SO4 instead. i didn't go through the whole heating thing. i just added an excess of AN to H2SO4 then added concentrated urea nitrate solution. haven't measured the yield yet though.

Anthony

July 19th, 2003, 09:31 AM

I like the way the procedure uses pickle jars, shirt cloth filters to keep things simple and expedient and then advocates the use of a magnetic stirrer :)

Chade

November 7th, 2003, 10:38 AM

Mr Cool, Thiourea is available in the UK as Goddard's silver dip. £2.39 for 265ml of what appears to be a saturated solution. Oh, hold on there's a patent number on the side.

<later>
Having gone and looked at the patent (gb762961) it's thiourea in an acidic solution which may have a very small amount of wetting agent added. The jar says sediment may form, as it has in my jar, so I presume it's a saturated solution which tends to precipitate out some thiourea.

I'm unsure of the best way to extract it, as the details of the acid are not specified in the patent, so the acid may be left as a residue. I suspect it will most likely be sulphuric or hydrochloric though, so it should evaporate on heating.

me234

December 3rd, 2003, 05:03 AM

Over the weekend I tried to det. a 100 gr (approx.) charge of UN, was pressed around the det into a large pill bottle, det was 2/3 full teaspoons of pressed HMTD, herein lies the problem: not even a partial detonation, just a shit load of white powder around the site and a slight white "mist", any idea why no det? Do I need stronger confinement, should the UN not be pressed, it was decently pressed, not too hard but it was solidly packed. The thought that comes straight to mind is that I might need some form of a booster, I didn't weigh the HMTD, but 2 to 3 full (read fairly heaped) teaspoons pressed into a rolled up matchbox I would have thought would be fine. Sorry if I'm not very specific with weights and all that but I don't have a scale. I would really appreciate peoples opinions on what might help.

simply RED

December 3rd, 2003, 06:28 AM

Did you wash the UN with acetone before drying? Its very importaint.
hm... i have not had any problems with UN in large pill boxes. Also deodorant casings are good.
Actually i've never had misfire with UN.
Try again, make a detonator with 1 or 2 grams HMTD and booster from luminiscent lamp starter with 10 grams high explosive (nitroglycerine gelly, RDX, PETN) . Use 1 kilo UN in paint tin or 200 grams in deodorant.
Now, i'm making small UN charge enclosed in old 3,3 cm diam electrolyte capacitor. Good to be used in small rocket heads.

me234

December 3rd, 2003, 08:05 AM

I actually gave it an acetone wash twice, the first time I stupidly poured the acetone slowly throughthe same spot, the second one was administered after the UN hadn't dried after 2 days. I did a standard synth, filtered, washed, washed with acetone after water wash, another acetone wash, dried. I think I'll just try again and put this one down to a fluke, I hope.

Rosco Bodine

December 11th, 2003, 05:41 PM

Urea Nitrate is not hygroscopic . It would probably help it to
dry faster to rinse the crystals with cheap 70 per cent isopropyl
alcohol , but this really isn't necessary . Acetone is just a huge
waste of a valuable material . If the urea nitrate crystals
are precipitated from a boiling hot saturated solution which is
stirred continuously while cooling , the crystals develop to a
coarse enough mesh size , and gritty consistency , to be easily
filtered , squeezed free of excess liquid , blottered even more dry
still , and then air dried on a glass caserole sitting on a heating pad
resting on a sheet of foam or a fiberglass batt of insulation to
keep the heat flow from going into the table instead of the drying tray .
In a few hours a kilo of urea nitrate can be gotten fully dry by this
method . If the material should cake while drying , the standard
method using the potato masher kitchen utensil does a quick job
of pulverizing the lumps . That potato masher I use has a plastic
handle from which emerges two heavy wires which proceed downward
and are formed into a flat section of parallels terminated in U-bends .
There is nothing more useful for manually breaking up caked crystals
which can safely be handled in such a way , and urea nitrate can safely
be crunched with a potato masher as I describe . The ammonium
nitrate and urea treated with hydrochloric acid is the method I use .
I tried substituting sulfuric acid and did not get the same product ,
but what I would suppose was a double salt of urea nitrate and
ammonium sulfate . I made no attempt to analyze the material
but the flaky low density crystals look quite different and inferior
to those crystals of urea nitrate obtained using HCl . I have not
tried other nitrates since the ammonium nitrate is the most cheaply
available and the yield produced by its use is good .

There is potential value about urea nitrate which I intend to make
the source of future experiments when I have time . One of the
things which interests me about urea nitrate is that it has usefulness
in forming mixtures with ammonium nitrate and urea , which are
eutectic melts that remain liquid at room temperature . It seems
likely that powerful compositions could be made from common
materials based upon urea , ammonium nitrate , and urea nitrate ,
providing detonation velocities upwards from 5500 meters per second .
Such explosives could be made as liquids , cast solids or plastic ,
depending upon composition . They would be cheap and powerful ,
and easy to make .

See GB597717 page two line 18 mentions UN

simply RED

December 12th, 2003, 06:04 AM

One of the
things which interests me about urea nitrate is that it has usefulness
in forming mixtures with ammonium nitrate and urea , which are
eutectic melts that remain liquid at room temperature

More info about this?

Rosco Bodine

December 12th, 2003, 11:12 AM

simply RED ,

There are no specific references which tell the whole story
concerning the eutectics I mentioned . And that is why
experiments with such mixtures will be interesting as
pure research . It is sort of like the same story as with
ETN , there is only a very little published information available ,
so what will become known to us is only what we discover
by our own experiments and learn from direct observation
and shared information among ourselves .

There is just a line or two , or a few words mentioned
about these eutectics , in a few patent references .
So you have to visualize the significance of these
collected obscure references , and the sum of their
meaning supports the interest in experiments to
provide entirely new information .

I can give patent citations which are pertinent .

US4248644 column 1 line 50 mentions urea nitrate in eutectics
GB923272 figure 3 is a chart of the melting curve for
ammonium nitrate and urea mixtures
GB839078 describes a cap sensitive cast composition
US2817581 describes an earlier similar composition which
was much less sensitive to illustrate the density factor
GB1014071 see page 13 and the benefit of methyl cellulose added
to a melt as a modifier .
EP0037862 paraformaldehyde reaction in combination with urea and
ammonium nitrate produces methylamine nitrate
GB1548827 a related patent to above reaction
US1968158 example 2 shows the low melting point of methylamine nitrate
and ammonium nitrate mixtures
US3660182 shows the production of hexamine in situ from a reaction
of paraformaldehyde and ammonium ntrate used as the source
of ammonia liberated by lime .
US3496040 shows the usefulness of hexamine in slurry explosives
US3278350 shows the sensitizing effect of urea-formaldehyde resin ,
see example 4
GB990706 related to above
GB1037567 related to above

There are scattered bits of information , which collectively suggest
that further experiments are of interest .

Possible additive modifiers which are contemplated include the following :
ethylene glycol , DMSO , polyvinyl alcohol , polyoxymethylene ,
fructose , corn syrup , pine oil , Mr. Bubble , silica gel , lanolin ,
lecithin , galactomannan , methyl cellulose , borax , potassium
permanganate , copper sulfate , sodium polysulfide ,
calcium hydroxide , paraformaldeyde .

The type of mixtures which I am contemplating are
in the class of water free emulsion or slurry explosives .
Such explosives are known to be more brisant explosives
than typical ammonium nitrate explosives .

simply RED

December 12th, 2003, 05:30 PM

In my experience TNT was stronger! Much more brisant!
Its sad UN is acidic and can't be mixed with Al powder.

Rosco Bodine

December 12th, 2003, 06:14 PM

Yes , TNT is more brisant , and also much more expensive
and dificult to make . That is comparing apples and oranges .
When it comes to getting the "biggest bang for the buck"
emulsions rule . That is why mining companies use them .

roux

December 13th, 2003, 02:27 PM

codemason posted that the chemical composition of urea nitrate is CO(NHNO2)2. I had always thought it was (NO3)2C(NH2)2. I've been trying to find any info on urea nitrate's composition, but I have had no luck. Could you post a link to where you got your information, please?

Rosco Bodine

December 13th, 2003, 06:45 PM

Urea is NH2CONH2
Urea nitrate is NH2CONH2(HNO3)

The patents are not specific to urea nitrate , but related

If you want the link for the patent server , the fastest gateway
is linked below . The page reloads a couple of templates before
its ready . Paste in the alpha numeric term for the patents
in the middle box on the page and click Go , follow the links
to the full text pdf image files for viewing printing or saving .

http://ie.espacenet.com/espacenet/ie/en/e_net.htm

palpy

December 13th, 2003, 06:46 PM

try reading codemason's post one more time :)
he just posted the structure of urea and described how to get the structure of UN, then the structure of nitro- and dinitrourea
CO(NHNO2)2 is dinitrourea, not urea nitrate
urea nitrate is CONH2NH3NO3 or CO(NH2)2.HNO3
and if I get it right, your (NO3)2C(NH2)2 should be diaminodihydroxymethane dinitrate

Dr_Pind

December 15th, 2003, 09:37 AM

Just out of curiousity. Has anyone here got any experience with AN/UN mixes? Is it possible that it could be cast and still be sensitive to a cap, or would this require a foaming agent for sensitivity? If it worked, this might be a source to cheap block-type charges, all though the det-velocity might not be very high.

Rosco Bodine

December 15th, 2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Dr_Pind
Is it possible that it could be cast and still be sensitive to a cap, or would this require a foaming agent for sensitivity? If it worked, this might be a source to cheap block-type charges, all though the det-velocity might not be very high.

Yes it is ( probably ) possible . That is why I posted
this patent reference

GB839078 describes a cap sensitive cast composition
(See Example 2 )
Example 1 describes an aluminized version
which is otherwise identical ,
and both are cap sensitive . Aluminum
probably could not be used if UN was added
to such a mixture .

Similar compositions are described in KIFE
but I doubt the author invented them .
They are probably derived from this patent .

The OB for a mix of UN and AN would be about 50/50
and the melting point would be different than for plain
AN/Urea 80/20 mixtures like the patent . If I had to
guess , a suitable mixture would include all three in some
proportions of the patents 80/20 mixture , along with
a proportion of 50/50 AN / UN compatable with the melt .
It would almost certainly have to be foamed to be cap
sensitive . This should be more powerfil than the patent
composition which contains no UN . The addition of
a proportion of 50 /50 AN / UN should be an imrovement .
Certain other additives should also improve the performance
of the melt , some of them to a point where no foaming
agent would be needed for cap sensitivity . Some additives
would act physically as sensitizers while others would actually
react chemically in the mixture to produce chemical sensitizers
or sensitizing explosive products which would result
in a more sensitive mixture .

me234

January 5th, 2004, 03:21 AM

What do you guys rekon the chances are of UN being able to sensitize NM? Supposidly AN does it with NH4 ions, UN has an NH2 on one side and if it's got a similar polarity to NM it may also dissociate into urea and HNO3, the chances of it doing so are slim I know but no matter what the reason for it, would UN be able to sensitize NM?

blindreeper

January 5th, 2004, 03:45 AM

I always thought the NM sensatised the AN in ANNM mixes. While the NM is sensatised by the NH4 ions forming some complexes its the AN that you are trying to detonate. I think the UN if used like AN would detonate by having the NM sensatise the UN, not the other way round. Hope that is the answer to your question.

me234

January 5th, 2004, 05:56 AM

I suppose that'll do for an answer shot man, so this UNNM mix, the question is how much more powerful would it be? Do you think it'd be easier to detonate? I rekon that if they do sensitize each other, easier to det., duh, however if not, then the NM is quite hard on it's own and UN isn't exactly like silver fulminate, so would the mix not be harder to detonate then due to the NM? It's my understanding that NM is more insensitive than UN.

blindreeper

January 5th, 2004, 08:56 AM

Sorry I can't help you further, I don't have as much experience in this feild as other members such as DBSP, he has done a lot with ANNM and AN based comps. My guess is that it would be about as powerful because UN can be used where AN can be IIRC. About them (de)sensatising each other, think of it as AN is a bitch to detonate and if you say so NM is hard but ANNM is relativly easy to detonate so I think the UNNM maybe also be easy. Only one way to find out!

xyz

January 5th, 2004, 09:21 AM

blindreeper, no no no, it's the other way around, the NM is sensitized by the AN and then acts in a similar way to the AP in APAN.

Basically, NM becomes sensitive to detonation if it is mixed with an acid or a base. The ammonia ion in AN sensitizes the NM (the ammonia ion is acidic). Then the AN detonates easily because it is mixed with 30% of a fairly sensitive HE.

ALENGOSVIG1

January 6th, 2004, 04:46 AM

It's been mentioned many times that the NM and AN sensitize each other. Pure NM is actually VERY insensitive to initiation by the way.

blindreeper

January 6th, 2004, 09:31 AM

I was under the impression that NM was very sensative when pure? Or is it just that the slightest hint of sensatiser makes it very sensative, eg NM + few % amines?

Guerilla

January 6th, 2004, 12:28 PM

The sensitation of NM is based on formation of nitromethane salts. These salts are often easily decomposing and in solution, able to initiate the remaining NM. The concentration of the salt varies of course, depending on the salt/hydroxide used. Thus its hard to say whether "few % amines" would make it sensitive enough or not.. However the equilibrium may be improved eg. by adding water to the mixture. Salt is not formed in reactions between acids and NM, as NM is somewhat acidic in itself.

Rosco Bodine

January 6th, 2004, 06:23 PM

The nature of Urea Nitrate is similar to nitromethane in a couple of ways ,
they are both insensitive and both are oxygen deficient explosives .
The sensitivity and power of mixtures containing either of those materials
would be improved by their mixture with explosives that are oxygen rich ,
so that an oxygen balance is approached . The UN or nitromethane should
be regarded as Explosive Fuels which contribute their explosive value as
a bonus to their value as a supplier of fuel to the Oxidizing Explosive like
ammonium nitrate with which they may be mixed . It is the same theory which
was applied to producing Amatol mixtures of TNT and AN , where the oxygen
surplus of the AN would allow the usually wasted unburned products of detonation
of the TNT to contribute to the power of an Amatol mixture . The
mechanism of sensitization probably works both ways , with each material
mutually sensitizing the other , within certain ranges of density . But
at increased density it is possible for such mixtures to actually be more
difficult to detonate than any of the components of the mixture individually .
It is common for there to be a difficulty to initiate the most powerful
compositions , and why boosters are used to get them going .

me234

January 20th, 2004, 12:29 AM

If nitromethane is sensitized by acids as well as bases, then UN I think should work to sensitize NM, it is pretty acidic after all. Does anybody have some universal indicator and some UN to test the pH?

Mumble

January 20th, 2004, 11:26 PM

It's acidic, trust me on this one.

Nitromethane is sensitised by ammonia, ammonium ion, amines, those sort of things. Nitrates possibly too I believe. I don't know the exact reasons why it works, it just does. The OB will get worse, but neither are too far off of 0 in the first place. UN should sensitise NM fairly decently, or vice-versa. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, I do not recall the results however.

Dr_Pind

February 23rd, 2004, 07:47 AM

I've made a bach of about 350 g. of UN. It has been drying in the sun for two days now, and i plan on detonating it with a film canister of pressed AP. The UN has a tendensy to clump together(not the same way as if it was wet), but in any other way it seems to be absolutely dry. I read that it could be detonated in a cardboard tube at a density of 0.85 g/ml. I tried to press it to this density, but couldn't pack it tightly enough! I would really like it to detonate, since i have been working on it for quite some time now and used a lot of effort. Any thing I should know before detonating it to avoid a dud?

me234

February 24th, 2004, 03:05 AM

You also noticed a tendancy to clump huh?
Mine did the exact same thing, how long have you had the dried product? Do you keep it in a fridge, where?
Also, anybody I've asked says that stronger confinement is better, I'm not sure about pressing it though, I want to try a comparison test for that before I make any decisions for myself. Good luck for your test though.
What I mean by my earlier question, is: how long are you going to keep it before you use it and where are you planning on keeping it during that time? Sorry about any confusion.

Dr_Pind

February 24th, 2004, 06:34 AM

I'm leaving it out to dry as much as possible until I'm ready for the test. I'l be using an empty propane canister(330 cc.) with tamped UN for the main charge, with a 10-20 g. detonator of pressed AP. About storage; it is possible to store it for very long if dry. I read that it had been stored for 36 months without any signs of deterioration. This is quite enough for me. UN is also said to be sensitive to a #6 cap if mixed with AN , and that being at a desity of 1.35 g/cc! :eek: That's a rather high density for a simple AN mix if you ask me! Normally AN mixes are only cap-sensitive if the density is under 1 g/cc, and the mix incorporates sensitizers.

The page on which I found this data, said that a mix of 40% UN & 60%AN should work fine.
I have calculated a mix with an ox-balance of 0, consisting of 75% UN & 25%AN.

I noticed when weighting the yield of my UN, that small granules started jumping of the scale! When I placed my finger a few mm from the explosive, granules and dust particles started jumping up and stuck to my fingers! Looked rather fun :p The only reason I can give for this is that I left the UN to dry on a plastic garbagebag in the sun. Strange though that the UN has the ability to store so much static electricity in it. Hmmm.

me234

February 25th, 2004, 01:41 AM

36 months?, only? Kidding, that is a long time, I've only had some for about 3/4 months now, but is was a little bit hygroscopic so I stuck it in the freezer so it'd absorb moisture slower, if I leave my AN in the fridge for a week, then it'll be entirely clumped together, but in the freezer it takes closer on a month for that to happen, so My UN sits there now. I think a 40/60 UN/AN mix sounds worth a try, maybe a couple grams of pressed HMTD? Thanks for that Dr, I think it's definately worth a go. Does your UN also take quite a while to dry thoroughly if you don't break up the clumps as it dries, mine does, took about a week or two because I didn't break up the lump it was after filtering. Are you gonna try the UN/AN mix?

me234

February 25th, 2004, 01:49 AM

It'll probably be considered post-whoring, but I figured it was worth a new post: Everybody says that UN shouldn't be used with Al power because it's so acidic, but I've had aluminized UN siting around for a while with no visable changes or reaction, the UN's even a bit clumped from a tiny bit a water that it absorbed, but the Al's still fine, tonight I'll stir the mix around a bit to make sure. ALso I got the idea from those SF "Black Books" it says 4:1 Un:Al. Has anyone here actually had any problem with AL in UN?

Dr_Pind

February 25th, 2004, 04:39 AM

Yes. It takes a very long for it to dry if not broken up. I crush the lumps at least once a day. Mine has been drying for three days now (spread thin on a plate covered by plastic), and almost doesn't clump at all i.e. fine powder. :) I’ve also read about the UN/AL mix. The corrosion might not be so bad when using AL, since AL is one of the only metals to withstand the action of nitric acid (it forms a thin oxide layer when subjected to nitric). Aluminized high explosives are more powerful than ordinary explosives. Still, I think it would be a better idea to mix AL with an oxidizer, since it would release more energy and not leaving any unburned carbon and hydrogen in the combustion products.
About the AN mix; I haven't got any AN at the time present, but I will try it if i get my hands on some.
P.S. Where do you get your AL powder? I haven't been able to find it anywhere. It was removed from the paint stores because it could cause lung cancer. But doesn't smoing also do this??

me234

February 25th, 2004, 05:35 AM

Umm, Uh, well... I was walking around some labs and walked into one that didn't have anybody in it at the time, and I saw this tub of Al powder, and well, the darned thing jumped up into my bag, the wierdest thing!
It never actually crossed my mind to crush it up every day, huh. I don't suppose you know anyway to power my AN finely without a blender, 'cause my blender's broke :( . That mix sounds really interesting, it's castable right, what temp does UN melt at? I'm thinking I might just throw them into a pan together and melt them, stir a bit and pour into a container. Anyone here have any experience with this mix?

Dr_Pind

February 25th, 2004, 07:38 AM

Rosco Bodine wrote earlier in this thread, that there were some cast mixtures in some patents, and also in the KIFE. I haven't read the patents, and I haven't been able to acquire the KIFE. KIFE should be on the forum FTP, but I haven't got an account for it :( Have you tested the UN/AL mix yet?
One should notice that UN gives of HNO3 if heated to much over 60 degrees C, so I don't think that it would be possible to just fuze it together with AN. Sorry.

I have no idea of how to grind up AN without a blender. Since AN is so hygroscopic, one can't use a mortar and pestle. Talking about AN; do you get it as fertilizer or coldpacks?

Have you got access to the forum FTP? I would very much like the KIFE, since fertilizer explosives are the cheapest explosives available, and since I haven’t got access to exotic chemicals :(

me234

February 25th, 2004, 10:38 AM

Nah, I don't have an account there yet either. I make my own AN, just mix, let cool, boil away the water, most times when I do though I can't tell when all the water's gone, 'cause my AN is molten, so when the water level drops low enough I'll add a bit of methanol so when I add it a see a solid precipitate out I know I've gotten most of the water out.
Over ^) degrees you say, what temp do you have to heat the mix to to make RDX?, UN/H2SO4 hot nitrating mix?, probably be pretty dangerous to try though.

Dr_Pind

March 4th, 2004, 08:50 AM

NICE!!! Last night i detonated about 240-250 g. of urea nitrate. The UN was placed in an empty 300 cc. gas canister (lightly tamped. Density around 0.8 g/cc) and primed with a 10 g. AP detonator. The charge was placed between a tree and a small hill of soft dirt. When detonated there was a great BOOM, didn't really sound as loud as I had expected. When my brother and I went to look, we found that the tree's bark had been peeled of in a diameter of about 20 cm. and the dirt around the charge hed been blown away in a diameter of approximately 2 meters :D ! We figured that most of the sound had been absorbed by the soft dirt and the leaves on the hill, so it would have been MUCH louder if placed in the open. Many people say that UN is almost as insensitive as AN. This is NOT true :mad: ! It was a full detonation leaving absolutely no residue of undetonated UN after detonation. If I can get my hands on some AN, I will try a UN/AN mix, which is supposed to be as powerfull as amatol and able to be detonated by a #6 cap at a density of 1.35 g/cc ;)

Dr_Pind

May 22nd, 2004, 11:17 AM

Another SUCCES!!! :D 2 days ago, a friend of mine, my brother and I went to a deserted farm in the country. We brought with us a 2.5 L paint can with 2.25 kg of UN. We placed in a small stable next to the farm, and lit the fuse to a 10 g detonator in the charge. When the fuze was lit we drove of. We stoped about 3-400 metres away and stepped out of the car. after about 30 seconds there was a flash and a deep BOOM! My friend and my brother just started laughing in ave. They both thought it sounded like a exploding! A while later we went back to the farm equipped with a camera and a digital video camera. It was dark, but when we got close to the barn, we all got VERY surprised! I thought that the charge would have made a hole in the wall, and lifted some of the roof plates. There was no hole in the wall...The whole wall (made out of boulders and concrete and about 30 cm thick) had been blown out of the building, or rather the remains of the building!!! :eek: What was left after the detonation was a TOTAL ruin. The roof was gone, and the three walls were still standing. I'l see if I can get to post some of the pictures, to show you what I can't describe! It was absolutely STUNNING!

Now about the charge. The e was made by placing 1.5 L of 62 % nitric acid in a bucket. To this, 1.2 kg of Urea fertilizer was added. The mix got very hot and began to steam a little. The wapour given off was mostly water. It still smelled a little like HNO3, so I added a bit more Urea, until the smell dissapeared. Now I had a very thick goo left in the bucket, which I left to cool. After it had cooled down, i placed on two owen plates covered by garbage bags. Here i left it to dry for about a week. In days with sun, I put it outside to make it dry faster, and every day I crushed most of the big clumps in the powder. When the powder seamed dry enough, I filled a paint can full of it. (2.25 kg at a density of 0.9 g/cc). A 10 g AP det was used to set it off.

By the way, does anyone know the detonation temperature of UN.

Rosco Bodine

May 22nd, 2004, 02:58 PM

So , you first have the sand test , but then you skip right past
the lead block and ballistic pendulum test , and go straight
to the "barn test" ..... LOL

Old MacDonald had a barn , eeee Aye , eeee Aye , Oh

some farmer is bound to be pissed about that barn !

nbk2000

May 22nd, 2004, 06:31 PM

The empirical proof of the "Barn Test" made Einstein realize his Grand Unification Theory was a moot point.

;) :D

..........................................

Dr_Pind

May 24th, 2004, 11:22 AM

Don't worry Rosco. The whole place is about to be bulldozed any way. We just gave em a helpin' hand He He! :D

By the way, I don't think it will be possible to reproduce "The Barn test" :p
which was actually a "horse stable test"

Detonate

August 20th, 2004, 07:59 AM

UN souds like a good explosive. Do you think the HCl/AN method works without problems? I can buy 33% HCl for only 3€ a liter. So that method is a cheap method for me! AN is also no problem.

Myrol

August 26th, 2004, 12:59 PM

After I made my first UN I had seen that it dry's very slow......so I changed to a new method of getting Ureanitrate: first I dissolved my 53% Nitric Acid somewhat down because the mix is getting to thick when you dont do this step. I "neutralised" 167g Urea with 250ml 53% Nitric Acid.....the Urea is in a very slight excess...Nitric Acid is very corrosive and I dont want it in my steel pan. So I put all of the mix without filtering etc. directly in the pan and evaporated slowly all the water until the Ureanitrate was dry like Ammonium nitrate. I let everything chilled down and violà I have here around 650g perfectly dry UN handy! The nice thing with this drying method is you loose absolutely no UN on a Filter or other devices. The Yield from another day was together around 650g. No lossens from the second batch...but a high lossens from the first batch, washing your Ureanitrate is not necessary if you're using an excess of Urea. 1% should be ideal, Ureanitrate is a really cool explosive! Its cheap, "piss" easy, quick and it looks absolutely like fluffy AN!! I couldn't see any difference, its a slight yellow dry fluffy powder. My AN is also slight yellow and fluffy, strange huh?

Mr Cool

August 26th, 2004, 06:13 PM

UN itself is slightly corrosive, since urea is not a very strong base. Get yourself a pyrex pan for £5, because UN WILL slowly corrode steel. I would not be at all surprised if that is why your product is slightly yellow.
My preferred method is to slowly add conc. urea solution to nitric acid (both chilled), and then chill the mixture. UN has a low solubility in cold water. Then filter out your product, dry between lots of absorbent paper, and then air dry. Yield is still close to theoretical, and you don't have to boil off all that water...
That yield is from two batches combined, right?

Myrol

August 27th, 2004, 11:07 AM

Yes of course is this the combined Yield! Othwerwise it would be an impossible Yield....hmm yes UN is slightly corrosive....my UN is faint yellow so I think I have some Ironnitrate impurties in the dry Stuff. But...should that be a problem??

ProdigyChild

August 27th, 2004, 11:48 AM

I liked Myrols approach and did the same last night. 90ml HN03, diluted to 150ml and slowly added 63g of urea, keeping temperature below 40° with a tab water bath. The white mud was hard to stir in the end.
Then I put it in an enamel pan and heated gently. However, there was always a sharp acid smell, so I finally went over to use a fan and NO heating. Takes more time but is much more healthy :)
My product, too, was slightly yellow, which is hard to explain by dissolved enamel !? That's kind of glass, isn't it?

At all times there kept the acid smell, even today.
I washed the UN with few acetone (beaker, UN fills half of the liquid) and the yellowish color is gone now. I blame the HNO3-traces for the color.

It feels to me as if UN formation is in balance with the ingredients. If I heat it up I get HNO3 and urea - that's the acid smell?? :rolleyes:

ProdigyChild

August 28th, 2004, 07:49 PM

I'm fairly pissed of by UN now. The second try to detonate it failed a few minutes ago. I used a 30mm high strength (like standard steel) aluminium tube, 8cm length, 2.5mm wall thickness. I put an 8cmx8mm diameter MHN detonator in the middle and filled up with UN. That shit is so difficult to press, it's so fluffy and wants to stay like that :(
Closed it with plasticine.
After ignition, a dampened boom, obvoiusly the UN not set off. And yes, I found some UN on the soil. When I finally found the tube, it was widened in diameter but not shred. A little bit UN still on the walls.

I admit, using a AP of the same size with the first try was of questionable power, but the one with estimated 2g of Nitromannite is not.
I don't like that kind of explosives, that need 1J of energy input to output an additional 1J of output!
What's the benefit of an insensitive explosive it I need umpteen grams of dangerous primary to set it off?

This stuff is (said to be) low power (could not test it myself yet), difficult to densify/press yet clumpy, hard to dry, acid fuming while drying and damn insensitive. The only positive is, you don't need conc. HNO3. So what? with the 90ml of HNO3 I could have made some REAL explosive....

UN is only a good choice if one goes for multiple kilos, uh? :confused:

me234

August 30th, 2004, 01:55 AM

Hmmm? The only two people who seem to have noted the slight yellow colour in their UN are the only two swearing by the 'pan' method of UN. Hmmm? Coincidence say you. Hmmm? NOx say I.

Dr_Pind

August 30th, 2004, 11:30 AM

My UN has absolutely no smell to it. No nitric odour at all. Also, I have heated UN in a pyrex beaker on a water bath to see if it could be dried this way. In this case it gave of only a faint acidic smell which wasn't irritating even when i put my nose into the beaker. How ever I don't think it would remain stable at this temperature for longer periods of time. It would probably just give off all of it's nitric and render useless urea. Drying in an oven at 60-70, maby 80 degrees celcius shouldn't pose a problem. Just make sure to measure the temperature occasionally, since an oven's thermostat can be highly unreliable. OHH! By the way, after heating, the UN becomes rather sticky, as if mixed with oil or water. Has any one else experienced this? I can't find any clue what so ever on the reason for this. any ideas?

Dr_Pind

August 30th, 2004, 11:56 AM

I tried grinding UN and stearic acid with a mortar and pestle to make the UN more free-flowing. I didn't measure out the amounts used though. I got a very fine powder. Not as fine as flour, but much less coarse than straight UN. It didn't have any similarity to the crystaline structure of UN what so ever. I also noted to my surprise, that it gave off a very acidic smell which was very irritating to the nose. The reason for this wasn't that the mix started reacting, releasing acid vapour, but becaused VERY fine particles left the batch. The reason for my experiment with mixing the UN with stearic acid wasn't only to make the UN more free-flowing, but also to make it easier to press it into block type charges. Since the stearic acid makes the large crystals of UN crumble into fine powder, one can achieve higher densities. The stearic acid also has the effect of holding the fine particles together when pressure is applied. This would make it much easier to produce stable block type charges. I know that UN becomes very insensitive at high densities, but when it is mixed with AN it becomes very cap sensitive. A 60/40% mix of AN/UN should be sensitive to a #6 cap at densities as high as 1.35 g/cc.! This is where the stearic acid is suposed to help.

hereno

September 24th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Mr cool (or others), your site mentions the zinc salt of NU, though you say it isnt very interesting how was it made? Will it precipitate from an aqueous solution of NU & ZnSO4? What stops the formation of cyanates?

uSeR 350o7

October 7th, 2004, 04:24 PM

Dr Pind did you use the pan method of neturalization, that Myrol and Prodigychild used, or did you use the precipitation method from the
FEMFEP?

I tried both methods. The percipitation method made better quality UN. I haven't had a chance to detonate them yet to see if there is a difference in the products.

Also does the AN need to be crushed when used in the AN/UN Mix or do you leave it in prill form?

nbk2000

October 8th, 2004, 01:17 PM

uSeR 350o7, I corrected the link in your signature for you.

And, after having followed it, found it K3wL in the extreme.

I don't hold high hopes for your continued presence here, but we'll see if you hang yourself or not.

Dr_Pind

October 13th, 2004, 06:45 AM

the AN has to be crushed to give an intimate contact between the two components, thereby yielding an explosive with a much better cap sensitivity than straight UN.

I really couldn't find out what you ment by "pan method of neutralization". But read my posts and you will see that i added dry urea prills directly to a bucket of 62% nitric. Hope the info can be of some help to you. And remmember, this explosive is really hard to detonate. So make sure it is COMPLETELY dry before attempting to detonate it. Also use a 10 g. detonator of AP or HMTD, or a booster the same size.

And as NBK mentioned. The link does look rather K3wL in my oppinion... Sorry :rolleyes:

Detonate

November 5th, 2004, 01:22 PM

Today I made Nitrourea. It worked but the yields werent that good. The Urea nitrate was made with 53% nitric. Today i added the Urea nitrate (perfectly dry) to 96% sulfuric acid. The mix was chilled for 10 min. and then it was slowly poured over crushed ice. The ice turned to water and the whole think was white. I filtered and washed twice with water (very cold and not much). I squeezed it out and now its dry. As i said before the yields werent good. I think 50% of theoretical. Tomorrow Ill make a few tests with it. (Sorry that ive no measures! I mixed on good luck)

Dr_Pind

November 7th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Yesterday my brother and I mixed 3 L of 62% nitric with app. 2.45 kg's of urea... It is to yield almost 5 kg's of pure UN..We have been drying half of it in an oven for a couple of hours, at a temperature lying between 70 and 80 deg. C. It dries rather fast, and (of course) a lot faster than the last time when I air dried it.. shish :rolleyes:

If i get my hands on a blender, i will try making some flake Al for use in UN/AL, and compare the power of this mix with straight UN. I have calculated an increase in power of 48% [Q*V], of a 70% UN and 30% Al -mix, being the optimum mixture i.e. (CO2 -> CO and H2O -> H2).
The increase in power does NOT include the afterburning of H2 and CO in the atmosphere, so the over-all output of energy will be MUCH larger than 48%. I will make this mix, to see how high an air blast can be achieved.. Also gonna try treating the Al with a couple % of stearic acid as a corrosion inhibitor. And if I have time to make some AN, i will test the sensitivity of UN/AN, and see if it is so easily detonated, as one of my sources claim. would be a good and easily manufactured booster for straight UN.
I am also gonna make pressed charges instead of loose UN charges, to see how brisant it is compared to the loose stuff... On with the experimenting :o

By the way! Me234, how did it go with your mix of UN/Al? I have made a compatability test, to see if any changes occur to a piece of Al foil, having some soggy UN on top. Until now,it has only shown a slight discolouring in the edge of the small pile of UN (where the wet and dry al meets). I am fairly convinced that this has something to do with atmospheric oxygen, since it isn't corroded AT ALL in the middle of the pile. I think the UN only acts as a catalyst to oxidation, and not as the oxidizer... just like salt water on a piece of iron, subjected to O2... Oh well. Better stop writing before it get's out of hand :D

Dr_Pind

November 21st, 2004, 07:04 PM

Can ANYONE tell me what kind of booster or detonator was used for setting of the 100gr urea nitrate charge seen on roguemovies?

http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies7/

Nice to see UN on video.. All of my experiments vere performed at dusk, so I really havent got a very god idea of how it would look in bright daylight. Any idea why it leaves a thick white smoke? Maby because the detonation is very cool, and the water vapour condences? I can't find a chemical reason for it.. Hmm. ANY suggestions?

FUTI

November 24th, 2004, 05:30 AM

ammonium salts (esspecially sulfate) are one of the causes of smog...fine aerosolic particles react with water (and other stuff) and makes nasty fog...that is how much I remember from my ecological chemistry classes 9 years ago.
I hope this helps.

Edit: This can happend with your explosion if it lead to incomplete combustion.

simply RED

November 24th, 2004, 07:31 AM

Right! The smoke maybe from sulphates or other impurities.
I have detonated 2 kilos UN, and almost no smoke was seen.
Sometimes the explosion brings dust to the air and this is the reson for the "smoke". Once 1.5 kilo UN charge was detonated on yellow sandrock.
The day was very hot and a big yellow cloud was observed after the blast.

hereno

November 25th, 2004, 02:23 AM

Atmospheric conditions have a lot to do with smoke production as well. Like starting your car of a morning = "smoke". Sound is also considerably effected by temperature/humidity etc. So when people start comparing sounds you know they dont know what they are talking about!

Dr_Pind

November 25th, 2004, 10:43 AM

Hmm... Just came to think about it. The thermal decomposition of UN also yields some AN, and since the air was rather humid that evening, traces of AN (and other salts and smoke particles) may have condenced some of the humidity, giving this white smoke... should have thought of that..
Also, when looking at the decomposition formula of UN, one gets only CO2, CO, H2O and N2. These are the ideal break down products left by the detonation of UN, but of course, in real life chemistry isn't as simple as the equations on a piece of paper. Thanks guys...
Maby AXT could answer my question conserning the detonator/booster used for detonating UN. I believe he is the maker of roguemovies. If not, then never mind..
Would be nice though, with some general info on the devices seen on roguemovies. I have only been able to find scattered info on several forums. Can anyone provide a link if one such exists? Thanks in advance :)

nbk2000

November 26th, 2004, 09:17 PM

Ask AXT over at the sciencemadness joint 'cause he wore out his welcome here.

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 07:50 AM

In my experiments I'm washing/purificating UN very hardly. After Urea was treated with HNO3 Keeping <20C. I Leaved it to react fully for 30min in SNOW/AN slurry bath to cool to the lowest temperature it can achieve. Then I Filtered with vacuum Buncher filter. After that. Cooled Acetone to -10C and added all UN to it. Stir for 5min. Filtering.... Then Added to boiling acetone to dissolve it and purificate. When all UN is dissolved I cooled mix to 0C(UN has low sol. in Acetone).
Filtered and one more time washed with small amout acetone. Crystals are perfect small it isn't lumping and it can be dried very fast. Very pure Product. I know alot of work involved ,but I can get very good product. 50/50 UN/AN(Very Finely powdered and dried AN) mix is VERY Powerful and it can be detonated from 0.1g DS and 0.4g HMTD , maybe even lower amount of HMTD.

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 07:50 AM

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 07:50 AM

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Idiot

March 13th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Chris The Great

October 16th, 2005, 01:59 AM

Made some urea nitrate, got a shitty yield but I think it's because I didn't boil off enough water.

120 grams of urea was added to 900ml of 13% nitric acid (from a hydroponics store). Some urea nitrate precipitated out after stirring.
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mix8ne.jpg

A few days later, I boiled off most of the water leaving 300ml of slightly solution.
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sol4xm.jpg
As it cooled urea nitrate precipitated out.
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=precip5ag.jpg

I stuck it in the freezer and forgot about it for two weeks :rolleyes: while I was busy with suffering through a flu and large amounts of homework.

I dumped it into a filter and let most of the water drain out, and then sqeezed most of the remaining water out with paper towels, and let it dry for a night. The remaining water completely soaked the paper towel, so I put it on a fresh one, which stayed dry.
http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=product9zh.jpg

I weighed it, getting 150 grams, then stuck it in a dessicator to remove any remaining water.

Dr_Pind

June 8th, 2006, 11:47 AM

The last two days I have been conducting some tests on a balanced mix of UN/AN, and I must say I am VERY satisfied with the results!

I extracted AN from a cold pack, and mixed it with UN in the proportions 25/75 to give a mix with a zero oxygen balance. Both ingredients were powdered very finely in a blender, and mixed by tumbling them around in a plastic box. After it had been mixed thoroughly it was hand-pressed in different containers, and hermetically sealed to avoid moisture getting into the mix and ruining it.

The first charge I fired was a test charge of about 60 g. in a small plastic container, to see if it would detonate in small amounts. It was placed in a small hole in a big pile of dirt, and detonated by a detonator of 1-2 g. (haven’t got a precise scale) of AP. It was a full detonation, giving quite a sharp BOOM and removing a LOT of dirt for such a simple mix. The detonation gave of a small cloud of pale white smoke that quickly dissipated.

Now that I had seen it in action, I went out to test a larger charge. The charge consisted of a 250 cc. hair spray can, with hand-pressed UN/AN (sorry.. didn’t get the weight of the explosive but at least 300 grams +). I Placed the charge on a small tree (about 15 cm. diameter), and used the same size detonator as in the last charge. I lit the 45 sec. fuse and hurried away. I was about 40 or 50 meters away when the charge detonated. BOOM! The sound was very different from the loosely filled UN charges I have been experimenting with. The shockwave was just amazing. I haven’t worked with petn, rdx and similar high energy materials, but considering it was a simple mix of UN and AN, I can be nothing else but satisfied.

The tree was cut straight over, and the bark of some of the remaining branches had been peeled of, some 50 cm. away from the charge. The tall grass around the tree was pointing away from the blast, in a radius of about 2 meters.

This mix is REALLY cap sensitive compared to straight UN, and can be pressed to high densities strongly increasing it’s brisance, without loosing it’s sensitivity. It is cheap, easy, can be made up in large amounts with little effort and has good performance considering the ingredients and procedures involved. The only drawback I can find is its hygroscopic nature due to the AN. This could probably be lessened to some extend, by incorporating 1% of calcium-stearate into the mix.

I will post pictures of the tree after the blast and a movie when I have edited it.

Edit: Uploaded pictures

BTW does anyone have an idea on how to calculate/find/estimate the VOD, of a mix like this, maby a witnessplate test? Also; is there a universal way to calculate the VOD of explosives at different densities, if you know the VOD at one density? I am very curious :)

simply RED

June 8th, 2006, 03:26 PM

Good experimenting!
Anyway, 15 cm live tree with 300 grams? I can not believe...

p.s. Drawning the UN in acetone (or simply washing) is the best way to speed up the drying process. UN does not dissolve, only water...

simply RED

June 10th, 2006, 06:13 AM

Seeing the pictures, everything is within the thoretical predictions.
Good work, again.
Was it: 25/75 AN/UN by weight?

No, there is no way to calculate the Vod.

Dr_Pind

June 10th, 2006, 06:45 PM

Yes; It was 25% AN and 75% UN. I have seen someone state that a 50/50 mix should have a perfekt oxygen balance, but this is NOT true. I did the calculations a million times, and always ended up with 25/75. In theory it's actually something like 24,55% AN IIRC, but 25 is a lot easier to work with...

I have some fine aluminium flakes, not really powder, but fine enough to go through a kitchen mesh. I made it in a blender by putting aluminium flakes in it with some ethanol ( the method discussed in the topic: Easy aluminium powder. Think thats the name of the topic).
So I'll try an aluminized charge when i get the time. I calculated the optimal percentage of aluminium (CO, H2 formation) to be 27%.
I'm going to use 25% since it is much more practical...
The mix will be 188g of UN/AN, and 62g of aluminium, giving 250g of highly aluminized explosive. I hope it will be sensitive enough to be detonated with the same size detonator as the last charges.
I'm glad to have found such a simple mix, with so many benefits; cheap, easy, sensitive, quite powerfull, and storagestable. Only drawbacks is the hygroscopic and acidic nature, especially if combined. This might cause some complications in a mix with Al.

I hope that other members will do some tests with this or similar mixes, to give some idea of the brisance. I would really like to know how high the VOD can go. 5000-6000 m/s maby? Would be nice to see if it could be ysed in shaped charges. I read that APAN has been used with not to bad results, so I cant se any reason that this wouldn't work.

It's impressive that so little AN can make a low density, low power, low brisance explosive like UN so much more valuable...

simply RED

June 11th, 2006, 04:17 AM

I have tried : 50 grams UN, 50g AN and 20 grams Al (flakes) .
It detonated from 3 grams HMTD. The charge was packed in a tin can.
The only drawback this has is that the Al could react with the acidic UN.

bonusiletisim

June 19th, 2006, 07:45 AM

Reading the posts, I decide to make some urea nitrate. I've just bought a handycam and I'm very impatient to film a loud bang. Do you think 1,5gr MF and a 15gr Picric Acid booster are enough to detonate 1kg UN?

aikon

June 19th, 2006, 10:17 AM

...Do you think 1,5gr MF and a 15gr Picric Acid booster are enough to detonate 1kg UN?

That would be more than enough.

inventorgp

June 22nd, 2006, 12:28 AM

On the weekend I will (if I get to) compare two charges,
25:75 of APAN and APUN, electrically detonated (heated).

Two holes will drilled half a meter from the surface, the
holes with be a meter apart with half a meter of dirt on top
of them.

inventorgp

June 27th, 2006, 09:58 AM

Ok the results are"

APAN didn't fully detonate.
APUN fully detonate.

Now for APNU, as soon as I find a HNO3 supplier:D

simply RED

June 28th, 2006, 10:09 AM

25% Acetone Peroxide ; 75% Ammonium nitrate!!! (type mistake) did not detonate?
How big was the detonator??? This mix detonates from 3 grams AP every time.

APUN is extremely unstable due to the acidic nature of UN.

Anyway! Do not make APUN if you want to remain alive!

inventorgp

June 28th, 2006, 10:22 AM

Just a misunderstanding, the APUN did detonate, there were only
shreds of ABS left. It’s the acetone peroxide-ammonium nitrate that
didn’t det.

nbk2000

June 28th, 2006, 06:27 PM

Now how the hell could APAN not detonate? You can set it off with a plain fuse, for gods sake!

June 29th, 2006, 12:04 AM

That should most definitely detonate, unless there was something wrong with your AP and/or AN that you used for this.

inventorgp

June 29th, 2006, 03:34 AM

Okay I'll try it again and I'll try it with a fuse too (sparkler).

The AN probably absorb water from the air.

I will dry it in an oven for about half an hour at 100OC

Prills it not available here so I used an ACE instant ice pack.
It was pure(ish) granular HN4NO3.

Aren't prills covered with CaCO3?

nbk2000

June 29th, 2006, 06:12 AM

Drop some prills in acid. If it fizzes, it's coated. If not, it's not. :)

Unless, of course, they're using diatomaceous earth. :p

simply RED

June 29th, 2006, 06:33 AM

Try APAN with 3 grams AP detonator, the sparkler will not detonate it unless confined or very very well mixed, only the AP burns with a sparkler.

25% AP is too much anyway, use 7-10% AP and 2% bronze paint.

inventorgp

June 29th, 2006, 08:51 AM

Thanks for the tip NBK!

Simply RED, I did use a 3 gram detonator. Bronze paint?
I try your way also RED.

Ah...I just remembered I use the AN from my last experiment.
I added a tiny amount of glycerine (1mL) to 50g of AN. It dried
for three days.

Maybe this is why it didn’t detonate properly?
Sorry if this is a waste of time:o

Alexires

June 29th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Okay I'll try it again and I'll try it with a fuse too (sparkler).
(cut)
It was pure(ish) granular HN4NO3.

Ammonium Nitrate - NH4NO3 (I know you know, just thought I'd point it out)

Speaking from personal experience, keep sparklers and AP the hell away from one another. One spark on a small bit of AP and your going to be minus a face. If you have to use sparklers, wrap them in electrical tape. They will burn, but wont throw sparks everywhere.

simply RED

June 29th, 2006, 12:08 PM

Yeah, bronze paint! The one that has Al powder in it.

Dry the AN well and do not add glycerine at all !

inventorgp

June 29th, 2006, 08:35 PM

I should of mentioned I would use tape. Lots of it.
And, I like my fingers.

About the glycerine, I was searching RS and, I came
across an ANFO substitute patent (I can remember which one)
that uses glycerine.

nbk2000

June 29th, 2006, 08:45 PM

And ANFO is hard to detonate. Most substitutes, even more so.

Try making ANSOY instead. Much more reliable to detonate.

Glycerine is very hydroscopic, meaning it'll pull a lot of water out of the air, and into your AN, making it impossible to detonate. Only if everything is anhydrous, would it work..

inventorgp

June 30th, 2006, 06:25 AM

Well today I make up a batch (15g) of TCAP and dried some AN.

Success it worked:D. I made two mini shape charges.
One with 2g TCAP and 6g of AN, pressed into a plastic lid facing beneath
an ants nest pointing up. No more pesky ants. heh heh...

The second 2g AP, 5g AN and 5g of UN made out of a half CO2
"soda bulb". Placed it on top of a piece of sheet steel. There is now
a 3.5cm deep by 4cm dia. hole.

All charges were pressed.

ANSOY, mmm... Sounds like food:p
Use powdered soy?

Haven’t tried fuse yet, need more H2O2

nbk2000

July 1st, 2006, 02:37 AM

You're 20 hits away from being banned. UTFSE!

inventorgp

July 2nd, 2006, 08:55 AM

The Urban Dictionary (www.urbandictionary.com), Google (www.google.com), and RS's search (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/search.php) it will save your (my) life!

Use powdered soy?
DEFINE; Sarcastic, rhetorical comment not needed in this forum.

Soy powder in milk aisle (Aisle 2 at the store I work at).
I don't have soy powder yet but, will try milk/coffee powder.

I will also try it with urea nitrate.

The Chemistry of Organic Compounds, 1947, Micmaillian Company

Nitrourea and Semicarbazide
One of the hydrogen atoms of urea may be replaced by a nitro group.
This is accomplished by adding solid urea nitrate to concentrated sulphuric acid at -3O.

.....................H2SO4
NH2CON2.HNO2 ---> NH2CONHNO2 + H20
.....................-3O

_(Urea nitrate)______(Nitrourea) to clarify.

Nitrourea is a crystalline solid...readilly reduced to a semicarbazine.
Blah, blah, etc, etc.

I finally got it! Does everyone agree on this?
So assuming that when everybody talks about UN they
mean urea nitrate, not NU.

Thank you NBK for sparing my life:D:D:D

simply RED

July 3rd, 2006, 06:34 AM

oh... inventorgp, think before posting...

Learn more about oxireduction processes, oxigen balance etc...
This has been discussed 1000 times, look at the Anfo-K thread and simply copy what others have done properly.

bonusiletisim

July 6th, 2006, 04:36 PM

Failing again to make a detonable picric acid at my 3rd attempt, I've decided to detonate 1kg of UN with only MF. Do you know guys how much MF I need for 1kg UN?

simply RED

July 7th, 2006, 03:46 AM

Better use HMTD. It is not that dangerous if you make it carefully and only several times.
20 grams HMTD + 60grams NH4NO3 - booster.
2g HMTD - detonator.

Kleng

July 8th, 2006, 01:47 AM

If you can't make HMTD, you should try Acetone Peroxide. APAN is perfect for boosters!

I know it is unstable, but when mixing with AN, it's getting much more insentisive. I've used it as a booster for ANFO charges...

bonusiletisim

July 10th, 2006, 01:52 PM

Is it not possible to detonate UN with only MF? If possible, how much MF do I need for 1kg UN. I think MF is safer than AP and APAN.

simply RED

July 10th, 2006, 06:17 PM

3 grams MF should work in ideal conditions.

HMTD is much safer than MF.

inventorgp

July 11th, 2006, 12:00 AM

Simply RED, you mean this:

OB% = -1600 x (2X + (Y/2) + M - Z)
. . . . . ._____
Mol wt. of compound

X = no. of C
Y = no. of H
Z = no. of O
M = no. of Metal atoms

I was going to do a unbalanced equal test, then a equalised test.
The unbalanced test was to see how/if it detonated. The second
was to improve it.

2Kg of UN costs me AU$3. Very plentiful.

simply RED

July 11th, 2006, 04:31 AM

It is a waste of time to try mixing UN with any reducing agent.

inventorgp

July 11th, 2006, 09:51 AM

So are you suggesting to use straight UN with a 3-4g AP or HMTD detonator.

And that formula is correct isn't it?

I'll try a charge tomorrow consisting of 200g of UN with a 5g AP detonator.

Maybe I should get some H2SO4(Au$40/L/93%) to synthesize some NU someday.

Kleng

July 11th, 2006, 05:26 PM

Go for a 10gram APAN detonator insteed. It is safer, flame sensitive and you are sure to detonate the charge.

simply RED

July 11th, 2006, 05:43 PM

20g APAN 50% with 1g AP det, 5-10g AP, 50-100 g (HMTD 30% - AN) (best for home applications) with 2g HMTD det, 4-5 g RDX, PETN, NG (+NC), 20g Pentolite, 200g TNT with 5g HMTD det, 100g AN + 15g AP + 5g Al powder with 2g AP det ....

APAN is not reliably flame sensitive.

All these were tried and work good for UN or UN + AN.
There is a rule - if you can make RDX, PETN, NG, TNT etc - use this instead of peroxide (only 0,5-5g peroxide for detonator).
If you can not, for a powerful booster - at least mix the peroxide with AN.

inventorgp

July 12th, 2006, 09:32 AM

How about:

Det - 3g AP
Booster - 5-10g HDN (http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/hexamethylenetetramine_dinitrate.html)
Charge - 100g - 2kg UN

The only reason I use TCAP is that I can prepare it fast (under half an hour).

Side question: I am looking at purchasing this:

'http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM7241&CATID=&keywords=QM7241&SPECIAL=&form=
KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=' scale. It can measure 100g at 0.01 res.
and 200g at 0.02 res. Price: Au$99.95. Sounds good, what do you think?

Or this:

'http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM7238&CATID=&keywords=QM7238&SPECIAL=&form=
KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=' 1Kg 0.5g Au$39.95

www.jaycar.com.au' has other scales.

HDN is the closest thing to RDX for me.
I electrically ignite everything - nichrome wire. No fuses except for APNC.

simply RED

July 12th, 2006, 05:25 PM

No one tried I guess. HDN is not reliable.

Better make something already tested, the experience will help you learn about the explosives you are dealing with. Then you could apply ideas on your own and enrich the experimental technology of improvised explosives.

Dr_Pind

December 1st, 2006, 08:29 AM

The last couple of days I have been doing some theoretical calculations, to determine the heat of explosion and the detonation temperature of UN, UN/AN and UN/AN/Al.

I found UN's temperature of explosion to be close to 2000 degrees C, and the temperature of UN/AN to be around 2500 degrees C. That's an increase of around 28%. Haven't got the exact numbers with me right now.

My calculations also showed an increase in heat of explosion of about 26%.

Considering the fact, that UN/AN can be pressed to a high density, it's sensitivity and these new data, I would recon it's brisance to be VERY good compared to straight UN. The energy increase and the higher density would also raise the VOD quite a bit... a qualified guess is most welcome.

Some calculations were also done on aluminized UN/AN balanced for CO/H2 production.
The heat of explosion, combined with the energy release by the afterburning of gasses in atmospheric oxygen, makes it about 4 times as powerfull (KJ/kg). This of course, is if one considers a perfect reaction, which would hardly be the case. My guess is, that it would do quite well as an improvised air burst explosive.

I'll make a full list of the date when I get the time.

MMMHH........ explosives..... (homer style) ;)

Dr_Pind

June 15th, 2007, 09:21 AM

As you may know by now, I am very interested in the properties of urea nitrate explosives, and have been doing a bit of research, especially in the field of UN/AN mixtures. So far I have only worked with mechanical mixtures of the two(powdered AN+UN), but got the idea of making an adduct/doublesalt/eutectic of the two instead. This would result in an intimate mixture of the two on a molecylar level, and probably result in better detonation properties eg. smoother propagation of detonation, higher vod etc. These so far are only theoretical speculations, but in my opinion they are worth the investegation.

I doubt that it would be possible to make a melt of the two, but it might be possible to recrystallise them from water, alcohol or other solvent into a doublesalt. If a doublesalt was to appear, i doubt that it would be a perfect stochiometric mixture; probably an adduct and some free AN. Any ideas about the ratios? It would probably depend on the amount of lone pairs, and hydrogen bonds in the adduct.

BTW,I got the idea from the Hexamine/AN adduct in KIFE.
Hope I got someone interested in the idea. It might work with other nitrate/perchlorate salts..

Any comment is very welcome.

simply RED

June 28th, 2007, 07:04 PM

Experiment! I doubt anyone ever tried these...

megalomania

July 2nd, 2007, 02:40 AM

Hmm, you would need to try a variety of different recrystallization solvents and techniques to get the highest density crystal structure possible, or at least that would be a good use of your experimental effort. That assumes the explosive properties of any UN/AN mix has beneficial explosive properties. Experimenting with the ratio of UN and AN in the mix should be tried too.

You would have to do X-ray crystallography to answer most of the structure related questions you proposed.

southpoorboy

July 12th, 2007, 01:44 AM

Hello I have about 300 grams just done of urea nitrate and was reading how to detonate it. Mr cool said that "...sensitiser would be good too, a few % of NG for example..." then I prepared about 30 grams of NG for that intention… But, and pardon my ignorance, is not a little dangerous the mixture of UN with NG? to where I get to imagine hidrolizacion of UN produces nitric acid and that would do to NG dangerously sensible… Perhaps UN is little hygroscopic and gives time sufficient to mix it with this hygroscopic agent NG…
In any case I am going to try to detonate UN in a tube of pvc or a deodorant tin using between 15 and 20 grams of pa pressed inside of an aluminum sewer of 1mm of thickness and I leave the NG for another little boom.

The_Duke

July 15th, 2007, 05:50 AM

"Hidrolizacion" is not a word, while "hydrolyzation" is a word. ;)

A urea nitrate dynamite was patented in the early 1900’s and I have stored urea nitrate and nitroglycerin dynamite for over a week before use without any traces of decomposition being evident. As long as the urea nitrate stays dry (once mixed, the nitroglycerin or blasting gel will help to keep the urea nitrate from sucking water from the air) and one is not storing said explosive for a ridiculously long period of time, it is fine to use the two together in combination with each other.

Though, be sure to still check for evidence of decomposition ie: The smell of nitrogen oxides and discoloration.

simply RED

July 17th, 2007, 07:31 AM

Mixing UN and NG makes no sense. Mix urea nitrate with ammonium nitrate and nitro glycerine with nitro cellulose (gel it) and/or metal powder.

Rbick

July 17th, 2007, 10:49 AM

Why not? I really don't know, I have never worked with UN and very little with NG, but from what I can assume, I would say the UN would desensitize the NG.

Plus UN is 6.5% oxygen defficient by mass. It requires 1/4 mol of O2 per mol of UN to fully oxidize. So I'm guessing the NG would be used to oxidize it. This seems to make sense, although I have never mixed the two, so I'm not sure how well they mix with each other.

Kleng

July 17th, 2007, 11:20 AM

Hello

I've just been outside trying to make some UN. And it went very well. Bought a 40 kilo sack of pure Urea very cheap today, so I'm planning to do a lot of experimenting.

For now, I have about 200g UN drying in my garage. Haven't really figured out how I'm going to detonate it, but will try different ways. Probably mix it with AN.

simply RED

July 17th, 2007, 05:19 PM

UN is low in energy content because carbamide does not produce high energy when oxidized. UN is also acidic.
Mix NG with NC or PETN to improve properties or even better - make EGDN.

Rbick

July 17th, 2007, 05:37 PM

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification RED. I had considered using UN, but I think I'll just stick with the NG and NC. I'll also be doing more research on energy content. Anyone know the formula for finding energy released by a compound when oxidized?

tintinteslacoil

July 18th, 2007, 01:21 AM

I attempted to make UN from the Improvised Munitions handbook. 10 cups urine, boiled to 1 cup (conc. to 10% volume), add 3/4 cup 90% HNO3. But, I got a piss-poor yield. Wasted a LOT of HNO3. I tried 4 oz. Urea crystals with 3/4 cup HNO3, worked a little better. Tried a silver acetalyde(?) blasting cap--the recipe called it "double salts". I used 1 pt UN, finely powdered, 1 pt. NaCLO3, powdered, 1 pt AL fine powder, 1 pt. NH4NO3, fine powder, in a 1/2 lb, 8 inch stick, as as a primer for two 8" sticks of 50:50 AN/Mineral oil. The KaBOOM really scared me. I didn't think it would work, just like most of the things in the IMH didn't.