MCX, the Triple Threat agent

[nbk2000]

While we were down, I had time to do some further research into the use of chemical agents during the Waco Seige.

An interesting bit of info came up in a lawsuit by one of the survivors against the feds. This was info about the toxic effects of DCM/MC (dichloromethane/methylene chloride) when combined with CS and fire.

MC is a very potent, fast-acting inhalation general anesthesia agent, nearly on a par with Halothane, the most potent agent currently used in surgical anesthesia.

The narcotic effects of MC follow a pattern. Anyone caught in the spray itself would experience tachycardia and possibly cardiac arrest. MC is known to sensitize the heart, particularly if the person is already under stress or fearful.

In the case of most inhalation general anesthetics this effect is most pronounced if the person experiences a rapid change in the air concentration--partial pressure of the compound--of the agent. As the MC/CS cloud expanded within the building anyone exposed would experience difficulty in breathing due to the CS.

The MC, being a potent anesthetic agent, would tend to alleviate the pain as narcosis set in and the brain began to shut down. It has been shown that a concentration of 0.46% (volume) in inhaled air will eliminate spontaneous movement, leaving the victims unable to flee to fresh air, leaving them trapped in a toxic atmosphere.

MC is flammable in a vapor concentration greater than 12-14%. It is generally considered nonflammable so long as it is used in well-ventilated areas or in the open air. But within the confines of a building, the immediate area of release would be too rich in fuel (MC) to combust. This bubble of gas would then expand, getting mixed with more oxygen until it reached its flammibility range. At this point, if there's an ignition source, the vapor will ignite in a flash fire.

During combustion, both chemicals involved produce toxic smoke. CS generates hydrogen cyanide (an asphyxiant), while MC generates hydrogen chloride and chlorine (both corrosive edema inducers). Both give copious amounts of carbon monoxide (asphyxiant).

DCM itself is decomposed by the liver in CO, which impairs blood oxygenation. When combined with an oxygen deficient atmosphere, toxic gases, respiratory stressors (CS/HCl/CL₂), and greatly increased oxygen demand caused by the fight or flight response, it can be predicted with a high level of confidence that the target will expire from lack of oxygen. :)

If the gas doesn't ignite, it'll continue to dilute to below it's igniton range, but will still be powerfully irritating and incapacitating.

(BTW, dogs are used for testing anesthetics since they're very similar to humans in response and dosages. Something to keep in mind when testing such things. :) )

Oh, and MC is also a solvent for many CW agents, such as H, CX, G and V series, etc. This would be preferable for high stakes attacks. I'll refer to such a MC/CW mix as MCX.

Envisioned uses would be to use as an adjunct to conventional attack such as fragmentation weapons. A suicide bomber could have his bombs on his chest, with the MCX in a plastic bag on his back in a knapsack or such. When he exploded, his body would absorb the flame, preventing premature ignition, but the shrapnel would penetrate and disperse the MCX over the scene.

As the survivors are recovering from the initial shock, they're being anesthetized or confused by the MC, making them more likely to remain exposed to the X for a longer period of time, increasing its effectiveness.

This would also complicate rescue efforts since the first responders would also be hindered by the MC, requiring use of protective equipment to avoid falling victim themselves, thus increasing response times/possibly taking out trained personnel/and increasing terror.

Also, MC penetrates and irritates the skin, increasing its permeability to other agents.

As the vapor cloud expanded, it could flash fire on any ignition source, spreading the fire must faster than it would by normal spread. The flashfire would then create the toxic combustion products in addition to any additional trauma by thermal effects.

Even after a flashfire, there'd still be uncombusted MCX remaining to contaminate the scene.

Given all these factors, I believe MCX would be more effective than a neat CW agent in a small scale attack because of the synergistic effects.

<img src="http://www.itcilo.it/english/actrav/telearn/osh/kemi/scan/sandh6.gif" alt=" - " />

:D

In a conventional style bombing, a container of the material could be placed outside of the initial fireball radius so that it'll be shattered by fragmentation/blast with no risk of premature ignition from the fireball.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

<a href="http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:qjqwqXuHpOAC:ehis.niehs.nih.gov/roc/ninth/rahc/dichloromethane.pdf+dichloromethane&hl=en&ie=UTF-8" target="_blank">http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:qjqwqXuHpOAC:ehis.niehs.nih.gov/roc/ninth/rahc/dichloromethane.pdf+dichloromethane&hl=en&ie=UTF-8</a>

When DCM is heated to decomposition it emits highly toxic fumes of phosgene gas.

[Polverone]

Have you worked with DCM before? I've never inhaled such a high vapor concentration that I found it irritating, nor have I felt myself growing lightheaded or otherwise feeling that that the chemical was affecting me. Now granted, I wasn't in a confined space where DCM had just been explosively dispersed. But if it takes, say 0.25% DCM in air to affect humans in a short period of time, and your hypothetical attacker sets his device off in a room that is 10x10x3 meters in size, and the ambient temperature is 20 degrees Celsius (say, this is starting to sound like a textbook story problem...), then about 2.6 kg of DCM need to be instantly vaporized without decomposition to reach the 0.25% air concentration.I don't know how easily one could accomplish this with explosives. There obviously needs to be much, much more DCM in the air for the vapor mixture to be flammable. DCM vapor is heavier than air and there aren't any people hanging on the ceiling anyway, so you probably don't need to take the full 3 meter height of the room into consideration, except that the air will likely be in a turbulent state and distribute the vapor throughout the whole room, not just near the floor.

DCM is inexpensive and readily available, true, but from personal experience it just doesn't seem potent enough to justify it taking up valuable mass/space in your hypothetical bomber's payload.

[nbk2000]

I haven't deliberately inhaled DCM, no, but I have chloroform, which is less potent, and found it rather dizzying on brief exposures.

Now it would take a bit of it to establish a suitable concentration, maybe too much for a suicide bomber to carry. But, then again, I have the feeling that too many of the suicide bombers are using poorly designed weapons. Too much explosive is being used. You don't need a huge blast to propel fragments at lethal velocity.

If they used less explosive (a rare commodity in their situation), and made what explosive used more effective by complicating escape and rescue of the wounded, they might start upping the body count.

Also, decomposition isn't a real problem, as long as it isn't all burned up in an instant by the explosives fireball. Some decomposition would indeed be desirable because of the toxic byproducts of such decomposition.

Vehicles would have no carry weight restrictions and, given the ready availability of DCM in civilized countries, could be a "poor mans" CW agent when used with a car bomb in a confined area such as a crowded street or underground parking lot during a mall holiday rush.

[MrSamosa]

I don't think that excessive amounts of DCM will be necessary for such an application. What we are not considering right now is the average man's response to such an attack.

When a person here's a big *BANG*, sees people getting torn apart by shrapnel, is himself knocked over, what does he do? The fight or flight mode kicks in and the adrenal starts pumping. The heart starts to beat faster, and that means you have to breathe faster to support it. Therefore, should there be a chemical agent about, you're breathing a lot more of it faster. On another note, should people try to run away, that means they breathe faster as well. This was the mistake many soldiers made at Ypres during WW1 when they were first exposed to Chlorine- they tried to run. They never made it very far because of their faster breathing. Of course, the Ypres attack used considerably more of the gas than a suicide bomber would. However, for a conventional bombing, this idea could most certainly be applied.

EDIT: on a side note, I downloaded a 35 chapter Army Textbook dealing with the response, rescue, cleanup, and treatment following a Chemical or Biological strike. 50megs.com won't let me upload the zipfile because it is "too big." It is really only 4.6 mb, and a decent read. I think that it would be a good idea to know the ways of your adversary when you are planning to beat them...so if anyone wants to host it for me... :)

<small>[ December 05, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[Anthony]

MrSamosa, upload it to ctrl_c's FTP

[nbk2000]

If you still have the URL for that file, you could post it here. Though I'm assuming you'd have done that already if you still had it, correct?

Also, while it's possibly (or maybe even likely) that most of the people would be able to flee before being exposed long enough to be incapacitated by the DCM anethesia, though not likely escaping the X agent exposure, the same can't be said for the injured who are too fucked up to flee the scene.

They're the ones who are going to be snuffed out (RTPB No survivors). And, one could even say that using DCM in a weapon is, in fact, being human and merciful, since those too injured to flee were likely to die anyways. In fact, you're given them a merciful death by anesthetizing them, much like you'd put an old dog to sleep. :)

Also, DCM has a pretty fast knock-down effect, able to render active adults unconcious in less than 20 seconds (according to the lawsuit info). Maybe if it was combined with HCN rather than a less active CW agent, it would drop people dead in their tracks.

Also, I could see using neat DCM in a sprayer (like MACE) for capturing someone alive (hopefully). Spray 'em in the kisser and watch them drop like a sack o' potatos. :D

[Agent Blak]

Now we are talking...

In a video I watched ont he History of ninjitsu they speak briefly about a chemical compound used to incapaciatate the mark; It was a powder thrown in to the face. Never said what it was.

The ablity to knock someone out consistantly and instantly is a big plus.

[nbk2000]

There's a very real risk of killing your target with DCM. In massive doses, like they'd get being sprayed in the face with it, their hearts could stop, CNS damage, or hyperthermic reaction could induce an uncontrolable fever that burn their brains up into a vegetative state.

So, while it MAY be used to capture someone, I'd only use it if the possibility of capturing them alive is needed, but dead's OK too.

It might even be useful as a lethal weapon with rapid knock-down, like HCN, only without the extreme toxicity that could endanger you as well. DCM needs more than .1% volume in air to begin having effects, whereas HCN is lethal at &gt;.15oz/1,000CFT, orders of magnitude more potent.

Spray them in the face, step back, let them pass out or become incapable of defending themselves, then finish them off.

Not directly related, yet similar, is a robber who's jacked a couple of stores in my local area. He poses as a customer, gets a cup of HOT coffee, goes the register to pay for it, and when the drawer is open, throws the scalding hot coffee in the cashiers face and grabs the money drawer.

One clerks been blinded, another hasn't, but both have 3rd degree burns on their face and neck.

This attack method isn't new, but it reinforces the reasoning behind my personal routine of dumping all coffee as soon as I get on shift. Thus there is NO hot liquids in the store to throw at me. :p Only soda. And anyone who throws a cup of soda on me is getting Romper Stompered with my steel toe boots. :D

[MrSamosa]

Have you considered Fluorocarbons? Although they don't cause the same knock-out action as Chloroform or DCM, they can still be CNS depressants. It is generally not very flammable, like DCM, but in certain concentrations in the air can be burned. In addition to the usual Carbon Oxides formed from burning, Hydrogen Fluoride and Carbonyl Fluoride are also formed. The latter is particularly nasty; more toxic than Phosgene and a more severe lachrymator. Furthermore, Fluorocarbons such as 1,1-Difluoroethane and Tetrafluoroethane are readily available for the purpose of dusting off computer hardware. They come in convenient compressed air cans. Perhaps a small charge taped to the can could be used to puncture it and thus spread the chemical around to a dangerous concentration. At that point, a secondary charge could start a fire, which would cause the Fluorocarbon's breakdown to even deadlier chemicals.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

1,1,1,2- Tetrafluoroethane is indeed used in those PC Duster cans...

Strictly for purpouses of scientific research... I inhaled a lungful of 50% TFE and air. Similar to a weak nitrous high - about 20s of just a really fucked up light headed feeling. Impaired balance, memory, hearing etc... Increased heart rate was also noticed.

So... I tried a lungful of straight TFE. Like a nitrous high but not.... as good. Incapacitated for sure... I tried to run - mimicing a panic situation - and got about 10 steps before falling on my face with a big ass grin :D

Thus, in an enclosed environment I believe that tetrafluoroethane could be used as something to 'slow people down' or something... though out in the open very large amounts would be needed.

I tried spraying myself in the face, and taking a breath, but all I received was a slight 'buzz'. So it wouldnt be too effective for that route of administration.

I have not experimented with a continuous flow of this stuf (...suicide...) though I am sure it COULD have some definite knockdown abilities. Or atleast sufficient confusion.

TFE is not flammable... on the can it has a label with "non flammable gas under pressure"

The amounts required of this substance are quite noticeably less than nitrous oxide to gather similar effects... though i would recommend N2O as a recreational substance - apparently extended inhalation of TFE can cause liver problems (probably not much more than the odd binge :D )

No negative after effects were noticed in any 'experiments'. All effects wore off by the 5 minute mark.

[Boob Raider]

I have can of Poly super Strippa made by LePage. In first aid area of the label it states it contains DCM/MC and methanol and on the front it says it is non-flammable. It also contains a gelling agent. So since it is non-flammable, methanol content could be low. On the other hand, I tried smelling the stripper and registering an odor of DCM, it has a very mild odor and doesn't smell like CHCl3, but I didn't feel a thing as far anesthising goes, I feel more woozy when I am dismanteling Li batteries.