Synthesis of chemical warfare agents [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

Rhadon

September 1st, 2001, 08:43 PM

I'm currently working on a project dealing (among other things) with the synthesis of chemical warfare agents.
What I'm *not* looking for: You're likely to find synthesis like this in chemical literature: {[(dichloromethylene)amino]oxy}(fluoro)methyl(oxo)-5-chlorane + isopropanol => sarin + phosgenoxim. If you've got ones like this: They will surely help me, but synthesis using more basic ingredients are much better.
If you know a way to synthesize any of the following compounds I'd appreciate your help. Please excuse spelling mistakes.

"HN-1", N-Ethyl-2,2'-dichlor-diethylamin
"HN-2", N-Methyl-2,2'-dichlordiethylamin
"HN-3", 2,2',2''-Trichlortriethylamin
"LEWISIT", 2-chlorovinyl arsindichloride
(2-chlorobenzylidene)-malononitrile
adamsite
any cyanide synthesis
arsenic hydride
bromobenzene cyanide
chloro pircrin (spelling?) (I know "picric acid +calcium hypochlorite")
chloroacetophenone
cyanogen chloride
diphenylarsine chloride
diphenylarsine cyanide
diphosgene
ethyl arsine chloride
methyl arsine dichloride
phenyl arsine chloride
phosgene (I know "CL2 + CO => COCl2" or "H2SO4 + CCl4 => COCl2 + ...")
phosgenoxime
sarin
soman
tabun
trichloroacetophenone
trichloromethyl chloroformoxine
triphosgene
VX

Any answers are very welcome. Thanks in advance
Rhadon

CodeMason

September 2nd, 2001, 04:44 AM

Nerve gasses such as sarin, tabun and VX, are similar compounds to many (organo-phosphorus) pesticides, and thus a trip to the DIY store may get you some useful percursors.
The two main ways to make cyanide are a) refining from apple/pear seeds and b) from potassium ferrocyanide which has been prepared in a furnace from raw materials. a has always seemed more attractive to me.
What about ricin? This can easily be made from castor seeds. However it is sluggish at killing you, and can take up to a week or even more. Many of the world's most toxic chemicals come from common plants. For instance, the leaves of the connifer Yew are EXTREMELY toxic. Other plant toxin sources are the leaves of rubharb and -something- from olieander.
Rat and insect poisons in themselves can make excellent war gasses when dissolved in water. Examples are flouride and nicotine sulfate. Be creative.

Rhadon

September 2nd, 2001, 11:06 AM

Your post covers some interesting aspects, thank you.

cutefix

September 4th, 2001, 10:21 PM

I think basis schematics for synthesis of these simple chemical war agents can be found in organic chemistry textbook or can be derived from this manner.
Chloroacetophenone which is can be made by Friedel –Crafts reaction (with AlCl3 presence)
C6H6 + COCl.CH2Cl ===> C6H5COCH2CL + HCL
Mustard gas by this reaction;
2CH2=CH2 + S2Cl2 ===> (ClCH2.CH2)2 + S
Lewisite
As2CI3 + C2H2 ===>ClC2H2.AsCl2
Chloropicrin
CHCI3 + HNO3 ===>CCl3NO2 +H2O
Diphosgene
CH3HCOO + 2Cl2 ===> ClCOOCCI3
Cyanogen Bromide
Br2 + KCN ===> BrCN +KBr
Cyanogen Chloride
CI2 + KCN ===>CNCI + KCI
Regarding those complicated organophosphorus/carbamate compounds they are similar to pesticide synthesis and you can use that as initial referrence.My favorite is VX.You can find it here:
The synthesis of VX is shown in US Patent #3,911,059,related precursor synthesis can be found in USPatent # 2,903,475; 2,907,787.Other s like TABUN,etc can be found in your own backyard.Remember it was Germany who started these complex materials.You can also check patents for chemical warfare agents,nerve agents,chemical agents because these can can give you related links.Do not forget Chemical Abstracts,Tetrahedron,Organic synthesis journals and similar literatures.To make it simpler for you classify first its effects to the target;such as 1)Nerve Agents,2)Blister Agents,3)Blood agents 4)Tears Agents,4)Choking Agents 5)Incapacitating Agents and 6)Vomiting agents.What is needed here is deligence in seeking these information.Be sure you have advanced understanding about organic chemistry so that you can mentally digest all these abstruse information.Good Luck!

Rhadon

September 5th, 2001, 07:43 PM

Some of your synthesis procedures are new to me, so they'll help me for sure. Especially the idea with the patents is fine. I took a look at the VX patent, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for this one!!

cutefix

September 6th, 2001, 02:43 AM

Check also these British Patents#1,346,409 & 1,346,410 for VX
Good Luck!

Teck

September 6th, 2001, 04:26 AM

Rhadon: If you can read russian I have a link that discribes the senthisis of about 18 different chemical agents, info, history and all. It also has molecule models of each one.

<a href="http://boomm.by.ru/glava10.htm" target="_blank">http://boomm.by.ru/glava10.htm</a>

(The site is 404 now. NBK)

[ January 24, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Rhadon

September 6th, 2001, 11:48 AM

Sorry, I can't speak russian. Thank you anyway, I'll probably try a translation utility later.

Rhadon

September 6th, 2001, 01:21 PM

Cutefix, where did you get the patent numbers from?? I mean: How did you find out which patents contain valuable information about the synthesis of VX? You can't do a full-text search because the patents are only available as images and their title doesn't point out what they are about. Or do you have another source for the patents than http://www.uspto.com?

Rhadon

September 6th, 2001, 01:25 PM

Oh, I did a mistake... The URL should be:
http://www.uspto.gov

BrAiNFeVeR

September 6th, 2001, 03:48 PM

If you "did" a mistake, there's allways the edit button above your message !!

------------------
"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"

Rhadon

September 6th, 2001, 06:07 PM

Yes, you're right... I think this function wasn't available when I joined the forum and I never noticed that it has been introduced. However, thanks for your hint.

cutefix

September 7th, 2001, 02:33 AM

Radon,NBK2000 told me about this TIFF site that you can download as freeware:
"you'll need a TIFF plug in to view the old files. http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/
from uspto…..try it!

Rhadon

September 7th, 2001, 04:48 PM

Since I had found no other way to save the TIFFs I already started making screenshots... So this plugin is pretty useful to me, thank you.

CodeMason

September 9th, 2001, 05:53 AM

Some interesting precursors here (from Organic Syntheses):

<a href="http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv5p0218">Chloromethylphosphonothioic Dichloride</a>
<a href="http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv5p0211">Chlorodi(alkyl, such as n-butyl or isopropyl)phosphine</a>
<a href="http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv5p1016">Tetramethylbiphosphine Disulfide</a>
etc...

With a little searching, on that site you can find a whole host of very 'useful' organic procedures. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

zeocrash

December 29th, 2002, 09:32 AM

i was wondering.
in the UK we have a paint remover called nitromors. despite the name it does not conatin any nitrogen in any compound or anything. but it does contain dichloromethane
i was wondering if it would be possible to convert this to chloropricin, by first chlorinating it,then nitrating it.
am i barking up the wrong tree or is this possible

Rhadon

December 30th, 2002, 07:05 PM

Yes, products which are intended for use by non-chemists often have names which do not really refer to their ingredients. In Germany they sell a paint thinner which is called Nitro, despite the fact that it doesn't contain any nitro compounds (but toluene).

As far as I know, chlorinating CH2Cl2 at home isn't a task that one is likely to perform with success...
If you start from CHCl3, you can use the way cutefix mentioned above. But don't use H2SO4 for the nitration since chloropicrin is incompatible with sulfuric acid and will decompose on contact - possible decomposition products are phosgene and NOx.

[ December 30, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

jelly

January 2nd, 2003, 01:32 PM

Rhadon: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Since I had found no other way to save the TIFFs I already started making screenshots..<hr /></blockquote>No hacker mentality? :D

Empty the browser cache, scroll through all pages of the patent and copy the .tiff files out of the browser cache.
Then empty the browser cache again, scroll through the next patent and so on.... :;

Rhadon

January 2nd, 2003, 03:00 PM

Jelly: This problem has been solved more than one year ago... I prefer the method utilizing AlternaTIFF since it is so much more comfortable.

megalomania

January 2nd, 2003, 03:15 PM

FOr me the only option is still trolling through the cache and opening the tiffs in an image viewer. Alternatiff has never worked on my computer for some reason. Of course I find the pdf files on espace to be much better anyway.

nbk2000

January 2nd, 2003, 03:22 PM

There's several different versions of AlternaTIFF. You may wish to check their site for the latest version. Or, if you're using a really old computer, it may not be able to handle the processing, regardless of plug-ins.

AlternaTIFF allows you to save TIFF files, so why do you do screenshots? :confused:

I, personally, prefer to get the patents off the USPTO site. Then I can use photoshop to edit the downloaded pages to extract the images for use in the DVD. Whereas, trying to do that from a PDF, means loss of image quality, and maybe not at all if it's locked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[ January 02, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Rhadon

January 2nd, 2003, 03:38 PM

NBK: Only before I heard of AlternaTIFF I tried to make screenshots, because the QuickTime plugin doesn't allow you to save the images.

blazter

January 2nd, 2003, 06:26 PM

Actually rhubarb leaves aren't that toxic. A book I have says that the toxic compound in the leaves are oxalic acid and its salts. The mechanism for toxicity is that the oxalates bind to serum calcium and it forms calcium oxalate crystals in the kidneys which lead to renal failure. The oral LD50 for oxalic acid is listed as 375mg/kg for rats on the MSDS. Oxalic acid poisoning is also quite treatable, and the book recommends calcium gluconate by IV to replenish serium calcium and diuretics to prevent calcium oxalate crystals from forming in the kidneys. On a side note, apparently the stalks of rhubarb aren't toxic at all, and around here rhubarb pie is fairly popular. I have actually eaten the raw stalks and it is a pretty unique taste, but it is quite tart.

OUAGADOUGOU

January 24th, 2003, 09:44 AM

Chloropicrin from CHCl3!? :cool:
Thats what I`we been thinking about a month ago.
Cutefix, Rhadon do you have any specifics or refs on this procedure.
If not I`ll look into this when I have time.

Could it be possible to chloinate CH2Cl2 in the presence of CuCl2 catalyst? Just a guess. Has anyone heared about something like this?

[ January 24, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: OUAGADOUGOU ]

Polverone

January 25th, 2003, 01:09 AM

Chloropicrin.
Kirby E. Jackson;
Chem. Rev.; 1934; 14(2); 251-286.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Mills prepared chloropicrin by the nitration of chloroform, by heating seven volumes of chloroform with sixteen volumes of nitric acid (containing much nitrogen peroxide) in a sealed tube to 90-100 degrees Celsius for 120 hours. It was recommended that the tube be kept at an angle of 30 degrees with the bottom of the bath, as it appeared that a more nearly horizontal position involved the destruction of any nitro compounds that may be formed, while an upright position caused the reaction to proceed with excessive slowness.<hr /></blockquote>This sounds like a really lousy synthetic method.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Datta and Chatterjee were able to obtain an 85 per cent yield of chloropicrin when acetone was added to ten parts of a slightly warmed mixture of two parts of nitric acid and three parts of hydrochloric acid, warmed for some time on the water bath, and then steam distilled. When allyl alcohol was gradually added to a mixture of the acids (2:3) with occasional warming on the water bath, its transformation was complete. In like manner ether and ethyl alcohol were converted into chloropicrin. And, as the result of extensive investigations, the found that whenever an organic compound broke up destructively under the influence of aqua regia, chloropicrin was invariably produced.<hr /></blockquote>Now that sounds more appealing, although if you have picric acid around it is probably easier/safer to start with it than to apply aqua regia to alcohol.

Rhadon

January 25th, 2003, 12:58 PM

Polverone, the last method you mentioned sounds promising. The yield is higher than I would have expected, and it might be worth a try.

OUAGADOUGOU

January 31st, 2003, 12:08 PM

Aha! Aqua regia does the trick! :)
Really good ref!
Nice thing to collect such interesting synth`s from the literature.
We should do this more often on more convential and quite potent CW agents, just for the fun of it.
Though my resources are not that good I`ll try to do my best.

Hystrix

February 11th, 2003, 01:44 PM

paul rogue

February 13th, 2003, 06:18 AM

CYANIDE

Cyanide is really very very easy to make if you can get an old inorganic chemistry book. It envolves using coal gas and sodamide. If anyone is interested in the exact procedure email me at pauls_in_San_jose@hotmail.com But i have to admit ricin is even easier to make. and is far more deadly when refined (something like 300 x more deadly)

"What we do now makes all the difference" - Black Hawk Down

Anthony

February 13th, 2003, 07:05 AM

If you're willing to provide the details to numerous people via email, why not just post it here just the once, for all to enjoy?

Mr Cool

February 13th, 2003, 07:57 AM

I can't imagine many people having sodium amide lying around though. Also, how do they solve the problem of the water produced?
NaNH2 + CO --> NaCN + H2O
H2O + NaNH2 --> NaOH + NH3 (<-- wasted NaNH2!)

MrSamosa

February 13th, 2003, 12:49 PM

A seemingly simple way to produce Hydrogen Cyanide was presented in War Gases. It involved passing electric sparks through a gas mixture of Acetylene and Nitrogen. The reaction is pretty straightforward:

C2H2 + N2 --> 2 HCN

This procedure involves no prohibited chemicals, so obtaining them would not pose a problem (unless Nitrogen is a regulated chemical; if it is, do correct me). I have no idea how to build such a reaction vessel that will pass electric sparks through the mixture, but I don't think it will be a difficult project. It may take off 3 hours from your Saturday afternoon.

Hystrix

February 13th, 2003, 06:21 PM

paul rogue:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Cyanide is really very very easy to make if you can get an old inorganic chemistry book. It envolves using coal gas and sodamide. <hr /></blockquote>Ha-ha. Come on, my friend. Do you have a source of NaNH2? IMHO it is a bit more expensive than sodium carbonate and urea. :rolleyes:
I'll prefer to melt Na2CO3+urea mixture 'cause it's cheap and inexpensive. Also, if you plan to use HCN you needn't refine this melt - just mix it with acid

Polverone

February 13th, 2003, 09:05 PM

Urea or cyanuric acid + alkali carbonate is indeed a good way to cyanides. See my "new adventures in cyanide" thread. You don't just heat the mixture, you also add carbon to shift the equilibrium toward cyanide (or at least I do). Sheesh, if somebody had just given me this reference 8 months ago I could have saved a lot of time and experimentation :)

simply RED

March 11th, 2003, 07:07 AM

What will happen if glucose is chlorinated. Or better bake fluoro derivate.
R-Cl + AgF =(water solvent)= R-F + AgCl(precipitate).
(the reaction works pretty well in making fluoroacetates).

Charlie Workman

March 13th, 2003, 03:06 AM

I followed the link to the website. Interesting. I was impressed with the sample chapter enough to order the CBW book. Will let everyone know if the rest is as good. Checked the sample chapter of his explosives book. Not quite so impressed. He seems to think that TNT + AN + Oil makes OCTOL. I don't know most of my explosives chemistry by heart, so someone else will have to give an opinion on the rest of it. BTW, the book was 35.00 (!!!). It had best be worth it. I checked out his links and he managed to piss me off enough to not feel bad about scanning it and posting it to the ftp. He has a "Scientists" veiwpoint on things. ACK!

zeocrash

March 13th, 2003, 02:19 PM

i'm not sure if this is the right thread you're replying to, but anyway i seem to remember that octol(if that is how you spell it) is made up of a mixture of HMX and TNT, but the only source i have for this is a couple of tom clancey novels. also i have not been able to find any mention of octol anywear, so i'm not sure if it really exists

Rhadon

March 13th, 2003, 03:56 PM

Yes, I can approve that Octol is a mixture of HMX and TNT. Mixtures can either have the ratio 70 : 30 or 75 : 25.

simply RED

March 13th, 2003, 07:46 PM

Octol is todays most powerful explosive used widely(as well as the HMX PBXs). Of course, it is a blend of TNT, HMX. A meltcast mix, cooled very slowly. It is used in most of the antitank rockets for shaped charges.

cutefix

March 13th, 2003, 11:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> but the only source i have for this is a couple of tom clancey novels. <hr /></blockquote>I think what you mean is Clear and Present Danger.It was supposed to be the filler for a bomb with a cellulose based case(which is improbale in real life).I do not believe either that such a sensitive filler is suited for precision guided bombs.
One thing that amazes me with Tom Clancy is he want to amaze his readers with fancy impractical weaponry and he does not understand a much about it either.He did not realized that this octol is in the process of being phased out and replaced with IHE compliant filler.
If that supposed bomb in his novel was filled with cyclotol (RDX/TNT) of the same ratio as octol) or much better a PBX in the same composition as C-4, it will not make a difference in blast damage and the explosive residues if analyzed will then be high in cyclonite which is available in plastic explosives and the blame will be placed on a wider area of suspects.
Octol a binary or a nitramine and aromatic explosives were among the well tested mixes for ordnance use but has the notorious defect of low stability and sensitivity.
I have not heard much abouts its use in heavy ordnance applications .
But it was used was relegated for shaped charge ammo.It was used before in LAW,Shilellagh and Dragoon antitank rocket.
I think its use nowadays is limited in small HE ammunition
<a href="http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/ARM/heat/ammo.html" target="_blank">http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/ARM/heat/ammo.html</a>
and it will be gradually replaced with less sensitive filler.
However elsewhere its still used such as in Russia HEAT rounds
<a href="http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/ARM/heat/ammo.html" target="_blank">http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/ARM/heat/ammo.html</a>

NightStalker

March 14th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Clancy gets a lot of stuff whispered in his ears from his fans in the armed forces. That's why his stories are so realistic. So it wouldn't be surprising if, perhaps, some things that aren't generally known outside of "the community" might make it into one of his novels. Things like paper-cased LGB's and such.

If the bomb casing is itself combustible, and it was airburst above a target, there'd be very little in the way of residue to show it was anything other than a typical car-bomb (as per the book). No bomb fragments like you'd normally get with regular gravity bombs.

Charlie Workman

March 14th, 2003, 03:28 AM

I was replying to the post directly above mine. I am aware of the composition of Octol, that's why I made the snotty remark. At least I meant it to be snotty. Check out the links and see what I mean. If I had read the explosives book sample chapter I might not have ordered the cbw book. Problem is I come from an age when you had to find these little snippets and clues for what you want spread through hundreds of references. You damn kids have it too easy these days. We had to make our chemical weapons from horse sweat and toad vomit. And fight off rampaging natives. And walk forty miles to school, uphill both ways.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

Polverone

March 14th, 2003, 04:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Clancy gets a lot of stuff whispered in his ears from his fans in the armed forces. That's why his stories are so realistic.<hr /></blockquote>I guess you mean "based on real-world hardware" when you say "realistic." The political situations and characters he comes up with are generally just macho bullshit. In that sense he has the same strength/weakness as many science fiction authors: he never lets realistic human behavior or culture get in the way of an interesting idea.

But I digress. What I find really questionable is the idea that military personnel know a lot about the technology behind their equipment. I've talked to a number of military people - not just ordinary grunts, but technicians in charge of specialized hardware - who really don't know the principles behind the equipment they use, or who wrongly extrapolate from their own training into related items. And military folks are famous for their tall tales. Maybe Clancy gets fed only good stuff from competent people, maybe he gets told something that sounds cool and he just uses it. I don't know, and it has been too long since I've read any of his books to start investigating specific examples. But just like a good sniper doesn't necessarily make a good gunsmith, a good ICBM technician doesn't necessarily make a good reference on the improvisation of nuclear weapons... and so forth.

cutefix

March 14th, 2003, 09:02 PM

And a good writer does not need to understand detailed military information either .
He will be fed with information from his entourage of researchers and he does not have any idea either if these people were fed bullocks by certain military people they interviewed knowing that classified stuff(related to specific military hardware) are seldom given ro shown to journalists.
What he need is to catch the attention of his readers then that will result in better book sells and send him laughing to the bank how his tall tales enriched his bankbook. :p

NightStalker

March 15th, 2003, 12:54 AM

Tis true...but it's also true that people, dazzled by the proximity of celebrity, tend to blab more than they should, in pathetic attempts to curry favor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Naturally, I'd hope that nothing too sensitive was passed on to his ears because, for all we know, Clancey is actually an ex-KGB deep cover mole who's since gone rogue, selling the secret tid-bits he gets from star-dazzled military fans to the highest bidder. :D

How's that for a story line? :p

Charlie Workman

March 19th, 2003, 03:24 AM

Got the book in today I ordered from the link earlier in the thread. All I can say is WOW! This guy did a very, very nice job. Title is "The Preparatory Manual Of Chemical Warfare Agents", and I would have to say that if you wanted to know a lot about chem weapons, this would be the one to get. A bit pricy, but has very minimal "padding". Unlike some books I seen (Seymour Lecker's comes to mind). It's 8.5x11 and about 250 pages long. Covers all types of agents, literally too long to list. The first forty pages cover basic lab procedures, but in a useful manner. Safety warnings are prevalent, but not really excessive. Good reference section. If anyone has a spare 35.00 to blow, this is definitely a good buy. This fella really did his homework.

Rhadon

March 19th, 2003, 10:21 AM

Charlie Workman, are you willing to scan the book? It won't be too much work: You could scan it with FineReader in double-page mode at 600 DPI grayscale, upload the bitmaps to the Forum FTP and I'd do the rest. What do you think?

80r15

March 19th, 2003, 08:19 PM

sarin synthesis procedure:
To the best of my knowledge this is the way it was originally produced.. so get ready...WARNING: Not to be attempted by inexperienced chemists due to the handling of HF, PCl3, HCl, etc... Also I am not responsible if you kill yourself while making this... THis is all theoretical...
SO HERE IT IS

Traditional synthesis for Sarin(Isopropyl Methylphosphanofluoridate or isopropylmethanefluorophosphonate or methylphosphofluoridic acid...)

FIRST STAGE:
PCl3 + CH3OH(methanol, methyl alcohol, or wood alcohol)... THIS STAGE YIELDS 2HCl and P(OCH3)2OH and CH3-Cl (PCl3 is toxic and HCl is highly corrosive)

SECOND STAGE:
that P(OCH3)2OH is heated to produce H3C-P(-OCH3)(=O)(-OH) and H3C-POOHOPOOHCH3(but the later should be removed for later use).
THIRD STAGE:
H3C-P(-OCH3)(=O)(-OH) + 2(PCl3) + 2Cl2 yields crap and HCl and H3CP(Cl)2=O, which is all we want...
FOURTH STAGE:
H3CP(Cl)2=O + 2HF yields H3CP(-F)(-F)(=O) and 2 HCl
FIFTH AND FINAL STAGE(if you havent killed yourself with PCl3, HF, and HCl, heres where you will die)

H3C-P(-F)(-F)(=O) + H3C-P(-Cl)(-Cl)(=O) + 2(H3C-C(-OH)(-H)-CH3 yields sarin and 2 HCl
that stage usually takes place in the missile since the precursors are MUCH less dangerous than sarin... I would have some atropene shots handy when making,....I will draw out the reaction and scan it in tommorow so that you can understand what i am talking about..

Anthony

March 19th, 2003, 09:12 PM

BTW, we don't do bullshit disclaimers here...

Ezekiel Kane

March 19th, 2003, 09:36 PM

I would really like to see pictures of your lab setup equipped to handle this synthesis, including NBC suit and final product along with all precursors....and perhaps the remains of those poor test subjects.

80r15

March 19th, 2003, 10:26 PM

fuck you. some guy asked for the synthesis and i told him it. its a dangerous synthesis, hence the warning, so get off my ass. If you want pictures, send me a digital camera since i spend all my $$$ on chem stuff...

darkdontay

March 20th, 2003, 01:41 AM

Knock it off guys, if you can not be intelligent enough to hold a simple conversation, then please leave until such times as you can hold a simple dialog with out using inferior words. I to would like to see your setup, or at least inquire as to what book you found your synth in?.

Anthony

March 20th, 2003, 06:43 AM

I hope that wasn't directed at me Boris? We don't like when people start childish name-calling.

My comment was a serious one - worthless disclaimers (they are) smack of ACB and similiar assorted BS. Plus they take up extra space. Give our members some credit, they know the stuff done here is dangerous. If they can't then they won't have the necessary equipment/chems either.

But if you still think it's too dangerous and we'll all kill ourselves, don't post it. Save us from our own foolishness! :D

Mr Cool

March 20th, 2003, 11:07 AM

At last, something useful from 80r15!!
See 80r15, it wasn't that hard to post something informative, was it?

80r15

March 20th, 2003, 06:55 PM

Im sorry about my previous posts and I would like to contribute to the forum... my attitude must have been due to taking all that LYSERGIC ACID DIETHYL AMIDE...lol.. but anyway, no that last "fuck you" message was not directed to anyone...sorry....
Now for where I found the synthesis. After digging through papers in my room, various O-chem books, and different websites, I came up with the synthesis and then later found a web-site to confirm it...
My setup is rather pathetic and on the small side, due to low income(0$$$/month) :) , but I buy the chemicals I need and am currently building up my supply. As for synthesizing it, I have stopped temporarily until I can find another good NBC suit. Alot of people have told me that NBC suits are pretty expensive and I have realized this. But NBC stands for nuclear fallout, chemical, and biological as you all probably know... I just need the C part. If any of you know of any good places to aquire one, please let me know. I have contacted approvedgasmasks.com and am considering buying one from them, and its not that expensive...
I hope to contribute more and will hopefully post the synthesis for tabun or soman on Friday if I can get it together.

Machiavelli

March 20th, 2003, 08:49 PM

The problem with putting together a synthesis this way is that you don't get a synthesis, you just got some chemical equations. What's lacking is stuff like reaction conditions, solvents to use, purification steps, special precautions, etc. Journal articles are much better. Also, Polverone recently provided us with a great book on the subject.
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000097#000000" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000097#000000</a>
Unfortunately the download isn't active again, but the message left is really beautiful. :)

Also when handling toxic chemicals I'd rather use a glove box than work in an NBC suit, preferably with the option to flood the whole setup with a hypochlorite solution or something similar in case something goes wrong.

Btw, if you can't handle drugs you shouldn't use them :p

darkdontay

March 20th, 2003, 09:03 PM

To get back on subject.
How is the project coming along Rhadon?
I seriously I'm interested in the project. Information concerning War Agents is cloudy and not very accessable. I was also wondering how Meg is coming along with his section.

Rhadon

March 20th, 2003, 09:48 PM

Oh, the main topic... to be honest: I had stopped working on it already in a quite early stage for different reasons. One of them is that I'm more interested in other aspects of chemistry now (but that doesn't mean that chemical agents don't interest me anymore), another that I don't have much time. I planned to take up the work again and start a project including the synthesis of chemical warfare agents about half a your ago, but I have to work more for my studies than I expected.

darkdontay

March 20th, 2003, 10:36 PM

Could you compile your resources that you had gain and upload them? After the Library is brought back up? I'm just strating to get into Chemcial Warfare Agents. As I think alot of Mebers are interested. Their is such a strabnglehold on information in this area. I can understand why, but still just for a passing intrest it would provide for some good reads.
Thanks.

Rhadon

March 21st, 2003, 08:53 AM

I don't think that I have made something that would be worth uploading, since there is not a single synthesis which cannot be found in this thread or elsewhere on this forum.

I could help Charlie Workman scanning his new book, that would be a much better contribution :)

[ March 21, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Charlie Workman

March 22nd, 2003, 04:06 AM

Sorry Rhadon, can't do it. The man who wrote this book deserves every penny he makes off it. I've been buying these books since the early 70's (my copy of "How To Kill" is from the first printing) and it takes a lot to impress me. This impresses me. Needs to work on his weaponization chapter, though. Bite the bullet and buy it. You won't be sorry.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

Machiavelli

March 22nd, 2003, 04:38 AM

If it's like his explosive book then he just copied the whole stuff from the patent database.
However another source for the book might be this site:
<a href="http://www.cannonfuse.com/" target="_blank">http://www.cannonfuse.com/</a>
The guy is selling the books and if you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll see that he also wants to trade bookz. Surprisingly, most of his bookz seem awfully familiar, at least if you have an ftp account. Maybe we set something up with him, anyone wants to try? Of course you'll have to scan it afterwards.

Rhadon

March 22nd, 2003, 09:26 AM

Charlie Workman: Well, it's your decision... I'm sorry to hear that, but what can I do! But just out of future interest: Is the book hardcover or paperback?

Machiavelli: Yes, that might be a way. Would be nice if anyone could try to arrange a deal with him :)

[ March 22, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Charlie Workman

March 24th, 2003, 03:35 AM

Rhadon, Machievelli is right in that he has a lot of patents listed in his refs. I don't feel this detracts from his book, though. There's too much that is not from patents. I'm not saying this guy has tested all this stuff, just that, chemically, he knows what he's doing. His comment gave me a thought, though. Checking his patent refs and posting them would not be an ethics violation. Source material is source material. He does not list them by patent number, but application number. I can cross-reference this info and get the patent numbers for you with little effort. Give me a week or so. A number of the patents are foreign though, and there's not much I can do about them. I noticed you and Machievelli are German. Want to check out the German ones? Sort of a cooperative effort.

kingspaz

March 24th, 2003, 05:50 PM

whether the guy who wrote the book deserves every penny or not is irrelevent. this forum is about sharing information and spreading the knowledge few people pocess. if somebody else bought it then the author is only going to get the sale of one extra book because that guy who buys it will most likely scan it. share the wealth!

darkdontay

March 24th, 2003, 07:57 PM

He just does not want to scan the book. I doubt after reading any books fomr the Library [FTP] he ran out and bought them. I respect the saying no to scanning it but palying games with everyone is just rude.. and touting it around also makes me a little taken back and upset... I will try and save up and buy the book if I can and then I will contact some mebers about mailing it to them to have it scanned for the Library. I would love to see the "book club" get off the ground.. but until the donations system gets set out and smoothed I thjknkit would be too soon to try and get the book thing going.

nbk2000

March 25th, 2003, 12:01 AM

Speaking of book clubs...

I had the idea of co-ordinating the sign up of forumites to certain bookclubs, like those found in the "guns and cops" type of magazines, such as Soldier of Fortune, Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement, etc.

Each member would get 4 of the "free" books offered, but since 5 or 10 different members are all get 4 different books, with no duplicate copies, that'd give us 20 to 40 different books to be sent to the scanners for conversion and uploading to the FTP.

Then we simply proceed to ignore the nasty collection bills that they send. :p

Lots of books for us, no money for them. :)

As for charlie, the book is his to do with as he pleases, just as Ctrl_C can do as he pleases when deciding who gets FTP access...and who doesn't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Charlie Workman

March 25th, 2003, 03:34 AM

I think you guys are missing the point. I don't care if someone else scans the book and posts it to the ftp. That is not my problem. I have a code of ethics I live by and I will not violate them. Number one- I don't steal. Period. No "ripping off", no "liberating", no nothing. For reasons I won't go into I have a special hard-on for intellectual piracy. Call me whatever you like, I won't do it. Before you think I'm acting all high and mighty and not keeping with the spirit of the board let me tell you something. I have very little I place great value on in this world- my family, a few friends, and the credos I live by. I don't steal, I will never betray a friend, and my word is my bond, for starts. I won't say I never lie, no one can say that honestly, but I avoid it whenever possible. When I have to it leaves a knot in my stomach, because to me it's wrong. This is how I try to live my life. As far as "touting" the book, I found something I thought of value, and thought others might like to know. As far as it being rude to do this and not agree to scan it, that never occurred to me. I've never been to the ftp. Check the records. If this pisses anyone off or gets me banned, I don't care. Even though we are fairly anonymous on this board and no one would know who did it, I would. My self-respect is worth more to me than that.
Charlie Out-

darkdontay

March 25th, 2003, 05:51 AM

Okay I have a book and I let you look at it? Theft, you did not pay for it.... Basicly this turned into a rant, and that is not what I want.. I will just drop it here. The book looks interesting and hopefully I will have enough saved up to get it in a 1-2 months [yes I have become that poor]

NBK I like the idea... I had come up wth s similair one before for my self to get a massive collection of books but I would need address so it bombed.. But I see where you Idea would work. If it ever gets off the ground I will be their to aid if you need.

Hey how goes the DVD.... I'm itching to purchase if possible a Pre.. So as to help finance the rest of the operation obcourse.

[ March 25, 2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]

Anthony

March 25th, 2003, 07:06 AM

Ok, let's leave Charlie alone. As he's explained, it's not a case of "it's my ball and you can't play with it". Scanning books is a lot of work and we shouldn't expect everyone to just do it because they "should". Rather, let's be eternally grateful to those who do take the ttime out of their day out of the goodness of their heart :)

80r15

March 25th, 2003, 07:12 PM

I will attempt to puirchase the book and scan it now that i have a scanner...

Rhadon

March 28th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Charlie Workman: Sorry for my late answer, I was absent for a few days. It'd be great it you could supply us with the patent numbers for the most well-known compounds, that would at least allow us to find the information ourselves without too much labour. But I'm not willing to translate the German ones to English. The reasons are that a) the work has already been done by someone else and I'm sure the book will get scanned sooner or later and b) I'm quite short in time. Hope that doesn't take off your motivation to give us the patent numbers. Thanks in advance.

80r15: Very nice! The proposition I made for Charlie Workman is also valid for you: You only need to scan the book at 600 DPI grayscale, two pages at once, upload the images to the Forum FTP and I'll do the rest. Unless you want to do it all on your own, of course.

[ March 28, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Charlie Workman

April 3rd, 2003, 03:04 AM

Here's the first batch of patents from the refs.

6,218,563- Cyanophosphonamides and methods of preparation

6,250,226- Non-lethal ammunition with incapacitating effect

5,700,971- Rapid-release smoke hand grenade

5,803,359- Device for generating a fog

5,364,989- 1,1,1-trichloro-2-nitroethane production

4,748,912- Mortar grenade

4,558,160- Production of dichloroformoxime

4,503,025- Process for preparing dicyanogen

4,044,684- Aerosol projectile for lachymating material

3,993,247- Atomizers

3,997,653- Process for the manufacture of cyanogen

3,963,770- Synthesis of ortho-chlorobenzalmalonitrile

Problem is, all the rest are pre-1975, which means I'll have to find classifications and hunt them that way. This will take a while and I'm not sure when I can get to them. In the meantime, if your interested, I have a pdf copy of FM 3-9, the army manual on Chem/bio agents and compounds. If someone can tell me how to do it I will upload it to the ftp. It's pretty good. Incidentally, the patents seem to all be US. You can check out the ones listed at <a href="http://www.uspto.gov." target="_blank">www.uspto.gov.</a> Hope this helps.

Rhadon

April 3rd, 2003, 08:09 AM

Thanks for your help, Charlie Workman. And also thanks for offering FM 3-9, but this file already is on the FTP :)

jalbion

April 28th, 2003, 09:29 PM

hey guys, I am working on how to make some vx, but i can't seem to find an easy way to make it. Does anyone know of a good recipe? thanks

nbk2000

April 29th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by jalbion
hey guys, I am working on how to make some vx, but i can't seem to find an easy way to make it. Does anyone know of a good recipe? thanks

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

Yet another moron steps into my sights!

Crikey...if there were an easy "recipe" (ACB anyone? ;)) that some lame like you could find on the 'net, then how is it that every 3rd world dictator with a pot to piss in doens't have great ol' tanks full of it?

:confused:

Could it be....YOU'RE A STUPID ARSED PUNTER?!

More than likely that's the reason.

You can't even construct a proper sentence! What makes you think you can handle a super-toxic chemical that'll kill you with a speck too small to be seen?

Supreme confidence in your skills stemming from years of work in the labs at Porton Down?

Or, the more likely reason, supreme stupidity derived from hours of reading a rather dodgy copy of the Anarchist Cookbook you found at TOTSE, as well as the sheeple leaders bleatings on how easy it is to find "recipes" for Weapons of Mass Destruction on the evil internet.

Get your daft arse out of here, and go be a nonce somewhere else, eh? :p

Tootles!

megalomania

April 29th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Why doesn’t everyone know about quick and easy VX? Sure, there are thousands of websites with the formula: Just add some hardware store sulfur to everyday household grocery store 2-diisopropylaminoethyl methyl phosphonite and heat in a pot on your stove! If you’re worried about any fumes that may be given off, just run a shop vac over the pot to suck up any nasties.

Did anyone notice I approved a batch of new signups yesterday?

zeocrash

April 30th, 2003, 12:54 PM

i think that we should encourage k3wls into doing dangerous foolhardy things as it will speed up evolution. i dont disagree with giving HEDs, i just think we should do it subtly, then mock them after they have been banned.

Rhadon

April 30th, 2003, 01:28 PM

I wouldn't encourage them to do dangerous things, but simply things that won't work. We won't lack the ideas... what about making 30% H2O2 by blowing air through water by means of a drinking straw (about an hour should be sufficient) ;). Once I posted a topic on Bombshock which said that castor oil could be used as a substitute for LSD :D. After a few days of argumentation one of them wanted to try it (perhaps someone already did but was too shy to tell me what had happened to him), but then the moderators noticed what was going on :D.

Infernus

June 4th, 2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by jalbion
hey guys, I am working on how to make some vx, but i can't seem to find an easy way to make it. Does anyone know of a good recipe? thanks

LOL

hey dude

try THIS recipe for VX

start off with CH3PCl2 and you might end up with VX...
if you think somethign is missing in the middle, do try yourself
like, buy a ton of diffferente chemicals and use them all, specially the ones that say
TOXIC, NOCIVE, RADIOACTIVE and CORROSIVE ....

or then again perhaps some knowledge in chemistry would hurt you, would it?

OMFG....

Kid Orgo

June 18th, 2003, 02:41 AM

This forum is the closest the internet comes to containing truly dangerous/powerful knowledge. In this case, however, it's not a matter of recipes to make CW or explosives, but more like an open exchange of chemical knowledge that makes it so powerful. The powers that be would like to see the great evil internet censored because they know what a free exchange of information means: power they hold for their own distributed to the people. They rightfully fear it.

Sorry if this makes no sense. It's late and i spent part of today baleing hay. I get unintelligbly leftist when it's late and i'm tired.

And for the record, we should do the best we can to keep the kewls safe and ignorant until a time when they're ready for real science. Each dead kewl is one more case the government can cite in any attempt to restrict free trade of information. We don't need that. So tell em that NaCl is hi-explosive. Tell em that orange juice and week-old KFC will make napalm. Eventually they'll take some real chem courses, and grow up, and become real scientists.

PAC

May 9th, 2007, 06:18 PM

After the patents from "The preparatory manual of chemical warfare agents" (here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=1692&page=6)) I could even upload my Collection of References for "Scientific Principles of Improvised Warfare and Home Defense Vol.5 - Chemical Weapons". It´s about 30mb (most of them are patents, but also Journals), only one reference (The pesticide manual) is missing. If someone is interested in this, I would upload it..

The_Duke

May 9th, 2007, 09:02 PM

Please do share them with us. :)

megalomania

June 17th, 2007, 01:47 AM

PAC, I don't suppose you have a copy of "The Preparatory Manual of Chemical Warfare Agents" do you? I could have sworn I had a copy around here somewhere, but alas I may not. If anyone else has a scanned copy I would appreciate getting a hold of it. Contact me by PM if discretion is required...

nbk2000

June 17th, 2007, 02:54 PM

I had a copy sent to me by a member, but it got 'lost' by the asswipe mail drop I was using at the time. :mad:

FebiFurx

June 19th, 2007, 06:21 AM

About cyanides. It is so called "Tenifer process" for steel workpieces treatment. The bath is loaded with Na2CO3 and urea (45:55 by weight IIRC), then heated to 500..700 deg.C. for 1..4 hours (details are in the melt at that time) an then it is cooled. Here are main reactions:
Na2CO3 + 2(NH2)2CO --> 2NaNCO + 2NH3 + CO2;
4NaNCO --> 2NaCN + Na2CO3 + CO + N2.
Iron and nickel are catalysts for this processes. In industry resulting melt contains 12..20%(wt) NaCN.
Probably the yield may be increased with addition of coal:
NaNCO + C --> NaCN + CO

[ April 03, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Hystrix ]

Correct me if I'm wrong but... doesn't urea decompose upon 132.7 °C? That's quite under the temperature you need in this process... Well cyanide from urea and carbonate is very interesting but I'm not so sure it will work, or maybe urea doesn't decompose upon that temperature, or maybe the products of the decomposition reacts in some ways with the carbonate forming the NaNCO?

FF

PAC

June 19th, 2007, 08:26 PM

No, I don´t have a copy. I only got the reference list from a friend of mine. I even would appreciate getting a copy.

plutobound

June 19th, 2007, 11:19 PM

I have a copy. Give me a couple of days to get it scanned in and I'll post it on rapidshare

plutobound

June 21st, 2007, 07:35 PM

I have a copy. Give me a couple of days to get it scanned in and I'll post it on rapidshare

Sorry this is an additional post, couldn't edit previous post.
*************************************** EDITED***************************
[deleted[/url]

password: deleted

Somewhere between the creating on one computer, transfering to another computer, the file got corrupted. Sorry about that.

I've created a new .rar file and reopened it to verify the password is correct and contained PDF file is good.
Link is:

http://rapidshare.com/files/38625010/New_Building_Code.rar

password: simple

Enkidu

June 21st, 2007, 08:03 PM

I haven't finished downloading it yet, but thank you and nice job. You might consider posting the link in the rapidshare thread as well.

megalomania

June 21st, 2007, 08:25 PM

That password does not seem to work for me...

nbk2000

June 22nd, 2007, 12:55 AM

Maybe he meant 'simple' as in 'the usual password'?

plutobound

June 22nd, 2007, 01:17 AM

Mega's post is regarding my unedited post which the linked file was corrupt.

The edited post has a link to a good version and the password is literally the word "simple" (first thought that came to mind as I'm trying to fix the file and thinking KISS).

teshilo

June 22nd, 2007, 01:42 PM

About classification of CW agents from RS org .. Usually synthesed :CO ,CL,H2S,Br COCL2.More hard :mustard more more: tabun, sarin, V-X....

nbk2000

June 22nd, 2007, 01:50 PM

I downloaded the file and the password is 'simple'.

There's a synth in there for Phosgene that uses CO passed through liquefied chlorine, followed by self-distillation. I always read that a catalyst (UV/Activated Carbon) was required to get any reaction.

megalomania

June 22nd, 2007, 02:04 PM

That's better, the updated file works like a charm. Good work, plutobound, this book is a fine addition to The Forum :)

Mr Ledgard, the author, is very clever cloaking his sources by listing them by their patent application numbers, or rather as just "application numbers." It was obvious to me those were patents. At this time I would also like to thank PAC who must have painstakingly assembled all of the patents in the rar collection given earlier in this thread.

I have only taken the time thus far to peruse chapter 11 on experimental chemical warfare agents. I don't think I have ever heard of these compounds before.