CTMTNA

[DBSP]

I know it has been dicussed once before but I don't think anyone actually carried it out then. I found out about this explosive on Mr cools page a while ago, and now I thought I'd try it..

I followed the instructions on
Mr cools page <a href="http://flashbangboom.homestead.com/home_page.html" target="_blank">http://flashbangboom.homestead.com/home_page.html</a> except substituting NaNO2 for KNO2. I heated the KNO3 with lead on a gas burner and then everything went brown. I dissolved everything in water and filtered the solution to remove the PbO. I then boiled the remaining water off and recovered the KNO2.

When I started adding the solution of KNO2 and water a fizzing started and a mist was released, it smelled quite fresh and reminded me of CO2. Is it CO2? Is it supposed to fizz?

I started it about an hour ago and the clock is about 21:00 right now,
I'll have a look at it tomorrow and tell you how the situation has developed.

I allso filtered some hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate that I made in august, and I have some Picric acid drying aswell. If everything works out I'll try a gram of each to compare them with the CTMTNA.

Mr cool have you tried converting the CTMTNA to RDX yet? if so how did it go.

Has anyone else tried it?

[Mr Cool]

I tried the conversion, but I have no idea if it was converted or not, and if it was I have no idea how much was converted. I got about a gram out, after putting about a gram of R-salt in. Both substances detonate and behave quite similarly, so it's very hard to tell! I think other methods for making RDX would be better, such as the route with cyclopentamethylenedinitraminodiamine (?! - formed by the action of H2SO4 on HDN), to avoid nasty nitrosamine impurities...

Yes, it does fizz during the addition of the KNO2/NaNO2. The mist is simply tiny droplets of water formed by the little air bubbles bursting. I haven't made it for a while, and don't plan on making it again, because I'm scared of its carcinogenity.

[mongo blongo]

I had VERY bad yields! Not to mention the HUGE layer of froth on top of the solution which is impossible to get rid of (my HCL has got detergents in it). But it does work, it goes "poof" when I added a drop of H2SO4 to a very small amount of it. But as Mr Cool says, it's very carcinogenic and toxic! It's not worth the risk!

[Madog555]

Mr. Cool im sure you probaly tried this but i thought i might add that RDX burns realy good. does R-Salt? maybe you can tell this way.

[mongo blongo]

IIRC my r-salt just melted when introduced to a flame without burning so it should work.

[DBSP]

I checked it at 3AM no precipate then, how long schuld it react? I just thought I'd try it once I'm not willing to risk my health for an explosive like this. My dad died in cancer and I don't want to join him the nearest future so CTMTNA isn't my explosive.

[mongo blongo]

It should only take about an hour. Maybe your KNO2 still contained some KNO3? I find that I have to re-heat my NaNO2 to make sure that all the NaNO3 has been converted.
Try this, a test to detect Nitrous acid:
Put about 30 ml of distilled acetic acid (white vinegar) in a beaker. Add about 1g of Iron Sulphate and stir to dissolve it.
Add about 0.5g of your KNO2 and if your KNO2 is pure , the solution will turn very dark brown very quickly. It should also give off brown vapors on heating and then the brown colour is discharged.
If this happens slowly or it turns light brown then your KNO2 probably needs to be re-heated with lead.

[nbk2000]

You guys are missing a great opprotunity with CTMTNA.

Don't think of it as an explosive that causes cancer, think of as a carcinogen that happens to explode.

To me, explosives are weapons. Whether or not it's used to kill is irrelevant to the nature of HE. Just as a gun can be used for shooting holes in paper, that's not its original purpose.

So, if you have a powerful explosive that also causes cancer, than you've got a "supersized" bargain of a weapon. :D

Maybe you wouldn't even want to explode, but rather make a solution of it and disperse it as an aerosol mist on the target. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon21.gif" alt="" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[DBSP]

Nice idea about the aerosol. :) I still have no precipte so it didn't work, I'm quite shure the problem is the KNO2 not beeing pure enaugh.
I haven't got any Iron sulphate so I can't test my KNO2, atleast not that way. Next time I oreder some chems I'll try to get some NaNO2 and give this a nother shot but till then I'll stick to the ordinary ones.

If it was KNO3 in the solution could there be some hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate in the solution as well?
Or isn't that possible because the hex. got turned into methylamine hydrchloride.

[VasiaPupkin]

Its true that many nitrosamines (for example nitrosoguanidine or dimethylnitrosamine) has very high cancerogenic activity. I have read that CTMNA is not so cancerogenic, espesially its very easy decomposes into simple products (does not mean that you can eat it).
Cancerogenic activity not much higher than, for example, formaldehyde. Toxity is lower than for RDX.
I heard also about lab method of boiling NaNO3 solution with porous Pb in autoclave. NaNO2 obtained by NaNO3 and Pb treatment is usually has NaNO3 impurity. Be sure this impurity has no influence on CTMNA forming.
Its possible to obtain up to 50% yeild. 95% of CTMNA precipitates in first 10 minutes. It looks like a foam with suspenzed CTMNA. Time more than 20-30 minutes leads to decomposition. Preferable temperature is ~0C and
components concentration must be sufficiently low but not so low for pH~1 support. Also you can use dilute H2SO4 instead of HCl.

NBK2000 - I see you're like fuckin methods of peoples destroying. Cancer bomb - sounds funny but You're can obtain cancer much quickly when trying to make cancerogenic compound and solution.
Much more effective would be to use "dioxines" or some phosporoorganic compounds for this kind of prolonged diversion. Its a not interesting for military operations.
Nitrosamines has low stability for practical using.

[nbk2000]

Even if it's not a "one time tiny exposure equals slow painful death 10 years down the road" toxic, it would still contaminate the target area, requiring expensive cleanup and complicate evidence retrieval and examination.

I'm a firm believer in multiple-effect weaponry. It greatly increases probability of successfully taking out the target. If the CTMTNA explodes, then the target gets fragged. If it's only partially detonated, they'll die either immediately or years on down the line from the massive exposure to the carcinogen. Nothing says you couldn't add asbestos fiber or beryllium dust to add some extra "oomph" to it.

As a matter of fact, one may want to just skip the explosion and just feed it to them. Nitrosoguanidine is easier to prepare (I believe), so use that instead. A little added to the targets salt supply ensures long term exposure, and more rapid onset, than a one-time exposure.

Plus, in california anyways, any injury that results in death a year and a day after the act isn't chargable as murder, only grevious bodily harm. The difference is, instead getting the gas chamber, you get 5 years MAX. It takes years for cancer to show up.

I can't think of a much better revenge than to watch the victim go about their happy little life, building a family and working towards "The American Dream", knowing all the while that their happy little world is going to end in a few short years with crippling debt that'll impoverish their family and a slow, painful, death for them. <img src="http://assaultweb.net/ubb/icons/icon18.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I like destroying things. I hate people and the world, and wish to watch them suffer. What can I say, it's in my nature. FTW! (Fuck The World!)

[EP]

This thread hasn't been up for quite some time, but I have a couple questions about CTMTNA. I'm interested in trying it because of the power and eash of obtaining the materials. Two questions: Mr. Cool's procedure says 15% HCl, so if I have more concentrated I should just use proportionately less? I don't know if this other question can really be answered, but how carcinogenic is it? Are gloves, respirator etc sufficient protection or is it really bad?

If it's too carcinogenic I can just make Hexamethylenetetramine Dinitrate instead...

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: EP ]</small>

[THe_rEaL_dEaL]

Cancer has a negative stigma attatched to it and owed mostly to the sensationalist media

I'm not saying that its like a graze on your knee
but its deffinitely not an instant Death Sentence

These days every chemical and substance is jumping on the carcinogen "band wagon"

In my eyes if you dont breathe it in large ammounts and dont let the water soluable ones stay on your skin for more than like a couple o secs then your ok for most carcinogens. But then again we all breath our most feared chemical (NO2) every day if we live around cars.

Hey I know I'm gonna die some day and when that day comes I dont know? but who cares. I dont think this mindset is negative.
I believe that some person who writes themself off as soon as they are told they have cancer or someone who conceeds to death if they breathe in some asbestos is as good as dead! The power of the mind is immesurable and super powerfull.

Placebo drug testing has proven this fact many times over.

(Shit my spelling needs allot of work :D )

[EP]

Sorry, but happy thoughts alone won't cure cancer. Certainly some things are more carcinogenic than others so maybe CTMTNA isn't as bad as (for example) the most hazardous forms of asbestos that can give you cancer with a few particles, but if a risk can be avoided it should.

[mongo blongo]

Mr deal is right. It IS carcinogenic but it is not as bad as it is hyped up to be. I think smoking is worse than CTMTNA.
Still it IS harmful and with any toxic chemical like this it should be treated with respect and you must avoid any direct contact with it be it on your skin or by inhalation. Play it safe and ware protection! :)
By the way it isn't a very good route to RDX. I tried it and I'm not convinced it converted.
I think Hexamethylenetetramine Dinitrate is also carcinogenic by the way.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[Mic]

I think that carcinogenity (sp?) of explosives does not really matter as long as you take precautions to avoid any sort of contact with it.

I'm planning on doing some CTMTNA this weekend and I will post the result here later..
Bye

[kabooom]

last night I did an experiment to see if HOONO(peroxynitrous acid) can react with HMTA to get RDX. I pourd 175 ml hydrochloric acid (unknown concentration) and 48.5 ml 45% H₂O₂in a beaker put it in a ice bath and let it cool under 5°C. I had measured 39g of NaNO₂ it was in two film can one containig 18 g another 21 g. I slowly added the NaNO₂ it started fizzing, the NaNO₂ had big lumps one fell down and a violent reaction happend I was shocked and in response I spilled most of the (18 g) NaNO₂ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> a very dense brown fume rushed out that made me run a way.
after few minutes I turned back temp was around 40°C. I waited untill the temp decreased to 5°C I then added all the hexamine almost at once (no temperature rise) then I added the rest (most) of the remaining NaNO₂ this time more carefully and with continuous stirring. it wasn't very hard to control the temperature when I added some crashed ice to the solution.
the next morning I decided to filter it there were some precipitates at bottom and some fluffy crystals with bubbles at surface.
now it's drying on a filter paper. and I've washed it a lot. I'll crystalize it by hot aceton and then do some tests to see whether it's RDX or R salt
(I have posted the same post at SM too)

the crystals burn fairly fast. but some of it remained melted on the coin it was on.

I pressed around 1 g in a drink straw and a bit more than 0.5 g HMTD as primary. it didn't detonate. so I guess it's mostly R salt which is rather insensitive some pics:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/1.jpg" target="_blank">1</a> <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/2.jpg" target="_blank">2</a> <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/3.jpg" target="_blank">3</a>

<small>[ February 10, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

We prefer that people edit their existing posts to include new information, rather than making new posts, especially for one sentence!

[Hex]

The "fizz" from this preparation is most probably gaseous formaldehyde. Strangely, there is no record (that I can find anyway)of any attempt to add an ammonium salt to hexamine nitrosation reactions to regenerate hexamine and increase yields as is done in the analagous nitrolysis reactions with AN(My inorganic chemistry is too rusty to decide if ammonium and nitrite ions are incompatible - ammonium nitrite itself has definitely been prepared and was actually found to be more explosive than AN)
Running these reactions at higher pH (3-4) gives 3,7-dinitroso-1,3,5,7-tetraazabicyclo[3.3.1]nonane in up to 76% yield. Strangely (again), this stuff never seems to have been considered as an HMX precursor, despite the fact it can be made without anhydride.

N-Nitroso compounds do make me a bit nervous cancer-wise, but the compounds in question here are probably so water insoluble that the risk is minimal.

[Sonny Jim]

Must you use HCl? It's just I have a lot of H2SO4 around at the moment and am wondering if that will also work.

[KABOOOM [pyrojustforfun]]

experimental:
poured slightly less than 400 ml 7% HCl (or atleast so I thought. I measured the density of the muriatic acid as slightly more than 1.03) in a 600 ml beaker, measured 14 g (0.1 mol) hexamin, 14 g (0.26 mol) NH4Cl and 51.5 g (0.76 mol) NaNO2 and kept all the reagents in freezer for 24 hours after which the HCl was frozen. placed the beaker in an ice bath added all the NH4Cl and with the tip of a glass thermometer rubbed the NH4Cl against the frozen surface of the HCl when the thermometer pentrated through it and the small pieces of ice were stirable, added the hexamine almost at once and stired hardly then gradually added the NaNO2 it was interesting when the NaNO2 lumps sucked the soloution they turned blue it was similar to the color of copper salt hydrates. the solution started to foam up when the nitrite was added I was stiring it all the time and when level of the foam decreased I knew most of the NaNO2 lumps were dissolved and added another portion of NaNO2. after all the nitrite was added for about half an hour occasionally came back and observed an increase in the foam level. red NOx fumes liberated when I stirred the "milkshake". during the synthesis temperature was a few degrees lower than 0°C and reached 0°C at max. I filtered it and washed several times with tap water then a few times with distilled water.
after drying it weighed 8 g I would expect to get 7.2 g with the method of swedish Infomania.
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/tmtn-batch-1.JPG
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/tmtn-batch-2.JPG
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/tmtn-batch-3.JPG
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/pjff/tmtn-wet.JPG

I added the ammonium salt for two reason:
1. when using hexamin alone there's about 0.66 equivalent ammonia per formaldehyde I wanted to test if increasing the concentration of ammonium ions improves the yield.
2. ammonium chloride and many other ammonium salts dissolve very endothermically which helps in chilling the solution.

of course I wasted a lot of NaNO2 and it's not necessary to use that much.I bet I would get almost the same yield using 12 g NaNO2!

next time I'll use conc HCl or hydrated H2SO4 along with an ammonium salt to see If I can further improve the yield.

[meselfs]

I'm sorry for bumping an old thread, but I think this is an interesting compund...


I'm guessing the low yield is thanks to the fact that nitrous acid isn't especially happy about it's existence. This acid surely is formed as an intermediate, it must be the couse of the nitroso-ing.
So, using concentrated HCl should lower your yeild, because the less solution you have the less space the nitrous acid has. Use less concentrated stuff (ie more water overall) and the nitrous acid will stay alive longer, and in the end less will end up puffing into the air as NOx or turning into nitric acid.

[Myrol]

To KABOOM (pyrojustforfun): Your TMTN looks really like pure TMTN. Pure RDX is white like Snow but yours is faint yellow, very characteristik for Nitrosogroups. Well, you all make your own Nitrite via deoxidation. If I melt some Sodium nitrate on a Supremax Testtube and add some small fishsinkers made out of pure Lead....I think it should work also or not? Ok I can buy 1kg pure NaNO2 for 25€ but it is worth the effort? TMTN has a high VoD and is all a round a strong Explosive....but how much TMTN can I get out of 1kg NaNO2? Its very toxic (I dont think its that tremendous Carcinogenic like most people here said, in no source I've read was it mentioned that TMTN is "kafucking carcinogenic") and the Yields are low...TMTN seems to be wasting time :(

[Microtek]

It may not be that great in itself if you have access to the precursors for RDX or similar materials, but did you know that it melts at a sufficiently low temperature ( about 100 C ) that it can be used in melt castable compositions with RDX. Federoff quotes a number of different formulations and one of them, a ca. 50/50 mix of RDX and CTMTNA with a small amount of stabilizers performed better in the plate dent test than cyclotol.

[K9]

I just attempted the synthesis of CTMTNA. Well it's interesting to say the least. I'm still in the middle of letting it settle. After adding the potassium nitrite, the solution turned bluish/yellow and starting frothing over. I poked the froth with a stirring rod and it deflated. I stirred a bit and then what happens? NO2 starts pouring out. Well right now it is sitting outside until it stops fizzing. I'll edit with an update.

EDIT: Right now I have a yellow solution sitting in the fridge. It's been about 1.5 hours since adding the KNO2. Mongo said it should take an hour to precipitate. Does anyone have a different time?

[The_Rsert]

Yes, 45min. are also usually enough.
I've made yesterday also CTMTNA. I've not weigthed the yield, but the yield seems to be low.

[Myrol]

To The Rsert: Your source for Sodium Nitrite seems to be obvious :D did you bought the very pure or the 99% cheaper stuff? Well I buy most of my chemicals from this source too and spent some 8,40€ for a kilo of NaNO2. So I can make really much of TMTN.

Now is my question because you're a "German Friend" too: How much Hexamine, Acid (HCl or H2SO4) and Nitrite did you use and if finished how good was your Yield (in grams). I think I'll try some TMTN too, even if the Yields are low......after recrystallization from Acetone it is stable to be melt-cast perhaps with some percent AN to stretch the thing a little :)

100g Propanone dissolve at 50°C around 181g of TMTN, so if someone had tried to convert it to RDX he can use this test to see if its RDX or not!

About TMTN's toxicity, I wouldn't believe some drama scientistpapers, where they say that a single crystal let grow the cancer inside of you. I would say TMTN is as poisonus as Leadnitrate and cancerogen like Tri-nitro-toluene wich must observed not to strict, right?

About the performance: Has someone good data about TMTN's performance? I know its stronger than pressed Guncotton, but how much?

Leadblockexpansion is around 370cc per 10g and VoD reaches 7300m/s with melt-cast samples but has someone the Explosiontemperature the specific Energy (Energydensity). The only thing I have calculated is the Pcj with nearly perfect 200kbar (1,5g/cc and 7300m/s, ordinary equatation).

[The_Rsert]

Yes, I've bought the cheaper (8.40€/kg, 98%) stuff.
The sodium nitrite is slightly yellow.
I've tried the Mr.Cools way. The yield is very bad. Only 2.1g from 7g hexamine (filtered Esbit solution).
But the temperature rised to 15°C and I've used 24% HCL and not 15%.
Nitrous acid is very unstable at this concentration, 8% HCL will work much better for this Method.
And, Myrol do you know cheap German supplier for lead nitrate?

Another Idea:
CTMTNA melts very fast in flame. RDX needs more heat. Maybe it's possible to use this test to see if its RDX or not.

[M V Augusta]

[ dilute H2SO4 instead of HCl.

NBK2000 - I see you're like fuckin methods of peoples destroying. Cancer bomb - sounds funny but You're can obtain cancer much quickly when trying to make cancerogenic compound and solution.



just a simple thought about carcingenicity it's the dose that matters in all toxins etc

[Myrol]

Hello Men's! Well, I played a little with the Reaction Equatation how TMTN could be formed and ended up with a Formula wich I drawed down in Paint. :)

I think the reaction ist quite similiar to that of RDX just lacking three "O's" and the interaction of HCl with Sodium Nitrite.

I dont know if the HCl just works as a pH-catalyst or is necessary for the reaction itself. If yes, you'll need a LOT of HCl for one batch TMTN.

I read somewhere that TMTN only forms at pH 1 or "higher". So the minimum concentration of HCl in the solution must be around 4%. One mole HCl provides one Ion H+. One mole HCl weighs 36,5g so you need 36,5g HCl per Liter solution, thats with a little excess 4%. The unwanted DNPT also forms at pH 2-3 so 4% HCl is quite necessary.

I'll try a Synthesis of TMTN this week if I have time. Very diluted batches are prone to higher Yields as very concentrated solutions so I will use lot's of Water. (Not to much to keep the reaction going!).

But my Question: Has someone EVER detonated some TMTN with a real success? I've never saw a movie in the web "xg TMTN vs. Tree" or something like that......

TMTN is a good alternative HE-choice for me...even if my main chem supplier broke down, but with a kilo of pure NaNO2 I can make really some TNTM. I also dont believe the "super-cancerogenity" of TMTN. Yes ok, its a Nitros-Amine but I've never read in the Web that TMTN IS super-cancerogen :p If I wear good Nitrile-gloves and works outside under good hygienic conditions it shouldn't be that problem, right?

P.s. Please dont flame me know and say always and always again that im wrong. :rolleyes: Only stick to the truth!

[nuclearattack]

This HE doesn't seems so powerfull...370 cc lead expansion and 7300m/s...ummm...NG is better! ;)
Why should i risk a cancer when i can make liters of NG easily and with high yelds?

[nbk2000]

Try saving your schema in .GIF format, instead of .JPEG, eh? Much more compact.

[SidBoggle]

CTMTNA is at least fairly insensitive...not like NG which can be a little unpredictable.

[K9]

Well I'm in the midst of trying again. This time I tried keeping the temperature down and there was a lot less foaming and no noticeable NO2 production. Right now if I stir it up it foams and then goes down. I'm just letting it sit in an ice bath now and waiting. Is it normal that the solution is yellow? Thank you.

EDIT:
Well that's failure number 2. I tried the method straight off of Swedish Infomania, but still nothing for me. The temperature did hit 10 degrees though at the beginning of addition. Still, the first I tried there was massive foaming and NO2 being given off.

I'm going to try again sometime with less concentrated HCl and making sure to keep the temp at 0 the whole time. So aggravating! I just want this to work once.

[K9]

Well I'm in the midst of trying again. This time I tried keeping the temperature down and there was a lot less foaming and no noticeable NO2 production. Right now if I stir it up it foams and then goes down. I'm just letting it sit in an ice bath now and waiting. Is it normal that the solution is yellow? Thank you.

EDIT:
Well that's failure number 2. I tried the method straight off of Swedish Infomania, but still nothing for me. The temperature did hit 10 degrees though at the beginning of addition. Still, the first I tried there was massive foaming and NO2 being given off.

I'm going to try again sometime with less concentrated HCl and making sure to keep the temp at 0 the whole time. So aggravating! I just want this to work once.

[K9]

Well I'm in the midst of trying again. This time I tried keeping the temperature down and there was a lot less foaming and no noticeable NO2 production. Right now if I stir it up it foams and then goes down. I'm just letting it sit in an ice bath now and waiting. Is it normal that the solution is yellow? Thank you.

EDIT:
Well that's failure number 2. I tried the method straight off of Swedish Infomania, but still nothing for me. The temperature did hit 10 degrees though at the beginning of addition. Still, the first I tried there was massive foaming and NO2 being given off.

I'm going to try again sometime with less concentrated HCl and making sure to keep the temp at 0 the whole time. So aggravating! I just want this to work once.