Acrolein

[green beret]

Recently I have been looking into acrolein as an irritant weapon and a substitute for pepper spray. For those who dont know, its made from sodium bisulfate and glycerine.

I like it because manufacture is simple, and from what I have read, it is quite effective. I would like to know from anyone who has made this, or knows about it, as to its effectiveness etc.

Also on the net while searching for info on this, I came across a page saying that acrolein was toxic and could have lasting and lifelong effects on ones health, I'm going to research it more but I dont want to be messing with this stuff until I know its safe. But if I do manufacture any, I'll post notes on which procedure I used and when I test this stuff :D I will let you know how well it works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

As a sidenote, for any australians after soudium bisulfate, it can be obtained quite cheaply from Big W stores in the pool supply section for around 9 dollars for three kilos. It is sold under the name dry acid.

<small>[ January 31, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]</small>

[MrSamosa]

Acrolein can be deadly, actually. Also, it does not necessarily have to be prepared from Sodium Bisulfate, but rather any desiccant. The idea is to remove two molecules of H2O from Glycerol, thus forming Acrolein. If Bisulfate is not obtainable, try Boric Acid or Sulfuric Acid.

From War Gasses, the process for Acrolein is by using 100g Glycerol, 80g Potassium Bisulfate, 20g anyhydrous Sodium Sulfate, and heating to 160-180 degrees Celsius. Because Acrolein polymerizes very quickly to "Disacryl," which is worthless as an irritant, it is best to keep the Acrolein impure. Pure Acrolein polymerizes faster than impure Acrolein. Also, Hydroquinone is used as a stabilizer.

Oh, and there is already a thread in this very section about Acrolein, with the same name as this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[nbk2000]

Slowly dropping glycerine into preheated H2SO4 will also produce the acrolein.

It's more toxic than phosgene but, because of its intensly irritating nature, likelyhood of anyone getting lethally gassed by it is very small.

But that might not be the case if you spray the liquid into someones face. It's damaging to the skin, and would likely blind a person, permanently, if sprayed in their face.

This could be something you set up ahead of time as a harrasment weapon. The glycerine and bisulphite are mixed ahead of time and placed on soemthing that'll generate enough heat to form the acrolein. Either a hotplate on a timer, or a time ignited esbit stove, would work. As long as the container was sealed, it would likely last a long time prior to use since the two chemicals don't really react unless heated. :)

<small>[ February 01, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[a_bab]

Well NBK2000, than for your delight I must tell you that a mix of acetone and liquid bromine will do nothing for 5 minutes, but afterwards it'll react extremly violent, and hot, and ALL the products will be gaseous due to temperature. It's quite amasing. If this reaction is done in a bottle, the jet formed from reaction can reach 2 metters <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I know because I tried ! (and I cryed alot :( )And the brom acetone IS a very good lacrimator. I'd stick to this instead of acroleine.

[nbk2000]

Interesting!

Though liquid bromine is rather difficult to find around (most) peoples homes, and you only have a 5 minute window of opportunity, whereas the acrolein mix will sit, inert, for a long time till heated.

[a_bab]

Yes, but you can imagine easily some sort of system that will mix the acetone and bromime...So you can get plenty of time.

[nbk2000]

Obviously, but there's still the problem of obtaining liquid bromine, though I've seen potassium bromide salt for sale as a spa chemical for $2/ounce. That could be processed to extract out the bromine.

[a_bab]

Exactly ! It can be done really easy, less dangerous than acroleine by simple means (testubes). I would rather prefer being intoxicated with brom acetone than with acroleine.

[vulture]

Bromine vapors aren't less hazardous then acrolein and you'll have to work with them when producing bromoacetone.

The neat thing about bromine is that it is a gas, but behaves like a liquid, it can be decanted from containers like liquids.

[a_bab]

Well, have you EVER seen bromine?! It's a gas as water is a gas !
It's very volatile - that's true - but it's not a gas. Not in the normal conditions at least (20 degrees C). It boils if I recall corectly at about 60 degrees.

[nbk2000]

He's probably referring to the very dense bromine vapors that are always present at STP. These are "pourable" in the same sense as dry ice fog is "pourable".

[VX]

A lot has been said about chloracetone, and bromoacetone as far as there use as lachrymators goes. However, currently I am in possession of about 100g of iodine crystals.

I wonder if iodo acetone will have similar properties to the two above mentioned compounds. I can't find any information about it at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Has anyone ever tried to make it? Does anyone know any useful specifics about it e.g. is it a liquid even? Is it volatile (bp?) is it more or less effective than chloro, and bromo acetone..... Can it be made the same way as bromo acetone? (Which I can find on the organic synthesis database) Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[nbk2000]

Iodoacetone is also an irritant, but less so than the others.

In increasing order of potency is iodo-, chloro-, and bromo-. I don't know where fluoro- fits in since it's a rather contrary thing at times.

Check the FTP for a book called "War Gases". It'll give you step-by-step procedures to follow.

[green beret]

Wow, this stuff is better than I thought, I wont be using it as a pepper spray substitute though. I'd like to mix some up. The good thing about it is that if you make it and can't use it like you planned, just let it sit until it forms into a gum (not sure of the excact name or time frame for this), becoming relatively benign. I think its lethal in concentartions of 0.35mg per liter of air, quite good, but as nbk said, the irritating nature of this means its unlikely many people will inhale a lethal dose. Still undoubtedly effective though. Could be used to deny area access, until they get gas masks of course :rolleyes:

But...dosent chloropicrin penetrate gas masks? Probably not modern ones anyway, I was going to say it could be mixed with chlopicrin, or something similar.

<small>[ February 07, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: green beret ]</small>