foxglove Digitalis

[panthatar]

im not sure if i should post yet but i was wondering if anyone has thought of the use of flox glove sap as a poison as an improvised weapon iv been interested in plan poisions for the simple fact its esay to get seeds for alot of them and its esay to extract the oils and sap from them and they are lethal.
id like any imput as to plant poisions that are as readily esay to get from a nursary in seed form just like foxglove

[VX]

Yeah ,I’ve considered it a lot. It I actually wanted to poison someone/ thing that is the way that I would go. I would not use the sap though, I would extract pure the toxin itself, most plant toxins are alkaloids and these can all be extracted using one common method which is not too demanding.... Could be a nice way to spend a Sunday afternoon :) . My garden and the whole surrounding area to me is now covered in flowering foxglove.
Look <a href="http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~boogaar1/ganeralalkaloidextraction.htm" target="_blank">here</a> here for how to extract alkaloids. (This is not the best site, I was looking at a realy good one the other day, but I can't seem to find it now. The method is about the same though. It's just that some sites go into a lot more of the theory of why it works, I like that. Anyway I’m in a rush now (got to go to work :( ), search google for several good pages. This same method can also be used to seperate pure caffine from tea bags/ coffiee.

Edit: spelling

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: VX ]</small>

[cutefix]

Ricin from castor bean plant is a likely candidate...

[MrSamosa]

Ricin (Castorbean, Ricinus Communis) and Abrin (Rosary-beads) are both good plant toxins. Once you have extracted the toxin from these seeds, mixing them in with some Carbon Tetrachloride makes a good Aerosol Spray...

You can try Oleander plants, they have Cyanogen Glycosides in all parts. There are countless other plants that have Strychine or Atropine in them. Many mushrooms are extremely toxic as well.

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Newbie posting a new topic, wrong section, raping the english language, semi-illiterate... :rolleyes:

What ELSE could you do to get banned? I don't know, but you're not going to get the chance to show me because you're out of here! :p

[VX]

The mushrooms are extremely interesting as many mushroom toxins are actually proteins. These inhibit RNA polymerase B and hence protein synthesis.

I discussed this in detail not to long ago in another thread

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: VX ]</small>

[Mick]

he has posted it in the right section.

Battlefield Chemistry
Discussion of the synthesis and procurement, of non-explosive agents including poisons, chemical weapons, riot gasses, and biological agents.

i really think that was a bit unfair, at least his first post created some discussion that was at least interesting and intelligent.

granted his spelling was a bit fucked, but mine isn't exactly a beacon of shining light at times.

could have given him a warning.

but, your the mod, so i suppose its up to you :D

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Mick ]</small>

[Jumala]

Foxglove is very often to find and very poisonous but aconitum napellus (blauer Eisenhut, free translated = blue ironhad)is the most poisonous plant (in Europe) and it is a often used as ornamental plant in parks and gardens. Contact with your skin can be enough for the first weak poisoning symptoms.

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Jumala ]</small>

[FragmentedSanity]

Correct me if Im wrong - but wasnt foxglove used as a heart medication in times long gone? I know its a poison but Id assume that the lethal dose would have to be kinda high - but as suggested alkaloid extraction would be a good way to go.
Does anyone know if that would work on Deadly Nightshade? (atropine is the main toxin in this) and could a simple water extract (boiling the berries and reducing to a syrupy conscistancy) work.
Are there any good books on the subject? and more importantly does anyone have some to load onto the FTP - it seems a lot of people are interested in natural toxins - prehaps that could be the subject for a future "special project"
If we had a good document on the topic I at least would find it useful :)
A good reference that some may not have thought of is "Legal Highs"
The document is aimed at using plants to get high obviously - but the thing to remeber is that most of the substances can be fatal if enough is given. In some its a fine line between bizzare psychadelic experiences and agonizing death (things like belladonna etc.)
Mushrooms are very interesting in this field. One in particular - Im not sure of the name tho and dont have time to look it up right now - but i think it was as simple as heartstopper or something similar. the interesting part was that death came suddenly 3 days after ingestion - by which time all traces of the toxin have been flushed from the body leaving the autopsy to reveal nothing but a heart attack.
later
FS

[nbk2000]

Mick, you're a day late and dollar short. This topic didn't start out here, but was rather MOVED here by me.

And you're right, as admin, banning someone IS up to me. To me, anyone who can't capitalize the letter "I" when referring to themselves is a stupid bugger who deserves a good reaming.

Alkaloids are good poisons only because of their ready availability. However, they'tre readily detectable in any decent tox-screen. Protein poisons are much better because they degrade into common components in the body, complicating detection.

Poisons like ricin or coneshell venom are proteins,

Digitalis used to be used as a heart medication. Still is in synthetic form.

[Machiavelli]

Digitalis alkaloids are still used as heart medication, but alternatives are prefered as the gap between therapeutic and toxic doses is very narrow.

Eisenhut is definitly a good candidate for a humanicide, the only possible problem is that the active alkaloid, Aconitin is not that stable, it's easily hydrolized. The english name is Monkshood and Stanfield would call it Aconit Napel :)
Toxic doses of the plant starts at 0.2g, for the alkaloid itself it starts at about 1 mg cutaneous!
The alkaloid content seems to peak during winter.

Unfortunately I don't know a good english reference book for toxic plants, but you might want to check out a university library or ask a toxicologist.

For our German members I highly recommend "Giftpflanzen-Pflanzengifte", it's the best book on the subject I've ever read, covers pretty much everything, has chemical data for all alkaloids, 1090 pages and at 21 euros it's dirt cheap. So if you're interested in toxic plants get this book! Info from amazon.de:
<a href="http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3933203317/qid=1026304078/sr=8-1/ref=sr_aps_prod_1_1/028-2342736-8506104" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3933203317/qid=1026304078/sr=8-1/ref=sr_aps_prod_1_1/028-2342736-8506104</a>

[Boob Raider]

Actually ..... Digitalis and related toxins are glucosides (digitoxin, digitonnin etc.). I am pretty sure they paralyze the heart if OD'ed.
Strychnine is a kick ass alkaloid. Road side vets in India used to use it to put dogs to sleep (dead in 3-4 mins). Over stimulation paralyzes the nervous system.
Angel's Trumpet aka Thorn Apple, Jimson Weed, I think if not the common names of same plant they r common name of closely related species of Datura. The contain varying amounts of atropine, daturine, hyoscyamine, scopolamine(an anesthetic) and a shit load of other alkaloids in minute amounts.
Also another candidate is Amanita phalloides aka the death cup aka death angel is a very toxic mushroom. The alkaloid amanitine and others are potent hepatotoxins. There are a shit load of fungi out there which could kill (potency varies a lot) oh and hallucinogenic fungi rock :D
Anatoxin is one alkaloid which I think is comparable to saxitoxin and it can be isolated from Anabaena flos aquae and/or Aphanizomenon flos aquae. Although I am still looking for the algae.
I have pics but I don't know how to post them. Their on my Hard Drive.

[Cricket]

I have always thought a good way to kill some one would be by milking a poisonous snake (Tipan would be good, or a Corral snake since it takes up to 12 hours for symptoms to appear) and puting it into them. The delivery would be tough. I think the best would be to buy/steal one of those monkey tranqulisers and fill it up with the refrigerated venom and shoot it from a blow gun (they make slow rifle rounds too). But conventional drugs could be a fine choise too, to make it it look like an OD or drug suicide. Acid (LSA/LSA) would be good I think, very potent. Just extract/purify it from the street drug and put in coffee or like the venom, in a blowgun. Just a couple thoughts...

[pyromaniac_guy]

cricket,
how would hitting someone with a tranq dart filled with poison look like a drug od? If the particular venom you refer to takes 12 hours to affect a person, dont you think it would stand to reason that your average person would say "fuck i've just been hit by a blow gun dart... i better report it and see what i've just been injected with" if you use something fast acting, like a massive drug OD, then unless you hit the person with a dart in a place where one normally shoots up, it's not going to look like an intentional suicide or an od [ie people who commit suicide, dont OD by shooting up a syringe full of heroine into the middle of their back]. Finally, if you do use something fast acting, then you have to go to the scene of the crime and swipe the dart, otherwise it will be a very obvious piece of evidence suggesting it wasnt an od...

Halfway decent idea the snake bite venom, but as far as delivery goes, you might as well just use a gun, walk up to your target, and blast um...

I think a slightly more realistic aproach would be to get your target high, or very drunk... bring them out to a nature trail where poisonous snakes are known to live, and inject um with the snake venom from a syringe. Obviously it will help if you study photos of snake bites, and try and make the injection site look like this (ie multiple puncture wounds).. the person would have to be f'ed up enough to be totally helpless, ie TOTALLY drunk, roofies maybe, ect... You dont want them walking out to get help, tell the authorities what you did... nor do you want to put them anywhere TOO remote... if the body seriously decomposes or is mauled by scavengers, all the evidence of your painstakingly faked 'natural' death will be erased....

then again, even this is a highly far fetched scenario... and it requires you to have intimate acess to your target...

[Chade]

Ahhh, deady nightshade. You can't beat it. What else conjures up such romantic images?

Just me then?

OK. But it's still kinda groovy. The active ingrediant is an alkaloid called Solanine, a glycoside.
in small doses, it's medicinal (for epilepsy, amongst other things) in moderate doses, it's hallucinogenic, and was used in greek bacchanals and orgies. In large enough doses, it's fatal. Symptoms seem to vary, but always include nausea. One report even claimed victims lost the ability to speak when poisoned. Potentially useful, no? Symptoms generally occur after 8-12 hours, but your stomach is empty, on average, 6 hours after eating a good meal. this means the nausea won't help you vomit up the solanine.
Solanine is a neurotoxin which, obviously, attacks the central nervous system. It inhibits your productions of acetylcholinesterase, an enzyme that breaks down Acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter.

All well and good, but here's the cool part. Solanine occurs in most of the plants in the nightshade family (Solanaceae). The nightshade family includes potatoes. Remember your mum telling you not to eat green potatoes? That's why. The alkaloid is found in the green part of the potato plant. Just bury some in the back yard until they grow. A new shoot can contain a lethal dose of Solanine. Not likely, but that stat is often quoted as a warning for safety purposes.
Even regular potatoes contain Solanine, but you'd need over thirty to do you in (at 160ilb, with medium sized potatoes).

Solanine also occurs in the following little gems: Aubergine, Cayenne, Chilli, Green and red peppers, Paprika, Tomato
Green tomatoes work like green potatoes. Multiple poisoning at the whistle stop cafe anyone?
Clearly, deadly nightshade (Atropa Belladonna) is your best bet for ease of extraction, but no-one will bat an eyelid if you're growing spuds. very few people know how deadly they can be. most animals have the sense not to touch them, but there's reported cases of poisonings in ducks and horses.

It's a white crystalline bitter tasting substance: C45 H73 N O15
http://grandfinale.at.infoseek.co.jp/solanine.htm
It's not easily absorbed by your intestines, but it is easily removed and doesn't accumulate in your tissues. After hitting your bloodstream, it will mostly be gone within 12 hours. If you survive, that is. Your gut also contains bacteria that hydrolyse Solanine into a safer form. If it were not for all these defence mechanisms, the lethal dose would be far lower. LD = 590 mg/kg

Now, there have been reported cases of Solanine poisoning when making tea from tomato leaves. I'm guessing if you had left that tea in an evaporating dish, you'd be left with a residue that contained high levels of Solanine. I guess one could opt for drying out peeled green potato skins, along with shoots, stalks and leaves from blooming potato plants, then boiling them for a while and evaporating down the resulting solution.

On a side note, if I were ever to use a plant based poison (not that I would, I'm a lovely person), I'd go for Death cap or Destroying Angel toxins. (Yes, I know a fungi isn't a plant, but you get the idea.)
90% fatality rate, but the bugger of it is that spending a day as sick as a dog, you think you've got better, only to find out a little later that your kidneys don't work anymore. Whoops!

[edit - added useful link]

Just found this site that give details of the extraction using Ammonia and Ethanol. More importantly, it offers Solanum dulcamara seed for sale.
http://www.aros.net/~lambo/dulcamara/dulcamara01.htm

[wrench352]

I have foxglove,nightshade,jimsonweed even a little cannabis growing wild down here especially the nightshade.tons of it down by the railroad track near my house

[knowledgehungry]

Arent you lucky, do you also have lots of wildlife or stray animals, if so you could be very useful, testing methods of extraction and delivery on animals, then you could weigh the corpses and approximate the lethal dose per Kg.

[Sparky]

Deadly nightshade is a weed around here too.

Chade, you keep mentioning growing your own potatoes to get the Solanine. If it occurs in green potatoes then there is no reason to wait a whole season to get them. Just buy a bunch and leave them out in the bright sun for a while to make them plenty green. Even a bucket of potatoes left out in the sun for a few hours will render them unedible. I don't know why this happens or if it would be more effective cutting up the potatoes first to give more surface area exposed to the sun.

[Al Nobel]

Just a sidenote on nightshade plants: one of their psycoactive alkaloides scopolamin was used by the US army as an truth drug. Hyosciamus niger and datura stramanium contain this alkaloid.

So my question is how to extract this alkaloid out of the plants? It´s easy to extract all alkaloids out of a plant to poison someone, but I don´t know how to isolate one of them.

My problem is that I don´t need all the other psycoactive substances as hyoscamin,cause a mix of the psycoactive parts would only cause a "nice" trip/dead to the victim. This mix is still usefull cause the LD and the dose you need to endrug a person are quite the same. So if you want to stop/kill a person it´s still usefull. To make a long story short any help would be appreciated, cause I have access to most of the interesting nightshade plants.

[wrench352]

first to Al,yes theres plenty of critters to test on here-there aint much worse than a feral cat.part of my job is to clar this stuff out of the paddocks so horses dont get at them.I'm told one berry from deadly nightshade can kill a horse.there about the size of a pea,purple when ripe.
second about the scoplamine-the jimson weed is full of it sometimes kids eat the seeds to trip.But I have heard its not very pleasant.currently theres some kind of south american psychotrope going around the Orlando area.botannical in nature,cant remember the name,again not very pleasant.I heard about it as a warning on the news,only one in ten who try it come back for more.

[nbk2000]

Fractional liquid chromatography would be the way to go. :)

Go to polverone's website, and you'll find some SciAm AmSci files on chromatography that I gave him, and you should be able to get started from there. ;)

You'll also need to find a reagent that will give you a color indication with the alkaloid that you wish to extract. Then, after you've collected your elution fractions, you can use a spot plate to test a drop from each one till you find the ones that have your desired alkaloids, than process just those fractions to collect the solid alkaloid. :D

Another possible way to ID the fractions would be by using a polariscope to determine the degree of rotation caused by the various organic components in the solvent, though that may be too complex to start with.

Where I'm at, there are none of these type of plants, so if I had the money for the equipment, I'd be happy to do the work of extracting the alkaloids in exchange for getting the plants sent to me in the first place. :D

[bobo]

The green potatoes may contain some poison, but are not the berries of the potato plant the most dangerous part?

[wrench352]

NBK I have found a good quantity of foxglove and several specimens of deadly nightshade.I think the deadly nightshade is out of season though because the buds have yet to set.I think it would be another month till they have ripe berries.I dont have any need for the extract but dont mind contributing to your research.I will drop you a line when they're ready if you want.How much will you need for research.It will not take long to find an unlimited supply.
While on my nature walk I was thinking that nobody would last long under interrogation with combination scoplamine/electroshock.A person would very quickly breakdown.I have'nt seen jimson weed lately but I have seen it here before.

[Chade]

I've been doing some research into this and, god help me, I've started getting fascinated by Solanine. (I'm a bit of a science geek) I'm currently asking around various government agencies (UK) to ask whether it's legal to extract small quantities of solanine, and prescicely what the laws are. I imagine I'll probably get blocked at some point, given that I'm only an amateur scientist, but even if I do I'll be able to relay what the laws are, so at least everyone else here will be more informed.

I could just do it, but I don't fancy getting caught with any quantity of refined poison, just in case. I guess one of our US forumites would be better placed to investigate the legalities over there, although I think they'd vary by state. So far the environment agency has passed me onto the food standards agency, and the health and safety executive. They'll quite possibly also required me to check with Defra as well. (If only I had a lawyer to ask!) I'll post if I get a useful reply, as I think some people would be interested in the legalities of extracting poisons and plant alkaloids.

My planned experiment was to grow a bunch of potato plants and test the solanine levels at various points to tell what parts had highest concentrations and what affected Solanine production. My idea is that, just as certain conditions tend to yellow plants, or make them more green, (influence chlorophyll production) varied conditions would affect solanine production (perhaps independantly?). This would of course apply, in some way, to all nightshades.

Somewhat oddly, the LD 50 I gave (for rats - 590 mg/kg) seems to bear little resemblance to anything. Mice, for example, can eat twice their dose without any lethality, but humans have a lethal dose of 3-6 mg/Kg. What the hell's up with that? We really seem out of luck when it comes to our ability to resist Solanine. Our lethal dose seems about a twentieth of theirs and that's only if we eat ours, and you inject theirs directly into their abdomen (IP LD50 = 67-75 mg/kg). Just goes to show, we should ban animal testing. Not for ethical reasons, just because it's shit.

To Bobo, I wasn't sure about what you'd said, hence my idea for a little experimentation, but from the link at the bottom of this post, they cite an example of berries having 0.45mg/g glycoalkaloid (I can only guess whether this random sample of potato berries was representative) while an example of peel had 1.4 to 1.5 mg/g. That's far more as a percentage in the peel, and you can get more of it. I've yet to investigate the levels in various other parts of the plant.

To Sparky, You're dead right that if you want Solanine in a hurry, that's definately the way to go. I'm not in a hurry, and I'll find potato plants easier to explain that a set of potatoes left in the sun. (I suppose you could follow Anthony's/Holly's example and claim they're keeping you sane?)
Cutting up the potatoes shouldn't make too much difference, as you'd probably just use the peel which contains 30-80 percent of the active ingredient. I'm not sure whether the solanine is only produced by the skin, or throughout, so I can't say whether it'd speed production in the flesh of the potato, but it wouldn't help the peel.

NBK took the words right out of my mouth when he mentioned chromatography. I was going to try column chromatography, as I think it's more useful for getting larger quantities out of a material. The columns can be inches in diamater, but the bigger they get, the longer they take to pack. There is, however, a german patent (which I'm still translating) that gives details of an extraction using 0.1-20% acetic acid (so vinegar should work) followed by treatment by a protease. Trouble is isolating which protease they mean, and seeing it it's available. (a few proteases, for example in winemaking, are OTC. If it's not a method that can be crowbarred into a home lab like yours and mine, The best method is the one in the other link I've provided.

The Potato has two toxic agents, both anticholinesterase agents. This is their defence mechanism. Any bugs try to suck on a potato plant, and they get left with a nasty old aftertaste.
The glycoalkaloids are Solanine and Chaconine, both present in the plant as salts in a ratio of 2:3 respectively. In the German patent, the acetic acid converts the salts to solanine and chaconine.

The salts are water soluble, and so you can simply peel the potatoes, and dry the peel. Then powder it* and add water. You can boil it without lowering Solanine levels (as several ill or dead people who tried too cook the badness out of green spuds found out!) and then filter it off. You get a crude glycoalkaloid by: "Precipitation with ammonia at a pH above 10 at 70oC" This gets a toxic mix of glycoalkaloids including the two we want.

Although there is no data for chaconine solubility (possibly because it's not known?) the review I've linked to tells us, very helpfully, that Solanine is practically insoluble in water, ether and chloroform, but readily soluble in hot alcohol. (I presume they mean ethanol, not just any old alcohol) So this provides us with an excellent method to get hold of some solanine. Wash the precipitate with water, ether and chloroform. That should remove most impurities, ready for column chromatography (if it's even needed by that point) These last two are not everyday solvents, but the synthesis is often discussed on elsewhere on the forum. I'd probably end with a column chromatography step in my experiment to make sure my analysis was more accurate. I'll start with something like a glass column filled with chalk, using an ethanol solvent. The review gives details of other chromatography methods including TLC, but I'm personally going to try my own way before I attempt to get hold of the monosodium phosphate and ethyl actate I'll need for that.

This whole method could be tweaked a little for most plant alkaloids, once you know what they're soluble in. I'll feel quite safe experimenting with small amounts of Solanine. (although I'll do it in my fume hood, just for the hell of it) mostly because it's not chronic or carcinogenic (about the only thing that isn't!) so if you don't die, or get really close to dying, you should make a full recovery quickly from any exposure.

*(segue: This totally reminds me of the old crapbook notion of smoking dried banana leaves. Solanine does work as a hallucinogen, although it'll make you sick as a dog if you take that much. Maybe the old banana skin idea was someone trying out a different fruit and something got mixed up along the way?)

The best Solanine link I've found:
http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExecSumm/ChaconineSolanine.html
Click the index at the bottom of that page to get a very detailed breakdown on solanine. Includes LD50 for a large range of animals, and accounts of human solanine poisoning.

The german patent for solanine extraction: DE10060512

[nbk2000]

No buearacrat will approve your experiments in extracting poisons from potatos.

Why?

Well, what if you did get permission, and proceeded to use the poison on your neighbors, killing several. Who's on the hook for giving you the OK? Ahhhh....that right, the official, who's career and pension are things of the past.

That's why it'll never happen.

Oh, and just by even asking, you've likely put yourself on the short list of people to round up as "potential terrorists" when the pols next need to coverup a SNAFU on their part by diverting public attention with some highly publicized "terrorist" arrests.

Not that any real terrorist would seek permission in the first place, but you know that reality has nothing to do with a pols career. ;)

Also, I don't think solanine a very effective poison, requiring a quarter gram for the average human adult male. Things like aconitine can kill with just a few milligrams. But if you can manage to extract it, more power to you, though asking permission in these times of hysterical knee-jerk reactions is asking for a Bubba'ing. :D

[anthracis]

Well, you've probably heard of aflatoxin right? The toxin produced by certain species of mold (Aspergillus flavus mainly)......It could prove a "silent killer". There is a great deal of information regarding this subject on the web. Below some quick links:

http://www.highfiber.com/~galenvtp/vtlafltx.htm
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/bw_ii/bw_tabf.htm
http://www.usda.gov/gipsa/newsroom/backgrounders/b-aflatox.htm

We are lucky that only good people are reading these posts...:o

[bloodbob]

Incase anyone is interested in similar toxins to what this topic was started on the oleander produces variey similar toxins that also act on the sodium channel in the heart.

[akinrog]

In my opinion Digitalis series plant extracts digitoxin, digitonin, etc. are best for poisioning since they are not alkoloids but (cardiac) glicosides. The latter makes them hard to analitically determine. But in case of alkoloids their metabolization products are easy to identify and its sympthoms are like poisioning. However when digitalis derivatices are ingested, they cause a heart attack at a dose of only 30 mg (maybe wrong about the dose).

I don't know if this is crap, but many secret agents or intelligence personnel are said to carry digitaline tablets to suicide or kill other people since poisioning only causes a deadly heart attack and its metabolizing products cannot be identified by analitic methods. In case of a person who is middle aged and smoking, the most probably death indictment shall be normal death.

Once I had several links to extract digitalis cardiac glicosides. If I can find them again, I shall post them here.

Hope this helps.

[ossassin]

Besides the potatoes, are any good plants found in the US? If so, in which regions are they found? All of the plants so far sound like they come from Europe. Thanks.

[grandyOse]

ossassin; tobacco and datura stramonium are as American as chevrolet. reSEARCH.

[ShadowAlchemist]

It may be a good thing that i "cant" create new threads seeing as the conditions for being Be-HED'ed are quite comprehensive; So this space will do me fine :)
As a full time distiller/part time alchemist i have lots of time for valuable research.
This sector of my research revolves around the concentration of CN in the different varieties of stone fruit seeds/pits; Cherries, plums etc.
Before you all question my judgement, yes CYANIDE is present in alot of stone fruit pits and even plant material.
What concentration i have no idea, although i assume it would me minute.
There are very few reported deaths from people 'eating' the seeds, but in 18th western europe there were numerous deaths. This is because the Distillers were making plum spirit while crushing and fermenting plums & seeds combined...MMM CYANIDE POISONING! LOL
Anyways, i am now extra vigilant in removing seeds before i ferment fruit, but i am quite interested in the idea of obtaining/extracting an extremely toxic posion cost effectively and with minimal arousal. EG The local chem supply joint might get a little suspicious if you ask for 100Ml of Potassium Cyanide. Point made!
Well i am currently on a crusade to obtain information on the concentrations of cyanide in various types of fruit seed and whether or not it is viable and SAFE to do so.
Of course dealing with CN is never SAFE, but nonetheless i shall keep you guys informed about my findings.
Interestingly, the highest concentration of cyanogenic glycosides, is in the oil if apricot seed.
The interesting part though..It is concentrated in a vitamin, B17. Now B17 is a relatively harmless vitamin, except when it is ingested. When Apricot Extract(B17) is ingested, it reacts with an enzyme called glucuronidase and then produces a metabolite of CN. Which will obviously kill, if the dosage is high enough.
Funnily enough, in the 50's they developed a radical drug called "Laetrile", which is derived from Apricot seed oil and was used in cancer patients. I must mention that they tweaked with Laetrile a little, so that when ingested it would release Hydrogen Cyanide...HEHEHE
They believed that small doses of cyanide being released internally would kill tumours. (There was little evidence of this, but i guess they thought "Why Not?")
Btw, Laetrile is still used and sold legally in Mexico.

[DimmuJesus]

This is a subject that has always interested me greatly. I made mention in another thread of the books Silent Death and The Poisoner's Handbook. If read things that cover all forms and poisons and methods of poisoning. However, something I haven't been able to find, and when it comes to this the texts I have read are unclear, but what poisons/toxins are deadly if smoked? What when burned is lethal, in terms of a plant or even a concentrated poison? If you were trying to poison somebody with a poisoned cigarette, or laced marijuana, what would one use? I see that many who have posted here have already proved themselves far more knowledgable than myself on this subject, so I hope maybe someone can offer some guidance.

[ShadowAlchemist]

I am assuming many poisons could be administered by inhaling, seeing as various types of plant material contain poisons. It all depends on what you define a deadly poison?!
Also I cannot prescribe to you the best poison to use in a laced cigarrette. Some poisons can kill you instantly whereas others take years to take affect. I also think that by lacing a joint, you are only going to be able to harm someone you have a current relationship with.
If you have read numerous text about poisons, then i find it hard to believe that they havn't mentioned which poisons are administerable via smoking/inhaling.
If I ever wanted to do such a thing(which I wouldn't), I would use some form of inorganic arsenic.
However, prolonged exposure to low does of arsenic, will cause skin discolouration and ugly little warts. Find an online posion encyclopedia and research different poisons!

[DimmuJesus]

See, I agree that it's odd that I haven't been able to find much about smoking poisons. They just aren't very specific in that area. Many things mention that they are deadly if inhaled, but as I understand it many poisons lose their effectiveness when they are actually burned. I think inhaling particles of something is different than the smoke since the burning may possibly change the chemical compound.
Then again, there are several somewhat safe things that when burned will actually release toxic gas or fumes. I was reading in another thread about the effects of burning teflon. I also have learned that burning Sodium Metabisulfite will release Sulfur Dioxide. I wonder if in a small amount of Sodium Metabisulfite, like you would lace into a cigarette or marijuana, would release enough Sulfur Dioxide to be lethal.
Something that you mention Shadow is that point of someone you have a close relationship with. I guess it would be common sense to point out that anyone else in a room, the poisoner included, can be harmed by the poisonous smoke. If someone does decide to experiment with this, please keep this in mind when your "lab rat" uses it. And also be aware that other people who may be close to your victim could potentially be harmed as well, whether you want them to be or now.

[simply RED]

Hg or HgCl2(sublimate). opium derivates, organic chloride pesticides, the hexachlorocylcohexane will be very effective, freon 12, organic fluorides(one example mentioned in the teflon thread). perchloroethylene when ignited in the presence of oxidizers produces fosgene. liquid bromine evaporates easily in fire. Talium chlorides, phosphorous chlorides, fluorides, bromides, oxibromides... berilyum chloride. Very effective are halogenated alcohols, organic acids, aldehydes and ketones. Organic hydrazine derivates mixed with mild oxidizer produce nitrous oxides and numerous nitroso derivates. All these become very deadly when burned, smoked, heated. Such toxin can be engineered by searching for solid-liquid phase reaction that produces toxins, example: CaF2 + NaHSO4.xH2O produces HF.
AND MY FAVOURITE: NH4F!
2NH4F + 3/2O2 = N2 + 3H2O + 2HF
Without oxigen: NH4F = NH3 + HF = NH4Fgas(untypical sublimation). Again very toxic.
Enough?
by the way: where to download books Silent Death and The Poisoner's Handbook?

[DimmuJesus]

Thank you to simply RED for that response. I will have to research more into that. I don't know of any place to download those books. I own both in printed text form, which I purchased from Amazon.com. There are many other places that have them available as well. Silent Death is written by Uncle Fester and is in it's Second Edition. The Poisoner's Handbook is written by Maxwell Hutchkinson, published by Desert Publications.

[Mr Cool]

Some of those I wouldn't really call poisons... eg bromine is far too irritating for a lethal dose to be administered easily.
If you want a poison to be delivered by smoking, it needs to be stable. Coniine (2-propylpiperidine) looks very stable, and would vapourise easily. It is also relatively easy to synthesise in the pure form, being the first alkaloid to be made in the lab. Take a look:
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/hemlock/synthesis.htm
Some unsaturated coniine-like alkaloids are actually more toxic, so maybe use a less effective reducing agent than sodium in ethanol.
Fluoroacetates, fluoroethanol etc would work well too.
But not big things like tetrodotoxin. Too likely to decompose..

[ShadowAlchemist]

Some very interesting proposals red..thanks :)
This is unrelated to 'death by smoking' but it relates to what i mentioned earlier about cyanide concentrations in apricot seed.
It seems that in the seeds of unripe apricots and plums, exists a toxin called Amygdalin.
Amygdalin Releases cyanide when it interacts with the enzyme, emulsin.
Now Emulsin is also present in unripe plum seeds..but not apricot.
So in theory, if 'Unripe' Apricot seed oil extract is ingested and you have emulsin & glucuronidase(which occurs naturally) in your system, then both B17 and Amygdalin will react and release cyanide into your bloodstream. Not a pretty sight i imagine ;)
If Ripe Apricot seed extract is ingested, then only the B17 vitamin will react.
If the unripe plum seed extract is ingested then you will have amygdalin release cyanide into your body. I read that the LD for CN is 0.06g.
Dimmujesus, i know that i sure as hell wont be testing for sulfur dioxide gas ;)
Although it couldnt be any worse than what is already in cigarettes. Did you know that cyanide is also a byproduct of cigarette smoke?

[simply RED]

Mr Cool, very good link!!

What about nicotine in pure state, or chrystalized nicotine. It evaporates, right, and has no smell or taste. A cigarette with 0,5 grams nicotine :). It may not kill but will certainly do demage. Ordinary tobaco can be soaked in saturated solution of nicotine.
Is the alpha amanitine in the amanita phalloides destroyed by heat, can it evaporate?
Yes, the upper suggestions are not all deadly. Actually i have thought about some of them in the past as possible to be combined with a bomb. Or napalm with dichloroethane or freon for example.

[ChemHacker]

Originally posted by ShadowAlchemist
So in theory, if 'Unripe' Apricot seed oil extract is ingested and you have emulsin & glucuronidase(which occurs naturally) in your system, then both B17 and Amygdalin will react and release cyanide into your bloodstream.
You don't need emulsin to decompose amygdalin. It is readily decomposed by dilute HCl acid (stomach acid) into glucose, benzaldehyde, and hydrogen cyanide. If the concentration of HCl is high enough, it decomposes into glucose, mandelic acid, and ammonia (which of course forms ammonium chloride).

Laetrile, vitamin B-17, and amygdalin are different names for the same substance. A bit of info regarding extraction of amygdalin can be found here: http://23.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AM/AMYGDALIN.htm

BTW: A good source to research the chemicals in a wide variety of plants can be found at the Agricultural Research Service (http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/farmacy.html)

Your posts don't suggest a great deal of knowledge about these compounds nor do they say much about your research skills. I strongly advise you not to play around with cyanogenic compounds until you have acquired a good working knowledge of chemistry and adequate lab skills. I don't intend this as an insult, but rather as a piece of friendly advise. What you don't know CAN kill you!

[QuartzRox]

"A cigarette with 0,5 grams nicotine . It may not kill but will certainly do demage. Ordinary tobaco can be soaked in saturated solution of nicotine."
I have already experienced a nicotine intoxication and trust me you feel unbearable effect even under a poisonous dose. The guy would just throw away the cigarette well before lethal or "damaging" dose because of the horrible effects it does at first (like being out of breath for minutes and completly panicked even though you breath plenty of air and major coordination and mental confusion).

[Macaman]

Correct me if Im wrong - but wasnt foxglove used as a heart medication in times long gone? I know its a poison but Id assume that the lethal dose would have to be kinda high - but as suggested alkaloid extraction would be a good way to go.
Does anyone know if that would work on Deadly Nightshade? (atropine is the main toxin in this) and could a simple water extract (boiling the berries and reducing to a syrupy conscistancy) work.
Are there any good books on the subject? and more importantly does anyone have some to load onto the FTP - it seems a lot of people are interested in natural toxins - prehaps that could be the subject for a future "special project"
If we had a good document on the topic I at least would find it useful :)
A good reference that some may not have thought of is "Legal Highs"
The document is aimed at using plants to get high obviously - but the thing to remeber is that most of the substances can be fatal if enough is given. In some its a fine line between bizzare psychadelic experiences and agonizing death (things like belladonna etc.)
Mushrooms are very interesting in this field. One in particular - Im not sure of the name tho and dont have time to look it up right now - but i think it was as simple as heartstopper or something similar. the interesting part was that death came suddenly 3 days after ingestion - by which time all traces of the toxin have been flushed from the body leaving the autopsy to reveal nothing but a heart attack.
later
FS
The fatal dose of atropine is not known; doses
of 200 mg have often been used therapeutially for mental illness, and as much as1000 mg has been survived. In children, 10 mg or less may be lethal.

Table 25?3. EFFECTS OF ATROPINE IN
RELATION TO DOSAGE

DOSE EFFECTS
0.5 mg Slight cardiac slowing; some dryness
of mouth; inhibition of sweating
1.0 mg Definite dryness of mouth; thirst; ac
celeration of heart, sometimes pre
ceded by slowing; mild dilatation of
pupil
2.0 mg Rapid heart rate; palpitation; marked
xerostomia; dilated pupils; some blur
ring of near vision
5.0 mg All of the above symptoms marked;
speech disturbed; difficulty in swal
lowing; restlessness and fatigue; head
ache; dry, hot skin; difficulty in mic
turition
10.0 mg Above symptoms more marked; pulse
and rapid and weak; iris practically oblit
more erated; vision very blurred; skin
flushed, hot, dry, and scarlet; ataxia,
restlessness, and excitement; halluci
nations and delirium; coma


Symptoms arid Signs. These develop promptly after ingestion of the drug. The mouth becomes dry and burns; swallowing and talking are difficult or impossible, and there is marked thirst. The vision is blurred and photophobia is prominent. The skin is hot, dry, and flushed. A rash may appear, especially over the face, neck, and upper part of the trunk; desquamation may follow. An atropine rash is more likely to occur in children. The body temperature rises and, `especially in infants, may reach alarming heights (109 ° F or more). The pulse is weak and very rapid, but in infants and old people tachycardia may not be pronounced. Palpitation is prominent, and the blood pressure is elevated. Urinary urgency and difficulty in micturition are sometimes noted. Abdominal distention may develop, especially in infants.
The patient is restless, excited, and confused, and exhibits weakness, giddiness, and muscular incoordination. Gait and speech are disturbed. Nausea and vomiting sometimes occur. The behavior and mental symptoms may suggest an acute organic psychosis. Memory is disturbed, orientation is faulty, hallucinations (especially visual) are common, the sensorium is clouded, and mania and delirium are not unusual. The diagnosis of an acute schizophrenic episode or alcolhic has been mistakenly made.

From The Pharmacolcgical Basis of Therapeutics by Goodman and Gilman

Atropine is a good way to drive someone crazy but not to kill them.