chloroform bomb

[goiterjoe]

I'm new to here and don't know if this has been discussed before, but here it is anyway. take one of those short ziplock bags and fill it with 400g of sodium hypochlorite powder(like pool shock or powdered bleach). take this bag, seal it except for at the corners, and slide it into a one liter plastic bottle(they tend to have a wider mouth. next fill the bottle with 200ml of hardware store acetone. screw the cap on, shake it until the bag breaks open, and walk away. the sodium hypochlorite will react hot and fast with the acetone to produce trichloromethane(chloroform) and sodium formate. the reaction will run hot enough to boil the chloroform and pressurize the container. the excess acetone in the reaction will try to eat through the plastic, and eventually the cap will weaken enough to blow off and pump volumes of chloroform gas everywhere, knocking out anyone standing nearby.

[Mick]

um....wtf?

Dick H.E.A.D.

[deezs]

I think you should hold your mouth for a while, and read through all the archives.
But first you should apologize for the shit, you have posted. If the gods (moderators) has a nice day, perhaps you will not banned for life.
You have to learn a lot...

[goiterjoe]

what, has this been discussed here before? not sure what your problem is based on the short and meaningless response you gave.

[goiterjoe]

if you don't think it works, then why don't you try it out before you bash my post. SWIM has made chloroform several times this way for welding plexiglass and used the resultant sodium formate to produce performic acid by converting to formic acid with sulfuric acid. the formic acid is distilled and stirred into 30% hydrogen peroxide to produce performic acid. when this reaction is done to acquire the reagents, the acetone is very slowly dripped onto the powdered bleach to prevent boilover. if it is all added at once, like as said in the first post, you end up with a problem on your hands(or somebody elses).

[Anthony]

I works because the same process is written as a synthesis for chloroform in NBK2000's PDF.

[Rhadon]

Surely you'll be able to synthesize CHCl3 that way, but knocking out people with this method won't work. Chloroform is not as powerful as you might think, everyone will be able to get away before he's weakened enough to go down. An odorless gas would be another thing...

[PYRO500]

yeah, like a tank of N₂O burst open with a charge. and we are M_gODS the G is silent http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[goiterjoe]

it doesn't happen because a book says so, it happens due to some basic principles of organic chemistry. and a person can't run away from a chloroform cloud if they're asleep. hell, if they're awake when the shit goes off in a closed room, it's not like there is that far they can run. if you've never tried knocking a person out with chloroform, then don't bitch about how weak it is because you don't know. Swim's seen a person hit the floor after walking in a room where a person was synthing a 2 liters using a gasmask.

[nbk2000]

Having chloroformed myself and others with a saturated cloth, I can say that it's not instantaneous. Even breathing hard and fast, it takes about a minute for resistance to weaken. Plus, the reaction will be running very hot, meaning the total amount of chloroform produced will be just a fraction of the possible yeild. It MUST be run cold to prevent formate production which is a useless byproduct if your intent is to incapacitate people.

Much better would be to take the liter bottle, fill it almost full of premade chloroform, and a few ounces of concentrated sulfuric acid. A CO2 cartridge is dropped into the bottle just before use, the cap screwed on, and the whole bottle turned upside down.

The acid, being denser than the chloroform, will sink into the neck of the bottle (along with the powerlet), eating away the lead seal of the powerlet till it ruptures, instantly overpressurising the bottle with hundreds of PSI, exploding almost a liter of chloroform into a mist.

Expect people to come running out of the room, but falling dazed or unconcious moments afterwards.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[DarkAngel]

NBK wouldn't you get a better chloroform fog if you use a small explosive?
This could be made:

You could seal 1 end of an
PVC pipe with thin/lead by heating
some and pour the liqued mass in to
the PVC pipe and when it's not
hot anymore you could putt some
KCLO3/Suger mix in the PVC pipe.
Than you put an heat ignited
explosive in it like AP(Putty)
The other end is seald with something else.

And than it could be used as the same fashion as you discriped with the Co2 Cartridge,The KCLO3/Suger would be ignited when the H2SO4 has eated through the lead and than the AP would be sett of.

I don't think it would result into an
FAE as the AP burns so fast without enough heat that it sett's of the Chloroform vapor,and the KCLO3/Suger mix would only burn before the explosion.

But i have no idea what the results
will be if AP-putty is used,
Both method's are pretty dangerous
but with my methode you could putt more
lead inside the PVC pipe and the lead
would act as a delay and if used you
must use an acid concentration of
10% not 30% and don't putt to much
lead in the pipe or you will just have a simpel pressure bottle explosive.

------------------
ÐarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited July 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited July 01, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

really need to look into what Chloroform will break down into when heated. It is composed of what? Cl2CO...right?
If the above stated is the case when heated it could break down into Cl2 + CO both of which are fairly poisonous. If the object is to knock them out and not kill them this is something to take into consideration. What about using an atomizer on the end of a hand pumped fire extingisher. or perhaps something the is precharged.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Ezikiel]

Hey Blak .... the last I checked chloroform was CHCl3 and it does not decompose unless it is heated with H2O or anything that will hydrolize it. And CHCl3 decomposes into COCl2.
How about using a black powder charge. They use it in movies to vaporize napthalene.

------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

[nbk2000]

Hmmm...heat breaks chloroform down into phosgene, a WW1 poison gas. Point behind chloroform bomb is to incapacitate, not kill. Thus heat = bad idea.

PVC burster = shrapnel = bad idea.

Prepressurized container OK, except what are you going to use that can resist the solvent action of chloroform and contain the pressure? A fire "extinguisher" could be pressurized, but then there's the weight. Plus it would take a bit of time to eject the chloroform. Even 10 seconds gives time for someone with quick reflexes to react.

A simple powerlet in a 2 liter bottle will instantly overpressurize the bottle, and the explosion of the bottle will spray the chloroform into a nice cloud. Don't forget that chloroform is highly volatile and will evaporate into vapor within a few seconds at most after spraying.

If you need command control, rather than random timing, use a small charge of black powder in a plastic bag ABOVE the chloroform, not in it. A tablespoon or two should be enough. This way only a miniscle amount of phosgene would be produced by the burning of chloroform vapor. Not enough to harm, let alone kill.

Also, remember that people exposed to chloroform will first pass out, then go comatose, then stop breathing, after contined exposure. So if used this, and left them in the room, within a few minutes you'd have a room full of dead people.

Even in the best of circumstances, 1 in 3,000 people have a fatal reaction to anesthia where their body temperature skyrockets and cooks their brain. 1 in a 1,000 die regardless and that's under hospital conditions. Figure a 1 in 20 or higher in this sitution for fatalities.

If the idea is instant incapacitation with no regards to fatalities, than hydrogen cyanide would be better suited. Instant knockout in low levels (half ounce per 1,000 CFT), rapid dispersal, easily made, and antidote available.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[goiterjoe]

phosgene is a very ineffective war gas (Obviously someone didn't study WW1 CW, otherwise they'd know that phosgene caused 80% of gas fatalities then. NBK2000). if your intentions were to incapacitate the person permanently, you could pack some culture tubes with sodium sulfide and stopper them off with aluminum foil. then add a molar excess of sulfuric acid to the plastic bottle and cap it. shake it and leave it. the sulfuric acid will dissolve the aluminum away until it reaches the sodium sulfide, at which point it will rapidly convert into hydrogen sulfide gas and pop the aluminum foil out of the culture tube. the reaction will proceed fairly fast after this point, and eventually there will be enough pressure to blow the cap off the bottle(sometimes it helps to shave a little off the threads to help lower the failure pressure of the bottle.) H2S is more deadly than cyanide gas, but your body is able to better recover from H2S than HCN because H2S doesn't mess up your cell structure. it has the smell of rotten eggs, but in lethal doses it is almost impossible to smell because it drowns out your olfactory glands really fast.

heat parrafin(or other heavier petroleum byproducts) with sulfur should also produce hydrogen sulfide, albeit in much lower quantities.

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 20, 2001).]

[Ericm115]

I guess this is kinda on topic. I didnt want to start a new topic and get flamed for not seeing this one - anyways. Can someone tell me more of the properties of chloroform? such as safety. Also with chlorobutanol. I dont mean to doubt NBK's pdf, but I am just looking for some other opinions. What effects does chlorobutanol have, how long does it take, is it safe? Has anyone ever tried either of these with luck? Thanks.

[Mr Cool]

I know that chloroform is carcinogenic.

[Victim]

All this information is good an all, but this is the Improvised Weapons section correct..?

[MrSamosa]

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but it didn't make sense to start a new one for a simple question...

It was mentioned that heating Chloroform to decomposition with water produces Cl2 + CO, the two precursors for making Phosgene. NBK mentioned that the higher temperatures produces Phosgene. Usually when synthesizing Phosgene though, there needs to be some catalyst...usually light or organic matter (activated charcoal, piece of tree bark, etc). If one were to try to decompose Chloroform to produce Phosgene, is the organic matter necessary to synthesize the Phosgene? If it isn't, would it increase the yields?

Is this an easier way for producing Phosgene? Or is it easier/more reliable to stick to the old method of CO + Cl2 in the presence of a catalyst?

[nbk2000]

The lab process of catalytically combining CO +Cl2 is still the most efficient way to make phosgene. But, the thermal decomposition of chloroform is easier.

It might be more efficient to reflux the chloroform with a spiral of red-hot nichrome suspended in the vapors, just like the process for making ketene from acetone.

Considering how cheaply chloroform can be made from acetone and pool chlorinator, you could easily afford to have crappy yields and still get enough phosgene to gas a house.

[inferno]

Simply pressure-bursting a soft drink or otherwise plastic bottle won't spread the chloroform very effectively i dont think. IME of bursting them (with NaOH and Al foil) they make a loud bang but the contents of the bottle, well the gaseous products at least, don't get spread far. I did see a 2 litre lemonade bottle make a probably ~8cubic metre cloud of vapourized NaOH once, but only once.

There would be better ways to spread the chloroform, probably using a blasting cap inside a plastic baggie of CHCl3.

[nbk2000]

Chloroform is highly volatile. If it's poured out, it'll disappear in a minute or two.

I've seen 2 liter soda bottle bombs explode too. It'll spray the chloroform quite nicely, thank you very much.

Nothing to prevent you from installing a misting nozzle attached to a dip tube in the screw on cap for the bottle and pressurizing it with acid/bicarb.

[inferno]

NBK - Was the bottle burst with NaOH/Al foil or dry ice? If it was with dry ice, it probably had more material in it than a NaOH one, and so had more to spread...Maybe im wrong but the ones ive seen/done dont spread much

Anyway ill stfu im going off topic

[MrSamosa]

I guess how much it spreads is secondary if it is being set off in a confined area. From my experience with NaOH/Water solutions + Aluminum Foil in a 16 oz Pepsi Bottle, it spreads vaporized NaOH around a 5 ft radius and a gooey burny black liquid about 2-3x as far. This is assuming that the bottle is stood straight up, not lying on its side.

Even so, don't forget that gasses diffuse. Forgive the crude example, but when you pass wind...the smell spreads across the whole room, does it not? Even if it is not spread very far immediately, it will diffuse across the whole room. And the Chloroform being spread by an explosion, it should do that somewhat quickly.

This is not counting the fact that the Chloroform will be a liquid very briefly before it evaporates to a gas. The split second that it is a liquid, it will be spread across the whole room before it volatilizes. The concentration may not be too high, but it will be spread.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[PrimoPyro]

Goiter! I didn't know you were a member here. [happy happy, I know someone]

Why did you never report your success with the ethanol method at home? Chromic tried it several times with failure to control the reaction, and Ive wanted to know if this would work for a long time now.

You were able to isolate formic acid from the reaction after liberation with acid? This is good news to me.

Good to see you here. How do I PM at this site, eh? The buttons are all so tiny. :p

PrimoPyro

[zaibatsu]

You can't PM Primo, you have email for that kind of thing. PMs are for the Mods/Admins use only.

[PrimoPyro]

Ah, yes. Thank you zaibatsu. I have discovered quite a variety of functions I have presented to me only to be told I don't have this ability, then asked, "What are you thinking!?" Hahahahaha, that's cute.

Man, this site would have really helped me out a lot when I was really into this sort of thing a few years back. But I still like reading about it and posting info. :)

Haha, "Newbie" how ironic. Any chance I can get the spelling changed to "Newbee" ? I'd be forever gracious, and even might perform a sexual favor or two for any female mods in thanks. :p

Who rated me? Ack! I've been labeled! What does zaibatsu mean? Is it Japanese? I'm gonna look it up on an online translator.

PrimoPyro

[kingspaz]

primo, try and stick to the topic and don't clutter the thread with useless babble.

[nbk2000]

He's from The Hive. They have a different style of postings there.

HERE, however, we try to keep discussions on topic as much as possible.

Keep this in mind Pyro.

BTW, "zaibatsu" is a japanese term for a cooperative grouping of businesses.

[PrimoPyro]

I understand perfectly. I hadn't the intention of making it a common occurence.

You'll often find my ramblings to contain lots of good information pertinent to the subject. Just not in this one. :D

My experience with the Hive has been rather pleasant and I only have good things to say about the residents there. I'd like to assume the same could be said for the views from the members here, but somehow I don't get that feeling.

Regardless of where I'm from, my purpose here is the same as your defining purpose: To assimilate and disseminate information regarding energetic chemistries and weaponry related to these energies.

PrimoPyro

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: PrimoPyro ]</small>