Insects as Weapons

[nbk2000]

<a href="http://pub8.ezboard.com/bantfarm" target="_blank">http://pub8.ezboard.com/bantfarm</a>

Not your toystore ant farms either, but some seriously BIG mamba-jamba antfarms, like you'd raise a million fire ant colony in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Also, <a href="http://antfarm.home.dhs.org" target="_blank">http://www.zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/read/read.html</a> More ant farm fun.

Why ant farms, you ask? Well, raising venomous insects is an article that's going to be included in the DVD, so it's part of my research. I've got a couple of blackwidows and brown recluses in a cooler full of ice, to see how well they store. Had them on ice for a week so far and they're still perky when thawed. :)

No pesky feeding is needed when they're hibernating, plus they're safe to handle cold, taking a minute or so to thaw out.

<small>[ November 15, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[NoltaiR]

A forum about raising ants... I have seen it all now.. :p

[vulture]

Why do I think that you want to genitically manipulate ants to produce methanol/methanal instead of formic acid NBK? :D

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

Exactly how did you come by these black widows? (that is if you didn't just pick them off the ground :D ) and what are they like to handle (docile/aggressive ?)

It sounds like a brilliant way to store something for future use, any plans to milk the spiders for the venom? It would take a while but the toxicity would lend its self to quite a few plans :D

I know someone with access to a spitting cobra, he's beeen able to milk the thing of over 50 cc's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> takes a while but when you happen to be a zoo keeper you happen to be able to spend a while doing things to snakes :p

after looking at that forum i HAVE to say this, the hoards of evil bulldog ants :D will soon be marching in my area

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_wasps/BulldogAnt.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_wasps/BulldogAnt.htm</a> muahahahahahahaah!

<small>[ November 04, 2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: vir sapit qui pauca loquitur ]</small>

[nbk2000]

I picked up the BW's from a woodpile. As for handling them, I can't really say since I DON'T. I just keep them in some clear slurpie cups (seperately) buried in ice. Though I've seen them being handled (bare handed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) on a TV show by some spider expert. Apparently they're quite timid.

I know that BW venom is extremely toxic, though how you'd "milk" one of the bastards...let alone hundreds.

[EP]

I remember reading that black widow venom is about 15 times more poisonous than rattlesnake venom. However because the amount in a spider is so small, they are rarely deadly. I've seen em in the wild while hiking, and they are far smaller than most people think.

I doubt there is a practical way of getting the venom out of them, so you'd be better off just tossing a handful of them at the target! :p

[Anthony]

Mortar & pestle?

[Crow]

Anthony, I doubt dring them and crushing them would do little as the spider would probably save all its energy to keep itsself alive as you are dring it, and will stop producing venom :rolleyes: . I suppose you could get the venom the same way you get it from snakes but I'm not sure on where the venom sack is. If the sack is in an accessable place and you have plenty of BW's, just pull 'em off.
NBK what are you going to use this for? Some sort of drug? (I have seen people take shots of whiskey with rattle snake venom and its appearently quite powerfull :D ) Or will you just place the venom in some sort of food and poison someone, or even just inject the venom straight into your vitim?

[Energy84]

Sounds like I'm gonna have to keep my eyes peeled. I've seen a BW in my house one time. I was just chaseing it around the floor a bit until I noticed the telltale red markings on it's ass end. The little buggers really are smaller than I thought they would be though. Too bad, she's grease now... :rolleyes:

[Fear]

I've seen them milked before, on a documentary, using a very small hair sized pipet, clamping forseps, and a mild microscope. seams like it was a lot of work for a small amount of venom.

[nbk2000]

<img src="http://www.aqua.org/images/blackwidow.jpeg" alt=" - " />

Pretty, isn't it? <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon23.gif" alt=" - " />

The venom glands are in the part of the body with the legs, not the "belly" with the hourglass on it.

Taken from <a href="http://spiderpharm.com/venoms/techniqu.htm" target="_blank">http://spiderpharm.com/venoms/techniqu.htm</a>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
Venom gland dissection produces a very crude and often inconsistent product when compared with properly milked venoms. Nevertheless, gland extraction has its place, particularly for which are difficult to milk or when milking is not practical for other reasons.

Relatively few precautions are required. If frozen spiders are used it is a good idea to remove the abdomen while they are still solid. Otherwise, the glands may be degraded by digestive enzymes released by disrupted intestines. The glands are also be rinsed in isotonic solutions after dissection to remove hemolymph and other contaminants from dissection.

Venom Apparatuses and Venom Apparatus Extracts:

The venom 'apparatus' includes the glands, chelicerae and associated tissues. Typically this is obtained from anesthetized or freshly thawed spiders by twisting the chelicerae to break the pleural membranes and gently pulling out the glands which are attached by delicate venom ducts. The glands are rinsed in saline, dabbed dry on tissue paper and frozen on dry ice.

Venom Glands and Venom Gland Extracts:

The procedures are identical, except that the glands are removed from chelicerae. This is a simple procedure for most spiders since the glands are exposed after pulling the chelicerae. The glands of sac spiders, mygalomorphs and some others lie entirely within the chelicerae and have to dissected out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There's also an electrical means of venom collection, but that's time consuming. It's easier to just rip the glands out of their bodies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
The neurotoxic venom of the Latrodectus genus contains six active components with a molecular weight of 5,000-130,000 Dalton. The venom affects the motor nerve end plates of neuromuscular synaptic membranes by the bindings of gangliosides and glycoproteins at the synapses.

This allows the channels for sodium influx into the neurons to remain open, resulting in the release of acethylcholine and norepinephrine into the synapses, thereby inhibiting reuptake/ reverse taking.

The result is the excessive stimulation of motor nerve end plates. It is necessary to note that the venom spreads through the lymphatic system.

A bite by the female spider produces LATRODECTISM.

Local manifestations. The local reaction is limited: pair of red small spots evolves at the site, there is also a small erythema, edema and numbness. The neurotoxic venom produces symptoms after 15 minutes to six hours later. Usually, the shorter time before the onset of symptoms, the more severe the envenomation.

Systemic manifestations. A sharp pain occurs at the bite site, but later also involve the limb and other skeletal muscles (trunk), particularly muscles of the chest, abdomen (intense abdominal pain has been mistaken for an acute appendicitis), thighs (muscle rigidity, fibrillation, contractions, tremor) and face. Sweating, contorted, grimaced face with blepharoconjunctivitis, lacrimation and ptosis is called "facies latrodectismica" (Lat.). Nausea, weakness, hyperesthesias, hyperreflexia, sezures, and diaphoresis are also arising.

Extreme restlessness occurs, and symptoms are resolved within 24-48 hours, but may last several days with more severe envenomations. Cardiopulmonary manifestations include bronchorrhea, hypertension, and tachycardia.

Others: "Pavor mortis" Lat.- fear of death, vomiting, priapism, urinary retention, thirst, salivation, convulsions, and interference with speech can occur.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Given how such a tiny amount of venom is capable of doing this, it'd be a relatively simple matter to yoink out a couple dozen venom sacks from BW's, mix them up with distilled water, and slam it into someone with a syringe to ensure they die a hideous death.

Eating it wouldn't have any effect, so injection is needed. I wonder what it'd be like to have the FULL venom (not the normal tiny bites worth) of a dozen BW's injected into a person, and how they'd die.

Wouldn't be pretty or painless, that's for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

You aussies have the funnel web spider, which is very toxic, and easily milked. Simply tap it with a stick and it rears up with fangs dripping with venom that can be sucked up with a pippette.

Also, the concept of insects as weapons is underappreciated. Insects are tiny, easily breed in vast numbers, cheap, disposable, autonomous, and can be quite deadly.

A bucket of fire ants blown into a room through a small tube snaked through a wall would quickly clear out anyone inside. The ants are aggressive, the stings hurt like hell, and will seek out the targets without you having to guide them. :D

You can swat them by the score, but there's thousands more where those came from, body armor and guns are useless against them, and being covered in pissed off insects is a definite distraction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[BoB-]

I was just wandering about the practicallity of animals as weapons, feral dogs could be trained to kill, then realeased in path of the target, the dogs are put to sleep, and the event is called a tragic accident.

Also if dogs can be trained to track a specific person by smell, why cant they be traied to kill a specific person as well? Imagine breeding untracable assasin dogs. The dogs could even have there teeth swabbed in ricin dissolved in parrafin, The dogs will only lick off a small amount, but more than enough ricin will be broken off during an attack. Of course this removes the "accident" element but insures death.

NBK, if the victim is allergic to a specific insect then only one bite could prove fatal. Many people are allergic to bees, and fireants, and these insects find there way into homes all the time. You disable the victims phone, and hide they're keys in the coach cushions, you shake the insect(s) container to make it aggresive before realeasing it. Then after the victim has passed on or gone into shock, you reconnect the phone line and establish your alibi.

Insects are very usefull, domesticated crickets learn to recognize certain people, and will only stop chirping when threatened or when a new person walks into the room.

Has anyone ever seen "Eek the cat"? there was a short cartoon on that show that featured bee weapons, Imagine throwing a box of bumble bee's into a room and after a delay having the box fragment, or open, sending extremly pissed off bees everywhere. Bees would be ideal since they fly and are therefore more difficult to outrun.

Insects would also be one hell of a way to control movement, if the police try to come in through a certain hallway they are met by hundreds of thousands of bees and fireants, this would also prevent hostages from escaping through this exit. The airducts could also be filled with bees (since ants would just crawl out the vents) to prevent uninvited guests from entering.

If I were a rich mad genius I would train bees to only bite people wearing a certain color of clothes, then I would paralze the insects ability to produce venom, then after milking it of all its current venom, I would replace it with Ricin dissolved in a non-toxic solvent. Repeat a few hundred times and you have an army of serial killers that will never talk, and only attack boys in blue. Muhahahahahahaha.

[nbk2000]

Actually, there's a chemical attractant that you can buy at stores that's used with traps to attract wasps and hornets to their deaths. However, if you were to spray this attractant onto someone who was allergic to such insects and a nests worth of them *just so happened* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> to fly into a locked room where this person was sleeping...

Also, I've read of how the toxic component of the ricin protein has been genetically added into the E. Coli bacteria and used for cancer research. Now, I also know that insects can have certain bacteria living inside of them.

IDEA: Wasps or such with this toxic ricin protein added into their venom through either genetic engineering, or direct injection of the toxin into their venom sacks via microsyringes like those used for injecting microliter amounts of fluid into gas chromatographs.

Do so while the buggers are cold, and keep them on ice till ready for use. Spray target with small amount of attractant and release cold wasps into locked room. Bugs thaw...target gets stung a few times...dies a week later of delayed allergic reaction to wasp stings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Dogs trained to kill isn't a new idea. Even saw about some guy who trained a dog to kill his wife when it heard a certain word on her favorite TV show. Naturally while he was at work. :D

Would have been the perfect crime since it was written up as a "tragic case of dog gone insane", if homie hadn't bragged about it later on. :rolleyes: By then the dog had been destroyed, but circumstantial evidence was enough.

I LOVED Eek! That show would have me laughing so hard some times I was in serious danger of pissing my pants. The bees were used by the dinosaurs in the show.

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Crow]

Dog training is always a good idea, except for the fact that most people are afraid of large dogs growling at them and will usually run. If you want a true trained assassin train a monkey. Monkeys are expensive, but they are easily trained and anyone would let one climb on their back. Yes, im taking this a bit far, but it's good to think of these things.

[nbk2000]

NO way I'm letting some monkey I just saw climb on MY back!

[irish]

talking about australian spiders we also have what we call white tips or white tails, that inject a bacteria in the venom that starts the flesh rotting. could this be culturd in a pedri dish etc. I wonder,I know little about bio.
PS the rotting will not stop until cut out
edit= I will try to add more info. tonight I ran out of time.

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: irish ]</small>

[EP]

Insects have been used in warfare before. In the 1930's Japan attacked China with plague infested fleas. The US and Russia, along with other countries, had (have?) large facilities to produce millions of fleas and mosquitoes to carry plague, yellow fever etc.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :

<img src="http://www.readingroom.net/clients/studies/foxkids/images/anim_02.gif" alt=" - " />

[nbk2000]

I meant the insects themselves, not as carriers for biological agents. DUH!

Are you sure it's a bacteria that causes the rot? The brown recluses I have also cause spreading tissue necrosis, but it's caused by a toxic protein that causes cellular death, and the resulting decay products cause a chain reaction in the surrounding tissue.

[EP]

I know what you meant, I just said that because some people seemed to think insects had never been used for this type of thing before so I was giving an example of a previous use of insects.

I think in South Africa they used (or at least experimented with) insect and snake venom along with the classics like anthrax.

My picture of Eek didn't show up in my post above... :(

:p

edit: odd...it works now...whatever.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: EP ]</small>

[irish]

I am not positive that it's bacteria but I know people that have been bitten by them and it's not pretty. this is worth a look
<a href="http://www.austmus.gov.au/factsheets/white_tailed_spider.htm" target="_blank">http://www.austmus.gov.au/factsheets/white_tailed_spider.htm</a>
also this
<a href="http://adelaidegraham.tripod.com/clinic.html" target="_blank">http://adelaidegraham.tripod.com/clinic.html</a>
IRISH
edit= hit post instead of preview

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: irish ]</small>

[knowledgehungry]

Has anyone thought about the use of Bullet ants? they are Lethal, big and aggressive. <a href="http://www.expasy.org/spotlight/articles/sptlt014.pdf" target="_blank">Information on bullet ants</a>
Fun Fun

[nbk2000]

Problem is that they only live in south america, where there's no forumites. So, we have to address the needs of the majority of our membership in the US, europe, and oz.

[megalomania]

Why just this summer I was entertaining the idea of breeding mosquitoes. You see I live near a swamp, and in an area currently infected with the West Nile Virus. I’m not quite as much up to speed with biology as I am with other sciences, but I am sure the information is out there to extract and culture the virus, or to just breed the infected bugs. Since the first plague victim would likely be me, this one stays theory.
Most social insects use pheromones I believe to communicate danger. Ordinary honey bees can be agitated by isoamyl acetate (pear essence), a chemical I have synthesized before.

[knowledgehungry]

I stumbled across this as a way to purchase bullet ants (in the UK at least) <a href="http://www.insectpets.co.uk/livestock/antcolonies.asp" target="_blank">Bullet ants for sale</a> it is kind of expensive but its cheaper than flying to south america.

[nbk2000]

You can buy a whole colony from these guys! :) That means breeding them in large numbers.

Fear my Ant and Chicken army! BWAHAHAHAHAAA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Think there's anywhere that sells the funnelweb spiders? And how to get them through customs... <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon17.gif" alt=" - " />

I've read that the early US BW program raised mosquito larva on moist papertowels, and feed them blood from shaved animals. I'm thinking those furless cats would make perfect food. :) They look too freaky to be allowed to live! :D

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

Wow, a bullet ant colony is a bit pricey...

Now that you mention it, I'm sure I remember a pet shop near me having a Black Widow in a few years ago. It's possible that I dreamt/imagined it, but I have this image in my mind of a little perspex box full of bark and stuff with a label stating "Black Widow". Maybe it was a male (= less nasty, right?) or a less dangerous variety if I really did see it. I'll check soon, to see if they do have anything (I haven't been in a pet shop for ages, so I don't know what they've had recently).
Of course you can get scorpions which could be good if you could bred large numbers, and tarantulas which would be useful to scare people to or away from places if they know nothing about spiders.

NBK, be careful if your chickens get hungry, it could start a bit of a fight...

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</small>

[chemwarrior]

NBK, have you ever considered using cryonics to put something like a scorpion to 'sleep'? I dont believe it would be too difficult, and I believe that I have an article somewhere that gave step-by-step instructions as how you could do it to a cat/ dog and bring it back. It didnt seem too hard at the time, and you could have a nice little arsenal of killer scorpions, or if you got inventive, infect a dog with some disease, freeze it, then when needed, bring it out of hibernation. Since it was frozen, the bacteria SHOULD be in hibernation as well, and if I remember anything from biology, it will have to get inside another host before comming out of hibernation.

EDIT:
NBK, Im pretty sure that Ive seen a rather backwater store (It may have been at one of those flea markets...) but it was selling rare and unusual animals and if Im not mistake, they had a small tank of funnle webs spiders. This also happened to be in Kansas. I found the place when visiting relatives, so Ill ask them if they remember the place and if the guy still sells 'em

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: chemwarrior ]</small>

[nbk2000]

The beautiful thing about having a funnel spider in the US would be that there's no antivenom available here for a non-indigenous species. :)

Only the australians stock it. Therefore, anyone bit here has a better than 50% chance (I think) of dying from the bite. More advantages are that there is NO assay available for the detection of funnel web spider venom. :)

But only the Sydney funnel web spider (Atrax robustus) is known to have caused deaths in humans. All the other 37 species can cause illness, but death is very rare.

More detailed info on the funnelweb spider bite:

<a href="http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic548.htm" target="_blank">http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic548.htm</a>

A refrigerator is adequate to cause spider hibernation. A freezer would kill them in short order, so just above freezing is enough.

Though, I've thought about how scientists have used genetic engineering to give tomatos the gene from jellyfish that keeps them from freezing in artic waters, so that the tomato can be frozen without turning to mush.

Well, couldn't the same thing be done to insects so they won't die during freezing weather? Imagine what it would be like if pest insects didn't die off for a season but, rather, slept during the cold, only to come to life during any mild days. They could continue eating, breeding, and infecting all year round. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon23.gif" alt=" - " />

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

After searching the internet, I've found that breeding pairs of Hairy Desert Scorpions sell for about £30, as do most tarantula species. That scorpion is the only one I could find that was for sale and had a warning about its sting, and it was only sold to people of 18+ whereas the others were for sale to 16+ year olds. So you could breed them and keep them in cold storage to prolong their life, then when you have an arachnid army a thousand strong you can do whatever you want with them. Remember, one sting is apparently very painful, many stings would likely be fatal.
Black Widows sell for about $10, but I couldn't find breeding pairs. In fact I could only find one place (US only) that sold them at all.

I think bees might be more practical and easier to breed large numbers of, since you wouldn't need heaters, live food etc. And bees make yummy honey, scorpions make fuck-all.

[xyz]

I have read something about a scorpion being able to survive being frozen solid inside a block of ice and that it will reanimate when thawed out.

The trouble with scorpions is that they aren't actually all that dangerous, the only recorded death in Australia from a scorpion was when a 20cm+ scorpion stung a baby.

I am interested in this whole ant farm thing as I have a colony of bull ants ( 3cm long red things that hurt like fuck when they bite you) within walking distance from my house.

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Ants get stepped on...nobody tries stepping on scorpions. :D

Besides, scorpions have a reputation of being dangerous. I've never yet seen a movie where the scorpions didn't kill someone with a single sting. And this is what the sheeple have implanted in their heads.

Whereas ants...they get no respect. No matter how dangerous they actually are (like "bullet" ants), you'd think nothing about stepping on one, or swatting one. It's not unusual for people to step on fire ant mounds thinking they're going to squash some ants and have some laughs.

It isn't until 10,000 pissed off ants swarm over their bodies, biting and stinging, that the dumbfuck realizes what a mistake he just made. But that's no good as a deterent before the fact.

A room crawling with scorpions is a room no-one is going to walk into. :)

[Korfaction]

While trying to get poison from an animal source, maybe scorpions is the easiest to milk, as the dart is easy to handle with pliers. And you keep the scorpion alive, so you can milk it once every day for example, and store the poisonous substance, waiting to have enough, and/or an occasion to use it. You then just have to be sure it won't decompose by itself in the storage.

Because it's interesting to raise ants or spiders, but I think that killing a spider to get its venom is pretty stupid: what is the price of a spider, compared to the quantity you'll get ? Such a low quantity doesn't even always kill a person though it's 15 times more powerful than rattlesnake venom (for example). One dose would require you to kill several spiders, to get dilute venom in various gland liquid.

Ants could be a way of getting poison: the problem is you need to have a whole colony. It takes place, and one's hobby may not be to take care of its 20K ants. btw it would still be a bit difficult to get the poison.
Formic acid used to be made of crushed ants, filtered, you guess it wasn't a great method, but it worked. You need to crush your bullet ants... 3£ the worker, it's a pretty expensive venom. :rolleyes:
And you need to construct a colony, which will take several years to developp (about 5 years for normal black ants).

Last, snakes can be grown, there are small deadly snakes in Amazonia, and like for scorpions the venom is easier to get, without killing your "pet".

But if you're fond of these little insects, you can both enjoy their company and get venom for any purposes. I personnally would like raising a small small colony of ants (I admire their organisation) but for poison I would try to extract alkaloïds from oleander, also very deadly, and really easy to get. (extracting alkaloids is not really difficult --&gt; search Google, i found it in an encyclopedia). Or a single scorpion, but I would be bored of giving it some small insects... I should let it in my garden <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Any comments ?

[nbk2000]

Very large insects like bullet ants wouldn't have to be killed to get their venom since they have sizeable stingers.

Though it'd certainly be an exercise in patience if you wished to grow thousands of them.

But as a one "shot" thing, and considering the exotic nature of the toxins and the very high likelyhood of there being a lack of antivenom in your neck of the woods, it could be worth it.

[Fukineh]

Fire ants seem to be an easy way to get the job done if you have enough of them. As I'm sure several of you have felt a fire ant bite, I was privileged with a unique kind of attack while in Texas when I was about 8. While changing, several fire ants got in my swimsuit. 20 seconds later, my testicles where stinging like crazy, and all my efforts of grabbing myself to crush them (in a public place I might add) angered the ants even more. The result: lots of pain, humiliation, and temporary elephantitus of the testicles.

Anyway, even on water these ants are painful. They can cluster in little balls to float, and if you released enough of them in the middle of a lake around an unsuspecting victim, they would all crawl onto the persons head and attack. Unless you can swim underwater with your eyes being stung, your pretty much fucked if your in this situation: no where to go but down.

Here is a new method of ranged attack I just thought of for people who are allergic to bees or people you just want to share some pain with. Collects a swarm of killer bee's into one small container what brakes easy and load it into your trusty high caliber pneumatic cannon (3'' barrel should do). Shake the container to enrage to insects, then lob the cartridge at low pressure onto your unsuspecting foes: Instant attack from the sky. You could always shoot it right at them but this would be an obvious attack and might stun or kill the bees, while a low speed lob would seem to simply be a gift or punishment from the heavens :o (the individual may just think the gods hate them if they are that kind of person, and go into hysteria and paranoia).

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Fukineh ]</small>

[nbk2000]

"Killer Bees"?

Got a URL for where we can buy some "Killer Bees" from? :rolleyes:

BTW, I finally got tired of keeping my spiders on ice. I'd say it's safe to say you can store them on ice for several months and still keep them alive and perky when they warm up.

I had a neat little fight club going with widows versus recluses. Widows won. :)

Though victory was mine when the widows went up against my boot. :p

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[knowledgehungry]

I saw a TV show on PBS about killer bees. It turns out there are some in California, but i wouldnt want to go around catching them my self.

[Fukineh]

Fine, use genetically mutated killer humming birds instead of killer bees :D . I have been thinking about your "Fight Club" idea for a while NBK, except I was thinking of creating a miniature war zone instead. You could get two colonies of enemy ants and create two "empires" separated by water. You could inflict natural disasters and supernatural events upon your minions (ex. fires, explosions, ah... yellow rain from the heavens). You could also drop ants into enemy territory and watch natures cruelty, followed by bridging the water gap or sending an army over seas to create total war and chaos. I don't know, that would just be kind of a power trip- to play supreme ruler or god. Unless of course you're campaigning for insect rights. I personally don't murder ants, I just call upon certain “natural” disasters which include fire and water, not squishing.

[nbk2000]

And I thought I had issues... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

But, already beat you to it by about 20 years. I too did the same thing in my backyard. It was great fun when the "dam" was destroyed by a "meteor" and the ant "city" was wiped out by a torrent of water. :D

Though I think we're tending to drift from the topic at hand.

BTW, "murder" ants? :confused: How can you "murder" something that has no intelligence and isn't even a mammal for Gods sake?

I guess this makes me a speciest as well as a racist. :p

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Mick]

okay, i have to admit..making an ant fight club would be pretty cool.

build a few nests, #1 with bull ants, #2 with fire ants, #3 wih termites, and #4 with regular old black ants.
after a few months of feeding them and letting them build there nests into super colonies, join the 4 farms together in a large arena.

chances are, they'd prolly ignore each other..altho, i don't think the black ants and termites will.
however it would be pretty cool if they did fight, and raid each others nests for food.

yeah..issues..i know :D

[Arthis]

I wonder what could make ants fight together ?
You need to grow the 2 races in a small place, for them to need more vital space.

For sure termits and ants will fight, but ants are stronger. Maybe you would need to equilibrate the teams: more termits and few bull ants, or less termits and many black standard ants ... make few experiments to determine the best proportions :D

For ideas of battlefields, I would suggest (Unreal... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) you separate the bases with water: 3 bases with a little resources, and connected to a larger place to fight, collect food, etc...

[PYRO500]

"Massed opposing armies fight each other along a front. The fighting continues for days, and hundreds die. This is not trench warfare among men. The armies are the weaver ants of African forests. The ants are so fierce that when the battle is resolved and the boundries of the opposing colonies have been fixed, a "no-ant's-land" exists between them where ants from each side do not dare to enter."

That's from Isaaic Asimov's Book of facts, full of many interesting things :)

As far as ants go I beleve that each colony has diffrent pheromones and thus no ant from on colony can invade another colony and steal their shit.

IIRC a while back someone disected an ant and took pheromones from one and made all the other ants follow the pheromone trail :) that would be pretty cool if you could force ants into a huge opposing army and have them hold at bay untill you set them off with a toothpick of pheromones and start your war. Just think of it... You could test battle field combat strategys when it comes to mass gatherings of armies :) would that be cool or what?

Check out this link to see how ferce these ants really are:
<a href="http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/tigris/883/1folder/withprey.html" target="_blank">http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/tigris/883/1folder/withprey.html</a>

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[green beret]

Ive often thought about using insects as a weapon, or a distraction at the very least, one idea I had was to somehow fill a jar with wasps, stir them up and make them very angry, then throw this jar into the target room/area, one idea I had to ensure the jar would break was to carefully file a ring around the circumference of the jar, never tested to see if this could actually be done though. Another theoretical idea was to have the lid made of alfoil, increasing the chances of a puncture, hence releasing them.

To bad though if the jar didnt break and it was thrown back at you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[nbk2000]

There are stingerless species of wasps and bees. I, too, have long thought about the utility of a swarm of pissed off (yet harmless) wasps buzzing around inside a closed space.

Ever seen the reaction from people in a car when a bee gets sucked in? Arms start flying, people flapping around like fish out of water, and other crazy antics. Now multiply that by a few thousand in a room. :)

Ever seen the movie "Arachnophobia"? The end, when there's thousands of spiders crawling on every surface of the house, swarming over everything? I guarantee you that such a scene would turn ANYONE into a hysterical bitch.

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[green beret]

I know all too well the reaction from a wasp or bee getting sucked into a car :rolleyes:

I have seen aracnaphobia, thats one of the reasons I started thinking about insects as weapons, like you said, a scene like that would turn anyone into a crazy bitch, imagine releasing a whole box load of spiders into someones house during the black of night, cut the power too.....

[Tended Tripod]

The problem with raising spiders for venom, despite the hardship of getting the venom, is that spiders are cannibals. I read something in National Geographic on the textile industry and how they wanted to use spider silk to make cloth, but couldn't because they just eat eachother. It's off topic but they used genetic engineering to get goats to produce the proteins required to make spider silk, and then got the proteins out of the goats milk. They then process it and voila: shit loads of stuff thats a helluva lot stronger than steel by weight.

[nbk2000]

Fortunately, insects don't require exercise to remain alive. You could keep them in film cans and feed them through holes that are too small for them to fit through.

Extracting the venom would be an incredibly tedious task. I'd just use them alive as autonomous weapons that would engage the victim on their own.

I've also thought of the utility of using microsyringes to replace the venom in the stingers of wasps/hornets with a buffered solution of crystalline ricin toxin. You'd have to take it down to the crystalline state of purity to affect a lethal dose in the tiny amount of fluid that an insect could inject in one sting, but the delivery method would insure a kill if the victim was stung, especially by multiple insects. They'd be incited to attack the target by using a selective pheromone that they emit when they swarm a target, which would be covertly sprayed on the target prior to releasing the insects from downwind (so they can track the scent).

[zeocrash]

wouldn't ricin kill the insect, being a cytotoxin.
or would theis be unimportant because the length of time this would take to happen

[nbk2000]

I don't think the bugs would be bothered by the ricin in any significant way that would preclude their use for this.

Also, I don't think insect blood is evenly remotely similar to mammilian blood, so they may even be immune to ricins blood destroying effects.

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by nbk2000
I don't think the bugs would be bothered by the ricin in any significant way that would preclude their use for this.

Also, I don't think insect blood is evenly remotely similar to mammilian blood, so they may even be immune to ricins blood destroying effects.
The seeds from the castor bean plant, Ricinus communis, are poisonous to people, animals and insects.(Source : Ricin Toxin from Castor Bean Plant) (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/ricin/ricin.html).

I do believe insects need protein synthesis to survive like us, so ricin is toxic to them, since the cytotoxic effects of ricin mess up with the protein synthesis.

[nbk2000]

As I said, if they live long enough to serve their purpose, who cares? :) And all the better if they do die within a couple of days, so that they can't accidentially zap your own forces.

Thought how would a person go about getting it into the bugs in a rapid fashion? Manually using a microsyringe to drain their venom sacs, then filling it back up with ricin solution, would be incredibly tedious for more than a couple of the buggers.

I read about how cancer researchers had attached the toxic part of the ricin molecule to e. coli which was able to reproduce the toxin. Perhaps infect the insects with such a strain? But then there's always the remote risk of it spreading to native insect populations, and wouldnt' that be a bitch? :eek:

[pyromaniac_guy]

Originally posted by nbk2000

I read about how cancer researchers had attached the toxic part of the ricin molecule to e. coli which was able to reproduce the toxin. Perhaps infect the insects with such a strain? But then there's always the remote risk of it spreading to native insect populations, and wouldnt' that be a bitch? :eek:

living in a swamp of malathion fumes if the authorities figure it out in time.... OR... living in a real world version of 'the stand', but without fun charaters like trash can man and flagg


man i better hurry up and buy me a missile silo to live in..

[sauvin]

Assuming that the "active" protein in ricin acts in a more or less linear fashion, and also assuming that metabolic rates between man and insect are not markedly different, I would be led to believe that an insect afflicted with the ricin would die in an amount of time commensurate with their significnatly smaller body masses. Such a line of reasoning may be further exacerbated with my suspicion that an insect's metabolic rate would be considerably higher than man's. Survival times for ants, wasps and other potential weapons may even be a small handful of hours.

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by sauvin
Assuming that the "active" protein in ricin acts in a more or less linear fashion, and also assuming that metabolic rates between man and insect are not markedly different, I would be led to believe that an insect afflicted with the ricin would die in an amount of time commensurate with their significnatly smaller body masses. Such a line of reasoning may be further exacerbated with my suspicion that an insect's metabolic rate would be considerably higher than man's. Survival times for ants, wasps and other potential weapons may even be a small handful of hours.
There's no active protein in ricin. Ricin is a protein. Pardon me, I should have not said that! I'm not your teacher.

Effects of a protein synthesis inhibitor on the hormonally mediated regression and death of motoneurons in the tobacco hornworm, Manduca sexta (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8419521&dopt=Abstract) - Here a protein synthesis inhibitor (CHX. Its weaker than ricin, but works on a similiar way, inhibiting protein synthesis) is injected on insects. They survive for some days, good enough to use them as weapons.

[sauvin]

I've already posted elsewhere an explanation of the concept "nobody is my teacher". Short form: I can learn something from anybody, but nobody is expected to proactively teach.

Any idea how heat stable the protein is?

[anthracis]

On topic: blister beetles (also named "spanish fly"? I'm not sure, you should know better...) have a strong poison, cantharidin ( see http://www.abvt.org/canth.html or search the web yourself). I'm profoundly disgusted of poisons as a weapon but I couldn't help myself... :(

[AsylumSeaker]

How about..
an improvised claymore using a low power explosive to lob semi dethawed jumping ants in the direction of the target? :D
If you are an aussie then you will know what jumping ants are, and that they sting like crazy.
I think I remember hearing that Australian bullants can stay frozen for months at a time. Its just because their bodies are so basic. Nests of them buried in snow can become re-active after long winters or something. Not that we have much snow over here though.

[Jacks Complete]

I haven't been able to find this on-line:
<hr><b>Thief lays honey trap</b>
Employees at the Kmart in Sedalia, Missouri, were left to fight off a toilet full of bees as a thief made off with $60 worth of stolen goods.

Police recieved a call at 4.18pm from a staff member at the store, who reported that a man had concealed several stolen items while in the men's toilet.

The man then realeased about 100 bees, apparently small honeybees, in the room and fled the store in the commotion that followed, according to police reports.

"I'm sure it was so we would be more concerned about the bees than about anything else," said store Manager Lancy Ulrich.

A customer found the bees and reported them to a staff member, Mrs Ulrich said. Staff took insecticides off the shelves and killed the bees.

"We do have associates here who are allergic to bees," said Mrs Ulrich. I'm sure if a customer that was allergic to bees went in there it would be a dangerous situation." {I'm astounded someone stating something so banal had the sense to kill the bees! She sounds like typical management fodder.}

Staff members suspect the thief made off with $61.48 in stolen merchandise.

Because of the confusion, witnesses were unable to offer a description of the suspect, except to say he is a white man in his early-to-mid twenties, police said.

-Page 36, Bizarre, Sept 2003<hr>Seems like a lot of hassle for less than £40 worth of stuff!

But the point is, it <b>worked</b> and he got away scot-free!

[Piglet]

How about simply training a pride of lions to do ones bidding. Both effective and practical...
No, practically you could train a horse to follow audio cues (which you do via a video/audio link) and get the thing to gallop headlong towards your enemy carrying a 100Kg nailbomb (also radio detonated). A 21st centuary horse whisperer.

[nbk2000]

Perhaps someone didn't bother reading the title of the thread before posting in it?

You know...the thing at the top of the page that says "Insects as Weapons"?

There's already an "Animals as Weapons" thread. You may wish to post your horse bomb idea there. :rolleyes:

[Piglet]

I know it was a bit off topic but it was a joke (you have heard of them?) I mean, spiders are arachnids, not insects (I thought) and what about scorpions. Don't see you complaining about those?

[nbk2000]

Spiders and scorpions aren't insects? What are they, then? Mammals? :rolleyes:

[atlas#11]

Spiders are arachnids, I don't know what the hell scorpions are but I would guess they are arachnids.

Black widows only average about a half inch from leg to leg but when I lived in vegas we had them living out by the trash cans and they would have abdomens the size of those old 50 cent coins(about an inch and a half)! I thought of using them as a weapon last year when I met my world geo. teacher :mad: .

How could they blame you unless the assaliant was captured and you had left some clue on it? As long as the spider is native to that area it would just be another horrible accident :D . With some steroid or something you could get them to grow bigger and have more venom so you could assure a quick death, slow and painful is best but now days they have antivenoms and antidotes for anything so the quicker the better.

The only problem I can see is getting the spider in a position where it will be certian to bite them without getting caught. The neck is the best place for obvious reasons but the skin is sensitive on a concious person so they would brush it off before it got a chance to bite. A concious target would be very difficult, I wouldn't even try it. A bee maby but not a spider if their alert, a bee will be able to land on them and sting before they can remove it.

If your going to try and introduce poisons in to your insects or arachnids then you will eliminate the "horrible accident" part of it, and you may as well inject them yourself. Of course you would have a great aliby by not being any where near their at the time of attack but it still lables it as a murder and their will be an extensive investigaition.

Bees and wasps are great for distractions or just all around chaos. I have a freind who keeps bees and he could lend me his suit and I could just harvest nests from around the woods and then go throwing them through windows :D . Has anyone seen a black jacket? The reason for using them is they can sting multiple times, are huge and loud when they fly, and they freaking hurt like hell. I have huge nests of these bastards hanging off my shed and the trees around here in the summer. Immagine what a whole school shut in the lunchroom with a full pissed off nest of these would look like. I think I'll try this :D ! Placing it in someones locker and shuting it after taping up the vents would be great, Maby rig it to fall out or get riped open when they open the locker? Glove compartments on cars? Cabinets?

[Jacks Complete]

Piglet,

don't bait the mods.

Perhaps a few biologists wouldn't class spiders as insects, but everyone else would!

Pinning a cabinet or safe shut on a hornet nest could be funny. I have to wonder what would happen if you just let the thing land, then crushed it with both size 9's? Do we think the nest would loose big time, or would enough escape to be a viable threat? Perhaps some form of armour would be useful?

Ripping the side off the nest would be very much better, but how?

Note I have no real experiance with this stuff, since I'm in the UK, so bees/wasps are about the worst we have, native.

[nbk2000]

A wasp nest showing up overnight in a persons locker isn't going to be considered "natural" anyways, so might as well load them up with something extra. ;)

Rather than even making a feeble effort at deniability by using a natural nest, load the bugs up in perforated tubes with partitions that seperate them from each other (if they're not from the same nest), and rig up an ejector mechanism that will softly disperse them onto the target.

I saw an interesting tidbit in the "Do electric fruitflies dream of electric bananas" (yet another cultural reference to Bladerunner) thread that said fruitflies respond to anesthetics the same as humans, at the same dosage levels.

So, if this applied to wasps or ants or whatnot, then dope up the little buggers :D with a narcotic that'll keep them docile for a known period of time, and place them where they're needed so that they'll be waking up and ready for action at the needed time.

I've experimented with this idea (on spiders) using 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane from a canned air duster to immobilze them.

I put the bug in a small test tube, sealed with a one-hole stopper, and flushed out the air with the duster, sealing the stopper hole with blu-tack.

The spider would stop moving almost immediately, though it was still awake, just holding its breath. Yes, I can tell when they hold their breath, because they stop pumping their abdomen.

After a couple of minutes, when it can no longer hold its breath, it starts thrashing about, as there's no oxygen in the atmosphere for it to breath. After a bit of this, it does the "death curl", as anyone who's used bugspray will recognize, where the legs fold up against the body.

Now, if you let it sit like that for a minute or so, then take it out and put it in a new test tube, it'll be awake again after about 10-15 minutes.

Being very simple creatures, short-term oxygen deprivation doesn't cause any lasting effects, unlike mammals which would be vegetablized. I've been able to gas the same spider about a dozen times in one day, with no apparent damage, as it still responded vigourously to been poked by running away, and even web making.

The longest I've been able to let a spider remain in the gas, and still recover afterwards, was about 4 minutes, which required the better part of a day for recovery and seemed to result in some sort of retardation as I was able to snip off part of a leg without it running.

Any longer and they stay dead. Size of insect, species, exact gas composition, exposure time, etc, would all require testing to ensure repeatable results.

At the least, being able to gas a canister full of deadly insects, and reliably inert them, would be useful for the attacker, by ensuring he doesn't get swarmed by his own weapons while setting them up for deployment.

Also, there are scents that are specific to each species, that attract, repel, enrage, and whatnot. Having a supply of these would increase effectiveness, because you could induce attack behavior on cue, rather than hoping for victim initiated behavior, which is rather random chance.

[Jacks Complete]

Glad you liked my thread!

Here is something related:
<hr>
Wasps sniff out danger

New Scientist vol 175 issue 2355 - 10 August 2002, page 20


THE US military is drafting wasps and training them to give an early warning of chemical weapon attacks.

In the wild, the small predatory wasp Microplitis croceipes uses its ultra-sensitive sense of smell to locate its caterpillar prey, in which it lays eggs. But it can easily turn its talents to detecting other chemicals.

Glen Rains at the University of Georgia, Tifton, says the wasp can pick up scents at a concentration of one part in a thousand billion - a hundred thousand times weaker than the lowest concentrations detectable by commercial "electronic noses".

It takes just a few minutes to train the wasps to detect a chemical threat. They are exposed to a very weak, non-toxic puff of the target chemical and, for the first three times, are given access to a bowl of sugary water as a reward. After that, the wasps will head for the source of the scent, says Torsten Meiners at the Free University of Berlin, who's been working with the team in Georgia.

The team has now trained the wasps to detect a range of neurotoxins and explosives and is working on a prototype handheld detector that would use the wasps as its "nose". The device works by sucking air samples through a short pipe into a cartridge containing a few wasps. If the wasps smell the target chemical, they dive down the pipe looking for its source. In the process, they break a beam of light inside the pipe, triggering an alarm.

Such a device could be carried into battle by soldiers to use as an early-warning system for chemical weapons attacks.

James Randerson
<hr>
So, if it works for tiny amounts of chemicals, perhaps pheromones? You could train your weapons to swarm on any target... Now wouldn't that be fun!

It seems this forum is rapidly becoming the place to be for things like this. Perhaps we should put a funding proposal together for the CIA? Ten million to spend on making deadly toys...

[Maverick]

Actually, there's a chemical attractant that you can buy at stores that's used with traps to attract wasps and hornets...
<small>[ November 05, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

Hi everyone, this is my first post so please be kind ;) . Ok first off I?m not sure if it's the same chemical attractant nbk was talking about but Banana Oil, which is commonly available in grocery stores, is, or mimics closely, the honey bee pheromone which bees use to alert other bees that their in danger (i.e. hive under attack type stuff).

note: "Banana oil" is what they use for artificial banana flavoring. I don't think this stuff is actually in real bananas so i wouldn?t go smashing up bananas and chasseing after bees with them.

For all you chem people out there, the chemical is isoamyl acetate and can easily be synthesized (and regularly is in high school and college orgo classes). I'll get back to you with the synthesis later.

Anyway, my original idea on the subject was to soak a sponge in the stuff, put it in a tupperware with holes for ventilation, and duck tape the container to a remote control car thus providing me with my very own army of angry remote control bees. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet but i plan to fairly soon and will get back to you on the success/failure.

Also there have been a number of posts regarding the subject of insect anestitizeation. For long term storage cold would work best, but for short term stuff like dissections or draining/filling venom sacs, ether fumes are probably a better option.

As for natural poisons there are plenty of other things that are MUCH more toxic and easier to obtain. I wouldn't waste my time draining the venom sacs if you only wanted a potent poison.

Well, that?s my 2 cents.

[nbk2000]

If the little bastards are actually THAT sensitive, they'd have uses other than CW detection, thought that's good too.

Cash has a particular odor to it that dogs are able to detect. It's appartently the residual cocaine that contaminates most of the US currency that they sniff up.

So...train your wasps to sniff out cash/coke/meth, and take them for a walk through the corridors of public storage units. :)

Many times have cops found millions of dollars in cash and drugs in public storage units.

Hehehehe....let loose a huge swarm of cash sniffing wasps from downwind of a cash collection business (AKA Armored car company) like Brinks, and watch the doors fly open! :D

If a person had those little transponders that researchers attach to bees backs to follow them, you could let loose a trained swarm in isolated areas that are know to be popular for drug production labs or fields of "green" and follow them to the source of the "honey". ;)

As CW detectors, they might be useful for approaching your covert stash and detecting a leak before you're close enough to get zapped by your own shit, as they're far more sensitive than a chemical detector would be.

Wonder if they could be used as sentinels to warn of creeping piggies? Something like the lubricant oils on guns, or the polymers typically used in weapons stocks like kraton or ABS, would attract the bugged bugs, which are monitored by a computer that would alert when a concentration of the little bastards accumulated somewhere nearby, thus signalling possible intruders.

Mosquitoes zoom in on humans through octenol emitted from our skin, so that's possible cueing material.

[Jacks Complete]

I was thinking something like your last one, as they would be great "guards"!

I wonder if you could somehow train them the opposite way, aversion training? You could have them swarm on ANY human, except you. Only people wearing CKOne or something could get near...

Swarming on gun oil or cordite wouldn't be so hot when you came back from the range, though...

Have to think of something that the police wear that no-one else would - perhaps trace scents of Kevlar or Nomex?

Or perhaps train them to swarm on your "mark", and do the "injection with ricin" (or whatever) idea!

It would be interesting to see how the bodyguards reacted to that threat! ("Sir, you must put on your anti-bee suit! There could be some more around!") I doubt any politico would get (re)elected if they went pressing the flesh in a beekeeper suit.

[nbk2000]

I could see a child with phermone coated hands giving a big hug to a politico, children being above suspicion, just prior to a swarm of many thousands of lethal insects being released downwind.

The target, the scented devil spawn, and it's handler, are all taken out, resulting in a double cut-out from you. :)

Bodyguards would be worthless against an insect swarm. Too many, too small, too fast, too lethal. :D Plus, it's not the BG's would be capable of coherent thought as hundreds of insects were stinging the shit out of them. It'd be every man for himself and Devil take the hindmost. ;)

Body armor, pop-up shields, counter-snipers, perimeter security alarms, bomb-sniffing dogs, etc. etc...useless. MWAHAHAHA!

TRelying on the bugs not to attack a certain aversive smell would be suicide. What if the part of the scent that they are trained for is removed from the scent? What if CKone has some trace smell removed to save money, and its absence isn't detectable to a human, but is a big part of the scent that the bugs detect?

You'd be up shit creek without a paddle, my friend.

As to something the cops would have on them that you wouldn't...only thing I can think of would be a weapon and it's related oils and lubricants, as you'd know about the bugs sensitivity to such scents and would take steps to avoid getting them on you.

Oh....use the smell of CS and CN to train them, as piggies almost always have that on them, and it's not like you'd have any on hand, choosing much more lethal chemicals to use.

[Jacks Complete]

Good thinking. :)

The smell of coffee and donuts might work, too...

I was thinking of the aversion response as a mechanism for when all went to hell. You keep the same bottle of something (perhaps more specific than CKOne, which was just a for instance) so you can walk (fairly) calmly through the whole panic whilst everyone else is dropping to the ground. Great for the last stand escape.

SWAT teams might be too well covered for this to work fast, though. With a gas mask, body armour and so on, there probably isn't much exposed skin for "when insects attack" though.

Maybe just for the marked targets, then...

[atlas#11]

SWAT won't have much exposed skin but 9/10 people have a natural fear of bees and wasps. They would be distracted at the very least plus you would be shooting them through a smoke screen with thermals and your own home defenses would be in effect as well. The wasp swarm is perfect for that extra edge. Think of the horror, you, standing in the middle of a swarm of millions of deadly wasps, uneffected by them and maliciously laughing as your adversaries drop dead one by one.

As for the offensive use, Nbk's idea is great, afterwards they would have pheremone detection sniffers and insect repellant and all kinds of other things to try and avoid being stung but you could simply train your swarms to track the repellant and get them anyways, fool proof! Unless they wore protective suits they would be dead. It would be far less traceable than a bomb and much harder to deal with than a sniper.

For good measure, I would somehow train them to, after killing the target go nuts and attack everybody else near by. That should make it more entertaining to watch. I would love to see the headlines on that one :) .

[Jacks Complete]

That is a simple one! Train 1/3 of the wasps to go for the main target, and 2/3 for anyone who smells like fear!

Just tweak the proportions as you see fit. Train a few hundred to swarm on anyone dumb enough to open fire, for example.

[atlas#11]

Finding a way to train more than one of them will be key. With more than one if one stings the simulated target and the other does not then the one will be rewarded for nothing. you could build a device that trains them one at a time quickly and repeatedly that way you would generate a well trained army wrather than a random swarm in which only one will single out the target and the rest will go free for all.

I suggest a series of small mazes made from pvc tubinging with a small rubbery object with the scent on it as the simulated target to train them. Using the object to piss them off and make them sting it would be a good way to give them the idea that stinging = food then get them to track the scent through the cheap small maze and sting the target and give them some sugar water. Hmm, sounds like a good thing to try out. I will try this as a practicle joke(like stinging a single person once daily until he goes insane), and post results. It will be a while though. This could be done easily and it would be difficult for the target or the pigs to figure out why mother nature suddenly started hating them :D . catching the wasps this summer will be easy(engine starting fluid would freeze them enough no?) and keeping them in the freezer and releasing them from a small container while still frozen will be a snap. Now, if only I could find a scent that is always on this "target" then I will make his life miserable until my supply of blood thirsty wasps runs out.

[Skean Dhu]

I beleive NBK hinted at this a post or two ago, But Bees ,wasps and the like 'hunt' by pheremone(sp?) scents. When a victim is stung a chemical is released into the air that lets the other insects no that an intruder has been found, they are in effect 'lit up' similar to the way a laser guided bomb follows the laser point. All one would need to do is collect and concentrate the pheremone for their weapon of choice.

@Atlas-
All that needs to happen is for one bee to find its way around the uniform/protection of the SWAT member and then you'll have one angry bee buzzing around underneath all your clothing. That would be very distracting,

[nbk2000]

Go to a store that sells wasp traps and they'll likely have wasp lure liquid.

This is where I first got the idea, since the instructions say VERY clearly to AVOID getting ANY on you, lest you be attacked. :D

People may also wish to read the thread from the beginning, where this has already been mentioned. :mad:

And you DO NOT freeze the bugs. That kills them (again, as previously mentioned!).

Rather, you keep them LITERALLY on ice, in containers stored in an ice chest filled with ice. That's cold enough to immobilize them without killing them.

Imagine a few fake "beer" cans filled with lethal insects, in an ice chest, at a picnic or ralley where the target was at. ;)

[atlas#11]

Nbk, what insect did you freeze that died? I have had ants and one unidentified beetle in the freezer for over a year now and they thaw out and run around like their fresh out of the nest. Wasps can't take too much cold which is why they use ether to freeze the wasps in their nests. I supose their is a certian temperature that they can tolerate but still be immobile. It's not like their in short supply so testing can't hurt. Wasps do hybernate so they can go dormant for a long period. If I spot any I will try testing this, I know that grasshoppers will go in to a form of hybernation when put in the fridge over night for fishing bait. It's kind of funny, they just start moving very slowly after the first hour and when they try to jump they just fall off the twig.

[nbk2000]

Spiders.

I've also frozen roaches in solid cubes of ice, melted the ice, and watched them skitter off! :eek: Truly, they shall inherit the earth! ;)

I'd say that you'd want to get the insects just cool enough to keep them immobile, or at least very lethargic, without taking it any lower, to ensure maximum viability.

[atlas#11]

Freaking roaches! Yes I would have a hard time biting anyone with my body temp below 10C so I would call them safe If they could not move, not that I would hold them in my hand but safe from escaping. Yesterday afternoon I was poking around down behind my house and noticed that the groung for several yards was coated with spiders web. The little bastards had a city insulated from the cold and were catching ants and small flying insects by the thousands. It is dried out indicating that it has been their awhile but wherever you step atleast two little grey spiders will take off running. Who said they are incompatible? Some of them might be but these guys would have to be compaitble if they can live in this big web and not kill each other.
Unfortunatly, these are nonvenomus root spiders so are of no use as assasins but maby for a prank or something. If nothing else, it is entertaining to throw ants on to the web and watch them be pounced on by hundreds of brown spiders.

[vulture]

Are musquitos the only insects capable of transferring malaria? Or how bout the tse tse fly in africa?

[atlas#11]

I'm not sure, but if their was another insect capable of carrying it we would probably know about it by now. That would be great, leathal in one bite, and still look like an accident. Perhaps we could develop some form of streptocaccus to be carried by our wasps and have it immune to antibiotics so it just develops in to scarlet fever and they die. It would look like some dumb kid slacked off on his penicilin pills and the strep grew immune and then he got stung and the wasp gave it to him, even if they were suspicious, it's not like they can get any proof off of a smashed wasp if you do your job well. Maby the next time it starts going around I'll stock up on penicilin and take some cultures. I would have done this already but I lack the equipment to keep myself out of harms way. This could be developed to be non lethal and make a great weapon of war(it's hard to aim when your vomiting your guts out). But honestly, who wants it to be non leathal?