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A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
July 1st, 2002, 05:39 AM
G'day im Dan, anywas i posted this on the xinventions forum, but i got told from flappawok that it would be better to post here, heaps a smart people here. Anyways my post reads like this...

"Well, today lots of problems arose in my mind due to my ap not working
Plz bear with me it might take me a while to explain everything.

I made ap (using 6% h202) 75ml of h202, 50ml acetone and 15ml of hydrochloric acid (something between 30-40%, standard pool acid)

Abiding all safety precautions and everything, keeping in icebath and added acid slowly. Then i left it in the fridge for 3 days to nitrate, then filtered and washed with 600ml of water and with 4-5 tablespoons of bicarb soda in it to nuetrilize.
Then i let this dry for like 5 days. It had a texture that could be explained kinda of like a large white salty potatoe chip (let me xplain ). U could break off a piece, and the rest would stay kinda like one big chip.

I CAREFULLY put this in a plastic containter, and with a wouldnt dowel i proceeded to SLOWLY AND BLOODY CAREFULLY, smeared it around, making the course large thin chunks into a sort of powder, tho i didnt exactly crush it to a powder, more like little balls.

This is where i noticed a problem. The filter paper i kept from filtering had ap on it, so when that was dry i lit it and watched from a distance, i was expecting lots of big flames, but only occasionly i heard like a sucking of oxygen sound, and sometimes a little poof of fire and smoke would arise, but from what ive read all of the ap should of light up straight away. It didnt.
I then proceeded to put a small amount on a piece of wood and put a candle near it so the flames would flicker and stay on it. And i did this like 3 times, and in only 1 of the 3 tries it kinda made a small flame deflagrating s small amount of the ap. It also made that funny little sucking sound of air?

So, then i got a small piece and hit it with a hammer shielding my body and had safety glasses on, the weird thing is that it went bang with a fairly loud report.

So i concluded that it should be used today. Therefore i put the ap into a "yowie power" container (little round container found in a lolly, housing a toy of some kind) and filling the bottom end with tissues , and with a hole in the top for a sparkler. The sparkler was dug right to the bottom, and the hole for the fuse had about a 1mm area around the sparkler so air could get in so the sparkler wouldnt suffocate.

I light it and waited... waited...WAITED!!!!! But nothin. We waited, and leaving it there for about 10 mins, we proceeded to poke it with a stick (dunno why me mate suggested to :p )

Now does anyone know why my batch of ap didn't work??? I havn't an idea, and im very sorry for making it so damn long, but i thought i would include nearly every intricate detail so maybe someone out there could help in pin pointing my critical error, which in turn made my ap crap .

Thank you,
Dan. "

All help would be greatly appreciated.

P.S.: As all of u have probably concluded that yes, i am reasonably new to this (only been researching for like 5 months now), and im sorry if the posts sounds Ke\/\/lish. But plz help me

Thank u,

Dan

Fl4PP4W0k
July 1st, 2002, 05:56 AM
Hey....

I said ask over at E&W.... not to start a new topic in the wrong section..

Would a mod be able to possibly move this over to the Explosive Peroxide section?? And maybe as a _reply_ *looks at Dan* :mad: to one of the many threads on AP Synthesis?

Someone didnt read the rules :rolleyes:

Thanks allot,
rob

DBSP
July 1st, 2002, 05:58 AM
There is no explosive peroxides section anymore, this is the right section at least.

Fl4PP4W0k
July 1st, 2002, 06:02 AM
/me looks at main Forum page

Oh yeah!

When did that happen :o ?

A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
July 1st, 2002, 06:12 AM
Okay people, i am terribly sorry, i forgot that people like me should neva start a new topic, but i read thru the rules again, and it made me realize my mistake even more so then flappa pointed out
:( Stated here in the rules : "We strongly discourage new members from asking questions on their very first post. While this is not forbidden, it will most likely get you banned"

As i said, im very very sorry for breaking this rule, im hoping u guys out there can give me 1 more chance, because it is also stated in the rules that : "The Forum is also devoted to providing a voice and a learning source to amateur experimenters and hobbyists."

As i being a student or amateur, and you guys out there being the teachers, plz give me this chance so i can learn from this mistake, and learn even more in the future.

I will not hold it against u if u ban me *hangs head in shame*

Thank you, Dan

<small>[ July 01, 2002, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie ]</small>

da man
July 1st, 2002, 07:04 AM
hehe, they probably won't ban you already.
Any way, i can't understand why it didn't work, you did the procedure right, and if you got anything it could only really be acetone peroxide. Acetone peroxide however usually precipitates as a sludge in solution, and as an incredibly fine powder when dried. Maybe its possible that you got the dimer of acetone peroxide (not the trimer) which is less powerful, though it should still detonate. Put a small amount of crystalls on the ground, and light a stick, and touch the acetone peroxide with it, it should burn very quickly, or detonate. The sparkler could have just gone out, or not come in contact with the AP for some reason. If it doesn't detonate, i'd just try the whole procedure again.
And what do u mean by "left it in the fridge for 3 days to nitrate". It's obviousely not a nitration!

0EZ0
July 1st, 2002, 07:16 AM
G'day Dan,

How much did you read up on AP before you attempted to make it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Then i left it in the fridge for 3 days to nitrate </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Buddy, this is not Nitration but Catalysation. Acetone is bonded with the Peroxide, using the Mineral Acid (HCl-Hydrochloric Acid or H2SO4-Sulfuric Acid), to form the compound of Acetone Peroxide. Nitration is quite different.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Then i let this dry for like 5 days </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">AP shouldn't take that long to dry. 5 days is a long time, and usually AP starts to Sublimate by then. Use AP as soon after manufacture as possible to avoid complications.
What seems to happen to the AP made from lower concentrations of H2O2, is that the purity of the final product is lower.

As for this batch of AP you made, well my theory would be that it was left to dry long enough for it to start to sublimate, but the impurities did not. Thus after time the product became les and less pure, giving the AP the less than desirble properties.

But that is only my 2 cents, feel free to question it.....

inferno
July 1st, 2002, 08:46 AM
The mistakes 0EZ0 corrected should have been known, oh well.

I havent made AP before but id say whats happened is that the purity is low, and perhaps the sparkler for some reason didnt touch the AP. IIRC correctly Mega's synth states that the dimer version of AP is more sensitive than the trimer.

If the sparkler touched the bottom of the yowie power (hehe i got heaps of them for cat toys, they love them) container, if would have melted a hole in it for sure. If it detonates from a hammer blow its AP. I doubt the sparkler incident is caused by a low-sensitivity batch of AP, but by the sparkler not touching or something. Even if it didn't detonate, the AP would have burnt even without any oxygen, it burns from the 6 O atoms in the molecule.

A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
July 1st, 2002, 09:02 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Buddy, this is not Nitration but Catalysation. Acetone is bonded with the Peroxide, using the Mineral Acid (HCl-Hydrochloric Acid or H2SO4-Sulfuric Acid), to form the compound of Acetone Peroxide. Nitration is quite different.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This is gold!!! This is what im talking about when I say i am the Student and you guys are the teachers, from this i have learnt that:

1. The Catalyst in the experiment is the acid

2. That this experiment uses Catalysation to make the TCAP, not nitration as i orginally believed.

Thanx OEZO :D

Hmmm... the thing is that i put a candle so the flame would like lick against it, and from what I read this should be more than enough to set of both isomers of Acetone Peroxide.

My best bet is also to what EOZO said, that i left mine way too long and it started to subliminate. I didn't use methylated spirits to wash it last, and so i let it way too long i guess.

Well thanx for your help

Dan

Fl4PP4W0k
July 1st, 2002, 09:40 AM
About the sublimation...

I made AP in a pretty similar method, when I had nothing on hand but 6% H2O2.
The only difference, is that I washed with methylated spirits (methanol\ethanol) before leaving it to dry.

I started it drying on a tuesday night, and used it on the saturday. Thats quite a while, and the stuff was still sensitive as hell.
What could have been the difference :confused:

Mine _did_ turn yellow (?) when I added the acid (30% HCl) and the solution returned colorless when I added the Sodium Bicarbonate\water solution. THis would indicate excess acid, yes?

I poured the reacted solution through a large filter paper, using half 1.25L coke bottle as a funnel. Improvised 'glass' ware at its best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
The other half of the bottle acted as a beaker to collect all the liquid. I noticed, as the bicarb solution was added... the liquid in the 'beaker' became colorless again - and as usual the AP fizzed nicely... going a clean bleached white color.

The coke bottle funnel method is decent... as long as u aint using chemicals that dissolve PTE :D
Make sure u wash em out first too eh?

Oh, the reason for using this equip, was that my glassware extends upto about 100ml. Not quite big enuff :(

l8r,
rob

0EZ0
July 1st, 2002, 10:48 AM
Not a problem Dan.

Hope you keep learning and last long enough to enjoy this hobby.

Fl4PP4W0k, I also have little glassware, so i resort to improvisation. My prize piece at the moment is a funnel made out of an old brandy bottle :D . It has no jagged edges whatsoever! Damn handy to have!

With your batch of AP, i guess greater purity would have been achieved from washing with methylated spirits. That would seem the most likely answer, but i may be wrong.

A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
July 1st, 2002, 08:27 PM
Cheers Eozo and Flappa :cool:
Yeh I think also that it didn't work because I didn't wash it with methylated spirits, I just washed it with water/bi carb solution and then left put it on a plastic chinese eatery container and into my garage.
Maybe the dry weather we've been having lately is the problem?? It is Winter.

See ya

Dan

0EZ0
July 1st, 2002, 10:28 PM
Washing AP with Methylated is not always needed. Just as long as the AP is washed with something, like water is fine.

To be safe you should always neutralize the acid with a bi-carb solution.

Most people know this information, but i post it for Dan's benefit.

A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie
July 2nd, 2002, 06:39 AM
Thank you :)

Danx0r

Arkangel
July 2nd, 2002, 06:55 AM
Dan, you were given a lot of slack by having this thread left open. People have been banned for less, so you now owe the forum the respect of actually READING the rules. I'll give you a clue here:

"Do not bother making one line replies such as ‘yes’ or ‘I agree’ or ‘Thanks’ as these replies just waste space"

Don't bother replying to this either, just read the rules properly, take them in and give yourself the chance to stick around.

zaibatsu
July 2nd, 2002, 03:31 PM
Dan, you have repeatedly broken forum rules. The penalty for this is HED, which if you have read the rules you will have realised. Have a nice day, faggot.