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Trinitrotoluene
November 9th, 2003, 07:52 PM
I am wondering if it is possable to safely recover the spend acids after the nitration of glycerin? It may seem impossable, because the spend acids still contains small amounts of dissolved nitroglycerin, and heating it to boil off the water may not be a very good idea. I remember from reading book how industrial nitrators, after they're done with a nitration the spent acids are recovered and used in the next nitration, if this could be done for laboratory scale synthesis, it should make nitroglycerin synthesis more efficeient and cheap.


And which is a better choice for neutralizing nitroglycerin after it's precipitated out of the acids, ammonium hydroxide solution, or sodium bicarbonate?

blindreeper
November 10th, 2003, 02:14 AM
I have read that using ammonia solution breaks the nitro bonds so that puts me off it. I think it was brainfevers website. But apparently it didn't effect his NC. Personally I would go for the NaHCO3 but thats me because ammonia is more expensive :)

xyz
November 10th, 2003, 06:14 AM
I would use the NaHCO3, especially for something like nitro.

The ammonia is a much stronger base and therefore can lead to two major problems:

1. Much more heat produced when the nitro is neutralized
2. Basic nitro, which is supposedly almost as bad as acidic nitro (you want it NEUTRAL)

Nevermore
November 10th, 2003, 08:31 AM
i tried both way and i prefer the NaHCO3 one even if some time is really hard to neutralize the NG by this way. With ammonia the dose is too critical, instead with NaHCO3 i can just let it float for a couple of hours in a saturated solution to get perfectly neutral NG, BUT, some time i experienced that neutral NG returned acidic after some days of storage, i don't know really why, so i had to neutralize again. I suppose that storing in acetone increases the chances it get acidic when you evap the acetone, in fact i got two 2/2 times acidic NG after evaporating the acetone. I think i should check if my acetone is acidic, but at now, i am dealing with neutralizating the NG again.
The NaHCO3 way has one drawback, when you dry the Ng the saturated water leaves white dusts NaHCO3 particles, i don't think it will affect anything, but sometime is noticeable-

Trinitrotoluene
November 10th, 2003, 11:00 PM
Yeah, one thing I had realized is that my NG is really dificult to neutralize, after leaving it in sodium bicarbonate solution for a week undisturbed, the NG was extracted with a pipet into a 50ml beaker, and checked with PH paper, it stil regisiters acidic, while I check the Ph of the bicarbonate solution, it is basic, one thing I may had thought of is washing with ammonium hydroxide solution, than with distilled water to get the PH back to neutral, than you don't have to worry about undissolved bicarbonate inside your NG.

ALENGOSVIG1
November 10th, 2003, 11:56 PM
after leaving it in sodium bicarbonate solution for a week undisturbed

Thats most likely the problem. The NG should be rapidly stirred every once in a while. If not your exposing the same old surface of NG to the neutralizing solution.

Nevermore
November 11th, 2003, 05:48 AM
Even stirred it frequently happens the same to me, however i prefer not to go back to ammonia, i wonder if a very diluite solution of NaOH will do the job.
I tried washing with distilled water to remove the NaHCO3 particles, it simply doesn't work, i suppose is not easy for the water to reach them inside the NG, since the two liquids are not miscible.

Boomer
November 11th, 2003, 08:20 AM
I knew that problem too. Now my nitro is stable for years, even if washed only once with 2% bicarb solution. The problem IMO is to get a suspension with LOTS of surface area. I suppose most people are too careful and only stir slowly. Once the nitro is suspended in very fine droplets (must look like milk), it is safe. In industry they use mechanical stirrers, not only air for washing. They even transport it through pipes while in suspension – they never do this once it has separated to avoid a path for detonation between buildings.

I swirl the airtight flask until I get a milky mix, then shake it like hell as if it was a drink in a bar mixer. This is repeated whenever I walk past the flask for some days. My oldest sample is from 1987 and is still fine! I even thought of using an old milk-shake mixer, starting with the bicarb and slowly dropping the acidic nitro in. But NEVER re-power the mixer once the stuff has settled around the propeller blades...

P.S. Funny to be a newbie again after 20 years of ‘blasting around’….

pdb
November 12th, 2003, 06:29 AM
mr. evil: NG is used in medecine as a vaso-dilatator under the name of "trinitine", which is a solution of 1-2% of NG in ethanol. PETN pills are also used, for the same purpose.

------------
Sorry, this post replies to a post dated 28Jun02 ! I thought I was on the last page of the thread, while it was the second page only. Moderator, you may delete it if you wish.

Microtek
November 12th, 2003, 06:40 AM
If you don't like to shake the NG, then neutralization can also be done by dissolving it in acetone and adding solid ammonium bicarbonate. Then stirring for as long as it takes. Or you can desensitize it by adding nitromethane which is also imiscible with water and then shake it.

Trinitrotoluene
November 12th, 2003, 08:26 PM
Storeing nitroglycerin with acetone have one setback IMO. I took the PH of several samples of acetone from different sources, all are somewhat acidic having the PH of 5-6. swim had also tried to neutralize the acetone with sodium bicarbonate, but it woulden't dissolve, guess it's insoluable. swim also atempted to dissolve nitroglycerin into acetone, and reprecipiate it with water containing sodium bicarbonate, also works to some extent but still acidic. I am guessing dissolving into acetone containing ammonium bicarbonate is the best way to go.

Microtek
November 13th, 2003, 02:36 AM
The idea isn't that the bicarbonate has to dissolve in the acetone to any great extent, but simply be suspended in a finely divided state. By stirring this for a long time and testing the pH of the acetone, you will see that it becomes neutral or very slightly alkaline. Then the acetone is decanted into water which precipitates the NG.

nbk2000
November 13th, 2003, 05:28 PM
Acetone is soluble in water and so is bicarb. Dissolve the two together to nuetralize, then distill to seperate out the acetone.

If you wanted to get fancy with it, you could form a crystalline ketone-bisulphite complex using rust remover, then reform using HCl. See Vogel's or Strike's Total Synthesis for details.

Nevermore
November 15th, 2003, 08:58 AM
I made some ammonia dynamite a few days ago for testing purposes.
Around 5 ml of NG were added to dry powdered NH4NO3 in a film can, 10% NaHCO3 has been previously added to AN. In a couple of days the cap popped out so much ammonia has been developed, i found the mix smelling strongly of ammonia, while the nitro has collected mainly on the bottom layer.
I suppose there is a better way of making ammonia dyn since i don't trust so much is this one.

Next time i will try about adding NG to powdered marble, that should be mainly CaCO3, it should not give out any problem.

I found a faster way of neutralizating NG, simply i wash it a few times, then collect from the water with a pipette and add dropwise to NaHCO3 solution, after it has collected on the bottom i use an acquarium pump to keep it in finely divided state and constantly stirring, in a couple of hours it is perfectly neutral.
I had bad experiences with acetone, since my NG got back acidic EVERY time i evap the acetone, which turned to be a little acidic too, i suppose the paint acetone isn't very pure..

Mendeleev
November 21st, 2003, 11:15 PM
Just how much less stable is acidic nitro? On mega's site it says that unless it is neutral it will explode :confused:? Furthermore many procedures mentioned outline a process for washing nitroglycerine with salt water. I know glycerine is very polar due to 3 OH groups all on one side, which is why it is so viscous, so it would most likely dissolve salt. Well nitroglycerine is also viscous (having 3 NO2 groups replace the OH groups), which leads me to assume that it is also polar, so wouldn't washing it with salt cause salt impurities, or is the water more polar and keeps most of the salt? What effect would salt impurities have on the nitro?

postalwarrior
November 22nd, 2003, 12:10 AM
how do u make nitro?

Mendeleev
November 22nd, 2003, 12:28 AM
Are you asking me how to make nitro or how specifically I make nitro?

mr.pyro
November 22nd, 2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by postalwarrior
how do u make nitro?


Read the topic.

simply RED
November 22nd, 2003, 06:16 AM
NH4NO3 + NaHCO3 = NaNO3 + NH4HCO3(NH3gas + H2Ogas or liq + CO2gas)

ALENGOSVIG1
November 22nd, 2003, 01:17 PM
I've never noticed any ammonia smell coming from ammonia dynamite dynamite.

Then again I never added 10% sodium bicarbonate. :p

Only use about .5-1% in your ammonia dynamite.

Nevermore
November 23rd, 2003, 08:27 AM
i will try reducing the amount of NaHCO3 to avoid the massive formation of gas, beside that i noticed that the AN + NaHCO3 + NG tends to became hard, even if the formation of H2O should make it more soft. probably the NaNO3 has different properties than NH4NO3.

grewal_24
December 8th, 2003, 05:58 PM
"Hello everybody , i'm new to this forum I hope i have your full cooperation and if do make mistakes please let me know ."

i have doing some research on
nitroglycerine. I have 90% concentrated Nitric acid
(HNO3) and 98% Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) and Glycerine
with all the apparautus.
According to NBK2000 site the information regarding the proportion of the comtents is given as

Nitric acid 70% ---- 30%
Sulphuric acid 98% ----70%
Glycerine 1/6 of the total weight of the acid (hno3 + h2so4 mixture )
OR
Nitric acid 100% ---- 38%
Sulphuric acid 98% ---- 62%
Glycerine 1/6 of the total weight of the acid (hno3 + h2so4 mixture )

depending on the above information i calclutated the proportion of the contents i have depending on the concentration as
Nitric acid 90% ---- 35.33%
Sulphuric acid 98% ---- 64.66%
Glycerine 1/6 of the total weight of the acid (hno3 + h2so4 mixture )

Please confirm if the above calcultaion is correct if not please will it be possible for anybody to give me the right proportion of the
contents in percentage depending on the concentration i have for each content


-Garry

keith
December 9th, 2003, 08:31 PM
My NG is unbelievably hard to detonate. I have to hit is as hard as possinle with a hammer for it to detonate. Is there something wrong with it or does it just have a bad name because of anarchist kids making it and killing themsalves with it?
Small crystal-like flakes have appeared in my NG after about 3 months or storage at room temp. My Ng has NO acid left in it and has been stored in distilled water until about 5 days ago.
This thread has gotten huge!

nbk2000
December 9th, 2003, 08:39 PM
Capitalize the letter I when referring to yourself. Using it like you have is similar to saying:

"i am a moron because i don't know how to form a proper sentence because i never went to school, being too busy slinging crack in da 'hood to bother learning to use the mastaz's language properly so i'll never be doing better than slinging burgers at micky D's for the rest of i'ze life. :("

rather than:

"I know how to form a sentence because I capitalize the letter "I" when referring to myself...something I learned in the first grade because I went to the State Sheeple Indoctrination Facility but I have since thrown off their shackles from my mind and refuse to be a proper sheeple citizen by going to RS.org where I can learn to make things my teachers would never approve of. :)"

;)

Get the point?

And what's up with:


"Hello everybody , i'm new to this forum I hope i have your full cooperation and if do make mistakes please let me know ."


Well no shit, huh? I never would have known that you were a newbie if you hadn't pointed that out to me because I'm too stupid to see the word "Newbie" under your name, or realize that a post count of 1 means that you haven't been posting here for years. :rolleyes:

OUR full cooperation? Why don't YOU cooperate by not mutilating the english language and bothering to construct at least semi-coherent sentences, rather than the gibberish you posted?

And what "NBK2000 site" are you referring to? I don't have a website. Haven't for years. Invoking my name doesn't automatically give credence to your drivel and could, in fact, rouse a rather angry demon from its slumber. :p

grewal_24
December 10th, 2003, 09:22 PM
As far as the NBK2000 site is concerned it was available at the link
" http://www.50megs.com/nbk2000/index.com " but not anymore . Now it is avaiable in PDF format of 432 pages and the Nitroglycerine synthesis method is given on page number 161 .It's a 3.7 MB size of PDF file. I hope this helps u in remembering ur own site .

I want to make Nitroglycerine using the method avaiable on "Brainfevers" site link to which is " http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/NGsynth.html " as it has pictorial information of each and every step .

But at brainfevers site the proportion of the acids (HNO3 , H2So4 and Glycerine ) is avaiable as follows

100 ml of >95% H2SO4 (sulfuric acid)
70 ml of 65% HNO3 (nitric acid)
22 ml of 100% C3H5(OH)3 (glycerol)

My problem is i that i have the contents with the following concentration .

HNO3 with 90% concentration.
H2So4 with 98% concentration.
Glycerine with 100% concentration.

All i want to know is that what would be the proportion of ( HNO3 , H2SO4 and Glycerine) with the concentration i have to produce a good yield of Nitroglycerine.


I hope there were no gramatical mistakes this time
:)

Rosco Bodine
December 10th, 2003, 10:12 PM
GB382123 describes some preferred ratios for the nitration
of glycerin , and also for ethylene glycol .

grewal_24
December 10th, 2003, 10:37 PM
What is "GB382123" and how do i get access to it , if you can give me the link it's would be great and thanks for the help Rosco Bodine .

Regards ,
Garry

Rosco Bodine
December 10th, 2003, 10:53 PM
Highlight and copy GB382123 , then go to the page below
and paste the term in the middle box on the page ,

http://ep.espacenet.com/espacenet/ep/en/e_net.htm

follow the links and save or print the pdf for the patent ,
It's a keeper .

EDIT : I just checked and it looks like the old gateway
is messed up so try the following link instead and paste
the term into the second box . Then click on the title
line for the patent and then on the next page click the
tab for the original document .
ESPACENET has "upgraded" their software
recently to a new improved clusterfuck version , so we
all can suffer from slowass buggy access and page
loading .

http://ep.espacenet.com/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe?Action=FormGen&Template=ep/en/number.hts

EDIT #2:

Hold the phone folks , I found one of the old version gateways for
ESPACENET that looks like it is still working .
The old version worked great so those gateways are more
desirable . So try the following page using the first instructions .

http://ie.espacenet.com/

Boomer
December 12th, 2003, 02:58 PM
Maybe it helps to calculate backwards from the ideal mix of spent acids. In an industrial book I once read that the ideal waste acid, dissolving + decomposing under 3% of the NG, has 70% SA and 15% each NA and water. Calculating back from this, I got yields above 90% (with destilled NA).

This percentages also show that with 96-98% SA, anything below approx.55% NA gives no yield. That is it does give 70% yield, but of the dinitrate! As this is completely soluble both in the spent acids and the washing water, most people pour it down the drain and weep. If it is extracted with ether and the ether evaporated, it can be used for a second nitration step a.k.a. TNT. This can give you at least some trinitrate (NG). Or it can be dried (it crystallised with water, but is an oil if anhydrous) and used as is. Sensitivity and power are ‘not much below the trinitrate’ according to Beilstein. Even the mononitrate (from even weaker acids, or only NA) can be used, e.g. as a sensitising fuel for AN.

I wasted lots of acid before I knew all this…..

Rosco Bodine
December 12th, 2003, 06:19 PM
Check archive , batch methods for nitroglycerine ,
see post by shady mutha Feb. 13 , 2001

There are ratios given for 90 per cent nitric .

Nitrations proceed smoothly within certain limits and there
is usually a range of concentrations above and below a
line on a graph where optimum yield and economy are not always
exactly the same . Industrial processes have generally been
worked out according to economic considerations . For a
non-industrial synthesis it is often possible to still get usable
yields with lower economy , using reactions that are not done
under exactly optimum conditions , but approximate as closely
as possible the ideal . There is probably a reference chart
similar to the Urbanski chart for the nitration of PETN which
could be applied to other nitrations equally well .

A proposed nitration process should be worked out on paper
before proceeding with the real thing . It is good to look
at the beginning composition of the nitration mixture and
note how the water content increases and how the residual
percentages of acids change as each nitro group is introduced .
It is actually possible to create reaction zone conditions which
are constant during a nitration , especially with regard to
water content , by using a scheme where the thing being nitrated
is already mixed with sulfuric acid before addition to a nitration
mixture . It is a similar strategy as is used for producing
crystalline products from two different solutions mixed together
gradually , so that the compositon of the reaction mixture
is identical for the first crystal which precipitates , as it is
for the last . When a nitration can be designed to proceed
according to a constant dynamic , the reaction goes smoothly
and predictably well . It is tedious to chart such reactions
on a graph and do many "theoretical nitrations" using
what precursors are available to you , but that is the logical
starting point for trying a new method . As experiments proceed
and actual yields are compared , you can fine tune the process until
you find the optimum ratios for your approach . It usually takes
four or five experiments to reveal data for establishing a graph
which can be studied to make an educated guess what
will be optimum ratios for a particular batch process . Once
you have that "best recipe" determined , then you have your
answer .

There was a separate patent for ethylene glycol which l
meant to list before . It may be useful to make the EGDN
as an alternative if problems are encountered with regular nitro .

US1206223 ethylene glycol dinitrate

grewal_24
December 15th, 2003, 05:15 PM
Hi! Rosco Bodine , you have been a great help. The information i have been looking for the past 2 months you gave it to me in just one day . I'm really thankful to you for all the help.
Regards,
Garry.

grewal_24
December 15th, 2003, 08:03 PM
Hi,

When i bought 90% Fuming Nitric Acid (HNO3 ). It was sealed inside a thermocol covering and when i brought it back at my place and opened the covering i learned that the plastic cap on the bottle was eaten away by the acid and the fumes were coming out ,it had also eaten some part of the thermocol and the fumes were coming from the nitric acid . It took me around 4 -5 days to get a glass bottle cap to stop the fumes . Now my concern is that by what percentage of the concentration of the Nitric Acid might have gone down and what procedure can i use to determine the concentration of the acid.
I had tried attempting the synthesis of Nitroglycerine using the procedure on BRAINFEVERS site using

Nitric acid 90% ---- 35.33%
Sulphuric acid 98% ---- 64.66%
Glycerine 1/6 of the total weight of the acid (hno3 + h2so4 mixture )

as the content proportion.

and i did manage to make Nitro( i hope thats what i have ) , but i didn't mix it with sodium bicarbonate all i did was washed it with water . It was very acidic now as per the blue litmus paper . Initially the color of the Nitro was milky white but slowly after few days it has turned transparent .Is this normal or there is some defect in my yield . I had bottled the Nitro in a glass bottle , it's now around 10-15 days i made it . I had gone out on a vaccation and after i came back i found red fumes in the bottle above the nitro as the bottle was closed from top the fumes remained in the bottle . I immediately filled the bottle with water and left it open . Now the bottle has Nitro (i hope it is ) as a transparent layer at the bottom of the bottle with water on top.I don't know why those fed fumes appeared was there something wrong in the Nitro and will the concentration of Nitro go down with the water in it .
Now as i've mananged to make Nitro how do i test the purity of my yield . How can i SAFE detonate it to find out what i made is Nitro . I don't want to get hurt or hurt someone so what would be the best way to safe detonate Nitro .How powerful is Nitro

Regards,
-Garry.

ALENGOSVIG1
December 15th, 2003, 09:03 PM
The above post proves that you know nothing about nitro, and are too lazy to look it up or god forbid read the thread you are posting in. Anyone who prepares nitro with that kind of LACK of knowledge is an absolute moron.

Mendeleev
December 16th, 2003, 12:38 PM
Indeed I agree with you Alegngosvig, but I suppose he should know before he blows his arms off. You have NO2 fumes because NG has traces of nitric acid left in it, which you for some reason did not neutralize, and now it has decayed to form gas. Just do the sodium bicarbonate rinse procedure, otherwise it's unstable. To safely detonate be far away ;). Did you even read the thread, man?

Bert
December 16th, 2003, 12:56 PM
You might want to remind him it's also probably getting ready to go off on it's own and he should F***ing get rid of it carefully and quickly- And not play with S*** he doesn't understand fully in the future. I don't usualy comment in the HE section as it's not my field of expertise. But this kid needs to be whacked upside the head before he blows up his mom's house! Screw trying to detonate it, kid. Go out somewhere and pour your batch on a big piece of cardboard, light a dry edge and get the hell away before the nitro soaked part starts to burn.

Boomer
December 16th, 2003, 02:55 PM
OK I know nothing about chemistry compared to Mega etc. but there is one thing I cannot believe on his page, i.e. about nitro detonating on its own if acidic. This may be true for industrial batches, in airtight, pressure resistant containers where the NOx cannot escape, and accelerate the decomposition till the whole batch overheats. Small batches with a vented cover (or in an open container under water) simply decompose over weeks into shit (glycide + stuff IIRC).

The thing about the higher sensitivity is true though. Firstly small gas bubbles sensitise every liquid explosive, secondly the nitrogen oxides and the nitrites are very unstable with fuels (the partly decomposed nitro) in themselves.

Garry, if you want to dispose it safely, mix it with acetone and burn it on a cloth. If you want to see its power, put ONE drop on an anvil and hit it hard with a hammer. Or let ONE drop fall onto a hot iron plate (no thin sheet) of ca. 257C. If the plate is colder, it evaporates. If it is hotter, it burns. If it is just right, it sits there for a moment, then detonates. To find the best spot, heat the plate at one edge only, and search for the ideal spot (this test is from Beilstein). Use eye + ear protection of course, and don’t get it on your skin, or inhale the vapours, it give f***ing headaches! When it detonates in these tests, you can still save the batch by neutralisation, but DO RESEARCH and read up before you try again!

People here have mercy, I started with nitro 23 years ago, and mine was unwashed too and turned into slime within two weeks. Now it stores for years after I learned …..

grewal_24
December 18th, 2003, 04:19 PM
Thank you all for helping me

grewal_24
December 18th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Hi! ,
I did manage to make Nitroglycerine and stored it in a glass bottle . After few days there was red NO2 gases in the jar above the Nitroglycerine.I immediately filled it with water and ever since it has water in it . The Nitro settled at the bottom and water above because of the density difference .It's been in water for the past 10 days .My concern is now that will the Nitroglycerine disintegrate and loose it's power in water ,if it does what would be the rate.

I have planned to use the "Multi-Strand/Single Strand Bridge Wire Technique" detonator to detonate Nitroglycerine and by using a 9-12v standard car battery as the current source .Regarding this "Multi-Strand/Single Strand Bridge Wire Technique" detonator i got the information from the NBK2000 site which can be downloaded in a PDF format from the link which is given under most of NBK2000 posts .
Is this technique good enough to detonate Nitroglycerine . How far would be a safe distance to stand if i'm trying to detonate 100 ml of Nitro.
Regards,
Garry.

Ps: I'm attaching the pic of the Multi-Strand/Single Strand Bridge Wire Technique detonator

Mendeleev
December 22nd, 2003, 12:07 AM
If you won't have any shrapnel flying, I suppose, 20-30 meters would be safe. If shrapnel, then go beyond 60m just in case. That's a nice diagram. Anyway, have you neutralized the NG yet? That's one of the most important steps. Pen caps are a pain in the ass, I just weld copper pipe for caps.

wrench352
December 22nd, 2003, 02:12 AM
Ya know,its usually hard to be mean to Canadians,but in this case........

Hey stupid,yes you Garry,where to begin,
My gf who knows shit about science,chemistry or glycerol trinitrate found this in 5 minutes:
ther must not be any acid in it. It must be washed extremely well! not just with water either. It is very sensitive when unwashed. it is quite easy to detonate some unwashed ng with a hammer but very well washed stuff is quite hard to set off.
so are you too stupid or cheap to BUY FUCKING BAKING SODA?

within ten minutes of research I then found this courtesy of Mega's site:
without observing proper safety procedures. I was out of ice. Let me just say how important it is to keep this lab cool and slow. Nitrogen dioxide, a dense red-brown gas that is very deadly, it is the reward for nitro gone wrong. I used cool water instead of ice because I never believed all those warnings. Now I do. I began slowly adding the glycerine - not a change on the thermometer. I figured what the hell, I squirted all the glycerine in, stirred it up, checked for a temperature rise, and removed it from the coolant water. I set it on the dresser and stepped out for a minute. When next I looked down the hall and into my back bedroom, a plume of red smoke and acid was shooting out of the flask with increasing intensity

let me highlight something because I can see your kind of dim:


Nitrogen dioxide, a dense red-brown gas that is very deadly, it is the reward for nitro gone wrong

actually Im curious if your around to read this.Im told to fix your problem take your flask or bottle and shake vigorously.This is know as the Darwin Fix,a trade secret!!!
As far as NBK's detonators,man I dont know about him.better wait for him to answer your question.
P.S ever heard Toby Keith's "The Angry American"?Just curious,'cause I'm a curious guy
P.S.S.BRAIN EATING ZOMBIES!

grewal_24
December 22nd, 2003, 05:02 PM
Ofcourse i'm around and very well alive.

I did not neutralise the NG as it makes it hard to detonate and i want it to detonate as easily as possible .I do agree with you that i don't have lot of kowledge on NG , thats the reson why i'm taking help of u guys.

The Nitrogen Dioxide did not appear while the synthesis but it appeared in the glass bottle it was stored in after around 20 days after it's synthesis , as you mentioned that the appearance of Nitrogen Dioxide means something is wrong with NG does that mean it's not good anymore .

I tried detonating around 20 ml of NG by putting it in a pen and putting a fuse used in fire cracker and it just burn't the whole thing with no explosion . What went wrong or is this not the right way to detonate NG .

I tried burning few drops of NG on a hot plate but putting drop by drop on the hot plate and it burn't with blue flame and it gave me a severe headache this shows that it is NG .

Next i'm planning to use the Multi-Strand/Single Strand Bridge Wire Technique detonator to detonte and use a battery of 9 v to detonate it .Can anybody tell me is this a fine method to detonate NG if no can anybody suggest a good easy detonator to detonate NG .

Regards,
Garry.

wrench352
December 22nd, 2003, 10:23 PM
I feel as though you are a danger to yourself and others ,you should mix your NG with acetone and flush it down the toilet.Do more research before you synthesize this again.Your questions are easily answered,if you were only to look them up yourself.You do know what your doing is exceptionally dangerous,and not something to be rushed into.Take a second go to page one of this thread,look at the problems a senoir member here faced,and he was experienced.

Mr Cool
December 23rd, 2003, 09:53 AM
Garry,

"You're a COCK! Go away!"

Hang-Man
December 23rd, 2003, 10:27 AM
Between you and...someone else...people on this forum are going to think Canadians are retarded. Go here untill you learn to play with the big kids:
http://disney.go.com/park/homepage/today/html/index.html

nbk2000
December 23rd, 2003, 04:51 PM
The "multi-strand, single strand detonator" is NOT an exploding bridgewire detonator. It IS a means of electrically igniting a primary explosive in a proper detonator case. Learn the difference. How you could have confused the two, considering how you have my PDF which goes into great detail about construction of detonators, is beyond me.

Unless, of course, you mangled the english language by making your sentences barely comprehensible and easily subject to mis-understanding. :p

Bert, you don't have to censor yourself with F*** and S***. We all know what you mean and it looks funny when you do that here.

Mendeleev
December 23rd, 2003, 09:07 PM
"I did not neutralise the NG as it makes it hard to detonate and i want it to detonate as easily as possible"


We tried to help you man, but for Christ's sake how dense are you? I think it would be best if you took that nitroglycerine and shoved it straight up your ass, because that way when your improperly stored and neutralized NG goes off, it'll protect everyone else with a brain from the blast. From the numerous messages you've posted I think its clear to all of us that you are a moron. You can't even detonate one of the most sensitive explosives around, and you're not taking any of our advice about how to neutralize it or store it. So just get lost, because aside from not even reading the thread, you don't take any advice from people who have experience even though you asked for it. What a freakin idiot :mad:.

grewal_24
December 24th, 2003, 02:04 PM
I'm sorry Mendeleev , i shall post a next message only after i neautralise the NG and after i go through this thread completely . I hope then u will help then .
But before that atleast u can suggest some decent and easy to make detonator to detonate NG .

Regards,
Garry.

------------------
That one got you banned.

Rhadon

Mendeleev
January 8th, 2004, 09:46 PM
For anyone who lives in the southeastern United States, buy your glycerine in the pharmacy section of a grocery store called Publix, because their's costs $1.50 per 4 oz (118 mL) whereas pharmacies such as CVS, Eckerds, and Wallgreens sell their for $3 for the same quantity. Plus the CVS is unlabeled except for "pure glycerine" and the stuff I get is label at %99.5, which is good to know. It is made by "Humco" in Texarkana, TX 75501.

wrench352
January 8th, 2004, 11:18 PM
I found some "gourmet" stuff once,Superol by Procter and Gamble Chemicals Natural Origin,Kosher, Glycerin. Although the bottle is marked 99.7% certificate of analysis states "Calc From Sp. Gravity": 99.9%. I know that .4% really means nothing, but when they say pure, this is the purest I've ever seen.

MrMagnum
January 11th, 2004, 06:07 AM
Hi you guys,

ever heard of glycerinedinitrate? It's made of glycerine and nitric acid. Not as powerful as glycerinetrinitrate (nitroglycerine), but much safer: It cannot explode during the nitration and it is three times less sensitive to impact or shock compared to nitroglycerine. Therefore I believe it is a much better choice for nonprofessional production than nitroglycerine.

ALENGOSVIG1
January 11th, 2004, 05:51 PM
I'm not sure but isn't DNG soluble in water? That'd make extraction and neutralization difficult. Besides, DNG is way less powerful than NG. I think making NG and being careful with it or perhaps dissolving it in acetone would be a better choice.

MrMagnum
January 12th, 2004, 02:07 AM
DNG is only slightly more soluble in water than NG. It has about 80% of its power. I read about a lead block test where NG and DNG were compared.

There are several production methods for DNG or mixtures of DNG and NG. Some methods require to add certain salts to the nitration to increase the density of the acid. This lets the DNG swim on the acid. Otherwise it would indeed be difficult to extract ist. I read in an old German patent that even a forced runaway nitration can never ever cause an explosion.

It sounds very safe to me.

al93535
February 16th, 2004, 04:08 AM
When I made a small batch, the NG floated on TOP of the acids in small droplets, I was lead to believe it settles out to the bottom. I used 75 ml 97% H2SO4, 40 grams NH4NO3, and 9 ml glycerin. The yield was quite bad, and I am thinking of a way to collect the product. I have read through all these posts, and have seen pictures stating the NG accumulated at the bottom, and others on top of the spent acids. Why the differences?

Boomer
February 16th, 2004, 08:05 AM
... and have seen pictures stating the NG accumulated at the bottom, and others on top of the spent acids. Why the differences?

Your signature is fitting! Maybe you should read the synth again, e.g. on ALENG’s or mega’s site? First it sits at the top of the acids, and later below the washing water!

And for an absolute beginner, 9ml is no small batch! It gives (ideally) 25 grams of NG, enough to blow off both your hands and blind you with glass missiles through the goggles.

OK, I cannot stop you anyway, so here is a very safe method: Your ratios were not bad, I mix 75ml of 96% sulphuric acid with 50g AN and put it in the deep freezer set to max. power (-25C) overnight. During the next morning, I add 11ml of glycerine in four portions with good swirling, and put it back for 1-2 hours each time. Even if you SHOULD add ONE portion very fast, the temp will only shoot from –25C to –10C each time, that’s why it is safe (thermal mass cannot jump to 30C). Of course you WILL add them SLOWLY and WATCH THE TEMP to get a feeling for the process. You have a thermometer, ehh?
I give it a few good shakings over the afternoon (putting it back in the freezer each time), and in the evening pour it into a litre of cold water. The NG settles at the bottom and can be sucked out, washed again with water, with bicarb, with water… look the process up on the above sites again before you start.
The reason you only saw a few drops is that most is suspended in the thick liquid. Yield for this method is around 50% of theory or 10ml of neutralised NG.

And SCALE IT DOWN the first time, please!

al93535
February 16th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Boomer,

I read the synth from Mega, Brainfever, and Aleng's PDF. many times. Thanks for clarifying the NG on top of acids, then on bottom of washing water though. However after dumping into the water the NG still floated on top, perhaps not enough water, I used little over double the volume of acid for distilled water. I do have a thermometer, and I watch the temperature very close, I want to be safe.
I see that you leave your mix nitrating for quite a while, most of the day. I let mine nitrate only about 30 minutes because of what I have read it can dissolve back into the acid mix. Would you suggest I let it nitrate in the ice bath for say 6 hours? I do believe I will take your suggestion and scale it down 1/3, for safety until I get some experience with NG. Thanks for your help!

atlas#11
February 17th, 2004, 02:59 PM
I am reasonably new to nitroglycerine and have been doing small batches of less than a ml and have had sucess but now I wan't enough to play with. So I am trying brainfevers synthesis(the NH4 one) and right now the glycerine is slowly driping in at about 0.5 ml every 3 min. is this slow enough? the temp is at 6C and holding so I think i'm safe there, my main concern is the small chuncks of ammonium nitrate that are floating on the surface. They are small like 6-7mm and there are about 6 of them and since that would make the nitro more sensitive I was wondering how to stir it. They are slowly disolving so I will probably just wait till they disolve but want an experienced persons advice. In the future I will grind it up better and add it slowly to avoid cacking but given it's solubility I really didn't think it would creat a problem. Oh well, hope I don't die.

EDIT:, well it appeared to be working up untill I started decanting and adding water and it dissapered in an instant, this cannot be blamed on decomposition because there was 10+ ml in there and then poof, gone! I saved all of the decants and the original liquid and will look for any signs as to what happened.

al93535
February 17th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Atlas,

Same thing happened to me. I decided to filter the NG through a coffee filter because it wouldn't settle out, was suspened even though I added it to water. I ended up getting about 1ml of NG. Then I took the filter and added it to 500ml water, it finally settled to the bottom, and I neutralized it. I am going to make some nitric acid and try that route.

atlas#11
February 17th, 2004, 06:46 PM
Ahh so it is suspended and not destroied, thank god. I will try that. At least I have a chance to get some even if it is a small ammount. I was hoping to save up enough to fill a small 50ml asprin bottel with it and set it off under this big ass root that is just sitting at the bottom of a mekp crater. I'll reach the center of the earth someday :rolleyes: .

Myrol
February 21st, 2004, 09:48 AM
Im looking for a way to make really big amounts NG compared to the typical 50ml-mark! I planned a five time huger volume NG so what way should be the best? Its no question that the Nitration with 99% Nitric Acid is the prefered way but unfortunately my Distillation apparatus was to weak to Distill more than 30ml-Batches Nitric out of these crappy KNO3-Sulfuric mix! I tried yesterday a batch with 700g Nitrate and 600ml Sulfuric but it sucks totally! No single drop was given off (Fuck the Hell!) and i rescued the pretty puddle into a special Nitric bottle (Glass and Teflon). Nitration with these Mud is only wasting time! I promise there must be a way to get fuming Nitric Acid! Probably i have to study the Nitric section, right? Lets take a look.

grendel23
February 21st, 2004, 02:50 PM
Let me see if I have this right, you can't manage to make HNO<sub>3</sub>, and you want to make "really big amounts" of a sensitive powerful HE. Are you planning to put this on the shelf next to the liter of MEKP you mentioned in another thread?
At the rate you are going, you will likely kill yourself. I don't have a problem with that, fools die, but you will probably take several others with you, further stigmatizing energetic materials and those who dabble in them.
Read some of the threads about accidents, if any of them involved the quantities of material you want to play with, they would have been fatal.
When the more experienced members around here want to do a large charge, they do what the pros do, they use a sensitized AN explosive, they are cheaper and safer to use in quantity.

atlas#11
February 21st, 2004, 04:07 PM
I will have to side with grendel, large ammounts of nitro + unexperienced user will nine times out of ten result in a fatal accident. Unless you are providing incredable safety margins, making more than 50ml is quite stupid on your part. I don't see the need either, 50ml of NG should be able to destroy anything in your back yard any ways, so why bother? Of course it is much more efficient to make it all in one batch but if you don't know what your doing (wich from your post it dosen't seem like it.) then I suggest you stick to smaller batches.

OK, after filtering the nitro mix I let it sit and sit and sit, and today I looked at it and this brown material has formed and settled to the bottom. What it was is beyond me but I threw out the entire ammount of it and will start over later. Has any one else had this problem? This brown crud could be just an impurity but my fear is that it was some compound formed from the decomposing nitro. when ever I get more SA I will try it with a longer nitration time and see if it helps, is there any risks involved in letting it sit too long? I don't see what could go wrong at 6C but would like to be sure. I was using brain fevers methode but it's a little vauge, has any body followed it to the word?

Myrol
February 21st, 2004, 05:52 PM
Hey Guys dont pee me on my leg :mad: I made NG several times and my largest NG-Blast was done with 70ml milky-one! I remember each Batch and i made 5ml, 8ml, 12ml, 25ml, 23ml, 34ml, 40ml, 20ml and 70ml! (I notized every one in a book). Everything together it was 237ml :D The best thing with NG is the really hard BAAAMM and the hard Shockwave! My 8kg ANFO-Charge and my 0,55kg Ammonalcharge was not as same sharp as the NG!! Fuck the Hell, you know that NG is not so supersensitive as many people think and i knew it also because NG needs more than a hard punch from a Hammer to ignite! Oh shit, ive forgotten the uncounteble one or two or three-milliliter tests on my Balkony. It was everytime a craze when the Testtube was broken into Atoms and the Pressure "knocks" on the Balconys door :p Nobody can see everything bevore it happens, but EVERYBODY has a human sense to do no inhumanical activities! Damnit, it tends to make me sore when unknown people think they could do some thing much better than me :mad: (It means NOT that i make no mistakes!). Listen, Nobel mades NG in amounts uncountable and huger than everyone could expect, with permanent success and some accidents! 250ml NG made by a 17teen Year old German Guy is this too much? Believe me, im very intrested to stay healthy and stay in healthy Friendship with my enviroment, so i take care with everything what i do when i make Explosives! The 1,15Liters MEKP are in the Cellar and NOT in my Room! (What do i here? Im talking with a wall :eek: ) Enough shit, probalby im able to make my 250ml or not! Good-washed NG was really stable enough to transport it in a Backpack with care! Dynamites are not as strong as pure NG and thats not my target! Than i could use much cheaper ANNM or ANFO ehh? I NEED the might of pure NG!!! capice? Pss: Dont take this words personally, im sorry for this shitty text, but i was fucking Angry and thats not my guilt ehh? (The 8kg ANFO-Charge produces only a crater 2m wide and 1m deep!! :confused: SHIT)

atlas#11
February 21st, 2004, 08:05 PM
I don't mean to preach safety but I'm paranoid, deal with it! From your post it didn't seem like you had made any previously so that would make me wory. When someone is making large quantities of a powerfull high explosives and could kill him/her self, possibly because of information that "my friend" gave him tends to make me nervous. Not that I care about your well being but it raises statistics and the government will get more and more pressure to stop it in any way possible. Just out of curiosity, what do you intend to do with a "large ammount" of nitro? Dynamite? Or are you just wanting to make a series of smaller booms?

You are right though, nitro can be made in larger batches safely. But nobel did lose a brother to it, and had quite a few accidents so don't go thinking it's completely safe just because it takes a hell of a hammer blow to set it off, all it takes is that one and a million chance to happen once and your dead. I never said I can make it better or safer than you I was just saying that unexperienced people should not be mucking around with NG. You sounded like you were unexperienced so I assumed you were I now know that I was wrong, I appoligize.

Now back on topic. Do you use NH4NO3 or KNO3 when you make nitro and do you have problems with getting it to seperate out after adding it to cold or ice water? When I added mine to the ice water it seemed to dissolve in to it. I let it sit for quite some time with no luck. I have aquired some sulfuric and am wanting to do some tests but would like to avoid past problems. Sorry if this post or previous posts have not contributed to the forum, but in order for me to contribute I think I should get to know my stuff before posting bull shit.

NightStalker
February 22nd, 2004, 01:40 AM
Myrol, your english is practically incoherent.

What the hell are you going on about? :confused:

grendel23
February 22nd, 2004, 01:41 AM
Myrol,
I didn't intend to pee on your leg (well maybe a little):p, but my purpose was to discourage what I perceived as a foolhardy action by a inexperienced experimenter. You apparently are more experienced than your previous posts would indicate, but I still stand by the advice to scale back your activities.
I have made NG myself, I know it can be done with reasonable safety, as long as you are knowledgeable and careful, but even then there is a chance of disaster.
I have a stepson who is 16, and like many his age, he doesn't yet belive that bad things can happen to him. At 41, I KNOW bad things can happen to me and therefore attempt to minimize the consequences beforehand. I belive I can make NG as well and as safely as you, but I would have to have a very good reason to make more than about 20ml at a time.
If you feel the need for huge amounts of HE, you should learn to make a less sensitive one, PETN, RDX or ETN will perform as well as NG and are much safer.

Myrol
February 22nd, 2004, 12:02 PM
Yes i knew i have a horrible English but say this to my Teacher not to me! (She has a freaky Englishstyle, unfortunately....). My 70ml Batch NG was made in one step! It was durable milky after manufacturing and also bevor blewing away...I had 2 Pictures from it but i have no Homepage to upload it :rolleyes: The only thing to gave you the pics is to send them somebody here per E-Mail and he uploads it to the ftp probably! The Crater was 80cm in Diameter and 30cm deep! Lots of Grass reduced the Effect, but the Thunder was great! It sounds a litle bit crazy but i stated with NG when i started the Chemistry with Explosives! I made no Blackpowder or Flash bevore.....No, i tooked a Distillating apparatus distilled some Nitric for myself with KNO3 and Sulfuric and get Busy with making NG.........I wrote in an older post that Nitric costs me much Work to make, yes thats right! For the 70ml i must distilled three batches Sulfuric-KNO3 to had enough Acid for 70ml NG! The other amounts NG were ever made with one fresh puddle pissy Yellow Nitric!!! I need the 250ml NG for a Cratertest compared with AP or APAN! 400g NG under same conditions how 400g AP or APAN! The NG was stronger, thats sure but wich mark?

atlas#11
February 22nd, 2004, 12:36 PM
:eek: May I request that you don't make that much AP? You may be experienced but no one in their right mind would make 400g of AP, unless they had never heard of it's instability. with the rest of the large ammounts explosives around you you should use a diffrent one, MEKP would be infinetly safer and according to you, you already have it. If you already have 400g of AP I sugest you preform that test imediatly and pay some homless guy to move it for you. I sugest you search the forum for AP related accidents and then tell me how safe it is. I have never had any go off by accident but I have never made more than 10 grams and always stored it under bicarb water for any ammount of time, same goes for HMTD always under water. The largest ammount of HE my friend has ever made was around 70g mekp and it was detonated the next day in a small bottel with a good cap. Do my nerves a favor and never make more than 20g of ap(or LESS) and try to learn a little more about primaries and find out why their never made in large batches before you go making large batches. As for nitro, like I said, 50ml should be enough(breeching doors, cracking engine blocks, removing bolders and various other obstructions, and making craters and deafining your neighbors, 50ml should do the job.).

Myrol
February 23rd, 2004, 10:02 AM
AP is a normal Explosive for me! I made several times more than 400g AP without problems like you :cool: ! A 300g Charge carefully pressed AP creates in Sand a Crater 1,70m wide and 70cm deep! This was a test from last year in Summer! My NG-plans are now smashed down :rolleyes: , because NG is too expensive and unnecessesary for me! Yes it has a unbelieveble Power but AP is quite enough for me! I made a Test with watered down AP to a thick slurry (NOT a thin paste). This was ignited by fuse and maked a weak crack and detonated not fully!!!!!! Half of the 30mm Testtube was untouched by the Blast and layed in front of the "Crater" (2cm deep and some wider as the Tube!). Shit, now im sticking to poor AP.......Mist!

kingspaz
February 23rd, 2004, 02:37 PM
Myrol, its people like you who give our persuit a bad reputation when 400g of AP blows up in your face. its a primary explosive, hence the less you have of it the safer. just because you haven't had problems doesn't mean you won't. if you have a problem with 1g then its you'll live, a problem with 400g and you die. learn from other peoples mistakes. read the accident thread and learn.

atlas#11
February 23rd, 2004, 05:41 PM
one 1gram blasting cap can blow your fingers off and mangle your face beyond recognition, what do you think 400g will do? If you do get in an accident you will die if you are in the same room, your house(if still intact) will have suffered tremendous structural dammage and have to be demolished, the pigs would lable you as a terrorist(if you live, doubtful)as you have large ammounts of improvised explosives and your neighbors would probably sue as their houses would have been dammaged and their hearing loss and heart attack problems would make them forget about everything nice you had ever done for them.

Now, lets get back on topic.

This is the full procedure I used. First i mixed the H2SO4 60ml and NH4NO3 14g. Then chilled the mix to 5C. After they were cooled I added the glycerin 10ml, slowly about a ml every 5-10 min with a burret. After it was added I stired carefully with a glass stiring rod for about 5 minutes and dumped it into bouble it's volume of crushed ice and water and waited for one day after nothing precipitated I took al93535's advice and filtered it with no luck. Finaly I just threw it out and decided to try agian later, which I have yet to do. I can't even speculate as to what whent wrong.

Boomer
February 24th, 2004, 04:39 AM
Atlas, you used too little nitrate! You got no yield because you had only 11g of nitric acid for 110g of sulphuric (1g AN equals 0.79g NA). This mix will not form NG but dissolve and decompose the (probably) forming mono-nitrate, which stays dissolved also in water.
To fully nitrate 10ml glycerine you theoretically need (10ml x 1.26g/ml x (63g/mol / 92g/mol) x 3) = 26g NA. The process needs at least 10% NA in the WASTE acids to prevent the backwards reaction, therefore you take 130% the theoretical amount of NA, being 34g (= 43g AN).

Myrol, you used too much nitrate! And use AN for KNO3, the mix stays liquid. Just yesterday I repeated my standard method: 75ml SA + 50g AN + 12ml glycerine (scaled up 1:3). With pre-chilled SA/nitrate mix (–25C) you don’t even need an ice bath. Yield was 51ml as usual, this is 73% of theory! Why is everybody ranting about bad yields, with destilled nitric you only get a quarter more NG for a lot more work and fucking fumes!

EDIT: Myrol (below): I said 'scaled up 1:3', meaning 225ml SA + 150g AN + 36ml glycerine. Maybe it was unclear, I quoted that ratio as it is easy to remember. And why 319% yield (resp. 319/3 = 106% if scaled up)?
Ideal yield is (36ml x 1.26g/ml x (227g/mol / 92 g/mol)) = 112g or 70ml!
51ml is therefore 73% of theory, compared to a little over 90% via the destilled acid method. (1 min. later second edit: typo in numbers)

Myrol
February 24th, 2004, 09:12 AM
Huh, what? Wait a minute....You took 50g AN and 75ml Sulfuric, thats clear and no problem :) ! But you said you have a yield of 51ml NG????? Out of 12ml Glycerine :confused: :confused: :confused: ! Thats a Yield of 319%...when im right? Everybody says here that Ammoniumnitrate dissolves complete in Sulfuric Acid....I tried it never because my AN is to wet for making NG! My Potassiumnitrate makes a very shitty mud when it was mixed with Sulfuric for Distillation! For Nitration its a thick slime and not really handy to wash it out of the Flask! To the 400g AP.......YOU know it was crazy, I know it also and i scrapes everytime on my Mind :rolleyes: when im handling with such Amounts! My Mind stays durable on the Neighbours and on the Charge when im packing it, no "mitleid" with me! Dont think on me......its not painful, a short smash and im away, very poor but thats the fact when you're handling so much AP! Somebody here writes also under his reply: "Death stalks silently".....thats in fact true! (Dont think i'm "lifetired" i love my Life!!!)

simply RED
February 24th, 2004, 04:16 PM
A 300g Charge carefully pressed AP creates in Sand a Crater 1,70m wide and 70cm deep!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSHHHHH HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTT TTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
300g CTAP makes 10 cm deep (best performance) and 30 cm in diameter in normal soil or sand!
1kilo UN or TNT make 20 cm deep in carbonate or "sand" rock!
5 kilos C-4 (plastit-4) make 0,5 meters deep in hard concrete (maybe more or less strongly depending on the charge geometry).
1,7 m in diamater? 2 kilos UN detonated on the ground only blew off the grass in this diameter!

Do you think no one tried it and your crap will pass?
oh sory... you judge the crater in.............sand????!!!!
do you know how much 70 cm is? only some air bombs make such craters.

Myrol
February 25th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Did you know what the Word "Confinement" is?? CONFINEMENT!!! I Burried the Charge 40cm under the Sand and tamped the Rest with Sand around the Fuse! Maybe, i should do this again make some Fotos and post them here to make you clear that it works!!! Only unburried charges makes Craters like u said!!! Othwerwise it was senseless to make Explosives, because such a small performance with so much Explosive.......Too much work for to little results, ehh?

al93535
February 26th, 2004, 06:18 PM
I tried the NG synthesis three times and failed using AN, when the solution hit the water it formed a white foam(guessing it was sulfate from the nitric salt) and tiny amounts of NG appeared on top. So I decided to make my own nitric acid and use that. I did this with great success:
KNO3 and 98% sulfuric reacted for about 14 hours to produce 40 ml 95% fuming yellow nitric acid.
40 ml fuming HNO3 guess 95%
60 ml 98% sulfuric acid
12 ml glycerin
Increase in temp with mixing of acids (20 degrees), and with addition of glycerin (about 5-7 degrees with each 3 ml).
time required to add glycerin 15 minutes.
Stir for 10 minutes, sat for another 5.
dumped into 400 ml distilled cold water, NG immediately collected at bottom.
added to sodium bicarb, and washed. let sit for 24 hours under sodium bicarbonate solution, changing twice. Used an aquarium air pump to bubble the NG in the sodium bicarb solution for 30min, washed with fresh distilled water 3 times with bubbler. (bubbler works VERY well)
Yield 11 ml, most likely 12 ml was nitrated and in the reaction vessel, although 1 ml lost due to difficulty recovering product, sticking to vessel.
Also, using the air to stir turned the NG from creamy white to transparent while still under water.

atlas#11
February 26th, 2004, 10:43 PM
How long did it take to go clear? Thats a prety good idea, did you use the same air bubbler to stir the nitration mix? I have quite a few air pumps and will try that when I finish boiling down my SA tomarrow. I had to rush to town and turn off my hotplate :mad: . I have to save up for a good distilation set up or just improvise one which I don't want to do. I have a distilling flask though so I may just go ahead. Maby I'll make a condenser out of flint glass tubing :rolleyes: , yeah, right, it always finds some reason to crack.

al93535
February 27th, 2004, 01:58 AM
Atlas,

It only took about 20 minutes to go clear. And no during the nitration I used a glass rod, being very careful not to touch the sides. I wasn't sure if the acid would attack the tube. It worked nice though, filled the NG with bubbles and took a small blob to the surface, where it released the trapped air and sank, to repeat it again. I didn't use any special distallation setup for the NA. Had a coffee pot with SA and KNO3, put a small jar inside it on broken glass above the acids. Then I used a piece of regular 3 mil thick plastic sheet (home depot) and put ice on it, just like brainfever. It worked great, no NOX at all, heated at 70-75 Celsius. The plastic sheet held up great, was a bit white when I was done, thats it.

Boomer
February 27th, 2004, 06:09 AM
Al, nice to hear that the foil-over-pot-in-pot destillation works for you! But for an acid/acid synth you got a crappy yield: 12ml glycerine should give 23.3ml NG ideally, 11ml is 47% of theory only! I regularly get over 65% with the AN method, best result was 73% last week.
What temp did you work at? ’20 degrees plus 5-7 degrees rise for every addition’ sounds like you went above 20C (I hope I got this wrong).

The air-bubbler idea is good, I usually add some CaCl2 to dry it and loose some ml, it gets clear in minutes. And the loss is no real loss, as the wet crystals can still be used as a kind of straight dynamite.

atlas#11
February 27th, 2004, 12:48 PM
I wouldn't add the CaCl2 directly to the NG it may make it more sensitive like partialy frozen NG. Of course after bubling to get it clear I would still leave it in a desicator for a few days to make sure it is as dry as possible. Wouldn't want to lose power because it's wet. I will be out of town all of next week so I would like to make some today and get it in a dessicator so when I get back I can start scaring my neighbors again, it's been so long :rolleyes: .

al93535
February 28th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Boomer,

23 ml from 12, really? Well I think I may try it again as soon as my liter of 98% white nitric arrives. I always let the solution mix cool back to about 5-8 degrees before adding anything more. I was just saying what the temerature rise was each time. Why do you get a crappy yield for the acid/acid synth? Both precursers are cheap so I don't mind too much.

Myrol
March 1st, 2004, 11:07 AM
al93535 how are you able to get so much white fuming Nitric??? Sulfuric is easy but fuming Nitric????? Here in crap Germany exist a company called "Omikron", they sell white Nitric for 65 Bucks each 500ml :eek: :eek: I hate this company because you must told them half of your "Lebenslauf" before you can get the Nitric!! Now i have very dry powderized Ammoniumnitrate and can make NG but i'm not sure doing this because i don't want a "non-yield-synthesis" like you with AN! I have also some Pentaerythite but PETN-Synthesis with AN should be wasting chemicals because the Yield climbed seldom over 50%! Thats way to less for the normal 95% result using 65 or 69% Nitric with 96% Sulfuric! I had not that much Money to "play" with my Chem. because time is Money and making explosives needs a lot of time, right?

atlas#11
March 1st, 2004, 11:59 AM
Hey, Germany makes good aluminum powder and glass ware, don't bad mouth them. This is america you can buy anything if you know were to look. I havent ordered any because it is damn expensive and hazard fees can get up their. It would be cheaper in the long run to buy a good vac. distillation setup and make your own. Now back on topic. My parents have banned my production and useage of NG on behalf of it's reputation so I am quite pissed off, needless to say, as soon as I get back from arizona I will make as much as I can :p . BTW, is their any risks involved in letting it sit overnight in the fridge? I know some people do it but I want to be as safe as possible so as to stay alive long enough to use it. And about how viscous is the final product? Ive heard that it is simply viscous but no one has elaborated.

Later.

al93535
March 2nd, 2004, 07:27 AM
Myrol,

I ordered the Nitric acid with no questions and no hassles, the guy is very nice. 1 liter 98% white fuming nitric for $17.50, and $9.50 for shipping. Of course if you buy more then one liter you get a deal. I don't think I should post the source on-line here, but if you are interested please email me. al93535@yahoo.com and I will let you know. The supplier is in Canada, so I believe you can order from him in the U.S. and Canada (don't know about anywhere else, but you can ask him) I recieved my order in two weeks. And Atlas, you sure can get anything in the U.S. as long as you do a little research.
BTW, If you find a company who will only sell to businesses, why not go to the local county records office and open your own business? Get a DBA (doing business as) with your name in the title (like: als chem supply) When you use your name the fee is only 15 bucks or so! (Alot more using any name other then your own) Then have the chemicals shipped to your address with your business name. You don't need to have an excuse then either. If the supplier asks what you need it for, you can say your exceutive needs it, so your ordering it.

Myrol
March 16th, 2004, 08:27 AM
Last Wednesday i tried the method for making NG with AN and Sulfuric Acid and it worked GOOD! I used 50g dry pure Ammoniumnitrate and 78ml 96% Sulfuric Acid (translucent clear), Glycerin was 97%. After washing Neutralization etc. was the final Yield exactly 20ml Nitroglycerine! This week i will try a bigger Batch with around 300g Ammoniumnitrate and 460ml Sulfuric Acid if i have enough time to manage this!

atlas#11
March 16th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Thank god the atlantic ocean is between us :p . I am looking for an otc source of nitrate with a good price on it, so far all I've seen is instant cold packs at 8 USD a pop I will keep looking. I've seen AN at lowes but it had colored coatings and various other small things that would make it behave strangley in nitrations. I wouldn't hesitate if it was for anfo but in a nitration with a some what sensitive secondary I'm skeptical. If nothing else is found I'll go with the instant colds but it will be expensive.

Why was your glycerin only 97%? That is a decient yeild though for AN. It's all about the details, How cold you keep it, how long it reacts etc. I believe in my last dream I was to impatient and dumped it to soon for it to react, I will leave it for several hours next time. Also, just how prone to evaporation is NG? I know it is not much but I was hopeing to make ETN/NG/AL plastiqe but want something that will not dry up for a while(what a bumer that would be :( ).

Sonny Jim
March 16th, 2004, 02:02 PM
Well considering comemrcial NG dynamites have a shelf life in years I dont think you will have a problem. I'm sure I read somewhere that leaving NG in the nitration bath too long will result in it being destroyed.

atlas#11
March 16th, 2004, 03:16 PM
I was just thinking that, But then it is absorbed in to something and coated with wax normaly.

"I'm sure I read somewhere that leaving NG in the nitration bath too long will result in it being destroyed."

I have heard that as well, I dont think two hours will hurt it will it? I'll just keep messing with it, if I find an optimum time I'll let you know, I'm sure some one else has already come up with this but I like to try things my self, makes me feel like I'm actually doing something constructive, untill I start using it that is.

Myrol
March 17th, 2004, 03:28 AM
@atlas: My Glycerin was only 97% because i distillated 250ml 86% in a Vacuumapparatus and got after the "finished" Distillation an small amount of Water! I calculated everything back and got a result for the Glycerin 97% :p My Nitrationtemperature was around 15°C and the swirling/shaking was very good! I shooked the puddle often so that no unreacted layer can stay furthermore! (Oh God my English.....I appologize, today it sounds crazy again :rolleyes: ) Reaction time was complete half an hour! Should be enough for making NG.

Rhadon
March 17th, 2004, 08:26 AM
It really sounds crazy. If you only could use a dictionnary and a spell checker.

(Hint, hint! This is a request!)

Mendeleev
March 18th, 2004, 11:08 PM
Thought I'd share an experience I had today. Not having made nitro in a while, being focused more on picric acid and RDX(in dreams ofcourse), I decided to try a small batch today, about 10 mL. Well, good thing it was a small batch, because despite adding the glycerine dropwise, after several minutes, a red plume erupted and I dumped the whole mess into water, in my hurry breaking my thermometer. Thankfully I only use red alcohol thermometers, precisely for this reason. Last time I tried making nitro I used distilled nitric acid, but this time I decided to try the nitrate salt process to save some time. I was thinking perhaps this caused the runaway nitration. I was using liquid fire drain cleaner, which works fine for picric acid, green light stump remover, and I chilled the nitrating mixture to 5 degrees Celsius before adding the glycerine. The addition was done in an ice bath. However my nitrating solution had large quantities of precipitate in it, I'm thinking potassium bisulfate. Is it normal to have potassium bisulfate undissolved like this in the nitrating mixture, and is it safe? I probably just added the glycerine a little too fast. Also, does anybody know if Wal-Mart or Home Depot or some common store in the United States sells these types of laboratory thermometers, because I had a spare one, but now that my main one is broken, I need to purchase several others in case my spare breaks. I ordered the last two online, but I don't feel like ordering anything online right now. The thermometers Wal-Mart sells suck by the way, they are weird shaped and go from about 100 C to 400 C, nothing under 100 and the metal digital ones get corroded by acid.

Myrol
March 19th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Oh Mendeleev i can feel with you because in my k3wl-ish time i had also problems to get "high-grade" laboratory Glassware.......but since around one and a half Year (after my practice on a University) i had Acces to the HUUUGE Arsenal of Glassware trough a very nice Proffessor who managed it for me :D Now i had the Choice to choose 20 best Thermometers out of around 4000 and can lend them for around six months ;) Back to topic: Yes PN dissolves not very good in Sulfuric Acid, thats the reason why i changed to AN! Preventing a runawayreaction is then much more easy like with Potasiumnitrate-Sulfuric"sirup"....Good Luck with your next Batch ;)

Spacemonkey
March 22nd, 2004, 11:18 AM
I have recently been making nitroglycerin using the AN/acid method. I use liquid fire brand drain opener straight out the bottle and it works great. Typically I get 1mL nitro for every 1mL of glycerine. This isn't a great yield but, considering the ease of manufacture and availablility of the precursors...
Anyway, the largest batch I've made so far was 100mL which I detonated with a 1.5 gram acetone peroxide cap. It seems to have great brisance and power however, I can't really tell whether it is dinitro or trinitroglycerine. I lack presice enough equipment to measure specific gravity and I don't really want to freeze it (to find freezing point) so my question is-- any ideas on finding out what I've been producing? If anyone knows the exact concentration of liquid fire brand drain opener for sure, that might be a good indicator.

PS- medeleev, I use the aquarium thermometers from walmart and they work great. The temperature range is perfect for nitroglycerine manufacture

Boomer
March 22nd, 2004, 12:02 PM
If it is an oily liquid that does not dissolve in water in noticable amounts it is (mostly) tri. The mono- and di-nitrate are soluble both in the acid and in water. In fact they have to be extracted with a solvent from the acids for good yields. They are also soluble in the tri-nitrate, but each washing removes some of the lower forms.

To test your nitro, put 1ml into 100ml cool water. It should settle again after long shaking without being much less (The pure trinitrate dissolves in 800 parts water at 20C).

IIRC the di-form even forms crystals with water in the structure like some salts. This is recommended to separate mono- and di-NG, it is safe (not like partially freezing normal NG). :eek:

nuclearattack
March 22nd, 2004, 06:37 PM
To Spacemonkey:

Did you detonate 100 ml of nitroglycerine all in once? I think you should have a lot of open space to test a big charge like this! I have a lot of problems to test big charges without being noticed from someone too much curious!
Have you tested it alone or you made some kind of dynamite with it?

Spacemonkey
March 23rd, 2004, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the info Boomer! It is most likely trinitroglycerine then because I wash it several times in water before I but it in a bicarbonate solution. BTW it was your method that I used to make it and it works great. I started with a 10 mL batch and now I am producing 100mL+ batches (I have much personal experience with other explosives; I used to do it for a living so don't be alarmed) :D

I read in the Urbanski books that warming the nitroglycerine to around 100-110 degrees F reduces viscosity and "greatly" increases washing efficiency. After washing my nitro in warm bicarb solution for just a few hours it is neutral.

To Nuclearattack:
Yes, I blew it all at once and yes, I did have a large area- it decimated a large (about 1 meter by 1 meter) stump that washed up on the beach.

Mendeleev
March 23rd, 2004, 08:06 PM
Well, I tried another 10 mL batch today and this time it was fine, I just added the glycerine much more slowly, and had much more ice. However I was pretty tired of the potassium nitrate/sulfuric acid nitrating jelly by the end, and I am going to switch to AN as Myrol recommended. Just how well does ammonium nitrate dissolve in sulfuric acid?

Myrol
March 24th, 2004, 08:21 AM
After some time, AN dissolves to 100% in Sulfuric Acid if you have pure Chemicals! My AN is quite good and my Sulfuric has a Industrial grade of 96%! Its a "white" oily liquid (yes i know, everybody should know it....) and smells a little like SO2 but thats no real problem! The largest Batch NG i've ever setted off were 70ml in an Pharmacybottle! The Stuff was milky because i had not enough time to dry it perfectly, but the Sound........OHHHH God pretty loud...

nuclearattack
March 24th, 2004, 11:25 AM
To Mendeleev:

AN is very dense so it takes a lot to dissolve (but it is better than KNO3!), this is better for the temperature control because it dissolves slowly and the temperature doesn't rise very fast. However i prefer to dissolve the AN in water and wait for complete evaporation, the AN crystallizes with a lower density and it will take a shorter time to dissolve (but now you should add it to H2SO4 slowly!). Another method is to add 6% of water (by the weight) to the AN, then let it dry in an oven at about 70 degrees celsius for 1 hour. This is the same method to active AN to use in ANFO mixtures.
However i prefer to use AN instead KNO3 because it dissolves better.

Good nitration Mendeleev!

freaky_frank
March 24th, 2004, 06:05 PM
I've normally made my NG with HNO3 65% and worked fine, but never worked for me with solid nitrates, like KNO3 and such...I still have 3kg NaNO3 lying at home, and once tried to dissolve it in H2SO4 but didn't do fuck, almost nothing dissolved, it was a fine powder...but still....didn't do much....
Any tips on dissolving this stuff....

Mendeleev
March 24th, 2004, 09:21 PM
After neutralizing overnight, I tested the batch today, put a little bit onto a metal spoon, not even a drop, just a very thin film over an area of about two square millimeters, and put the spoon over a propane burner. Some of it just started to fizz and smoke, and then a very loud pop that made the spoon fly off of my hand and my right ear ring for a few seconds. And a drop is only about 1/15 of an mL. As far as the dissolving goes, mine sort of dissolved, although it was a thick jelly. I guess its just the alkali nitrates. My parents are going out of town for 6 days starting Friday so I am going to stock up on everything, including the 18 kg bag of ammonium nitrate, 35% hydrogen peroxide, formaldehyde, pararformalde, ammonia, hexamine, and sulfuric acid. I should have some fun then. One thing about my nitro is that it's brown, a little unsettling, but probably just the dye from the drain cleaner, have you encoutered this in using liquid fire, Spacemonkey?

=|ToP_HaT|=
March 24th, 2004, 11:09 PM
This is the shit they use in those racing cars...Like in the movie "The Fast and the Furious"...Not worth hooking up to any old car. It would probably blow after a couple of seconds. :D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

seriously, *do not* make posts like this! It contains no useful information and makes no sense. Neither NG or PETN are used in any car, nor ethanol, nor acetone. The closest with is methanol, which was *not* used in The Fast and the Furious.

<small>[ May 29, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

I think that this confused but well meaning person probably is thinking about nitromethane not nitroglycerine. I have a supply of nitromethane in the near 100% form from top fuel dragsters. Nitromethane is *extremely* unsensitive in normal atmospheric conditions, it is useful in high powered combustion engines because it is able to stay in a cool liquid form even after it is injected into the combustion chamber of a piston, but when the heat of the motor running is combined with the pressure of the piston rising the nitro methane creates more explosive power than any other safe fuel for a race car. On the note about "Fast and the Furious" cars, these engines are completely and totally unsuited to run nitro methane, unless you have an extemely modified engine and fuel system specifically designed to run nitro methane im pretty sure that the fuel will puddle inside the combustion chamber and do something called hydraulic-ing the motor. The unuseable uncompressable liquid would very rapidly (were talking about 1 to 3 seconds of cranking the motor over) destroy the engine, the pistons would break/shatter?, connecting rods would bend, in short things would not be good. So, as a lesson to you all PLEEEEASE do not ruin a perfectly good car because you have gotten ahold of some nitromethane from dragracing and decide you want to run it in your car. However, up to 5% nitromethane and mabe 5% alcahol would probably mix nicely with gasoline and give you increased fun. Would wear badly though. Uh oh looks like I have gone on a rant..... might not be too useful, but mabe is interesting... oh yeah, hitting nitromethane with a hammer on a flat surface does nothing, but soaking a rag with it then hitting it with a hammer reduces the rag to tiny shreds.... interesting...

++++++++++

Perhaps someone should break up their HUGE monosentence into actual paragraphs that can be read?

Remember, crappy writing skills is a banning offense too.

NBK

tom haggen
March 25th, 2004, 03:21 AM
Heres a pic of my nitroglycerin. It's about 5ml worth. my nitric acid was a little yellow and I think it affected my nitroglycerin's color.

nuclearattack
March 25th, 2004, 06:00 AM
To Tom Haggen and Mendeleev:
pure nitroglycerin is trasparent like water, if it is yellow or brown maybe it is not well washed and stabilized. I noticed that when i wash well my nitroglycerin it has a colour very similar to the water, but when i wash it fast without take care a lot, it is slightly yellow. Of course you should wash it very well because yellow nitro is sensitive.
However maybe some impurities affected your nitro's colour and it is stabilized even if it is yellow.

Spacemonkey
March 25th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Yes, my nitro is always brownish red when I use the liquid fire. Mine also has small amounts of solids in it from the reaction or impurities. I just let it sit in the sun (after it is neutral of course) to warm it gently then I pour it through a filter. I don't loose very much nitro as long as it's not too viscous.

EDIT: It's the dye in my drain opener that makes it that color- not residual acid. I kinda like it that way though because I can clearly see the nitro in the water.

freaky_frank
March 25th, 2004, 04:31 PM
You can remove the dye with activated charcoal though...

Mendeleev
March 25th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Interesting, I suppose, I would just dissovle the activated charcoal in the acid, stir for a while, and then filter?

kingspaz
March 25th, 2004, 06:39 PM
in that case the charcoal wouldn't be DISSOLVING ;)

tom haggen
March 25th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Mine was yellow cause when I synthesized my nitric acid it came over yellowish green. I tested my nitro with a ph tester and it was neutral so i'm not worried about the color, I know it's safe. It did seem to get a little darker when I let it sit out and air dry, and became increasingly viscous.

Myrol
March 26th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Umm Tom haggen: Your Nitro looks like the Oil what comes off if you're leaving some Oilpaints to long unstirred! Mine is nearly white but i had sometimes also a little yellow discolour! My 19,5ml NG from wednesday x are now extremly dry! I know it was unnecessary but i dryed it 2 weeks in a Airtight Jar over some 96% Sulfuric Acid mixed with anhydrous Sodiumsulfate! I had never such a perfect clear NG, so thats why I am now so happy ;) In one week i have some days Free and enough time to make more NG! The AN/H2SO4 method seems to be useful to make it once again!

Mendeleev
April 22nd, 2004, 12:12 AM
I have been extracting nitro with a syringe thus far, however it is always a messy and uncertain procedure, because the drain cleaner is back and everything becomes black, so it is hard to see the nitro separating. I am going to place an order at www.thesciencefair.com for a 1L separatory funnel for $27.95, among other things, and I was wondering how much this would improve efficiency. Is it a tremendous improvement over syringes?

0EZ0
April 22nd, 2004, 03:52 AM
Wow steady there Myrol. Drying NG over high conc. H2SO4? What would happen if the desiccator container were to be bumped spilling water wet NG into the acid or vice-versa?.....

Reminds me of a story about someone drying AP over conc. Sulfuric acid. They ended up picking bits of glass from the desiccator out of their kitchen's walls.

A better desiccant would be CaCl2. It allows less of a moisture content in air than Sulfuric acid, it is easily dried and re-used with minimal fuss and is found everywhere OTC. Another plus is that it is much much much less reactive than Sulfuric acid:roll.

al93535
April 23rd, 2004, 06:17 AM
I sure love NG! detonated 17 ml mixed with about 40 grams AN. I used a 1.5 gram HMTD detonator. It was a full detonation and cut 1/4 inch steel reinforcing bar. It was quite nice! I just finished a synthesis: 85 ml HNO3 98%, 140 ml H2SO4 98%, and 42 ml glycerin. I am neutralizing it now, looks like a good yield. I can't wait to see what this amount does. I will use 1 gram HMTD and 1 gram RDX for this detonator though, to get full VoD for the NG. I am not sure if I want to use it on an abandoned car, underground or what! I will get some pictures this time and post them here for you guys to take a look at! ;) :D I love my pure clear NG! drool...

atlas#11
May 3rd, 2004, 01:40 PM
Finaly tried another batch with some success, I only used 10ml glycerine but it gave 12ml of nitro so I'm happy. the test went well, except for the failed cap. Stupid estes ignitors! My dad dosen't like the idea of me using nitro so I am only able to make it when he isn't home. It dosen't matter anyways, I just make ETN instead. Good thing he dosen't know a whole lot about chemistry.

Myrol
May 6th, 2004, 03:47 AM
Ok ok, now Im drying my NG over Sodiumhydroxide! I have a 100ml Bottle filled with 75ml NG, she stands in a big Beaker where my 2 Filmcanisters half-filled with NaOH are in. The gentle Beaker was sealed with sticky Plasticfoil so Im sure its tamp! Yes I know it sounds silly but I cant find Calciumchloride in my Town OTC! No Shop sells it!!! This was the reason why I used Sulfuric Acid and now NaOH!

Boomer
May 6th, 2004, 09:46 AM
I would not dry it in a bottle, but in a shallow vessel that gives more surface area, like a pudding dish, or a big yoghurt plastic cup with the rim cut lower. Put this inside a bucket or salad bowl on a support above the bottom, and cover the whole bottom with your drying agent. This is much faster.

Finding CaCl2 is easy! Just don't look in a pharmacy under 'chemicals' but at OBI, BAUHAUS etc. and ask for stuff to 'get my dad's cellar dry'. I have seen it in 1kg packs there cheap. :)

Plus, it is not only much cheaper, but there might be a nasty surprise if your NG or AP gets into conc. sulphuric acid or solid NaOH, best case it gets useless, worst case ... :D

Myrol
May 6th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Oh thats a good Idea! If I can get really so much CaCl2 in Obi it would be never more a problem to dry NG or AP in a fast way! (AP dries not very fast for my taste!). Ok I will see how much the Stuff costs ;)

Mendeleev
May 6th, 2004, 12:53 PM
I can't speak for Europe, but in the USA, my local grocery store sells calcium chloride in 2-3 kg plastic containers for about $6.

al93535
May 8th, 2004, 04:20 AM
I have stored 32 ml of NG in a storage shed for about 2 weeks. The temperature here gets to 100 degrees F during the day. MY question is: will there be any increased sensitivity using the NG to make ammonia dynamite? I will of course wait to handle the stuff until after it has cooled at night to about 70 degrees. It was well washed and neutralized, and still remains clear and colorless as glass. Any tips or information? Thanks.

MrMagnum
May 10th, 2004, 05:53 AM
Yesterday I tried another method: 1 part glycerine (85%) was dissolved in 3,2 parts sulfuric acid (96%). This mixture was cooled down to 15°C. A mixture of 1 part nitric acid (95%+) and 2 parts sulfuric acid (96%) was added. The temperature did not exceed 22°C (otherwise it should kept below 22°C!). This method of nitration needs a few hours. I gave it only 1 hour. The yield was 157%.

pdb
May 10th, 2004, 06:17 AM
MrMagnum: that is the way I usually prepare NG. It takes longer but is safer in my opinion, as you do not have to regulate the glycerin flow while stirring and cooling as it is the case in direct nitration.

Most of NG appears during the first half hour. However, after strong stirring, I usually leave it for 2 hours or so at 10°-15°C before pouring the mix in ice water.

Like some others on this forum, you don't know how to compute yield; I suppose you meant that you got 1.57 times the weight of glycerin; your yield is then of 64%, which is pretty low, even taking into account the bad quality of your glycerin (I usually get over 95%). I would advise you to use pure (>99%) glycerin only, in order to avoid possible runaways and NG that will not store for long.

al93535: very pure NG can be heated over 100°C for hours without showing decomposition. However, its sensibility does increase, as it is the case for all HE explosives. FYI, I kept pure dry NG in a dark closet for five years without any change in the appearance of the product.

al93535
May 10th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Pdb,
The increase in sensitivity only occurs while the explosive is at the elevated temperature correct? After letting it cool it should return to its former sensitivity? Thanks

pdb
May 10th, 2004, 07:19 AM
Pdb,
The increase in sensitivity only occurs while the explosive is at the elevated temperature correct? After letting it cool it should return to its former sensitivity? Thanks

Yes, provided it doesn't show any sign of a decomposition that might have started when it was warmer (greenlish or yellowish colour, matter in suspension, bubbles, smell...).

MrMagnum
May 10th, 2004, 07:43 AM
pdb: you're right concerning my yield calculation and the other stuff. i didn't get pure glycerine. this is why i used the 85%.

now i found a company where i can buy 99% ethyleneglycol. then i can make egdn with the same method.

nuclearattack
May 11th, 2004, 06:19 AM
To Mr Magnum:
why ethyl glycole when you can buy pure glycerin in any pharmacy? NG is more powerfull than EGDN!

About neutralizing NG:

some days ago i had a bad experience with my NG. I made 50 gr NG and after i stabilized it i stored it in a glass jar with a metallic closing. After some days i opened it and i noticed a change in my NG: it was green and it had an acid smell. The metal closing was partially corroded. I get very scared, so i putted NG in distilled water and i added some baking soda. Now it seems to be stable but i don't forget to check it every day to notice some changes.
I read that NG is more sensitive in a low ph environment but also in high ph.
Why someone use to add some baking soda in dynamite mixture to make it more acid free? Baking soda has a high ph so maybe it will sensitize NG.
Talking with a friend of mine about the using of baking soda in dynamite/NG mixtures he discouraged me about this practise.
The question is: what is your opinion about adding some baking soda in NG mixtures?

Myrol
May 11th, 2004, 09:00 AM
Sodiumcarbonate in NG-Dynamites? Its not very important and brings no sense to me! Diphenylamine would stabilize NG much better than a Carbonate and very well washed NG needs NO stabilizer! I had also for some weeks/months ago the same incendiary with unwell washed NG like you with turning it into a green bubbling liquid until I opened the Bottle! (Red NO2 comes off, its good soluble in NG but bad because no one needs NO2 in such a sensitive Explosive like NG :( ) Has anyone a Idea for a REAL strong NG-Dynamite? Probably as same strong as pure NG? I think a mixture with 50% NG and the rest Ammoniumnitrate-Aluminium (GERMAN Ammonal ;) ) could be reasonable strong!

MrMagnum
May 11th, 2004, 09:52 AM
I do not get pure glycerine in my local pharmacies.

EGDN is not less powerful than NG. Some sources tell that it is even slightly more powerful (i.e. meyer/köhler explosives).

Boomer
May 11th, 2004, 11:33 AM
It has indeed more energy, due to the ideal OB of +/-0 (NG -3.5%). But VoD and brisance are slightly lower as the density is only 1.5 g/ml instead of 1.6 for NG.

EGDN gives worse headaches, it is faster absorbed through the skin, and is also more volatile. With NG I never had problems even if heating it to 50C to gel NC or plasticise MHN.

What is the problem with 85% glycerine? Just boil the water out in a pot on the stove.

Myrol, if you want a dynamite stronger than 60% straight dynamite (which is the maximum, as the wood pulp/nitrate will absorb no more), you have to gel the NG with NC. Into this gel you can mix any amount of wood/nitrate, AN/aluminium etc. there are gelatine dynamites from 20 to 80% gelled NG around. At 100% you simply get blasting gelatine (8000m/s + 600ml lead block).

Mendeleev
May 11th, 2004, 06:50 PM
Isn't blasting gelatin insensitive enough to be used straight without any dynamite?

Myrol
May 12th, 2004, 08:44 AM
Ah yes, the thing with Rubberdynamite is known to me but in my country I cant get NC so easy like our US-members ;) who can easily gel NG with DBSP from the local K-mart or Wal-mart (K-mart stopped selling Bullets since the Movie "Bowling for columbine"). I dont want to make NC because it needs too much Acids and the Yield is not very satisfacting! I need around 9grams NC to gelatinize all my NG! 9g NC..thats not less.....it was also the last time I ever made a Nitrated Explosive......I mix my 85g PETN with my 75ml NG and basta. thats more then enough! Has someone a worthful Idea wha to do with 200g HE? A Crater is more than silly.....and a Underwatertest is not necessary because APAN does also excellent work.....hmmm....oh man....first you have a lot of work making this Explosives and now.....Its somewhat to worthful to blow it up :rolleyes:

Boomer
May 12th, 2004, 11:09 AM
Do something creative, something scientific! Like two series of 5 SCs with different liner angles, at two different stand-offs, using 20g for each.

This is more fun than one big crater, and you have a "collection" of steel plates to photograph and share. Use several thin (3-5mm) plates together, this way you get at least some with complete holes. :)

But I would use less NG for the 85g PETN. about 30% gives a good plasticity.

atlas#11
May 12th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Calcium chloride is the most common ice melter used here, and is avalible year round for like 5USD for 25lbs, along with the other familiar chlorides, I can't see why you would have trouble finding it.

H2SO4 Is great for drying things as long as your careful.

AP is not something to be impatient with, slow down man!

al93535
May 17th, 2004, 07:40 AM
I was just reading at a source of unknown realibility about it being dangerous to pour pure NG onto straight AN. I have made Ammonia dynamite before by doing just that. Is it really dangerous? It said to add the NG to acetone first, exactly what would that do to help, besides make the NG a bit more stable? I think this time I will add some sodium bicarbonate to the AN first to make it less acidic though. I store my NG pure, and don't want to dilute it just to mix it and head off to the blasting site. :mad:

pdb
May 17th, 2004, 10:44 AM
al93535, you can certainly pour pure NG onto pure AN, provided you don't use a hard tool to stir the mix... don't see other reason than lower NG sensitivity or better dispersing it through AN to diluting it with acetone first.

Anyway, I don't find much interest in mixing AN & NG, as NG's balance is already positive. You should not expect any enhancement of NG properties from you experiment; actually it will be the opposite as your mix will have a lower density than NG alone.

0EZ0
May 17th, 2004, 10:51 AM
An accident waiting to happen....

It should be rather obvious why Nitroglycerine is first solvated with Acetone before addition to Ammonium Nitrate. Firstly, Nitroglycerine is in the form of an oily liquid more viscious than water. Nitroglycerine dissolves in Acetone to produce a thin liquid that is less sensitive to mechanical stimulation than straight Nitroglycerine. If straight Nitroglycerine is added to the Ammonium Nitrate in the form of a powder or granules, manipulation of the mix produces friction between the particles which can lead to detonation.

Nitroglycerine in plain liquid form is not nearly as sensitive as Nitroglycerine containing solid crystalline particles. Just as semi-frozen Nitroglycerine is much more dangerous than both totally solid or totally liquid Nitroglycerine.

Ammonium Nitrate is produced from Nitric Acid (a strong acid) and Ammonia (a weak base). Strong Acid + Weak Base => Acidic Salt. What exactly do you think would happen if you added Sodium Bicarbonate to "make it less acidic" :rolleyes:.

You are obviously a danger to yourself and others at your current level of understanding and attitude. I am surprised you have made it this far without loss of life and limb! Go and learn some basic chemistry and repent your bad ways. All it would have taken is a little research.

al93535
May 17th, 2004, 12:04 PM
From what I have understood, NG absorbed into AN or diatomaceous earth makes it less sensitive. And according to COPAE it states that adding an anti-acid to the dynamite mix prevents the NG from becoming acidic, about 1%. And that being because the AN is slightly acidic. I don't need to manipulate the mix anyway, I add a layer of AN then a bit of NG, and repeat. How has anyone else that have made ammonia dynamite done this?

0EZ0
May 17th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Yes when Nitroglycerine is in a consistent mix with a finely powdered solid it is said to be less sensitive. However sticks of dynamite that have been left to sit often sweat Nitroglycerine out and thus are prone to higher sensitivity once again.

And according to COPAE it states that adding an anti-acid to the dynamite mix prevents the NG from becoming acidic, about 1%. And that being because the AN is slightly acidic.
You must have taken what you say in COPAE out of context. This will only work when the dynamite is composed of an inert solid and Nitroglycerine. What I could not be bothered spoon feeding you was that if you add Sodium Bicarbonate to dynamites containing a fair ammount of Ammonium Nitrate that you are in no way going to rid all of the acidity unless you add enough to neutralize the entire amount of Ammonium Nitrate.

A simple acid/base reaction producing amounts of NH4HCO3, (NH4)2CO3, NaNO3, NH3, CO2 and H2O. The bi/carbonates of Ammonia are not very stable and sublimate at atmospheric temperature and decompose at slightly elevated temperatures (NH4HCO3 decomp stated at 37 degrees C). So by adding Sodium Bicarbonate you are deafeating the purpose of using Ammonium Nitrate in the first place.

Safety should be paramount. Skipping the step to thin Nitroglycerine with acetone first before addition only increases the risk. You fail to uderstand this and it comes as no surprise. Simply scouting books for bits of information is no good if you don't understand the content in the first place.

nbk2000
May 17th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Context is time-sensitive too.

Is he planning on adding the nitro to the AN on-site and blowing in place? If so, then the acidity is moot.

If he's planning on storing, then he'd have a problem.

al93535
May 17th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Ok, safety is my first priority. NBK: I will be adding the NG to the AN about 20 minutes before it is detonated, so I can skip the sodium bicarb. A 50/50 mix of acetone to NG is still sensitive to a #8 cap, so I think I might as well just dilute the NG first, and be safe. Thank you Oezo for your information, I really do appreciate it, thanks again. Oh also, how do you guys store your NG? I just use an old pill bottle, its quite airtight.

Boomer
May 18th, 2004, 06:35 AM
How do you think extra dynamite is made? They definitely do NOT add acetone and evaporate it later. They simply mix finely ground AN + fuel and then knead the NG in with a mechanical stirrer (much like for making bread industrially). These dynamites are storage stable.

The important thing is that the NG is added to a finely ground mix, NOT to coarse AN prills. It is dropped in and is absorbed by e.g. the wood pulp, then the stuff can be safely manipulated. I would be more scared to transport pure NG to the blasting site than make and handle ammonia dynamite.

BTW if you add a fuel (wood pulp, coal, flour) it not only absorbs the NG, it also adds power. AN + NG have lots of excess O2 which is otherwise wasted. The fuel more than doubles the power that the AN adds to the mix.

OEZO is right, if e.g. Na2CO3 is added to AN, ammonia is given off, because the salts are never absolutely dry. You reach the opposite of stability.
Anti-acid does not mean a base! They use chalk that absorbs NOx / HNO2 only IF it should build. Nitrate ester decomposition is auto-catalytic, if the first traces of NOx are absorbed, it does not accelerate. Amines do the same thing efficiently, even organic matter (wood, flour) can stabilize dynamites by absorbing the first traces of decomposition products (COPAE, K+M, etc).

al93535
May 18th, 2004, 06:54 AM
Boomer, will you email me, so I can talk to you about a few things? Thanks alot
picricsalt@yahoo.com

markgollum
May 30th, 2004, 02:34 AM
I have been having the same problem as a few other people here have had regarding the synthesis of NG via AN/SA. In which the layer at the bottom of the beaker (assumed to be NG) dissolves when crashed into water at the end of the synthesis.
At first I agreed that the cause of this was excess water in the reactants preventing complete trinitration, at least until I started testing them in order to discover how much water they contained.
The glycerin was tested first. It was tested by pouring 40mL into a 50mL beaker then heating it to 174 deg C and holding for 5min then permitting it to cool back to room temperature. The volume was, for practical purposes, unchanged, as the difference was less than I could detect by looking at it.
Then the sulfuric acid (drain opener) was tested, even though it had been concentrated two days before attempting the synth. It was heated to 170deg C with similar results as with the glycerol (there was a change but it was very slight, and considering that it was smoking, expected).
The ammonium nitrate (cold pack) was not tested, but considering that it had been dried in the oven at 120deg C for two and a half hours, the day before, and kept in a reasonably airtight container until about two hours before the synths (I made four attempts) is probably more than sufficiently dry. As far as measurement goes my scale is accurate to about 1/150 of a gram, the syringe is a ½ cc medical syringe, I used a 50mL beaker to measure the sulfuric and do the reaction in.
As for temperature measurement I used laser thermometer accurate to about ½ a deg C.
My ratios were 20mL SA, 12.85g AN and 3mL glycerin.
The addition took a little over 10 min + 15 min wait after addition and the temp was kept between 10 and 20 deg C.

At first I was frustrated that it wouldn’t work but after testing all my reactants I am not that frustrated anymore but VERY curious why did my synth fail to make even a drop of nitro??? :confused: :confused:

Boomer
June 1st, 2004, 04:20 AM
Your ratios are OK, there are four things IMO that could cause the non-yield:

1. Your cold packs contain urea instead of AN.

2. Your reaction time is too short. I got my best yield from this method by letting it sit in the freezer for a whole day after addition.

3. You have still too much water in the mix. IIRC pure glycerine boils somewhere around 270C, at 170C it could well be at 80%. Pure SA boils at >330C. At 170C it could be below 75%. If your thermometer stops at 170C, just BOIL both liquids until the bubble, and wait for the vapour cloud to turn into white mist. You'll see the difference.

4. You dilute with too little water, 200ml will not hurt (dissolves 0.2ml NG).

Then try again, it HAS to work! :)

KuruptA
August 20th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Also, try upping your quantites a bit. I remember when I first made NG I made a similar sized batch to yours, and I did get little oily products throughout the solution, but they failed to condense into 1 blob. Try around 10 mls of G (and increase SA and AN aswell naturally:)), hopefully you'll have better success.

Bugger
August 20th, 2004, 11:55 PM
I do not get pure glycerine in my local pharmacies.

EGDN is not less powerful than NG. Some sources tell that it is even slightly more powerful (i.e. meyer/köhler explosives).

I have obtained glycerine, or glycerol, from a pharmacy in the past. If you like, it can be obtained from the hydrolysis of animal or vegetable fats, which are fatty carboxylic acid triglycerides, with a strong alkali. The carboxylic acids are precipitated as the soapy Na or K salts, while the glycerol remains in concentrated solution.

Bugger.

Bugger
August 20th, 2004, 11:59 PM
From what I have understood, NG absorbed into AN or diatomaceous earth makes it less sensitive. And according to COPAE it states that adding an anti-acid to the dynamite mix prevents the NG from becoming acidic, about 1%. And that being because the AN is slightly acidic. I don't need to manipulate the mix anyway, I add a layer of AN then a bit of NG, and repeat. How has anyone else that have made ammonia dynamite done this?

Many organic nitro-explosives, including nitroglycerine as the active constitutent in dynamite, and also nitrocellulose, deteriorate in storage unless stored at low temperatures, due to auto-oxidation, becoming very dangerous to handle as the result.

Bugger.

Bugger
August 21st, 2004, 06:10 AM
I have stored 32 ml of NG in a storage shed for about 2 weeks. The temperature here gets to 100 degrees F during the day. MY question is: will there be any increased sensitivity using the NG to make ammonia dynamite? I will of course wait to handle the stuff until after it has cooled at night to about 70 degrees. It was well washed and neutralized, and still remains clear and colorless as glass. Any tips or information? Thanks.

See my previous post on this thread, about the danger of storage of nitroglycerine (also known as glyceryl trinitrate). The [expletive deleted] stuff deteriorates in storage except at low temperatures, due to auto-oxidation, becoming very dangerous to handle as the result, certainly if stored at 100ºF (38ºC) at which it would be a quite runny liquid which adds to the hazard. Note that its melting point is only 13.3ºC, which is why it is sold commercially as dynamite, in which it is absorbed by materials like diatomaceous earth or powdered pumice or sawdust, and contained in liquid-proof plastic containers. You should store it in a refrigerator.

Bugger.

al93535
August 21st, 2004, 11:49 PM
Bugger,
I appreciate the advice and your wanting to share knowledge but: 1: You are post whoring, plus using the quote over and over. And 2: After two weeks there would be no deterioration. In fact I have left 3 ml in that shed for a test, going on 4 months now. The outside temp has reached 110 degrees F, and it is still just fine! Also I was asking about increased sensitivity due to elevated temperatures, but handled at normal temp. Which I have found out, there is not any increase.

Bugger
August 22nd, 2004, 01:42 AM
I still would not risk it. You may get away with it for 4 months in summer in inland California, but what about years? Besides, how do you measure its "sensitivity"?

If you have access to infrared and UV/visible scanning spectrophometers, I would suggest that the spectra of two samples of nitroglycerine be examined just after preparation, and after at least a year of refrigeration storage and at least a year of storage in an unlined shed at ambient temperatures and exposed to air. (Being a nitrate ester, it would absorb strongly in the near ultraviolet). Any changes in the spectra would point to deterioration.

Bugger.

Myrol
August 22nd, 2004, 06:34 AM
Cool, back in Business....the Forum is back! to al93535: Yes, storing NG at higher temperatures should be no problem.....only over more than 50°C is a slow but unstoppable decomposition appreciable. Now I know why MY NG is so storage unstable since I live in another flat. It is the very hard Water wich gives a lot of bad impurties into my beautyful NG :( I think I must use now distilled water to wash it neutral.....the shit wich comes off our chalky pipes seems to be the pure crap.....I have now a new liter 99,5% pure Ethylenglycole handy so I will try EGDN soon.....I like it more as NG because its nearly as thin as Water!!! Water has a viscosity of "1"....EGDN one of "4" and Nitroglycerine a viscosity of "29"........the difference between Water and EGDN is unappreciable....so you can wash it much easier without smearing the Oil on the glassdevices as NG. EGDN is also a bit more powerful as NG and it is chemically more stable, so I prefer for now just EGDN. look-->
EGDN vs. NG.....EGDN has an Explosionheat of 7390kj per kg, NG has 6766kj per kg. EGDN detonates ordinary with 7800-8000m/s, NG with 7600m/s (ok this is not that much..) BUT EGDN expands a Watertamped leadblock with 650ccm per 10g, NG does in the same test a 600ccm expansion. Both are very strong Explosives, I prefer EGDN only because its more stable as NG...chemically.....mechanically and against heat!

kingspaz
August 22nd, 2004, 10:52 AM
Bugger, don't multiple post when one post will suffice.

al93535
August 23rd, 2004, 01:41 PM
Who would want to store large amounts of NG for years? If I WAS storing large amounts I would keep it in a controlled climate, probably stored as dynamite. Seeing as I don't have a safe place with air conditioning I use it as I make it.
I don't have access to a spectrophometer, but I am sure you can get those kind of test results on-line from established firms, or the military.
Myrol, where did you get your EG? I was thinking about trying that, either alone, or a mix with NG. Also, do you detonate it as is, or make a mix with it? Just curious.

Myrol
August 23rd, 2004, 06:11 PM
I ordered my Ethylenglycole from www.kremer-pigmente.de it is 99,5% pure and after my liter (8,70€) had arrived I can say he is REALLY pure! No smell, no colour a perfect uniform liquid.....the EG is nearly as same viscos as NG....ok he is somewaht more viscos but not very much....and it wonders me because the EGDN should then be finally as thin as Water....(as I said before!). Tomorrow I will nitrate 32ml EG....he is until tomorrow in the freezer to make the cooling easier. The more parts of the whole setup are pre-chilled the easier is it for the chillingbath to cool the Nitration! I have also ordered 2kilos Urea to make the special WTC-93 nitrate out of it. After I had seen the 100g video on the roguescience server I thought "you must get some Urea(nitrate)"...and now I have some in four bottles. :D (330g UN are prepared today!)....al93635: Yes I know...its better to make a normal NG and fire it on the same day as making perfect NG and storing it for a riskful time......Yes thats true but I have not so much chances to blow something up so I must make the Explosives this day and blow them up the other day......two weeks or a month is often between these two special days! For me, EGDN has just one slight problem! In one liter Water @ 20°C you can dissolve 4ml EGDN :eek: this is a little bad...but I think if you're using not to much water it should be no problem....(I am the sort of guy who uses liters over liters water to wash only 20ml NG......but that was in the beginning with HE, now I use around 1 Liter Water for 50ml NG carbonate wash included!).
--> WTC-93 because the first bombing of the WTC was done with one ton crude Ureanitrate made with piss and Nitric Acid. It was 1993 and the damage was awesome. (Oklahoma city bombing was also done with 1 ton "Explosive".....I have often seen homepages wich said Mr.Veigh had used a mix of Ammonium nitrate and Nitromethane and the other page sais ANFO...tss....the biggest bullshit was the report that he had uses a 4800 pound bomb made of pure ANNM!! If he had done really....the Murrah-building would be never ok). Why are so less (no one) underwatermovies on the roguescience server???

ShockWave
August 24th, 2004, 10:07 AM
I have made a nice underwater detonation last week, but i have no webspace, can i upload it somewhere ?

freaky_frank
August 24th, 2004, 02:04 PM
I've got webspace...pm me about mailing it and stuff

Myrol
August 24th, 2004, 02:23 PM
ShockWave, wich explosive did you use for this test (and how much how deep?) Perhaps I will try some EGDN uw this weekend but I think EGDN is also very nice for landdetonations. After I made some tests also with strong Explosives under water I felt the difference very much between APAN and PETN! Today I made a nice batch EGDN.....77,3g HNO3-equivalent in a AN-H2SO4 mixture and I got a Yield of 72,9g EGDN!!! Thats even better as with NG!!!! Ordinary I got yields between 60-72% when I make NG, but this time with the EGDN I have with the first try a Yield of 78%!! EGDN sounds promising, there are just two unpleasant things wich are disturbing me! 1. EGDN is 4 times better in wAter soluble as NG so it could be that I lost 2-3 extra ml due to the washing and 2. EGDN SMELLS pervert like sweet Alcohol! I have even now a small headache because my nose was probably somewhat to close to the beaker :p Due to the higher stability, EGDN is also more stable whilst it is in contact with the strong mixed Acids. NG causes there more problems I would say.

ShockWave
August 24th, 2004, 05:20 PM
It is my first detonation in more then 2,5 years, i am not interessted anymore in making HE, to dangerous, But i am busy with some big EBW.
If a big EBW will work for detonating ANNM then i will detonate more ANNM i hate the primary's.

My underwater detonation was about 1,3kg ANNM, detonated with 20gr AP.
In 1,5meters deep water. Almost no sound but a nice waterfountain.

Boomer
August 25th, 2004, 03:04 AM
ShockWave, if you want to save yourself lots of trial + error testing with f***ing photo flash capacitors, read my posts in the EBW threat. Using foil capacitors at 1500 Volts, you get 1500 Amps within 0.6 microseconds. This is 100% reliable if TR5 fuses are used for the bridge wire (robust construction, consistent properties). Electrolytic flash caps are too slow, I got 30% failures even with 20 times the capacity!

What do you mean with big EBWs? In theory, making EBWs is safe in every size, since you don't have to press a primary on top of the base charge. I would still recommend a small cap (0.5-1 g MHN or ETN) and a booster (5-10 g of the same or PETN or RDX). This way, if the bridge wire misfires (seldom), you don’t spill the expensive booster over the place. Just replace the cap instead.
:)

ShockWave
August 25th, 2004, 06:40 AM
Ok thanks for the information, with big i mean about 20caps of 350v in serie and then do some experimenting with some fuses.

What do you think, will it work for ANNM if you make the EBW strong enough ?
I thought that ANNM/AL was almost just a s sensitive as PETN, but i'm not sure.

ShockWave
August 25th, 2004, 01:02 PM
Not really the right section to place the video but since you want to see a underwater detonation: http://apanshock.tripod.com/Videos.htm

Jacob Kell
August 27th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Hello everyone ad sory to open an old topic. I tried before to make NG with H2SO4/KNO3 and didnt work, after I done adding stuff , everything dissolved, there was nothing, no KNO3, no NG, dissolved . Now I would like to try again. But I hate the acid , as i have sensitive lungs and I also live in apartment. Do anyone knows if there is another method , doesnt matter how inefficient, of making NG without acids?

kingspaz
August 27th, 2004, 10:20 PM
You must use acid. If the fumes are killing your lungs then buy a gasmask. Its a stupid idea to do a nitration inside without good airflow through the room or a gasmask.
As for why it didn't work I cannot say since you've given very few details about the experiment!

nuclearattack
August 28th, 2004, 05:56 AM
It's impossible to nitrate NG without acids!
Your problem can be solved easy. I also leave in an apartment and i use to make my nitrations near the window with a fan pointed straight to the batch.
About your nitration you should give more details.

Jacob Kell
August 29th, 2004, 12:33 PM
well, I used brainfevert's method, 140 ml H2SO4, 40 g KNO3, 10 ml glycerin. 1-5 degrees c all the time. After adding all glycerin and stirring for 5 more minutes, I poured cold water and temp rose to 30C. stired more and everything dissolved, even KNO3 but I could'nt see glycerin even during the synth, like it completely dissapeared. maybe it decomposed somehow? or I didn't wait enough for it to settle down. Anyway, nitrocelulose synth went perfectly well. And also, I have military mask, it says it can't protect from ammonia and chlorine, I don't know about nitrous oxides.

JimmyJones
August 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM
To make NG you need to use acids or else it will not work. Also could you please give us a more detailed info. on the method which you used so that we may help you figure out why it didn't work.

nuclearattack
August 31st, 2004, 12:15 PM
To jacob:
i think you have to stir more.Usually i stir it for 30 minutes but if you read others posts you will notice that others members let it reacts for some hours in the fridge.
After the nitration you should see some spots in the solution like the oil on water (this is nitro!) but even if you don't see it you should poor the whole batch in water. The acids will remain in solution with water but the nitro will set on the bottom because it's immiscible with water. Extract the nitro with a siringe and wash it again with sodium bicarbonate. You can find the procedure very easy in a lot of membre's sites and also in roguesci. I usually follow alengosvig's procedure, he is a member of roguesci and you will find it easy.

trinitride3
September 2nd, 2004, 04:22 PM
Recently I have been experimenting with NG for the first time. It is my first experience with a true HE. I was wondering if someone could give me an idea how powerful the substance should be if I made it and detonated it correctly. So far I have attempted three tests with the substance. In each experiment I used a glass test tube filled to the top with 15 ml of NG and an M-80 sized salute for a detonator which I taped to middle of the tube. I made the detonator with a mixture of potassium chlorate & 600 mesh dark aluminum. In my first test I placed the test tube on the center of a wheel from an old wheel barrel. the rim was about 8" tall and made of steel that was about 1/16 inch thick. The explosion blew a hole about 2.5" wide right through the middle of the rim. I was very impressed by the result! I was a little bit disappointed by the next two tests. In the second test I placed the test tube on the center of 1/8 inch thick piece of steel. In this case the explosion made a dent in the metal the size of a softball which was about 1" deep. I thought the NG would have ripped at least a small hole through this thickness of steel. In the third and final test I taped the test tube to the base of a small live tree which was about 3" wide. The damage to the tree from the explosion seemed to me minimal. The bark was completely blown off in a 5" circle and also pealed back from the trunk a few inches but the trunk of the tree was mostly un harmed. I thought the explosion would have cut the tree in half.
Do these results seem to be about right for the 15 ml of explosive I used in the experiments? Does any one know of a simple test I can attempt with the NG I made to see if its up to par? I Thanks a ton for the help! -Rob

al93535
September 9th, 2004, 06:39 PM
You need a detonator with a primary explosive in it, not flash powder. Primary explosives detonate with a lot more force, and higher VOD then flash. Which will initate a high order Det of the NG, where the salute initiated a low order det. Your salute won't det much else then NG and dynamite however, and poorly at that. And just make sure to do several washings with distilled water to insure you have the trinitrate.

nuclearattack
September 10th, 2004, 08:14 AM
Yesterday, while i was working, i thought about the NG reaction time (i always think about HEs, i think i'm possessed by Sobrero spirit!), more precisely i was thinking about the post of Jacob Kell and all related posts about the poor yeld of NG.
In my experience i had only 50% yeld but if i let it reacts for some hours (like Boomer) i can obtain some more yeld but not so much.
What's wrong? I thought about my chemicals...i always use AN (dry in an oven for 2 hours), pure glycerol and H2SO4 from drain opener.
The drain opener is not pure H2SO4, it contains a "corrosion inhibitor", i don't know what kind of chemical it is but i think that it is able to slow the reaction.
I made a test: i putted some drops of drain opener on a old t-shirt and on another part of the t-shirt i putted some drops of pure H2SO4 from boiled car battery refills.
The drain opener needs more time to make a hole in the t-shirt and only after one day all the drops made holes through it.
The pure SA made immediatly holes.
The question is: how much the "corrosion inhibitor" slow down the reaction time?
There is also another thing to keep in mind: if you use drain opener you need to increase a bit the H2SO4 quantity because you are not using pure H2SO4.
If you use the exact quantity of H2SO4 (like with pure H2SO4) you will loose some yeld because of the "corrosion inhibitor" in the drain opener.
Maybe this is the problem in some nitration.
I don't know if my "corrosion inhibitor" theory is right but in any case most of us has no chance because drain opener is the best source for concentrated H2SO4.

Myrol
September 11th, 2004, 06:31 AM
To Nuclearattack: The Problem with the Drain opener seems to be a hard nut! Theres nearly no chance to get pure Sulphuric Acid without Vacuum distillation :( the impurties in the drain opener are probably not that big problem with your Nitration, if you make your NG really over hours like you said then I think THATS the Problem ;) I never make NG furthermore since I have 2Liters pure Ethylenglycole but for you its important to solve the problem. I made my NG always this way: I cast my prepared AN-H2SO4 solution in a three-necked roundbottomed Flask and add the Glycerole slowly under swirling so that the temperature does not rise over 20°C. After all Glycerine is added I let it sit for further 5min. and then I put all in the doubled amount of Icecold water. The Yield calculated from the used Nitric Acid is often around 70%. I have done this with EGDN and the Yields are pretty higher! My last Nitration gave me 82%!!! This is very good and also a reason to make EGDN. My last NG wich I detonated was mixed with some Nitrocelluse and 20% Aluminiumpowder. It was a thick oily Gel dark grey in colour and it made a very sharp sound and a strong shockwave. I will test that also with my EGDN but I can be sure, the shock was much more violent as with ordinary NG! It was detonated in Mud and in one Frame (from the Vid) is also a nice orange Flame visible!

nuclearattack
September 11th, 2004, 04:31 PM
To Myrol:
i don't consider it a very big problem i'm satisfied also with only 60% yeld.
About EGDN i read in COPAE, and also in other books, that is a bit less powerfull than NG because it has a lower vod and a lower density, in any case it should be a good HE. I bought 1l of car antifreeze made with ethyl glycole, it should be pure because on the label is written to dilute it with water, the only impurity is the blu color they add to make it more visible.
Do you think it will affect the reaction a lot?
It shouldn't because in some HE manuals is written to use the antifreeze to make EGDN.
I'm planning to make some EGDN, and i bought also some corn starch to make nitrostarch...i want to make an alternative blasting gelatine cheaper than the classic NG/NC.

Boomer
September 13th, 2004, 05:57 AM
NS does not give a good gel like NC. Instead, you get an undetonatable horny substance. This info is from either Kast or K+M IIRC.

You can use NS to thicken NG up to a consistency that allowes to kneed it together with a non-nitro-soluble HE, like RDX or HDN. Just use enough NS to keep the NG from seeping out of the crystals.

If you use too much it will probably not detonate, at least without confinement. I could not set it off even with the equivalent of a #10 cap if there were no crystals in it. Plus, NG + NS is very sticky, up to a point where you have added so much NS that it gets hard and horny.

Myrol
September 13th, 2004, 01:36 PM
To Nuclearattack: Umm EGDN should be really more powerful as NG.....Im very careful with saying such things but I can be really sure because I have a German Ebook on my PC called "Meyer Explosivstoffe" and it says that pure EGDN has a spezific energydensity of 123mt (metertons not metric tons). Ng has one of 116mt and TNT has 89mt.....If you calculate the Numbers where TNT give you 100% performance, NG has 130% and EGDN 138%!! I often often read in literature about explosives that NG has 130% from the performance of TNT so I think we can trust Meyers Book :) Yes, ordinary primed EGDN has a VoD of 7,3km/sec. but STRONG initiated EGDN detonates easy with 7,8-8,2km/s. Its in the German Urbanski Volume 2. Theres also a thing wich I couldnt understand......frozen NG initiated by 10g also frozen NG detonates in a 28mm thick Glasstube with 9150m/s!!!!!! I find that awesome amazing. If somebody dont trust me......I attached the Picture with the Table and you can look what I mean ;) Sorry but it's in German. Shit, the Picture is too big :mad: I cant post it with readable numbers!

Boomer
September 14th, 2004, 03:53 AM
I've got a copy of that book too (at least I think, it was a copy from university library - and I forgot to copy the title, which is not on the pages).

What they call metre-tons (or 1000 * kg*m) is the specific heat times the gas volume per kilo of explosive. This times 9.81 gives the specific energy in KJ/kg (or MJ/kg for the metre -tons). This is the (theoretical) expansion work the material is capable of, and about one quarter of the explosion heat. The values I have from another book are: NG = 6.22 / 1.31 MJ/kg, EGDN = 6.59 / 1.37 MJ/kg, quite similar.

What we must not forget here is that it is the energy per kilo, not per volume. You have to multiply with the density to get the energy density of the explosive. BTW if you multiply this with the VoD, the result is in MW/scm (megawatts per square centimetre). This is the power density during detonation, which Kast used as a measure of brisance. The brisance values you find in older books usually give this value ( ‘Brisanz nach Kast’ in German books).

The newer theories take the detonation pressure as a measure of brisance, calculated from density and velocity, while in contrast the gurney value is calculated from the heat of explosion. The argument here is that the shattering power is only dependant on the kinetic energy of the molecules hitting e.g. the grenade walls, while the fragments of the grenade are then accelerated by the expanding gasses. The gas volume is taken out of the equation, because less gas is heated up more.

Just thought some like to know the relations, and what "Kast's brisance" means.

nuclearattack
October 2nd, 2004, 03:00 PM
Last week i nitrated 80 gr glycerol and today my NG was perfectly dried, the final yeld was 75 gr! A very good yeld for me! It's about 93,75% of the glycerol. To reach this good yeld i stirred for 30 minutes the solution while it was in the ice bath, then i let it reach the room temperature for 10 minutes without the ice bath and finaly i stirred the solution for others 30 minutes.
After the nitration i poured the solution in 2 liters of water and added some sodium bicarbonate. To neutralize the solution you need a lot of bicarbonate but to avoid this waste of bicarbonate i extracted the NG and poured it in 200 cl of distilled water then i started to add bicarbonate. Less acid solution...less bicarbonate required!
I added a bit of bicarbonate then i extracted the water (not all the water because i didn't want to extract also some NG) with a syringe then i added other 200 cl of distilled water. After this i stirred the solution and added bicarbonate to stabilize the NG.
You have to repeat this phase until the bicarbonate doesn't react with the solution, when it doesn't react stop the addiction because too much bicarbonate will sensitize the NG.
I prefer to extract the water instead of the NG because with this method you don't lose any NG!
At the end simply extract the NG and let it dry on a plate, the game is done!
That's all! I posted this because i had very good results and it can be usefull to newbies.
Oh! I forgot another thing: i used owen dried AN and 98% SA from drain opener, i have to say that i used a bit more SA than the normal procedure because, as i said in a previous post, the drain opener is not pure SA but it contain an "inhibitor". If it is not pure you need a bit more drain opener to have the same quantity of SA.

lucas
October 6th, 2004, 08:08 AM
I recently tested a method of "cleaning" NG after initial extraction from acids and neutralisation.

The NG obtained from the synthesis was initially milky and had a yellow tinge. Although this with time in a dessicator did fade to olive oil as COPAE suggests.

A small sample of NG, 2 ml was added to a 50ml beaker and diluted with 5ml methylated spirits. Two layers still existed. This was swirled until all colour and cloudiness was removed from the lower NG layer. Both layers were now colourless and clear. 10ml water was added to precipitate the NG from the ethanol and to remove ethanol from the NG. The aqueous layer took on a milky white to offwhite appearance, resembling that of initial colour of the NG, but less intense. The aqueous layer was removed and more water added to the NG. This time the water remained clear and colourless. The NG layer remaining was totally clear and colourless.

The majority of the batch of NG was not treated in this way. It lost it's milkiness after 24 hrs storage in a dessicator.

The approx 60 ml remaining NG was then converted to a dynamite.
Total dope material consisted of 20 grams flour, 1 gram bicarb soda, 14 grams ground charcoal, 115 grams powdered potassium nitrate.

Approx 40% straight nitroglycerine dynamite was obtained with a damp black appearance. The mixture did not exude on sitting, but on pressing did show some tendency to exude.

This mixture could be easily improved had the potassium nitrate been ground finer than it's original powdered form.

10gr detonated by 2.0 grams pressed HMTD produced a very loud echoing report and a white smoke cloud diametre 1.5 metres. No flash was noticed.

++++++++++++++++++

Attached picture deleted for being totally uninformative. NBK

kinetic
October 12th, 2004, 09:29 PM
I know it's a little ADD in here but... I believe this is the best place to bring it up.

From what the Urbanski books and others have told me, blasting gelatin is easy to make, and much safer and more brisant than liquid nitro (in most cases). So why is everyone trying to dilute the power of NG with dynamite?

One possible answer may be that over time, blasting gelatin signifigantly loses brisance and sensitvity due to the tiny microscopic air bubbles in it escaping. So, my question is, would it be possible to add microballons or perhaps even powdered styrofoam to the mix?

I would just try it and find out, but I would have to wait a few months after it was made to test if it had lost sensetivity.

Anthony
October 13th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Dynamite is easier to make than blasting gelatin. You just need NG and an absorbant material! In the case of ammonia dynamite, you can stretch your NG much further.

Also, don't forget that you need gloves to handle blasting gelatin, unless you seal it up in a container.

kinetic
October 13th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Valid points Anthony, but don't you think it would be even easier to make APAN or even MEK/APAN? If I go through the trouble of making NG, I want to use it as a brisant, "cutting" explosive rather than a "blasting" explosive like dynamite or APAN. I'm thinking that blasting gelatin, if it could be made storage stable, could be used in shaped charge warheads or antitank mines.

BTW, I don't have much experience with dynamite...
how does 40 or 50% dynamite compare with APAN? I know it is more powerful, but would it be easier to just make 1/3 more APAN?

FinnBell
October 13th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Youre asking to compare dynamite and APAN, there is no comparison. I guess it would be easier to make APAN, but why would you? It would probably be just as easy to make that much more nitro. Making a bit more nitro isnt that big of deal. Theres no way I would ever use APAN instead of Nitro.

Boomer
October 14th, 2004, 07:03 AM
First of all, you do *not* want to make AP by the pound! A little static electricity (even unconfined!), or a little friction while you mix it with AN .... :p

Second, you either need *much* too much AP, or you use the mix with perfect OB, which has 12% AP and 88% AN. This is much more cap sensitive than ANFO, but hardly stronger or more brisant.

Practically *every* dynamite is stronger and more brisant than APAN. Even 1:2 APAN will have a VoD below 4 km/s. The often quoted figure of 4.5 km/s for straight AP is for highly compressed charges - and who wants to use tons of pressure (hydraulic press / vice) an something with AP? :D

I once measured the VoD of 30% AN dynamite and got around 4900 m/s IIRC. This means you can bulk it up even more, say 100ml nitro concerted into two pounds, and still have a stronger product than APAN, but probably a cheaper and definitely a much safer one.

If you want brisance, without the trouble of aging (lost bubbles), gel the NG and add some (10-15%) powdered AN + solid fuel. You lose very little brisance, but the crystals promote the detonation after the bubbles are gone. Micro balloons or Styrofoam will also decrease power somewhat.

kinetic
October 14th, 2004, 10:40 AM
Thanks Boomer. I knew APAN wasn't very powerful from my dreams but, I had no idea that is was only about as powerful/brisant as ANFO! I'm gonna "dream-up" some of that gel you were talking about and post some results. Thanks again.

Anthony
October 14th, 2004, 03:05 PM
APAN seems to be a very recent invention (I can easily remember when there was no mention of it on this forum, or anywhere else on the net I knew). So before that, dynamite was pretty much the best performing, cheap and easy to make explosive (about on par with ANNM).

If you want a downright sassy explosive, you might like something I once tried: Roughly equal parts of PETN and NG. I had about 10gm of each to get rid of once, and simply mixed them together and blew and crass paddlock off with it.

I can't remember hearing about this mixture anywhere, but it's often stated that mixing glycerine with PETN does good things by upping the charge density. I thought that NITROglycerine would be even better :)

nbk2000
October 14th, 2004, 05:25 PM
APAN does have the advantage of being detonatable by fuse only, whereas NG and dynamite's are not.

hereno
October 15th, 2004, 02:29 AM
if it could be made storage stable, could be used in shaped charge warheads or antitank mines.

Now im assuming this ISNT going to be used in warheads or anti-tank mines, if it were the military doesnt use it for a reason, and it isnt because it loses sensitivity.

Commercial AN gelignite (gelled AN dynamite) had quite a low VOD (2600m/s), any figures I've seen for commercial AN containing dynamite have also been on the low side 60%NG = 5580m/s. Use just enough AN to lower its density through the entrapped air. AN does nothing for power.

You could check the post <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&page=3">here</a> for a measure of MEKP/AN vs a commercial explosive at 4300m/s with an energy figure far superior to ANFO, remarkably 10% MEKP in AN comes out on top, compare that to 10% (or even 30-50%)AN dynamite, I think you will be surprised.

So, its hard to say how well APAN performs if small quantities of a lower powered peroxide (MEKP) can increase the "oompf" of AN very substantially. Its going to come down to liquid vs solid & intimacy of the mix. APAN should be considerably better then ANFO, especially in small quantities where ANFO will be lucky to break 2000m/s.

Oh, and APAN aint new, theres an old patent for it! (Do you have the number. It would be interesting to read. - kingspaz)

lucas
October 15th, 2004, 02:04 PM
FFS,why are organic peroxides being compared to nitroglycerine in the nitroglycerine thread. Organic peoxides perform well for their cost and are easy to manufacture but they dont store, which is totally different to nitroglycerine which performs extremely well, is moderately expensive and stores well. Why would a primary be included in the nitroglycerine thread if not in reference to detonation/initiation? APAN is in a way a nitroglycerine free dynamite, but only if you stretch the definition way too far. Dynamites enjoy high gas production and high energy release with moderate bristancy, sure but why the fuck should APAN be brought up in this thread? Thats not a topic for serious discussion here. Why the fuck are TWO MODS bringing up APAN. The literature mentions how blasting gelatine loses its airation and sensitivity with time and how the colour changes with this, who cares that's hardly new, what is new should be written about not what is old. For god's sake this isn't meant to be a chat engine, thats why I have posted not more than ten posts in my year of membership. My last post was meant to be about a technique I have not read about, that's why I mentioned it, not for points scoring, I am sick of having to read about crap to get to a usefull thread.



PS to mods. Please delete this and the last few posts after readint this to save the integrity of the thread. The only post which resembles usefull on this page (18) is post 432 regarding PETN / NG mixtures.
Disgruntled member out.

kinetic
October 15th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Well Lucas,

If you would read just a couple of posts back, you would find that the topic originally discussed was not really about APAN but about blasting gelatine. The Forum does not revolve around you or what you are particularly interested in. Excuse us if we failed you...

nuclearattack
October 15th, 2004, 07:11 PM
To Lucas:
you should be a little more diplomatic! Who do you think you are to order a moderator to erase posts? Stay on your place this is not your problem.
However, sometimes it's possible that some posts are not perfectly in their own thread because it depends from many factors...Kinetic was only making a comparison between APAN and NG based explosives.

nbk2000
October 15th, 2004, 07:36 PM
If I'm erasing someones posts, I'm erasing the person who posted them as well.

lucas
October 16th, 2004, 03:07 PM
I'm having a bad week in a bad year. Specifically I lost function in part of my hand in a work accident recently, which wasn't my fault. I am angry and frustrated. That doesn't excuse bad mouthing the forum. I do appreciate the forum and respect the people who are responsile for it's existance and maintanance. I do think the forum is stagnating a bit but is still usefull and relevant to the field it pertains to. Hopefully I will make a real contribution soon. I have found a book on chlorine and it's uses. Chapters on chlorate and perchlorate production will shortly be uploaded to the FTP. They mainly detail electrolytic cells. I do wish to return favours to a community that has helped me in my amateur research of explosives.
(hmmm that's not aout nitro)
Less emotional member out.

hereno
October 17th, 2004, 07:38 AM
Oh, and APAN aint new, theres an old patent for it! (Do you have the number. It would be interesting to read. - kingspaz)

I was mistakingly thinking of GB397600 & GB415900, which regards co-precipitation of AN & HMTD. But if you check GB620498, the original trimeric AP patent it has compositions with AN, and comparisons between them.

QUOTE: 1P AP with 3P AN is at least as powerful as TNT
(or words to that effect)

But remember, it is only a patent! I dont expect it to be as "powerful" as TNT, the patent does give comparitive tests though. But I still think it can give lower strength dynamites (<50%NG) a run for their money.

Sarevok
December 9th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Anthony, I doubt APAN is a "very recent invention." Most things today are copies of old things, reinventions of old things or actually new stuff (the latter usually not being worth a shit).

For example, the mixture of PETN and NG you never heard about before: It is a class of swiss explosives, called Penthrinits, and were developed by Dr. A. Stettbacher in 1928. The original mixture is NG 80% and PETN 20%, but there are many others compositions. Some are plastic. Check PATR2700.

Stettbacher also developed similar plastic explosive compositions containing RDX instead of PETN (Hexonites), one of the compositions being RDX 20-50% and NG 80-50%. This mixture of RDX and NG is also mentioned on the kitchen improvised books.

Jacob Kell
December 17th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Hello everyone! A week ago I tried to make nitroglycerin but failed, second time, probably the same problem, but I don't understand it. Here is the procedure I used : 150 ml H2S04, 70 g NH4NO3, 13 ml glycerine, during nitration there were no gases, no big temp changes (around 10 C all the time), then I put it in the fridge (5 degrees) for 2 days, the mixture cleared up but there was nothing, except very very thin layer (almost invisible) of small clear oil bubbles and few undissolved nitrate lumps floating. So I let it stay one day at room temperature (3 days) and nothing else appeared. Then I poured water and nothing settled down. tried to suck «oil» from the surface with syringe but failed and decided it's not worth it. So my question is what happened to 13 ml of glycerine, what could be the problem. The chems were pretty pure, acid was 95% or more, and it was the second fucked up attempt. I didn't stir continously, cause I wasn't sitting there all the time during synth (NOphobia and lack of good mask). If I am right, white blobs should be at the bottom of solution. So where did it go, can it dissolve or what? Is this a usual problem with synth?

The_Rsert
December 18th, 2004, 08:29 AM
A few months ago, I had the same problem with EGDN.
But I used 70% HNO3 instead of the nitrate an less H2SO4.

Jacob Kell
December 18th, 2004, 02:12 PM
I believe that, but I am asking how to get something out of H2SO4/nitrate mix, HN03 is not within my reach.

Joeychemist
December 19th, 2004, 01:58 AM
Jacob

I make my Nitro the same way with NH4NO3 (from coldpacks) and H2S04, (red Drain cleaner or Battery acid boiled down) I also make HNO3 with the same ingredients. You’re saying that HNO3 is out of you're reach? Yeah right! (Look at the HNO3 the easy way thread). As for you’re Nitro, well you’re problem could have been from any amount of reasons but I suspect the acid or glycerin concentration might have something to do with it. Glycerin is sometimes watered down, pure glycerin is thick lick maple syrup.

My advice to you is to first dump the AN/acid/glycerin solution over the neighbor’s fence or something then come back inside and read all eighteen pages of this thread, and then try again. Buy some different acid (try drain cleaner, AKA; drain shot) and experiment until it works. Good luck.

Jacob Kell
December 19th, 2004, 05:35 PM
no, I am very sure rhe ingredients were pure/concentrated. could it be possible that NG decomposed since I waited too long to pour in water?

wymanthescienceman
November 22nd, 2006, 12:08 AM
I wanted to try my first synth of NG for a while now and finally roused up enough courage to try it. But after it was all said and done the NG that came out was an orange/brown color after neutralizing it, and gradually got darker brown as it sat in a sodium bicarbonate solution with a pH of 8.

As I see it now, it is a caramel color. I have no idea why it is brown and not changing to clear, it has been under basic solution for about 8 hours. I used the KNO3/H2SO4 method with 6.5ml of CLEAR 98% ACS H2SO4, 4g 98+% KNO3, and 8 drops of 96% USP Glycerin (I only wanted to see if it would work).

I don't think my chemicals are impure enough to cause that bad of contamination, so WTF is wrong here? I never let the temp get above 15C, although the nitrating mix was VERY thick, like molasses. When I put a drop of the brown stuff on the table and light it it burns (unwillingly) with a white/yellow jet flame like 3 inches high, so it nitrated somewhat, but I still can't figure out what's wrong with it.

I put it under a salt solution for now, I'm just going to leave it there until I figure out what to do. Has anyone else had this problem? What should I do if it is possible to resurrect it?

Red Beret
November 22nd, 2006, 07:43 AM
I think you should dump that mix and try again. Make sure your chemicals are clean and pure. I have had trouble with nitrate/H2SO4 nitrations, and sometimes it was due to excess nitrate.

I think your problem is more due to impurities or, some form of cotamination. I can't give a definite answer but, as I said, try again, maybe use a different type of glycerine.

Make notes on your tests and review them later. Then you can make an accurate comparison on following attempts.

uniqueusername
February 19th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Just thought I would point out that the links are in fact dead. There is one extra g after alen in the first 4. If you remove that they work fine.

Shalashaska
May 8th, 2007, 07:37 PM
Okay, I searched through this whole topic, and couldn't find information for my quick question.
I recently made some NG with the H2SO4/NH4NO3 method using 100mL H2SO4, 40g NH4NO3 and 10mL glycerin. It went pretty well with no runaways or loss of temp control. (Sulfuric was 93% drain opener, and glycerin was 99.5% anhydrous, should the sulfuric be higher or is that good for nitration?)
After all was said and done, I realized my dropper was too big for the test tubes I had, and I could only get NG out of them if it was full. I'd say I had a yield of about 8-9mL NG, but I could only extract about 5-6.

So I tested it first with a lighter and it burned (not flashed) intensely with a greenish, yellowish glow and sounded like a torch lighter (you know, like, whooshhhh). After this, I hammer tested it on my driveway with a very small drop and (to my delightful surprise) it popped pretty loudly.

I'm not well versed with nitrations, as this is my first one, other than nitrostarch, so to your knowledge, is this the real deal, or is it the mono or di nitrate?

Edit: Here's a pic of what was left after tests (AKA playing around with it for 20 minutes)

http://a455.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/22/l_8086b2a9c61754ddf072d9b003d33d5e.jpg

nbk2000
May 8th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Congratulations on taking a picture of a clear fluid against a black background, making it impossible to see any color. :rolleyes:

Shalashaska
May 8th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Actually, the color in the picture is just about exactly the same. It depicts it pretty perfectly. It's a light yellow, like corn syrup. The spent acid is clear like water.

nbk2000
May 9th, 2007, 01:27 AM
When you wish to show the color or clarity of something, a white background is what is used.

Diamonds and pearls aren't judged on black backgrounds.

A new white plastic cutting board is ideal, as it can be used as a diffuser for back-lighting as well.

Also, it looks like there is two layers. Is that the case, or did you just use some dirty test tube with crap on the far side of it for the picture?

Yes, this isn't a professional journal article you're writing, but start with good habits now and you won't regret them later.

Shalashaska
May 9th, 2007, 01:43 AM
When you wish to show the color or clarity of something, a white background is what is used.

My apologies. I probably would have done this to start with, but to get the closeup shot with a white background would mean the flash from the camera turning the whole pic into a white blotch.

And yes, there are two layers, the bottom is the spent acid that got mixed in during decanting (due to the thickness of my dropper not being able to get into the test tube).

Alexires
May 9th, 2007, 06:56 AM
Burned green/yellow? Yellow might be normal, but I'm not too sure about green. Maybe it was a colourant in your drain cleaner, or perhaps it is some other kind of contaminant? Personally, I haven't used NG, so I don't know about what colour it should burn, but if its green, I'm thinking a copper contaminant?

Anyone else have anything to say about that?

Chris The Great
May 9th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Nitroglycerin burns with a clear flame. Any colour is from contaminants, yellow is probably sodium while green... well, I have no idea, but it shouldn't be green.

sirthomasthegreat
May 10th, 2007, 12:10 AM
As I look through a text book I see that yellow green is manganese. Very odd, your color perception might be off. If you have a wee bit more, try taking a pic of the flame so I can tell. Was it more blue greenish, if so it is phosphorous. But since you are probably not using labratory grade materials like me, you may have a mix of a lot of stuff. Do you mind posting the exact things you used? A brand and product would be nice.

Alexires
May 11th, 2007, 07:01 AM
Actually, I would guess its a mix of the two. Sodium and copper from tap water...... You didn't use tap water did you?

Sodium from the salt and green from the chlorine or copper in the pipes.

If you did use tap water, buy some distilled water. Tap water is shit (Parepin *grin*)

Charles Owlen Picket
May 12th, 2007, 12:14 PM
I probably would have done this to start with, but to get the closeup shot with a white background would mean the flash from the camera turning the whole pic into a white blotch.

That will only happen if the background is at close to or at a 90 degree angle to the lens. Tilt it a bit and the bounce of light shouldn't splash white back at you.

But the important thing is you were successful. Notes on temp, times and measurements were hopefully made while you conducted such an experiment. The things you might learn from them can be extremely valuable later on. While Nitrations are sort of the "Big Birtha" of reactions; Esters are subtle in their needs.

And there is a lot to be learned here. There may have been impurities (& means of identifying them). There may be questions of yield, etc. Notes and a notebook will not only help make this a hobby that you continually learn from but can also save time and money (& fingers, etc).

Rbick
October 1st, 2007, 07:16 PM
Sorry to bring back this old thread, but this seemed like the right place to put this. I would like to say that I had a nice success with Nitroglycerine/Ammonium Nitrate dynamite, and I happened to have a video (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=NGDYN2.flv). The mixture was 70% AN, 20% NG, and 10% flour. I also added about 1g of sodium bicarbonate due to obvious saftey concerns.

The Nitroglycerine was made through the nitrating salt method with 120 ml Sulfuric Acid and 70g Ammonium Nitrate. I started with about 30g glycerine and yielded 38g NG, not bad for the nitrating method. The product was well washed with water and sodium bicarbonate.

Using all the NG, I would need a 190g charge using the percentages listed above since 38/190 (100) = 20%. So I mixed approx 133g AN with 19g Flour. The AN was finely powdered in a coffe grinder. I also added the bicarb at this point. I mixed them well using the diaper method. The flour was added to act as a fuel to be oxidized by the NG (which is oxygen positive) and AN on detonation. I then added the NG to the mix and kneeded it carefully, making sure the NG soaked evenly into the mixture.

After letting it soak, the mixture was poured onto a sheet of wax paper. I rolled (very tightly) the mixture into a stick about 8 inches (20 cm) long by 11/2 inches (4.5cm) wide, similar to the way you roll a joint :D. The ends were folded and the wax paper sealed with glue and tape. It looked a lot like a commercial stick of dynamite. When the time was ready for the blasting cap, using a phillips head screw driver, I made a hole at the center of one of the ends just deep enough to fit the cap. The cap was 1g AP and 2g ETN pressed into a 4.5cm long piece of straw. The top of the cap sticking out of the charge was glued in place. The initiator was a fuse about 6 inches (15.5cm) long. Fuse speed was 2.5 sec/inch.

In regards to the density:

You use the formula for volume of a cylinder pi r2 (Height). So it would be 3.14(2.252cm)(8cm) = 243 cm3
Then take the mass in grams divided by the volume = 190g/243cm3 = .78 g/cm3
This is decent density I think, being an AN based charge. I may try for a higher density for future charges.

The charge was taped to a rock to make sure it would sink, and I tied a 50ft piece of string to the charge so that in the event it didn't detonate, I could come back a few hours later and pull it out of the water. Having undetonated NG in a pond isn't a good idea... The end of the string was left on shore. As you can see in the video, it worked quite well. I took cover behind a ditch about 50ft away, and it shook the ground quite a bit.

So in conclusion, NG dynamite is awesome. In an upcoming stump removal project I have (living in the country rocks :cool:), this could be my explosive of choice.

I have other NG videos on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Rbickert) if you're interested.

Charles Owlen Picket
October 2nd, 2007, 10:58 AM
I enjoy the way you filmed that. It seemed like "early morning duck-hunting" scenes from the outdoor channel when you're sick & home from work.... On a serious note I was wondering if you allowed for either settling or dispersal of the NG during construction. I had seen something like this before I found that diatomatius earth allowed the NG to pool after as little as a few days resting in one place.

Did you see any settling of the material after a time or was it too short a time span for that to have occurred?

Rbick
October 2nd, 2007, 12:25 PM
I actually had to store the charge for 3 days before detonating it. It was stored in a sealed bin with a bag of dessicant hanging over it. The AN and Flour absorbed it (the NG) very well and I didn't have any problems with it settling. It actually clumped so much that I got worried about having to kneed it excessively to get it evenly dispersed.

Yeah I'm suprised I actually got the charge to land right in the middle of the shot. I hastily set up the tripod and charge as the mosquitos were swarming me. I now have dozens of insect bites all over my body, but it was worth it. I'm wearing long sleeved everything until it gets cold! On a side note: The ducks arn't flying too well this year, not sure why :D

Flamethrowa
October 6th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you used a 6 inch piece of fuse leading directly into the blasting cap and then lobbed the whole charge through the air? And then ran 50 feet away?

Personally I'd be very uncomfortable holding something of that size not only assembled but lit.

Rbick
October 7th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Ok, so how would you have done it? Next time I'll have my bomb robot plant the charge in the water for me. And not all of us are fortunate enough to be able to afford electronic firing systems, which really isn't the issue here.

The dangers involved in the process of making the explosives (ie NG), the charge, and the blasting cap far exceed the dangers of lighting the fuse and under hand tossing it a few feet, regardless of the saftey precautions taken (of which I am very particular). The ditch 50 feet away was about 5 feet deep and completely shielded me from the blast. I didn't even get to see it :( Can't have fun in this hobby without taking some chances :p

Bert
October 7th, 2007, 02:34 PM
"Place on ground, light fuse, get away"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaLALuzBVjs

Rbick
October 8th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Yeah so I could end up like him :D. He did everything there right, except the whole running away part, and making a fuse longer than 2 cm. Good thing that wasn't 100g NG, he would be short a couple limbs...

mike16
October 12th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Rbick,

The remote electronic ignition system I had, only costed $50.
I've never used fuse before, even though I've done about 25 succesfull detonations with electric match and remote control, but the remote control device that I did have, had a range of 200m, and you also know exactly when the charge will go off, making it easier to record detonations on tape.

Using fuse with HE's is is not good IMO, with fireworks yes, but HE's no.

Btw, "Phone" rings a bell. :).

Cya!

:)

Emil
October 12th, 2007, 02:33 PM
It's crazy, some people are so stupid. I mean who in their right mind makes a charge with a pathetic little fuse like that guy had. Fuse is dirt cheap so I can't understand why anyone would be that stingy with it. I'd rather have 30+ cm of fuse even if it means waiting alot longer. Rather that then be short of a few fingers or even worse.

Mike16: May I ask what you used for your remote electrical detonations?

Rbick
October 13th, 2007, 09:46 AM
Yes, we should pay tribute to Phone, and learn from his silly mistakes. Those being making large charges out of AP and checking a fuse minutes after it had apparently failed.

Truth is, I can't afford a $50 detonator right now, nor the E-matches or the wiring to go with it. I'm a poor college student :p. I trust my visco fuse, and always use more than enough of it to ensure I don't end up like that guy, who was using cannon fuse for some reason... So to one their own I guess. I've been using fuses forever, and the few times they did fail, I didn't touch the charge for at least several hours. Having used many types of initiation systems in my Military Career, I would say its probably about the same margin of error with electronic firing devices (We used ALOT of explosives in my job :D). So I would say that I am quite comfortable using high quality fuse with HEs, but certaintly do not ignore obvious saftey concerns such as length, quality ect. of the fuse used.

Anyway, speaking of nitroglycerine: I have had 20g of NG lying around and need to get rid of it. I'll probably be making some ETN/NG/Al with it, as it has been my point of interest as of late. I'll post the results :cool:

Charles Owlen Picket
October 13th, 2007, 10:35 AM
If one were to be very objective there are as many things that could go wrong with electronic firing systems as could with fuse. It could be argued that fuse can be tested and set at time of experiment and that machine made Visco is reliable enough to be used by professionals at shows and concerts where a Hell of a lot of money is at stake (shell connections).

There is a little known issue with Visco. Some of it is Chinese but some of it is manufactured by Hogden (the same folks that make the reloading supplies). That fuse is as reliable as common M700 or Bickford-type blasting fuse. It's quite thick for green fuse and is heavily coated. Hogden sells it is blister packs of 25ft and larger. Small letters on the package: "Mgf by Hodgen, USA"

I'd say that fuse is reliable....as magnified examination reveals machine marks throughout and a very ample, well defined core of BP, threads are evenly spaced, etc.

stupid939
November 5th, 2007, 04:58 PM
An extremely reliable, cheap wired electronic detonation can be made for extremely cheap (as little as $3).

First, go to a grocery store, drug store, or some other place that develops film, and ask if you can have some of the disposable cameras which have been used. Most of the time, they are of no use to the owners/operators of the store. If you take it apart and create a housing for it, you can add two switches. One is to charge the capacitor, and the other is to dump the cap to a line leading out and through your wire.

Second, go to a discount electronics depot (old electronics) and buy a spool of small gauge wire (I use 500' spools of 22ga.). These will run $1-2 which is much better than any hardware store will charge.

Lastly, you need to make e-matches. You can follow a tutorial like on Brainfever's site (http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/ematch.html) or Recrystallized Rocketry (http://jamesyawn.com/ignitors/bridgewire/index.html). Brainfever's pictures have recently been taken down, but I'm sure you have seen them before. I like the cat5 wire for the e-matches. Anyways, I use the basic method of dipping: NC/graphite, then NC/BP, and finally a coating of NC to prevent any of the nitrate or sulfur from reacting with any "other chemicals".

This setup has been used by many members, and it works quite well. I have a picture of my setup if you would like to see it, and I housed the electronics inside a cordless phone to keep suspicion to a minimum. I just wrote this up to show you that a reliable wired electronic detonation system can be made for under $5 if you are lucky.

totenkov
November 5th, 2007, 07:24 PM
I use stereo cord which is bound together by plastic, it tough durable and water proof. My detonator is basically a super elaborate switch with an LED to show that its armed and a toggle switch + red push button.

I wouldn't recommend the bridgeless igniters, I have had far to many problems with them. Buy some 38 gauge nichrome wire off ebay and that will last you forever. I find resistance wire igniters are far more reliable. Though there is a bit more fiddling and farting around with them. I have yet to have a problem with them.

my detonator uses a RC car battery (7V@2A) puts out more than enough juice to detonate charges from 150 meters away.

I also noticed you guys are spend $50+ for your electronic system.

1 6V lantern battery
1 length of sterio cord
1 piece of nichrome wire (about 0.01 of a cent)

Total cost about $5

The blasting cap, and the charge thats it. Connect the nichrome, hold the leads to the battery thats it. Super simple, much safer, well worth it.

totenkov
November 5th, 2007, 10:39 PM
Guys I am worried about this new batch of Nitro I just recently made. Its 20mL using 98% nitric acid, and there are a lot of fumes pouring off the beaker, the nitro is completly clear. I did neutealize it and in the past it has released fumes, but not nearly this much, is this going to be a hazard, or usual?

Rbick
November 6th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Nitro should not be fuming in any way. I have had a 15ml bit of nitro storing for quite some time and it is not fuming. Perhaps these are NOx fumes from not washing your NG properly? Either way, there is something wrong with your NG if it is fuming constantly...

If you can, run some tests on it. Specifically check its density. 1ml of Nitro should weigh about 1.6g. Also check flame sensitivity, and maybe even taste ;). My guess would be it isn't washed enough and residual acid is the main culprit. Keep it in a well ventilated place until you figure it out. Breathing that stuff in is not a good thing...

EDIT: And please also add more information on your measurements such as amounts and temperature so we can help you more

Charles Owlen Picket
November 6th, 2007, 09:09 AM
Just my opinion but NG is just as easy and simple but safer than AP once you have the "little tricks" down. The way to store NG is to store it wet under a saturated salt and bi-carb solution. This continues to dry the NG and to neutralize it. After a period of several washes and storage under those conditions your NG will be close to factory fresh & sweet.

There are things that NG will do that AP can never do. What's more you know that the material will be predictable and will truly detonate. Utilizing a "NG detonator" will spoil the AP user to the point of not ever wanting to return to the "mother of Satan". My suggestion is to apply the above wash right away (with great caution but speed)! I totally agree that the material should never "fume"; if indeed, that is what is happening. It is possible that depending upon where you live and the ambient temperature you may be seeing steam reflected in cold air; however if it IS fuming from acids the NG will "turn" pretty quickly. If that's the case (colour changes) use EXTREME caution, dilute or absorb the material and dispose ASAP.

Bert
November 6th, 2007, 09:55 AM
Utilizing a "NG detonator" will spoil the AP user to the point of not ever wanting to return to the "mother of Satan".
Would you explain that a bit more. Are you proposing NG as a primary?

Rbick
November 6th, 2007, 12:46 PM
Not to speak for you Charles but; I assumed he was referring to people who use AP as the main charge, making a large amount of AP (large being anything over 20g as far as I'm concerned) and just cramming a fuse in it. I actually did a search of Youtube (just search AP or acetone peroxide on youtube) and found several videos of idiots making large charges out of just AP. There were even a few videos of people injuring themselves!

So I think I would rather have someone with a large amount of NG than an equal amount of AP, although in an ideal sense, you wouldn't want too much of either :rolleyes:.

But I agree with you, NG is nearly as easy as AP once you get the hang of it, only requiring a little more attention and temperature control. totenkov, I would follow Charles instructions on washing your NG and see what happens. If all else fails, ask questions.

totenkov
November 6th, 2007, 02:17 PM
thanks Rbick. I'm not going to re-wash my NG this time around because I dont want to wait for it to dry again. Instead I am going to use the rest today to avoid any problems with storing it.

Charles Owlen Picket
November 7th, 2007, 03:02 AM
Well, that's pretty much "nail on the head- time", so my only thing here is that the train could be narrowed to almost anything [from flash, to -->NG and then NG-soaked absorbent, bla, bla]....Point being that a wee bit of NG can be initiated by something a simple as flash or even BP and then you have a true detonation to work with.

From a generalist perspective NG would always be a main charge...but Hell, you actually have one of the foremost utilitarian high explosives as being the most simple synth available. ....A material that not only truly detonates but does so at a speed that many materials still cannot compete with... and I'm thinking "a primary is really only the location of the initiator within an explosive train"....why not use NG? EBW caps have shown the concept of "secondaries as primaries".....

rangegal
November 20th, 2007, 08:36 PM
SWIM just finished synthesizing NG with 20ml. glycerin, 150ml. sulfuric acid, and 70g. ammonium nitrate. After reacting at an almost constant 10 degrees Celsius, he let it sit for 15 minutes in its ice bath. When he came back he poured it into an almost equal volume of water. Since on previous nitrations this step created a lot of heat, this time he put some snow in the water. He stirred it and let it sit for about 15 minutes to separate out.

When he returned there was no NG layer floating on the top. The middle of the solution appeared to have a white powder suspended in it, which he assumed to be ammonium sulfate. Under that there's a white layer of what appears to be the same ammonium sulfate, and under that is a layer of pink/brown liquid, which he thinks might be NG. This puzzles SWIM though, as he read that NG will float to the top of the solution.

Heres a lame/blurry picture of the bottom layers.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/2817/dscf3625smallul1.jpg

I hope somebody can tell me whats going on soon... SWIM doesn't want this stuff sitting around to long... Thanks in advance.

Shadowmartyr
November 20th, 2007, 08:51 PM
I hope somebody can tell me whats going on soon... SWIM doesn't want this stuff sitting around to long... Thanks in advance.

Yes depending on the acid used,I'm guessing you used drain cleaner, it will be brown. I've followed several different synths but I usually decant the solution 3-4 times with saturate salt water (make sure all the salt crystals are dissolved in the water), and then let the water evaporate and I can easily suction off the NG from the bottom. This also dehydrates the NG.

The_Duke
November 20th, 2007, 08:52 PM
The bottom layer is the NG. It is on the bottom because it has a higher density than the diluted acid solution.

If you used drain clear as the sulfuric acid source than the color is from the dye, if not, you need to wash that stuff ASAP and neutralize any acid with bicarb solution.

Edit: Looks like Shadowmartyr beat me to the punch, this time...:D

rangegal
November 20th, 2007, 10:08 PM
Thanks for the info. But after attempting to suction off the NG from the bottom, I ran into another problem. The ammonium sulfate floating above and in the NG is coming up with the NG. How can I separate it?

Sorry for all the questions... but your help is greatly appreciated :).

The_Duke
November 20th, 2007, 10:22 PM
Wash the damn stuff with more water.

Your done being spoonfed. Either UTFSE and read some more or stop posting alltogether. All the answers you need can be found in the previous pages of this thread.

totenkov
November 20th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Don't add any water absorbing chemical into the solution, friction can cause the NG to detonate. Wash it with plenty of water and suction it off then put it in a new clean beaker and put it in a shallow container with CaCl2 or other water absorbent chemical.

You will know all the water is gone when the NG goes completely clear. PM if you have anymore questions about this.

Roy Paci
February 10th, 2008, 08:17 PM
NG report

A good friend of mine made NG via the following method.

50 g H2SO4 (density is something around 1.7)
20 g NH4NO3
11 g Glycerol

After a smooth reaction (few ups and downs between 8°C and 16°C) he put the thick white syrup(supposed to be acid and NG) obtained in cool tap water (100ml). Temperature jumped to 18°.
Obtained a beutyful mucoid like yellowish layer on bottom. Looked to be a lot of stuff.
Theoretically should have been circa 25g of NG.
Changed the tap wather by sucking acid away up to the point it became difficult.
Another 200ml of tap water.
The layer seemed a lot of bubbles enclosed togheter.
Added a 50ml 2% NaHCO3 solution. All at once.
FOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHH! Lot of foam. His heart froze for seconds. He searched shelter beside a 2'' wooden column. Nonsense shelter it was. But you know. He was not prepared to that. After 2 secs of crying in panic He decided to check tempereature.
It had not moved of a single °C.
There wasn't anymore NG. Only a foam layer on top. After secs a rain of mucoid drops started falling from the foam layer. It was the "lost" NG floating to the bottom of the flask.
But the NG layer seemed smaller than before.
Another wash trough NaHCO3 solution. Put in sodium chloride 4% overnight.
Measured. 5ml. Assuming density of NG is 1.6 was 8 g.
Put one other day under 2% NaHCO3 to be sure since he have no litmus.
Washed with water. measured. 4ml. Less yellowish, more clear.
Mixed with 10ml of acetone and stored looking forward for detonating it with 3grs AP/ aluminum tubing det.
It was his second attempt to NG, the first made with a bit of criterion.

But still something messed up somewhere. he got 7-8g instead of 25g. Can you see the point where he messed up and compromised the yeld?

One drop of NG burned furiosly when heated with blow torch. No hammer test since no ear protection available. Gloves and goggles on, anyway.

thanks

totenkov
February 10th, 2008, 08:39 PM
You may have lost some in that foam over. NG will not be decomposed by a basic solution, that is the only reason I can think of.

Roy Paci
February 11th, 2008, 04:56 AM
After a while all the foam dissolved condensing progressively into NG drops that floated back to the bottom of the flask. No portion of foam were allowed to go anywhere.

Billy Bones
April 11th, 2008, 12:49 PM
"My I love it when people say this....they are back the next day, ready to argue till the end of time about some retarded point. Calm the hell down and remove yourself from this thread should you feel the need to. Its like you're having your period or something. Fight and flame elsewhere, we can get along fine without you."

No Problem! How can I erase my previous posts?

totenkov
April 11th, 2008, 01:57 PM
Yes I was going to mension that it would be a good idea to add nitrates...perhaps K or Na. Good work. Adding pictures always aids understanding, good work!

Barnacles
April 11th, 2008, 08:07 PM
You may have lost some in that foam over. NG will not be decomposed by a basic solution, that is the only reason I can think of.

Umm isn't the one of the methods of nitroglycerine disposal, boiling in sodium hydroxide? I believe its mentioned on the main page.

totenkov
April 11th, 2008, 08:42 PM
Yes a boiling NaOH solution will get destroy NG. But when would you neutralize fresh NG with a boiling solution of it? I think I was talking about a bi-carb solution of it, not a hydroxide.

Barnacles
April 11th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Ya I know you were talking about bicarbonate, its just you said that it shouldn't be decomposed by a basic solution. I felt I should further elaborate and point out that sodium hydroxide does decompose it from what I remembered anyway. Nothing against you. just felt I should mention it.

Maybe I am messing up my wording here, and confusing basic and alkaline. But I think I am correct am I not?

Charles Owlen Picket
April 12th, 2008, 10:29 AM
Terminology differentiation exists in both completed (resultant) material (i.e. basic lead styphnate) & the composition of products beyond a give level on the ph scale. I'm actually am not aware of specific rules for their implementation in publications. I've not don't any graduate chemistry coursework.