Improvised Chemical Weapons

[Viper4403]

I'm working on a file for chemical agents,
and am trying to add some improvised ones.

If anyone has any ideas can you please post
and help me out.

I need
a) the name and chemicals involved in making
whatever it is.
b) what it does to the target.
c) how it can be made (preferably home-made).
d) can it be protected against?
e) any other important notes, such as if
there is a special delivery method, or if the
agent is only effective on certain people.

The types of agents I need are :

Irritants (things like teargas, vomitgas)
Incapacitants (make you unable to function)
Blistering Agents (burn the skin)
Casualty Agents (Lethal)
Toxins (organic or similar types of poison)

Also, as an added ittem, I am looking for
new types of home-made improvised weapons.
Anything that can be made out of simple
materials in a short amount of time.

Anyone who comes up with something I use can
have their name in print as the source.
So ham it up guys.

I already am working on GHB as an incapacitating agent, but need to do
more research. Any input?


Thanks for anything you contribute.

[FadeToBlackened]

Well, most lachrymators ARE vesicants to a degree, not so much as mustard gas though. CN and CS are 2 examples, as is Chloroacetone. All 'considered' tear gas (lachrymators) but all are vesicants.

...oh btw, the only protection you can get from mustard gas is (to my knowledge) wearing a gas mask (for respiratory system) and Not letting it touch your skin.

You can survive nerve gas attacks if treated fast enough (which is with 500mg of some stuff i dont remember and 2mg of atropine. It works to reactivate the cholinesterase and something else, like slow the effect of the agent or something.. dont remember)

...And even if it's not listed as a CW agent, it can be useful. You'd be surprised with what a little white phosphorus can do. It is pyrophoric, but find an efficient way of delivering it to the target and you'll have a weapon of nerve gas toxicity. VX (most toxic synthetic substance to my knowledge) is 5 or 10 mg. WP is ~15mg.

[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited May 09, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

There is always good ole' Cl gas, Hydrogen Cyanide(HCN? Easy to make ask if you don't know how?), Phosegene, Vapourize Capsism(OC, extract from Peppers). I don't know what it is called but it is colourless gas that forms when Lime-Away and Chlorine Bleach are mixed(Don't think it is chlorine because chlorine is green...right?) NBK has a process in the PDF for Mustard Gas that He Claims work(Never Tried). HCl(aq) mix with Al puts off a fog like gas(not sure it it is poisonous).


------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Agent Blak]

Ps.
Ethly Mercaptin(Hydrogen Sulfide{H2S?} bubbled through Ethyl Alcohol) I am sure will be very affective for clearing buildings and It is poisonous if the concentartion is High enough.
*wink

[Alchemist]

I like Bromoacetone CH2BRCOCH3 better than Chloroacetone! It's made by treating Acetone with Bromine and Sodium or Potassium Chlorate
as a catalyst at 30 to 40 degrees C.

Bromine can be made by distilling delute Sulfuric acid (Battery acid) and Sodium Bromide (Pool Supplies) with Manganese Dioxide (Carbon/Zinc batteries [the black powder]) as a catalyst.

P.S.1, This stuff is toxic!

P.S.2, Anyone else know how to make any other Mercaptins easily?

P.S., Agent black, do ya have any more info on that Ethly Mercaptin?
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[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited May 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited May 09, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

No...
to my knowledge you just bubble it through untill it stops absorbing H2S.

[CragHack]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">HCl(aq) mix with Al puts off a fog like gas(not sure it it is poisonous).</font>

i believe that be good ol' H₂ gas my friend. Al is considered an active metal, and of course HCl is a mineral acid. not exactly a CW when considering the company it has to keep. But hey if you only breath in H₂ and no O₂ then i guess you are fucked. Best if lit though, nice fireball. I believe you see it as cloudy because of water vapor present in the gas. No big deal.

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited May 09, 2001).]

[Viper4403]

Substances I have concluded as viable
thus far (improvised and invented) :

CS (Teargas)
Chloropicrin (PS) (Vomit Gas)Diphenylchloroarsine (DA)
Formaldehyde (Tearing)
Distilled Mustard (Blistering)
Cyanogen Chloride (CK) (LETHAL)
GHB (Incapacitant)
Mercury (as a toxin)

This is a list of items I am either 100% sure
will be added to my file, or I am still
researching. So please exclude these from
your suggestions, except for advice on how
to synthesize GHB, and its delivery as a
weapon.

More to come, thanks.

[NightStalker]

Crag:
hcl and al is a combination that works.. you're right that the chemical reaction produces no real toxic fumes but the heat vaporises big amounts of hcl, that form an agressive acid cloud. if you inhalated this it'll fuck up your lungs, eyes, nose etc...

a good method of usung this is to make a glass jar full of hcl, wrapped in at least 30 layers of al foil. a small(!!!) charge in it breaks the jar and reaction starts...

i once removed my mask too early after trying this, it was like sniffing the fumes over a bottle of hcl... and my charge had been ignited 10 minutes ago, in a small wooden building that had large windows with no glass in it...

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Death stalks silently....

[jin]

i read somewhwere that selenium dioxide can be used as a toxic lung irritant and can easliy be made by adding selenium powder to a gunpowder type mix.the selenium dioxide being spread with the gunpowder gases in a inclosed space to damage the lungs of anybody inside the building.not sure how toxic it is

[Foodos]

GHB delivery is very easy, its through ingestion or injection, most common is ingestion, I say common, because it is becoming the most common "date rape" drug. People drop it into someones drink, and in 2 hours or less (I believe, though it depends on the grade or efficiency it was manufactured under) the victim of GHB goes to 'sleep' for 6hrs plus, it effectively knocks people out. It isn't skin porous though, I haven't seen, heard, found any reports on it being such.

[FadeToBlackened]

And as far as biological toxins go, if you could get it, botulinum toxin A would be the way to go. Something on the order of .001mg (i read that somewhere..ill post it later) is lethal.

[Agent Blak]

What about Mixing GHB with DMSO(50/50 maybe) then vapourize it with an atomizer, or you could shoot them with it out of a Water pistol or the like. How fast does it take some one down if it is introducewd into the blood stream?


------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Viper4403]

What about other "street" drugs as weapons?
How about MDMA (Exstacy)? It has some
euphoric/hallucinogenic effects I believe.

[FadeToBlackened]

Or some LSD maybe, its supposedly one of the most psychoactive substances known.

[Agent Blak]

It also takes very little LSD to get the desired effect.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[BoB-]

Agent Blak, the liquid GHB is usually more concentrated, OD's of this stuff cause coma or death.

LSD or D-lysergic acid diethylamide, (C20H25N3O) would be evil as a weapon, when you drop acid you know what your taking, and can mentally prepare yourself for the journey, being randomly injected with the stuff would insure a bad trip.

Found this on the Lycaeum (http://www.lycaeum.org/live)

Dosage:
Oral
Threshhold- 10-50 ug
Mild- 50-100 ug
Medium- 100-250 ug
Strong- 250-500 ug
"Saturation Dose"- 500-1000ug and up
A "standard" dose is canonically held to be 100 mcg, but the average "hit" sold today is typically around 50-75 mcg according to DEA analyses, in contrast with what are believed to be much higher doses (around 250 mcg) when LSD first appeared on the black market in the late 1960s

Smoked
Despite persistent uninformed reports of "pot laced with LSD", LSD cannot be smoked. It is destroyed by heat.

Can any of the psychonauts confirm the average "hit" being 50-70 mcg? I'm more likely to beileve a dealer/maker than the DEA http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Agent Blak]

How much Insulan(Sp?) does it take to induce unconsiousness? This I think could be very useful for kidnapping someone and not leaving drugs in their system(Insulan is naturally occuring). You could administer it via a BlowPipe/Dart.


------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Gollum]

Insulin smells like shit though anyone with diabetes would know what it is. (Lots of people have it something like 1 or 3 in 10 people over age of 20).

[PYRO500]

the problem with acid is that it takes around 30-45 min to work through the skin, however, like the fuckholes on the street that take it by eye it could work in around 5 min, this could blind someone though. as for the production of acid forget what you hear about beer containing ergot and hawiann baby woodrose seeds containing lsd, they dont, however, if you are willing to pay exorbant prices and get usda shipping forms filled out you can extract crude lysergic(sp)acid from them, take note that this all has to take place in a darkroom under stabe tempature. now insulin, it would ake a ton to knock a normal person out, this stuff effects dieabetics worse beacuse they cannot regulate their blood sugar very well, also the amount needed to take down a person could easily kill them beacuse you dont just pass out, you go into a coma, a big syringe of insulin would make a normal person woozy like they havent eaten in a while but it is not likely to be a canadate of blow guns, and they could test for it if they saw that the person died of lack of sugar to cells.
a better poisin for blowgun darts is ketemene
I beleve that can be taken through muscle tissue

[Viper4403]

I wouldn't believe anything the DEA said
that wasn't independently verified.

What about the rumors that LSD was created
by the US government AS a chemical weapon?

GHB looks promising. Does anyone have any
tips regarding synthesis? Is it fairly
easy?

[nbk2000]

Insulin is unusable as a "stun" weapon because the difference between a dose with no effect, coma, and death, is only a few milligrams.

Doctors used to use it as a psychiatric treatment, "insulin shock", but stopped because of excessive fatalities.

Succinylcholine chloride is better for paralyzing a victim because an effective dose is only 10 milligrams, effective in about 10 seconds. The paralysis wears off in about 3 minutes, leaving the victim too weak to fight. You cuff 'em and hog tie them before then of course.

A lethal dose is about 10x as much as the effective dose, which is plenty of margin.

The reaction between HCl acid and aluminum produces hydrogen, but also a lot of heat that boils the acid, releasing gaseous HCl. That's the visible cloud part of it.

Cadmium is easier to get then selenium, being iside rechargable nicad batteries. It's a spiraled foil inside, like a ho-ho.



------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

[hodehum]

Here is some information on all kninds of chem weapons (well maybe not all)

http://www.opcw.nl/chemhaz/cwagents.htm

[frostfire]

hey, back in the paranoia days, I always think that bacteria is the best bio weapon..
suppose you put 5 mg or about 500.000 collonies of anthrax or botulinum in a WELL SEALED evian bottle (and antidote of course), put it in the jacket 'n go in the airport.....I believe only pcychist can only detect it then. In the destined country, make a sealed compartment in a garage (sealed double glass wall with UV light and vacuum middle space), put 3 stages door with bleach in the door step and decontamination.
Then put a lot of petri disk agar media in jar containers and start growing.....in one hour with human fever temperature, bacteria can grow to hundreds of its original colonies number.....so in a week, you have enough amount to cause almost unimaginable hazard..
Got the idea from the Ebola team back in the Sudan/Zaire outbreak + ......

[Foodos]

Speaking of Ebola, that would have to be the most lethal virus I can think of, biologically, it can kill you 9/10 times, a ton of other shit. If you wanted to take out the world, just fly over the country with a large container of Ebola Zaire (Zaire is the most lethal) with a detonator in the center, and detonate it over the jet stream in maybe 3 different parts of the world, then hide underground. (ala 12 monkeys, but all animals would be dead most likely)

[BaDSeeD]

Ok guys... first off, Ebola (Zaire if you wish) would make a piss poor biological weapon. You failed to realize that Ebola is NOT airborne. There is the "legendary" strain known as Ebola Zaire Mayinga (sp) but it has never been captured, or proven to exist. This strain was named, and assumed to be airborne, because a very competent, and careful nurse had caught this strain. She was never known to be careless around needles, and is doubtful that she was having relations with a patient that had Ebola (ewww). This is how it was assumed to be airborne, as it can only be transmitted through bodily fluids. Unfortunately no samples were saved for study, or exploitation. And anyhow... Ebola isn't all that lethal anyhow.

However if your looking for toxicity, pure botulism (sp again) is the most toxic substance known to man. There is said to be less than a teaspoon worth of pure botulism anywhere on the planet at one time (in nature). It is also said that a few ounces would be enough to kill nearly every living organism on the planet. Luckily (however you look at it), it is very fragile, and among the many things that kills it, sunlight is one of them.



------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

[BaDSeeD]

I should rephrase that slightly.
Botulinum neurotoxin is the most toxic substance known, however it is created by the botulism bacteria. There are several classifications... but i'm not going to do all that typing.

[PYRO500]

botulisim dosent even compare to cone shell venom, and even that is less toxic than the most toxic substances.

[Foodos]

there was a theory that Ebola Reston (USA outbreak) was airboarn, two monkey cages were across the room, one cage was infected, the other wasnt, their was never any contact between the two monkeys, and the opposing non-infected cage contracted the virus later on, though it could have been from the monkey spitting, it is a very likely possibility with the variety of the virus. I concede its not the most dangerous/deadly, appears so from virology studies pertaining to humans (as in # of outbreaks/scale/time) since if it were just number ofoutbreaks and scale, aids would take it.

[frostfire]

yum
if a terrorist want to do bad things in USA, why not explode the central desease control (CDC)
hmmmm, is it Atlanta or Maryland.....the one mentoned in Hot Zone

[BaDSeeD]

Pyro500

I think they asked what is the most toxic biological. I'm not sure a venom falls into that catagory.

Ok... here's a question. Whats the most toxic substance on earth, manmade and naturally occuring? Whats the virus/bacteria (airborn... suitable for a bioweapon) with the highest mortality rate?

I've tried to look online... but in my drunken state... i'm not having much luck (well maybe not drunken... but certainly buzzed).




------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.

[BoB-]

I'd have to say that form of the plague in the Blackdeath known as "pnuemonic". Its been theorized that the pnuemonic plague is responsible for most of the casualties in the black death, probably because its contagious.

Its nearly always fatal.

[CragHack]

are you sure you are not thinking of the "bubonic" plauge? i am not sure that there was a pnumonic plauge. All be it, the bubonic plauge, or the black death as you call it, was airborne (or is airborne)

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[PYRO500]

the airborn version of the virus is called the pnuemonic version, that is the bubonic plague became airborn after mutating

[Bitter]

Saddam Insane supposedly has a hybrid version of ebola that had the airborne characteristics of anthrax.

[PYRO500]

isn't he working on something they cal camel pox?

[CodeMason]

The organo-phosphorus compounds are the most toxic neurotoxins (nerve gasses) known. (Seleno-carbamates are more toxic than VX, but their physical properties make them unsuitable for military useage. NBK2000) In this class is VX (0-ethyl S-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonothioate), which is one of the deadliest chemicals known, second deadliest nerve gas would be Sarin, then Tumbin (Did you mean "Tabun"? NBK2000). These can be destroyed by incineration, and the antidote consists of atropine and diazepam (valium).
The most toxic substances known to man are: TCDD (2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin) and Botulinum (made by that bacteria) toxin.
The best improvised toxic agent would probably be hydrogen cyanide, which is a synch to make, is corrosive, and one inhalation is enough to kill you (many field secret agents died this way, whilst making it from apple seeds.) (Apple seeds is not a viable means of production. NBK2000)

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited May 24, 2001).]

[Machiavelli]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CodeMason:
The organo-phosphorus compounds are the most toxic neurotoxins (nerve gasses) known. </font>
A neurotoxin is not the same as a nerve gas and organo-phosphorous compounds are not the most toxic neurotoxins, they are just the most useful ones from a military point of view. Considerations for an improvised attack might be different.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In this class is VX (0-ethyl S-(2-diisopropylaminoethyl) methylphosphonothioate), which is one of the deadliest chemicals known, second deadliest nerve gas would be Sarin, then Tumbin. These can be destroyed by incineration, and the antetode consists of atropine and diazepam (valium).</font>
There's neither tumbin, nor an antetode, if you're dealing with dangerous substances, you have to be a lot more precise or at least use the fucking spellchecker!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The best improvised toxic agent would probably be hydrogen cyanide, which is a synch to make, is corrosive, and one inhalation is enough to kill you (many field secret agents died this way, whilst making it from apple seeds.)</font>

Where did you learn the part with the apple seeds? Mc Gyver?

[This message has been edited by Machiavelli (edited May 21, 2001).]

[Viper4403]

Batrachotoxin (from the Poison Arrow Frog)
is also quite lethal, and has no antidote.

I have included this in my research, but it
is probably not useful for most as we can't
guaranteee the availability of the frogs.

[jin]

found some info on cyanide from seeds and nuts.
www.ansci.cornell.edu/courses/as625/1998term/Koepke/amygdalin.html (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/courses/as625/1998term/Koepke/amygdalin.html)
i read somewhere mercuric chloride is more toxic by weight than potassium cyanide and easy to make from mercury thermometers

i saw a tv programe where they distilled cabbages and onions to get a crude mustard gas has anybody got info on the process.



[This message has been edited by jin (edited May 21, 2001).]

[simply RED]

What is the chemical formula of ethyl mercaptin?

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NO POLICE, NO SUMMONS, NO COURTS OF LAW
NO PROPER PROCEDURE, NO RULES OF WAR
NO MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCE
NO LAWYERS FEES, NO SECOND CHANCE!
SEPULTURA

[This message has been edited by simply RED (edited May 28, 2001).]

[ANTI-SYSTEM]

Iv made the acid +Al thing mentioned by putting it into a bottle of some sort and put a small hole in the cap so the gas can escape preventing it from exploding. it gives off H and vaporized HCL which can be rather effective if used indoors. After all even getting a wif of the fumes from the bottle of acid can cause a person to start gagging. well thats what id use.

i cant realy remember where i got this poison thing. Nor do i know if all of them work. i do know that some of the plants are poisonous from the fact that thay caused my dog to puke his gutts out after he decited to try a rather small sample of it. and ohter reasons. Sorry its all fuked up but thats how it gets coppied

A List of Plant Poisons
Autumn Crocus: The bulbs cause vomiting and nervous excitement.
Azaleas: All parts produce nausea, vomiting, respiratory distress, prostration
and coma. Fatal.
Be Still Tree: All parts produce lower blood pulse, vomiting and shock. Fatal.
Bleeding Hearts: Foliage and roots, fatal in large amounts.
Buttercups: All parts may severely injure the digestive system.
Camara: Green berries affects lungs, kidneys, heart and nervous system. Fatal.
Campanilla : Be Still Tree (q.v.)
Camotillo: Deadly Toxic. (Solanine) Fatal.
Castor Beans: Produces vomiting, purgation, delirioun and coma. Contains ricin.
Fatal.
Common Oleander: All parts toxicc attacks heart. Fatal.
Cherries: Wild and domestic twigs and foliage. Releases cyanide when eaten.
Shortness of breath, excitement and fainting within minutes. Fatal.
China Berry Tree: Attacks nervous system via fruit. Narcotic.
China Tree: China Berry Tree (q.v.)
Crab's Eye: Seeds, subcutaneous emplacement. Fatal within four hours.
Crow Fig: Seed produce convulsions. Contains strychnine and brucine.
Daphne: Berries have killed children. Fatal.
Diefenbachia: All parts produce burning and irritation to tongue and mouth.
Swollen tongue may block throat death can occur.
(Under circustances, fatal.)
Divine Mushroom: Produces hyper sensitivity, hallucinations and melancholia
for several hours. Deliriant.
Dutchman's Breeches: Bleeding Hearts (q.v.)
Dumb Cane: Diefenbachia (q.v.)
East Indian Snakewood: Produces convulsions. Contains strychnine and brucine.
(Death possible due to exhaustion.)
Elderberry: All parts except berry produce vomiting and digestive distress.
Elephant Ear: Diefenbachia (q.v.)
False Upas Tree: All parts produce convulsions. Contains strychnine and
brucine. (Death possibel due to exhaustion.)
Fish Poison Tree: Excites nervous system, causes spasms followed by deep
sleep. Contains piscidine.
Foxglove: Leaves stimulate the heart. Contains digitalis. Produces circulation
disorder and confusion; may be fatal.
Gabon Arrow Poison: Produces incapacitation through vomiting and purgation.
Contains strophanthin and incine.
Gloriosa Superba: All parts contain narcotic superbine and deadly poison
colchicine (fatal dose 3 grains).
Golden Chain: Bean-like seed capsules induce staggering, convulsions and coma.
May be fatal.
Guiana Poison Tree: CURARE taken from bark. Contains curare, strychnine and
brucine. Produces respiratory collapse. Fatal - 1 hour.
Hyacinth: Bulbs produce vomiting and purgation. Exhaustion may be fatal.
Ipecacuanha: Root is powerful emetic also depressant.
Iris: Stems cause severe but not fatal digestive distress.
Jack-in-the-Pulpit: Roots contain crystals of calcium oxalate that cause
intense irritation to mouth and tongue (similar to dumbcane)
Jamaican Dogwood: Fish Poison Tree (q.v.)
Jasmine: The berries produce severe nervous and digestive upest. Can ve Fatal.
Jequiritz Bean: Crav's Eye (q.v.)
Jimson Weed: All parts cause delirium. Has proven fatal.
Kachita: Crow Fig (q.v.)
Lantana: Camara (q.v.)
Larkspur: Seeds and young plants produce severe nervous and digestive upset.
May be fatal.
Laurels: Azaleas (q.v.)
Mayapple: Roots contain 16 active toxic substances. Fruit may cause diarrhea.
Mexican Tuber: Camotillo (q.v.)
Mistletoe: Berries - Fatal.
Monkshood: Roots produce digestive upset and nervous excitement.
Moonseed: Berries may be fatal.
Narcissus: Hyacinth (q.v.)
Nightshade: Unrie berries produce intense digesive and nervous upset. Fatal.
Nux Vomica Tree: Crow Fig (q.v.)
Oaks: Foliage and acorns affect kidneys; symptoms delayed days or weeks.
Pain and discomfort.
Oleander: Leaves and branches produce upset and induce heart attacks. Fatal.
Extremely poisonous.
Ololiuqui: Jimson Weed (q.v.)
Poinsettia: Leaves Fatal. (One leaf will kill a child.)
Poison Hemlock: All parts. Used as an executionary plant in ancient times.
Fatal.
Poison Ivy: Milky sap is skin irritant. Contains toxicodendrol.
Poison Nut: Crow Fig (q.v.)
Poison Tanghin: Causes voniting purgation and paralysis a.k.a. Ordeal Tree
for obvious reasons. Contains cerberin and tanghinine.
May be fatal.
Potato: Vines and foliage produce severe digestive and nervous disorers.
Contains alkaloid poisons.
Pride of India: China Berry Tree (q.v.)
Psychic Nut: Raw seeds produce violent purgation; death caused by exhaustion.
Red Sage: Camara (q.v.)
Rhubarb: Leaf blade produces convulsions followed by coma.
Fatal. (large amounts, raw or cooked)
Rosary Pea: A single pea has caused death. Castor Bean (q.v.)
St. Ignatius' Bean: Produces convulsions. Contains brucine.
Star of Bethlehem: Bulbs cause vomiting and nervous excitement.
Thorne Apple: Jimson Weed(q.v.) Common cause of poisoning.
Tomato: Vines and foliage produce digestive upset and nervous disorder.
Related to Nightshade (q.v.) Contains alkaloid poisons.
Trailing Poison Oak: Poison Ivy (q.v.)
Upas Tree: Milky sap produces vomiting purgation and paralysis. Contains
antiarin and used as arrow poison (Malaya). Fatal.
Water Hemlock: All parts produce violent and painful convulsions. Many
have died from Water Hemlock poisoning. Fatal.
White Wooly Kombe Bean: Gabon Arrow Poison (q.v.)
Wisteria: Seeds, pods produce digestive upset
Yellow Oleander: Be Still Tree (q.v.)
Yew: Foliage. Death occurs without any preliminary symptoms. Fatal.

HELP STOP THE POPULATION EXPLOSION . . .
POISON SOME ASSHOLE TODAY!

[DarkAngel]

I heard on TV show ones that the peel of a nutmeg is very lethal and ...Mg? can kill ...People?(I can't remember how much and how many ppl it can kill)

Does anyone knows more about this?

------------------
DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[CragHack]

pointsettas are very deadly. To humans and household pets. Disguise yourself as a caterer, put a few leaves in a V.I.P.'s salad and you are in business.

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"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[cutefix]

The issue is on chemical weapons.I think Hydrocyanic acid as a fog would be lethal as will as the old fashioned chlorine gas which was well tested during World war I.It is hard to obtain or synthesize the very deadly sarin,soman,tabun or the most dreaded VX from commonly materials.

[Agent Blak]

No doubt...

you can't expect to be able generate exotic Chemical weapons in your home.
But what is wrong with HCN, Cl2, or phosgene? they are all tried and true. If you are 10 feet away a 12 guage shell in a 3/4" pipe will kill just aswell as a .45ACP, plus the 12guage is easier to come by and so is the pipe.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[cutefix]

Hello Dark angel,The active component of Nutmeg and Mace is Myristicin(It has a narcotic effect).When I was travelling to saudi arabia I realize it was banned to sell this spices.This arabs have very strict drug laws,before it was available but people love to mix nutmeg in tea and there was a strong effect in the central nervous system(causing hallucinations etc.),the cleric and the authorities were worried so an edict was issued banning it.

[Anthony]

How toxic is hydrogen sulfide? It's easy to make but I'm wondering whether it's deadly enough to be considered a weapon? There have been cases of people farting in their sleep and then dying from inhaling the gas...

[X-5]

Hello forum...

Im fairly new here and it seems you all have a far better understanding of chem/bio warfare than me but here goes...
Viper have you considered Biological agents?
Botulism is a nasty thing and s quite simple to make. Also breeds rapidly under the right conditions, say a town/city water supply in a deep dark well...
A mason jar filled with store bought mushrooms,smeared with soil and filled to the very brim (to avoid any air pockets) can be left in a dark area (NO sunlight,no oxygen) for 4-8 weeks producing several grams
of fairly concentrated botulin-carrying mushrooms...Deluxe pizza anyone?

[PYRO500]

Botulisim is moderately hard to make beacuse you have to keep it from air and not hot enough to kill it and it dies very quickly when exposed to air. how about a Brugmansia plant (aka angles trumpet) it is a fairly potent hallucinigen and can be fatal if too much is taken. it is very easy to make and only needs the plant witch all parts contain the toxin. the plant grows in the southeast region of the US, mainly florida. all that is needed is some of parts of the plant to be boiled in water making a potent tea witch can be drunk and cause hallucinations and in high doses death. it has a strong taste so a masking aid is needed (posion koolaid anyone?)

[ANTI-SYSTEM]

i started to heear about the trumpet a while back seems every time i do hear about it is because the person died or went into a comma from it. also causes cesures.

[PYRO500]

there's a few plants like it some are deadlyer than others, but it usually requires a large dose in a short time to do that

[Machiavelli]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anthony:
How toxic is hydrogen sulfide? It's easy to make but I'm wondering whether it's deadly enough to be considered a weapon? There have been cases of people farting in their sleep and then dying from inhaling the gas...</font>

The stories about people dying from their farts are just urban folklore, to my knowledge. But hydrogen sulfide is a very strong nerve toxin.
While it has a very strong smell in small concentrations, you can't smell it, if the concentration is too high, because it can paralyze the nasal nerves.
Even though it's disgusting smell normally prevents people from overexposure, there have been a couple of deadly accidents, eg one worker who died, after he got a cloud of H2S in the face, when he opened a reaction vessel.

[Mr Cool]

Well H2S is very easy to make. Put a powdered sulphide (iron and copper are good) into conc. H2SO4, and you'll get loads of it bubbling out extremely fast.

Why not a cloud of chloroform or chloral? It'd knock people out, they'll lie there and breath in more and die if the dose is large enough. Or if you want to poison a drink put a few mL of concenttrated chloral hydrate solution into it (dissolved in ethanol). It'll be the same: they'll collapse and die shortly if you use enough.

A good one is the well-known hemlock. Get the seeds, and do an alkaloid extraction on them (the kind with the acid, the base, and the polar and non-polar solvents. The alkaloid dissolves in one solvent, then it's acidified or maybe basified and dissolved into the other solvent blah blah blah. Erowid.org will have instructions). This will get you a very deadly mix of alkaloids, inluding things such as coneiine which is very toxic.

Or combinations of MAO inhibitors...

Or a cloud of plutonium dust! 1 gram can kill 20000 people if they inhale it!

[ANTI-SYSTEM]

I also believe wood alcohol is a good toxin for it can be hiidden with normal alcohol. once in the body it turns to Fermeldahide. death occurs in 5days to a week.

[Anthony]

Wood alcohol is mathanol. Methanol is toxic but the cure is ethanol, which is drinking alcohol. Because the body prefers to break down ethanol, the methanol is only broken down slowly so doesn't become lethal.

Ethanol is drinking alcohol, so putting methanol in an alcoholic drink won't work (may if you put loads in it would), beer is a mixture of ethanol and methanol.

Is hydogen sulfide of comparable toxicity to hydrogen cyanide?

[PYRO500]

that was on americas most wanted was it not?
the problem with that is that it may not kill you and it takes a while to die in witch you can be cured. also it repordedly tastes bad and only a desprate person would not refuse it

[cutefix]

Toxicity comparison of Hydogen cyanide and hydrogen sulfide:
HCN - 300 ppm cause immediate death.
H2S - 800 ppm cause immediate death.

[Anthony]

Thanks, they still use a bucket of H2SO4 and drop sodium cyanide into it to execute people (they are strapped to a chair and the bucket is at their feet). So I dare say it would work with H2S.

An idea would be a H2S pressure bottle "bomb", put some metal suphide in the bottle, when ready pour in some acid, cap the bottle and drop it in a bin in a crowded shopping centre/school corridor - bang! big cloud of H2S released.

[frostfire]

just recently found a population of black widows here......hmmmm, death by accidents?

is Sodium cyanide a freely sold chemical? (Not unless you live in Nevada where it's used in heap leaching. NBK2000)


[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 15, 2001).]

[PYRO500]

the way they do gas chamber executions in the us is they have a bed or chair over metal grating and a plastic tray witch is filled with HCL and the tablets are dropped in when the time comes and no phone calls come in. at least that's the way in the us.

[simply RED]

Another way to make H2S in big quantities:
Add solid parafine(wax) to sulphur (1:1 in mass) in a retort( you could use every kind of suitable container of course). Heat the mixture. It starts to melt and H2S gas starts to form.
The H2S forms according to the reaction:
CnH2n+2 + (n+1)S=(n+1)H2S +nC
You could fill a container with the gas or better to make it liquid(What is the temperature/pressure that the H2S goes liquid?) Immagine how good will be to spread liquid H2S on someone’s face http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif .


[This message has been edited by simply RED (edited June 17, 2001).]

[CragHack]

Can you use something such as Aluminum sulphate, dropped in sulphuric acid to produce H₂S?

I found this info while i was searching the internet for the characteristics of H₂S,

Characteristics for Hydrogen-sulphide

-Very poisonous and kills in small amounts.

-At very low concentrations of less than 10-100 ppm, it gives off unpleasant odor - like to rotten eggs.

-At 100 ppm the gas kills the sense of smell in 3-15 minutes and will cause you to cough or your eyes to water.

-Over 100 ppm your eyes and throat may begin to sting.

-At 200 ppm, your eyes and throat will begin to burn. and you will get Headaches.

-Heavier than air.

-Invisible.

-Highly explosive.

-Can destroy steel and rubber seals very quickly.

-Very toxic. Only 600 ppm, or 0.06 of 1% will cause death if you are not treated very quickly.

-Over 1,000 ppm may cause immediate death.

I found this info in this article:

http://www.workover.co.uk/hydrogen%20sulphide%20gas%20h2s/hydrogen_sulphide_detection.htm

------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited June 17, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited June 17, 2001).]

[era5or]

Misc 25 parts paraffin with 15 parts sulfur by melting it in boiling water. Than add 7 parts kieselgur.
At 170 °C and 0,5 gramm of this mixture you get 120mg HS. THis mixture is called "Sulfidogen" and selled by MERCK.
Source http://www.muenster.org/uiw/fach/chemie/institut/wwu/haeusler2/s-std7.htm#7

I read in poor mans jb, that it would be necessary to use potash with potassion ferrocyanide to make Potassium Cyanide. I thought it would also work without potash. Does anyone know what the potash is good for? Maybe as catalyst?



[This message has been edited by era5or (edited September 16, 2001).]

[FadeToBlackened]

I think it has been posted before that FeS + H2SO4 makes H2S.

[era5or]

And it has nothing to do with my question!

I want to know something about KCN, not H2S!

[BoB-]

In some thread a while ago about tranquilizers, I mentioned that Belladona, and Datura, are powerful intoxicants, this is because they have 3 common Anticholinergenic Deleriants in there leaves, they are; scopolamine, atropine and hyoscyamine.

Common OTC Dramamine contains anticholinergenic substances, I have no idea how to remove them however...



------------------
Was worldwar 1 called worldwar 1 before worldwar 2?

[CodeMason]

What about HN₃ gas? Similar toxicity to HCN I hear.

[kingspaz]

dunno if this has been said but what about carbon monoxide? its odorless, tasteless and colourless. because of its slower action in comparison to nerve agents and other instant kill gases it would be too late by the time people realised the attack had happend. i think it kills by bonding to heamoglobin in the blood stronger than oxygen can bond to it so once a heamoglobin molecule has CO on it its useless.

[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited September 20, 2001).]

[cutefix]

I think a poison that is odorless and colorless will be more dangerous than those materials which leave a smell.The problem with CO is it is suitable only in an enclosed area(it is volatile and light).Another important characteristic of deadly poison like the nerve gas is its persistence on the contaminated area.That is one reason, that make VX more lethal than Sarin.It is more viscous,therefore it persist more.

[Demolition]

What about Anthrax.There are 100 million lethal doses in every gram of anthrax material.

------------------
Demolition

[simply RED]

That summer i dreamed of pure nicotine. I didn't make the poison because it is too dangerous but this really seems the best you can make at home. Some drops are lethal...
I also dreamed of NaF. By the way, HF is extremely good if you can vaporise enough... For example, buy 40%HF from the chem suplier and put in the center a stick of dinamite in a test tube(not to be in contact with the acid. This seems a good idea to use it in enclosed buildings.

------------------
With love and hatred i brought her chrystal vase!
When she got home immediately broke it and was spread on the floor...
The strange thing inside was C-4...

[A_W]

Would nitrogendioxide(NO2) make a good chemical weapon? It is very poisonus, and easy to make.

[TariqMujahid]

i believe Nitrogen Dioxide was used during WW1; but i may be wrong. It's about as effective as say, Chlorine. Atleast, i consider it about that effective. Similar to Chlorine, it is also a choking agent. When it reacts with the linings of your respiratory system, it forms Nitric Acid, which corrodes the linings of your lungs, and causes Pulmonary Edema. But in comparison to other Chemical Weapons, this is primitive. Think of Nerve Agents as machine guns...Nitrogen Dioxide is probably a Musket.

[A_W]

As previously stated, H2S is easily made by melting a mixture of solid paraffin wax and sulfur. I recently trew away my paraffin wax because I never thought I would find any uses for it. Now I wonder if there is possible to use any replacements for it? Candle wax, vaseline etc. Also; if I was to make the H2S in a test tube, could a rubber stopper be used? (In a previous post it said that H2S eats rubber sealings. But a whole stopper?)

[Jack Ruby]

Parafin Wax Can be bought at a grocery store. It is used for canning(Jams, Beans, Fish, Etc.) a skill no survivalist should be with out.

The Wax should be slightly Transparent but will look mainly white.

[Ctrl_C]

A synthesis for GHB could almost certainly be found on The Hive.

Also, LSD is very difficult to make. I've heard something like 15 people supply the entire U.S. with acid. Ergot does not have to be imported, it grows on corn and rye. Its blackish and can be picked by hand. I've seen it before, it wouldn't be hard to collect a couple kilo's in a large field. Ergot cannot be cultured well, it needs to grow naturally. I expect LSD would not be hard to make, IF you could find a good procedure and somebody to talk to that knows what they are doing.

H₂S : all I know about this is there is about 100ppm in my nitrous tank and it makes breathing it impossible. You gag and cough and it tastes like shit. Not to mention it smells like rotten eggs. Btw, props to mega for offering a filter-through-water solution to clean it out.

EDIT: I mixed up H₂S with SO₂ which is what my nitrous tank has (had: I took it back today) in it.

<small>[ April 05, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Ctrl_C ]</small>

[rikkitikkitavi]

melting Na2SO4 with carbon (high temperatures, 1100-1300 C) reduces the sulfate to Na2S.

Mix Na2S with strong acid yields H2S.
Works with potassium to, and probably calciumsulfate.

powdered iron + sulfur gives FeS (exothermic redox classic reaction).

/rickard

[nbk2000]

You can use kerosene, and probably vaseline, instead of the wax.

When I made H2S, it was with the wax/sulfur method. The rubber of the stoppers got brittle and cracked, but it was just a surface effect. The stopper still worked as intended.

Raw ergot can be used as a poison. It causes a very nasty effect called "Saint Viticus (SP?) Fire". This was an ancient affliction caused by improperly stored grains that were made into bread back in the middle ages. The ergot caused constriction of the cappilaries in the extremities, which caused a burning pain (pins and needles), followed by the extremities turning black, then green, then falling off.

Extremities such as toes, fingers, ears, nose, penis, breasts, etc. Ouch.

All this was accompanied by the Bad Trip From Hell with hallucinations of demons eating their flesh and whatnot. :D

So go pick some blighted rye and wheat, grind up the powder, then add it to your favorite victims meal. Bon appetite'.

If one had access to a bakery, or any place that used flour, this would ruin them. Tainted bread and all that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Machiavelli]

Yes, ergot is quite cute. But this poisoning thing is so small scale, let's get back to weapons of mass destruction.
O
ne of the most interesting concepts to me concerning b/c agents are "dusty agents", agents that have been adsorbed on a dust-like carrier eg powdered silica.

Apparently this concept was used first by the Germans in WW2 when they prepared agents consisting of different mustards adsorbed on silica. As it seems the concept has been succesfully used with Sarin as well, but I've been unable to find reports of its use, while dusty mustard was used by Iraq against Iran. If you scale down the lethality a bit, powdered silica is also used for creating CS aerosols.

Dusty carriers offer several advantages:
-easy deployment, eg by low explosives or just releasing it in the wind
-easy weaponisation, you can load this carrier with chemicals that are normally totally unsuitable as agents because they're not volatile enough or otherwise hard to spread.
-good penetration, because the dust particles are so small, the dust can penetrate most protective suits. Also, it appears like the dust can penetrate the outer skin layers, which are a major barrier for most chemicals.

Disadvantages:
-after the dust settles down, it may be hard to get it airborne again if the ground is moist, so it's may not be so suitable for area denial. On the other hand CS mixtures have been re-areolized by walking people 2 months after they had settled down.
-if you've ever worked with dust-like substances, you've noticed how they tend to spread everywhere, so it may be more dangerous to work with dusty agents compared to liquids

For more infos I'll upload a few page of a declassifies report to the ftp. Well, now you had some food for thought, digest it :D

[nbk2000]

Do you have the entire report available? Because it would be a good read.

I've read how pollen has been tested as a carrier for toxins and CW agents. Free for the taking, though I don't know about the particle sizes.

The file mentioned Silica Gel, which is freely available. That could be ground up in a ball mill to a suitable size, though only a very small range of particle sizes is suitable for use. Between 2-5 microns. Smaller is ineffective, larger settles out to rapidly and is too large to penetrate.

It also seems that the vesicants are the most effective agent type to use as dusty agents. I wonder how effective a corrosive agent could be instead of vesicants. Something like lye or fuming nitric to burn and blister, without the complications and hazards of CW agents.

Could this be used an a poor mans vesicant?

The NBC proliferation file you uploaded is good reading too. Found some interesting tidbits that I'll be including in my book.

[Machiavelli]

I got the full report now, I'll upload it after this post.

As for the pollen, it would be interesting to know its adsorption values to determine its usefullness.
Though I'd probably use commercial silica, it's freely available in the needed particle diameter (2-5 microns) eg as a surface treatment agent and for many other insuspicious uses, I just have to check on prices.

The only problem is that silica tends to absorb moisture and then clumps together preventing the formation of an aerosol.
I'm afraid impregnating it with lye or fuming nitric would make this only worse but I also think that the idea itself could work, just not with these chemicals. Maybe Sulfuric acid could do the job, I don't know. However, the problem with these mixtures would be that skin contact is noticeable the second you touch it, so it might not be able to stay long enough to do some real damage. It would also cause cough reflexes in the upper part of the respiratory system preventing the agent from getting deep into the lungs.
Anyway, in my opinion that Germany used this mainly for mustards is that it allowed them to use very effective mustards that were otherwise hard to weaponize. They probably didn't do that much research on dusty nerve agents because they hadn't enough experience with them and because they were too afraid to use them in a first strike, at least that's my theory at the moment.
So while dusty mustards seem to be the best researched agent of this class, I think the potential is far greater, that it's possible to use silica as a carrier for most toxic substances and maybe even micro-organisms.
Anyway, my top choices for loading on silica would be OC and PCP. I suppose with OC you could use a rather crude chili extract and if you got enough silica produce a few cubic feet pretty quick. Now combine this with some low explosive charges and you've got enough equipment to clear some streets or buildings.
And while PCP is not as simply made as most explosives it's still possible to synthesize for a good home chemist or it can be bought comparatively cheap on the black market. A heavy oral dose is around 10 mg, so it should be possible to give a large group of people some very nasty nightmares.
Btw, it should also be possible to load the silica with extracts of wolfsbane or poison ivy to get some nasty vesicants. And if you don't use pesticides, use 100% biodegredable organic alcohol for the extraction and pure healthy diatomaceous earth as a carrier then even the hippies will love your chemical warfare agent :D

[nbk2000]

I'd imagine that the absorbant effectiveness of pollen would vary widely depending on the type of plant you got the pollen from. The main value of using pollen, as compared to silica, would be the obscuring factor.

Microscopic analysis would show common plant pollen, not man-made materials. The best thing would be to use pollen spores of a type common to the region and season you'd be dispersing the agent in.

News at 11..."Killer Pollen!" :D

There's plenty of solid chemicals that aren't hydroscopic that are corrosive to the skin. These could be used instead. Plus, it may be more effective if the carrier dust is abrasive, to help break the skin so the agent can get to the soft tissue underneath.

G series agents are rather ineffective, compared to inhalational, through skin absorbtion. Too volatile. Much more effective are V-series and mustards.

Phosgene Oxime (CX) would seem readily adaptable to a dusty weaponization since it's a powerful orticant that causes wheals and necrosis instantly on contact with skin. And it has an almost negligible vapor hazard, so once the dust settled, you'd be (relativly) safe from it.

I noticed in the full article that 2 pages were folded upon themselves. These pages also mentioned the V agents use in a dusty configuration. The bastards did that as an "accidentially, on purpose" way of obscuring the information. PUNKS! :mad:

Use earth friendly Humicides...because you only want to kill the people, not the planet." :p

Dustys main purpose seems to be to penetrate the permeable NBC suits of NATO armies. Unfortunately, the hazmat fools wear impermeable capsule suits, so they'd be unaffected by a dusty.

I'm sure there's other applications a person could think of.

[Machiavelli]

I'm a bit sceptical about the deniability option with pollen, I guess they'd find out after a few days that there are some rather strange particles floating in the air, after all the amounts needed for forensics are rather small, then in the lab they analyze it and discover which agent was used and that it was loaded on pollen.
Then they do a searcch on the net, find the forum and try to get you.
Because they're too dumb to get you, they retaliate against the country that harbored you. Poor California :D

About the Hazmat guys, well they may be protected but so what? The first time they'll show up is when the targeted population is either injured or dead and they just clean up the site so the corpses can be carried away. Since dustys are not very persistant anyway, Hazmat wouldn't disturb me that much. But I'd really like to watch them playing decontamination in the heat of summer in that sexy plastic dress :)

What I like so much about the dust concept is that it makes chemwar a lot easier. After all, it's easier to disperse a pound of killer dust with a small low explosive charge than to construct spraying devices or use high explosives for liquid dispersal which might destroy some of the agent. And it offers so many agent options to choose from.

Btw, that CX you mentioned sounds very interesting, especially for breaking up large formations (eg riot cops) very quick. Do you know a good synthesis for it?

And to sway a bit from the subject, does anyone know something about "fourth generation" chemical warfare agents? The only chemical I've heard of in that context is Perfluoroisobutene, a possible choking agent. Its toxicity seems to be about 10 times that of phosgene and it's listed in the Chemical Weapons Convention.
<a href="http://www.asanltr.com/ASANews-98/pfib.html" target="_blank">http://www.asanltr.com/ASANews-98/pfib.html</a>
"Toxicology of Perfluoroisobutene"
It is produced during the pyrolisis of Teflon between 450-500°C.
<a href="http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/PTFE-Pyrolysis-Combustion-Hazards.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/PTFE-Pyrolysis-Combustion-Hazards.htm</a>
"An Industrial Approach to Evaluation of Pyrolysis and Combustion Hazards"

[nbk2000]

I know that using pollen woldn't prevwent them from using chemical analysis to prove that an attack took place. What it would do is complicate detection of following attacks by simple detection of a man-made carrier like silica gel.

Because they'd have to chemically analyize ALL pollen, rather than use simple (and rapid) optical detection of silica carrier, this would greatly complicate their detection of an attack. And this means delays in warning and decontamination, which means increased effectiveness.

After all, as long as you use pollen native to the target zone, they'd have to collect many thousands of pollen particles to have enough agent to detect, whereas a single silica particle might be sufficient warning.

Also, I'd like to see them try tracing the paperwork on pollen. :D Something they could do with silica if you don't make it yourself.

If THEY want to nuke california in retaliation, they can be my guest. It's no longer part of the United States, but rather, an annexed state of Mexico, what with all the beaners that live here.

Those haz-mat "rescue" drills we see on TV are a joke. Anyone who's in the know about CW know that, if you're still on site for the bunnysuited buffons to "rescue", you're either already dead or not worth saving. It's just body retrieval, nothing more.

And since you can pretty much guess where they'd go to decon, nothing says you can't have a delayed projector attack on their staging area to take them out too. :D

I've read about depolymerizing catalysts that can degrade/disintegrate rubber and plastic within minutes. That would make for an interesting CW agent. Mix that in as part of the dusty, and it'd break through the suit/mask and directly attack them. Unfortunately, details about what these chemicals are is rather scarce since it's part of the "Non-lethal" weapons research programs.

Also, the support personnel are often wearing the army issue air-permeable suits that ARE VULNERABLE to dusties. So a small indoor attack to "bait" a response, followed by a larger scale projector attack with dusty CW would take out a lot of the technical/support personnel that would be on site. This would be a major "brain drain" on them since they're not prepared for such an attack.

Loss of so many of their support people would severly hamper their future responses, and make them much more paranoid about future attacks.

Liquid aerosols are more efficient than dust, but it's also much harder to get the proper particulate size via aerosols, compared to simply adding an agent to pre-sized carrier particles.

It also has the benifit of being a solid, thus easier to handle than liquids. Also, much less likely to leak out of a weapon during storage/transport.

As for CX, there's a process listed in War Gases on the FTP. A more modern process (US patent #4558160) uses chloropicrin (US Patent #3106588 [nitromethane reacted with liquid pool chlorinator]) dissolved in a solvent like THF (PVC pipe cleaner) saturated with HCl gas and reacted with tin powder to produce CX (dichloroformoxime). It's up to 60% effective in converting PS to CX.

Tin is cheap at around $10/pound, and the tin chloride can be filtered out and reduced back to pure tin to be reused again and again. :) It may even be possible to use zinc instead of tin, which would halve the cost to $5/pound.

I've read about PFIB in other CW texts. It degrades in the lungs into HF acid (OUCH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ). It seems like it'd be fairly simple to make too. Just take PTFE plastic, insert in a stainless steel U tube immersed in a molten salt bath heated to 475°C, and condense the resulting fumes to collect the 7°C boiling portion.

I don't know how efficient this would be since I'm sure there's other breakdown fractions included. But PTFE is fairly cheap. I've been quoted $50/10 pounds of pellets. This was 10 years ago so...

I've heard about a new russian nerve agent called "Novochok". No details yet, but it's supposedly an order of magnitude more lethal than VX, is a simple binary reaction that could be done with buckets, and uses agricultral chemicals not monitored by the CWC treaty.

But there's no solid proof that this exists either. It could be just another holdover from the cold-war era "boogyman".

<small>[ April 06, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Ctrl_C]

a little off topic but still on the subject. I have a booklet of chemical agent detection papers that I received from somebody (sorry I forget who) on The Forum.

The front outside cover reads:

Paper, Chemical Agent Detector, VGH, ABC-M8
NSN 6665-00-050-8529
Book of 25 Sheets

The front inside cover reads:

DETECTS LIQUIDS ONLY
G (nerve) - [gold color]
H (blister) - [red]
V (nerve) - [green]

The back inside cover reads:

Instructions for Use of Paper
Detach a sheet of detector paper from the book and attach it to clothing or place on a surface so that it can be exposed to drops of liquid or liquid splash of chemical agents. If colored spots appear, put on protective mask. Compare colored spot with colors on inside cover to determine type of agent. This paper will NOTT detect gas or vapor.

The back outside cover reads:

The paper may also be used to detect liquid contamination by placing the paper in contact with the suspect surface. A color change similar to that shown on the inside cover indicates the presence of chemical agents.
NOTE: Certain G-agents give a red-brown color response which is intermediate between the typical H & G colors.
12-79 KBI76K003-001 Knowlton Brothers

If anybody knows anything about this, please share.

[nbk2000]

There's several military CW detectors that were used by the army that are patented. I used to have the #s, but I'd have to look them back up.

Obviously, if one is messing around with CW, it'd be helpful to have a means of detecting them. I believe I already mentioned the use of freons for detection of leaks in your munitions.

I don't think detector papers would work with a dusty agent since it's very probable that dusties work via vapor action only through warming by the body.

I have a scanned book called "Detection of the War Gases" from the '30s that explains how to detect all the common agents of the day. It's rather massive though, so it'll have to wait till I get broadband for uploading to the FTP.

[ENGINEERKILLER]

m8 paper is just expensive litmus paper alot of decons can give you false positive readings.there is another type of paper called m9 you put it on your nbc suit arms and legs it doesen't tell you what type of agent you have just detects the prescence of them.The army used to have the m8 chemical alarm (the guts look like a ruggedized gas chromatograpgh) but it has been replaced by the m22 it does actualy pick up dustys.
I don't realy have alot of good releaseable information on dust agents but up up to about a year and half ago the term itself was classified.
The civilian hazmat suits are pretty good, but compared to a steppo suit they leave alot to be desired . Our gross contamination suits have a built in cooling system 4 hour drager rebreather and a talk to transmit comunication system. They are actualy half way decent to be in .

[nbk2000]

I've seen a portable body cooling system that uses a vest, cap, and leggings that hold tubes that have coolant circulated through them via externally worn pump. Like an A/C for a chemsuit. Don't know if it's still experimental.

I've seen a useable system that use phase-transition salts to absorb the heat while liquifying. These have the advantage of being rechargable and much cheaper than an A/C system. But they'd only be good for an hour at most if it's warm and you're active.

I've had an impermeable saranx bunnysuit. I started sweating like a sauna in 10 minutes wearing that thing, and I had to wear it for hours while I was working with my project. I'd certainly like a cooling system of any sort.

How durable are the steppo suits? I'd imagine it's some kind of multiple layered butyl/viton/teflon/nylon blend? What about tear resistance?

I'm wondering, regular granular silica gel, how much agent it could absorb. It wouldn't penetrate a suit, but it could greatly extend an agents presence on target.

If the granules were coated with a substance that slowly wore off, and the granules were coated in varying degrees with this substance, then there'd be a constantly fresh supply of agent being exposed over a greatly increased period of time.

Other granules could have a coating that would react to common decon agents, to form another agent, or to catalyticly neutralize the decon agent to render inefffective.

Just some possibilities to think of.

Reminder: The pictures, the pictures! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[TariqMujahid]

If you're going to store chemical weapons; for godsake, use binary agents! It's much easier, and much safer.

Let's take the example Cyanide Gas. Are you going to mix Potassium Cyanide w/ Sulfuric Acid, then store it? If you do, you must have a death wish. It would make more sense to store the Potassium Cyanide and Sulfuric Acid separately, and then mix at the time of use.

The same thing applies for Sarin- are you going to store MethylPhosphonyl DiFluoride, MethylPhosphonyl DiChloride, and Isopropanol together? So if there's a pinhole leak, you kill yourself? NO! The army doesn't do that, why should you? The army stores binary chemicals in different parts of the country.

NBK's idea of Freon and Freon detectors is brilliant, and should be definately be used.

I'm not sure about non-binary weapons, like Mustard or Phosgene though, or with the dust-based weapons.

[nbk2000]

Unitary weapons are much more effective in delivering agent on target.

The military didn't develop binary weapons because they're better, but because of political pressure from allied countries (like Germany) that didn't want possible accidential nerve gas releases on their turf.

So, the army developed the binary system so the agent wasn't made till after firing at the enemy.

However, binary systems suffer from many problems:

Low effective agent weight

Complex chemistry requiring catalysts, inhibitors, reaction moderators, etc

Very limited stability on target

Corrosive or irritating byproducts that defeat the purpose of using an otherwise undetectable agent

Now, for something simple like KCN and H2SO4, simple dumping of the two chemicals in a bucket will generate the gas. BUT, if you created the HCN in a lab and liquified it, you could deliver more than 3 times the weight of HCN on target as you could generate on site.

An example of why you don't want to use binary is the Aum Supreme Truth cult attack on the Tokyo subway back in the '90s. They used 2 bags of Sarin precursors that were poked to mix together and leak out of a bag.

Only 15 people died.

If it had been unitary Sarin, and properly dispersed by either vaporization or dust dispersion, it's very likely that hundreds, if not thousands, would have been killed.

So, in conclusion

Binary Sucks...Unitary Rules.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[James]

They also probably forgot to aerosolize.

[nbk2000]

To quote myself:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
They used 2 bags of Sarin precursors that were poked to mix together and leak out of a bag.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Thus they OBVIOUSLY didn't aerosolize it. :rolleyes:

[kingspaz]

would an old fire extinguisher make a decent storage/dispensor?
it can hold a large amount of gas and a high pressure, also it isn't suspicious and can dispense the gas easily.

[nbk2000]

Many tear gas dispenser are nothing more than converted fire extinguishers. On a fire extinguisher I had, it used a 3/4" pipe fitting. I could go to the hardware store and buy plugs, pipes, and valves that screwed right in.

I blew it up, but I could have used it for gas as well.

If I was using it as a hand held tear gas projector, I'd have the agent in a plastic bag inside of the shell attached to a ball valve. The reason for the bag is so that the agent will be dispensed regardless of the angle of the dispenser.

The ball valve is the ON/OFF, and a hand squeezed sprayer handle (garden hose type) would be attached by a short length of hosing. This would be what you'd spray the target with.

A fine mist to drift with the wind, a stream to reach out and touch someone, or a deluge to drench a room.

If you used one as a chemical dispenser, you'd want to replace all the O-rings with viton rings. The regular rubber rings will disintegrate from contact with most CW agents.

I'd see no reason why a person couldn't load up an extinguisher with a CW, then switch it with one on target. The rigged one could have a timer that would melt a fusible plug to release the agent during maximum effectiveness, or have a remote control to set it off when desired.

If one used a dusty agent, then you could even just leave it on site and hope that someone starts a tiny fire <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> that would require the use of an extinguisher. Boy, wouldn't they be surprised! :D

[TariqMujahid]

Hmm...speaking of Dust based weapons, has anyone heard of Phosgene Oxime (Dichloroform Oxime/"nettle gas")? Don't confuse it with Phosgene, which is a choking agent; Phosgene Oxime is a blister agent. Like Lewisite, it forms blisters immediately on contact with the skin. It can be dispersed either as dust or as a gas.

It is also very effective against a poorly equipped/unprepared population or military force. Why? When it contacts your skin, it causes nausea and vomiting. Therefore, when you start throwing up, you may take off your gas mask in order to vomit and then inhale the gas/dust. However, if you're wearing a full chemical protection suit, it's not so effective =).

I haven't been able to find much information about it online or in books, so i can't give you the LD50 or LC50...just some basic information.

<small>[ April 07, 2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: TariqMujahid ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Once again... :mad:

Read my april 5th post where I detail Phosgene Oxime, and later give patent and bookz references for it's manufacture and toxicology.

Either read an entire topic before you post, or be deleted. I'm not going to tolerate an echo of myself.

[nbk2000]

After reading Anthony's <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001238" target="_blank">topic about airbags</a>, I got the idea of dusty agent using Sodium Azide.

Consider the list of effects for azide exposure listed below.

Inhalation:
May cause irritation to the respiratory tract and mucous membranes, sore throat, coughing, dizziness, shortness of breath, and fainting. May be absorbed through inhalation. Symptoms may parallel ingestion.

Ingestion:
Highly Toxic! May cause breathlessness, pulmonary edema and rapid heart beat within 5 minutes. Nausea, vomiting, headache, restlessness, and diarrhea may occur within 15 minutes. Other symptoms may include low blood pressure, abnormal breathing, reduced body temperature, reduced body pH, convulsions, collapse and death.

Skin Contact:
Highly Toxic! Causes irritation, redness, and pain. May be absorbed through the skin; symptoms may parallel ingestion.

Eye Contact:
Causes irritation, redness, pain, and blurred vision.

Sounds like some pretty nasty shit to spray someone with, doesn't it?

It may even be useable as an FAE or thermobaric fuel.

Attempts at decon using water will generate an even more toxic poison, hydrogen azide, which would also present an explosion hazard.

[Celtick]

I'm with the Marines, here I also got some Handouts about NBC and such (I will try to scan them somewhere since I have no scanner) I also did a research paper at school about B&C warfare But its in Dutch if anyone is interested let me know..

P.S. also check:
<a href="http://www.mitretek.org/mission/envene/chemical/chem_back.html" target="_blank">http://www.mitretek.org/mission/envene/chemical/chem_back.html</a>
<a href="http://www.mitretek.org/mission/envene/nbc.html" target="_blank">http://www.mitretek.org/mission/envene/nbc.html</a>

Check - Chemical Warfare - Source list from my research paper - Cëltick at the forum FTP

<small>[ April 08, 2002, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Celtick ]</small>

[endotherm]

What about some kind of toxin that immediately causes projectile vomiting? Are there any kind of easily made substances or household items that can cause this, and anything whose taste or appearance can be easily masked? This would be a great tool for revenge for the terrorist who does not want to kill their victims.
- especially embarassing in a public restuarant!
I am aware that Icepac syrup causes vomiting but I don't believe this is easily masked, or easily available. They use it in hospitals when it's necesarry to induce vomiting.

[nbk2000]

Chloropicrin causes that kind of effect if ingested. It causes severe nausea, vomiting, colic, and diarrhea that can last for weeks.

It's a potent tear gas, but is insoluble in water, and I believe it has a mild, even pleasant taste. If so, putting it in a cold soda would prevent vaporization, and would mask any taste. Once they downed it, they're going to be in a world of hurt! One drop will do it.

And you can make it quite easily with nitromethane and liquid pool chlorinator. See above posts for details.

[Celtick]

I converted Machiavelli's Dusty Agents Full report to PDF, I'll Upload it when I can connect to the forums FTP again.

[TariqMujahid]

NBK mentioned a method of creating Chloropicrin using Nitromethane and Calcium Hypochlorite (according to the patent though, Sodium Hypochlorite should work too). I have a question for you NBK, if you have tried this, or anyone else who has done this.

1- I do not know many sources of Nitromethane, and I don't have any Nitric Acid to make it. However, at the local hobby store, there is a fuel for R/C cars and Dirt Bikes that is mostly Nitromethane. Although there are some other chemicals in there, usually Ethyl Alcohol or Methanol. Will these impurities drastically affect the reaction so that it cannot be done? Or will it just cause it to yield less pure, but usable, Chloropicrin?

2- Would the purity of some Sodium Hypochlorite drain cleaners be good enough for making Chloropicrin?

[nbk2000]

Drain cleaner has lye in addition to the hypochlorite. Lye destroys chloropicrin.

Better would be to use plain liquid pool chlorinator which is 10% Na Hypochlorite.

As for the race car fuel, the methanol/ethanol would likely react with the hypo, but to what degree and what products would form, I don't know.

Best to disill or boil off the alcohol. The will leave just NM and castor oil. The oil could be seperated or sopanofied with lye (maybe).

[Polverone]

Bleaches that are solutions of sodium hypochlorite almost always contain NaOH also. It's an artifact of the manufacturing process. It's just not listed on the bottle because it's an "inert ingredient" for purposes of bleaching. Nitromethane forms explosive salts with alkalis like NaOH. I have seen what claims to be 100% calcium hypochlorite for sale for use in pools. This would probably be better.

[nbk2000]

Ah, but the patent requires that you react the calcium Hypochlorite with NaOH to make NA Hypochlorite anyways.

So you might as well use the liquid chlorinator. As long as the NaOH content is low, the loss would be minimal.

[James]

Minor point: would it be possible to add either a weak acid or a buffer to the bleach to prevent the {formation of explosive salts|decomposition of nitro methane}.

[nbk2000]

Maybe adding HCl acid would nuetralize the NaOH into inert salt. Though I don't know if the acid would react with the hypochlorite to release free chlorine gas.

Perhaps an organic acid instead?

[James]

I was thinkg that ideally you'd have hypochlorous acid (yeah right), but barring that either say baking soda or vinegar. Yes, I know I just racked up 600+ kewl points.

[TariqMujahid]

I know my other question about the Hypochlorite hasn't been completely answered...

But, for now, I have a new quesiton: How could I go about turning Trichloroethylene (C2HCl3) into Dichloroethylene (ClCH2CH2Cl), a precursor for Sulfur Mustard? I know NBK wrote up something on making Mustard from Ethylene Glycol but this is another way to "skin the cat", and I feel it is worth talking about. Who knows- it might prove to an easier to make Mustard?

TCE is easily obtained as a solvent or paint remover, so if this is possible, it provides a readily-available source for a Mustard precursor. Or, if you're too lazy to do this, heating TCE to decomposition (at about 87*C/189*F) can produce Phosgene.

[nbk2000]

Dichloroethylene is an available solvent too.

Though how is it a precursor for H? I'm not aware (or remember at the moment) of any process that uses that as an intermediate.

I didn't answer your question specifically since I don't know the answer myself. Only experimentation would show if it's feasible.

[TariqMujahid]

I have a list of precursors for different Chemical Weapons I found off a search on Google. It lists the precursor's name, common uses, and what is used as in a weapon. I would imagine that boiling Dichloroethylene with Sulfur should make Mustard and release Chlorine Gas as it is formed? I may be wrong, because I have just about no Chemistry experience. Shouldn't this work though?

4 Cl-CH2CH2-Cl + 2 S -(heating)--> 2 ClCH2CH2-S-CH2CH2Cl + 2 Cl2

On the Google search, I don't remember specifically what I searched; but it had a pretty detailed guide for how to set up and maintain a Chem/Bio Weapons facility. If I can find it again, I may upload it to the FTP.

[nbk2000]

If only it was that simple. But it doesn't work that way unfortunately.

[Hystrix]

What about boranes? They have very unpleasant odour and are toxic like HCN. Afaik MgB2 can be obtained by melting of boron oxide with Mg powder (temperature is about 750 degrees of Celsius). Mix MgB2 with sulfuric acid and run away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
You forgot also about arsenides... They make necrosis of skin. Mixed with acid or water, they give AsH3 (also very toxic stuff).

[A_W]

NBK- HCl acid will indeed react with hypochlorite to release Cl gas. This is a common way to make the gas during chemistry demonstrations.

[Bitter]

Boranes are going to be a little hard to get hold of, not to mention expensive.

[TariqMujahid]

Do you know what ppm Boranes can be smelled at? If it's as good as HCN, than that sounds pretty good...but if it's a very smelly gas, it will alert people to its presence.

[Hystrix]

I think boranes are good "panic gases" (do you remember Anthrax? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ): well, they are highly toxic (sorry, I can't find their lethal concentration now, but their toxicity EXCEEDS HCN) and they can be deadly. But due to their fucking smell (it recalls H2S or PH3) they can be detected rather easily. Well, keeping of them is rather problematic, but I said they can be used locally as a binary weapon (mixing boride and acid).
TariqMujahid: btw, you said about trichloroethylene. Afaik it is good sleeping gas (as good as chloroformium but more stable).
PS. If you need a "lethal gas", use VX or HN-1

[TariqMujahid]

Ahh, i'm sure we'd all LOVE to get our hands on VX...but unfortunately we don't know how to get it =(. There was a file though on the FTP that described VX Synthesis, wasn't there? I believe it was in German and a .ACE file. I downloaded it once, but I don't know which program runs .ACE files...

Speaking of Nerve Agents, I was reading something yesterday about Soviet Chemical Weapons. It said how Soman (GD) was their weapon of choice, but they mixed it with some oil that made it more persistent. The oil gave it a yellowish color.

So, I was thinking: A lot of G-Agents are actually toxic by skin contact. If you stay in a "Hot Zone" for too long and you just have a gas mask, you will be poisoned through the skin. Poisoning through the skin though takes a lot more of the Agent, but still not much more than a few drops of it. The thing is though, that if it spills on you normally, it evaporates too quickly to pose any danger. But what if we mixed a G-Agent, Soman preferably, with maybe...Mineral Oil? To make it less volatile. Then, when dispersed, the area will remain contaminated much longer than it usually would. Or, you could disperse it on things that are regularly touched, like railings on stairwells. So, when someone sets their hand on it, they get a lethal dose of the chosen agent. I suppose the same could apply for Mustard, since Mustard causes worse blistering as a liquid. That's all we really get out of Mustard anyway, seeing as it's little different than a choking agent (on inhalation, that is). I'm doubt Mineral Oil would do it though, because I just said that randomly...does anyone know what oils could be used to make chemical weapons less volatile?

<small>[ April 22, 2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: TariqMujahid ]</small>

[Celtick]

You can unpack .ace files with this (freeware)program:
XAce <a href="http://www.winace.com/" target="_blank">http://www.winace.com/</a>

For more information on VX check: Mitretek's Background on
Chemical Warfare - VX
<a href="http://www.mitretek.org/home.nsf/EnvironmentEnergy/VX" target="_blank">http://www.mitretek.org/home.nsf/EnvironmentEnergy/VX</a>

[megalomania]

A good way to increase the lethality of the nerve agents is to mix it with DMSO so that it can penetrate the skin. I don't believe VX is very volatile as it is, so increasing that may not be very useful. I like the idea of mixing it with chemicals specificially designed to destroy chemical suits and to react with decontamenents, how very evil :) About making a powderized chemical weapon, ever see the pesticides that use powder? There are powders that contain pesticides for coating plants and the ground. The military uses a mixture of nerve gasses some time, along with DMSO.

I happen to have a few references on chemical weapons I am looking over, which I will get around to publishing after I finish my paper on energetic binders and plasticizers. I have a synthesis for all your favorite nerve gasses: Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB), Soman (GD), Cyclosarin (GF), and VX. I will also be trying to get info on V-gas, cyclosoman, thiosarin, thiosarin, thiocyclosarin, and thiocyclosoman. There are also many other variants with different esters, halogens, and such to make many nasties nearly, if not equally, as deadly as the ones we all know and love. I even have about 50 other nasties that are not nerve gasses from the old days. I have no want of information, just time now (I have to squeeze this in with concurring projects on energetic binders, polynitrocubanes, nitric acid synth, and some misc new explosives).

[A_W]

As we all know; phosgene is an extremely poisonus gas, with a lethal dosage as low as 4mg/m3 of air. VX, being the strongest nerve-gas existing (guiness book of world records 2000) is 300 times stronger than phosgene!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> A gas this strong will obviously kill you in extremely small amounts. How can someone make (and use!) this at home without having a 1/1000000 chanse of surviving? :confused: I would certainly stick to "safer" alternatives.

[Anthony]

I'm guessing protective clothing/equipment :)

[TariqMujahid]

Mega- I love you man =). Can you tell me what books and references you are using to get your information from?

VX is very dangerous to manufacture in your house, but one thing that makes VX a bit "safer" is its extremely low volatility. Therefore, there isn't as much of a vapor hazard as with Sarin or other G-Agents. What makes it less safe though, is that the slightest drop on your skin is enough to kill you. A drop 1/5 the size of a raindrop of VX is enough to take down the average adult. Depending on how you make it though...as a binary or unitary weapon...it may be safer. As a binary, you won't even have VX until you're ready to combine the two binary ingredients at the time of use. As a unitary weapon, you have to store ready-made VX, which can be dangerous for someone without adequate warning systems or on a low budget(then again, if you're making VX, I don't think you have a low budget...).

[Hystrix]

GB synthesis:
-------------
PCl3 + CH3Cl + AlCl3 => [CH3PCl3][AlCl4] (mixing in organic solvent)
[CH3PCl3][AlCl4] + 4H2O => CH3POCl2 + Al(OH)3 + 5HCl (cooling is required; water with a bit of acid)
CH3POCl2 + (CH3)2CHOH + 3NaF => GB! + 2NaCl + NaHF2 (temperature is about 60 degrees C., in organic solvent, yield is about 85%)
-------------------------
GD synthesis: use this reaction:
CH3POCl2 + (CH3)3CCH(CH3)OH + 3NaF => GD + 2NaCl + NaHF2
-------------------------
GA synthesis:
consequent treating of POCl3 with C2H5OH, (CH3)2NH and KCN
-------------------------

VX synthesis:
------------
CH3POCl2 + C2H5OH + (C2H5)3N => CH3PO(OC2H5)Cl + (C2H5)3N*HCl;
CH3PO(OC2H5)Cl + HSCH2CH2N(i-C3H7)2 + (C2H5)3N => VX! + (C2H5)3N*HCl or
CH3PO(OC2H5)Cl + NaSCH2CH2N(i-C3H7)2 => VX + NaCl
-------------------------
These syntheses are described in the book: "War Chemicals", by Aleksandrov and Emel'yanov.
Good luck! :)

[TariqMujahid]

That's all well and good; but that's just the synthesis. Not a very detailed procedure for making it, unfortunately. It doesn't even include the names of the Chemicals...although they could easily be found =). But without ratios, reaction temperatures, etc, you can have dangerous runaway reactions, waste of chemicals, or it may not work at all...

[nbk2000]

It's about as useful as posting:

flour+eggs+butter+milk->biscuits

:rolleyes:

What's missing here?

Quantities, quality, time, temperature, addition rates, heating and cooling, filtering, etc, etc.

Don't just copy shit out of an encyclopedia. Dig up the lab synth articles and copy them in verbatim. Find details that most people aren't going to be able to find. Then you'll have contributed something useful to the Forum.

[kingspaz]

but once you have the chemical equation you have something to build on.

[megalomania]

Good news, I have found synthesis info for thiosarin, thiosoman, and the thiocyclos.

I have revised my view on making VX even less volatile. I am thinking of standard military doctrine that says you attack with nerve gas before you send in the troops, and hope its gone when they get there. I forgot about its use as a retreat weapon to contaminate your position so the enemy can't use it. In a terrorist scenraio, mixing VX (or any nerve agent) with a viscous substance and smearing it about the target could contaminate it for months, if not forever. Imagine VX-vaseline smeared on the walls of a school. That would most likely ooze VX vapors over a very long time period. Imagine doing this before a police raid, they smash the door down and get it all over their body armor, not mere water washing could get that off. Mix a little DMSO in there too and one slip... You could even spread that stuff on park benches or the door handles of a victums car. Imagine a slick of it spread out on the sidewalk of a busy building, all those people walking on it it getting it on their shoes releasing nerve gas all day... there is a scary thought. Then again you can use it to kill weeds and garden pests.

Well, uses of chemicals are none of my concern, I only like chemical synthesis. One thing I have discovered is that none of the syntheses are particularly difficult. In fact every one of these reactions involves an esterification reaction with a simple alcohol, this is the 'binary' part of the reaction. Sarin is made from isopropyl alcohol, Soman is from some pinacolyl alcohol, but I think than can be made from t-butyl lithium and ethenaldehyde, cyclosarin and cyclosoman from cyclohexanol. Same thing for the thio's but they start with a P=S instead of the usual P=O (I call this a phosphonyl, like carbonyl, but I don't know if that's a correct name). Then you have your choice of having F, Cl, Br, or I on the P as well (usually F, I am sure that makes the molecule more reactive, but not neccessarily more deadly). I have learned more than I care to about organophosphorus chemistry lately, I am just suprised nobody has published this info sooner. I am sorry to say that with over 60 different laboratory procedures for the preperation of chemical weapons that I have to publish, this may take me to the end of summer. I am still in an intense research phase right now, gathering up all the raw data I can while I can, later on I will distill it into meaningful information on my website :)

<small>[ April 26, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]</small>

[nbk2000]

On the subject of binaries:

People are mistaken in the idea that something like binary VX is "safe". QL (VX precursor that's reacted with the alcohol) is more toxic than cyanide, and as corrosive as sulphuric acid.

It's only in comparison with the finished VX that it's considered "safe".

Everything is relative.

There's a patent in the knowledge section for mixing an agent with a polymeric thickner like plexiglass or polystyrene. This extends agent life by several times.

But one could extend that to an indefinate agent lifespan by making it into impermable, crushable, capsules.

If the agent was sealed inside teflon BB sized (or smaller), and scattered about, than the agent would be protected and immune from any decontaminate. Only when mechanical force ruptured the capsule, would the agent be exposed to countermeasures.

These capsules could be scattered widely over an urban area, where it would lie in waiting for some one or thing to crush it. At which time the highly thickened agent would stick to the feet or wheel of the target, tracking the agent everywhere. It would be most effective over a highly foot trafficed area.

Because the agent is encapsulated, there'd be no overt signs of an attack since no one is dropping dead immediately. Only after the area is walked over by crowds, and the agent concentration increases, would effects begin to be seen.

The rescue crews would have a false estimate of the actual agent quantities on site since they'll have no idea of the actual number of capsules that have been dispersed.

After a decon, the site would be declared "safe", but would become immediately hazardous again when anyone traverses the area.

Mustard would be most effective since it causes eye injuries at concentrations lower than that required for fatalitites for nerve agents. And it absorbs into rubber (shoes and tires), wood, concrete, etc and is very persistant.

You could turn an area into a very expensive (and dangerous) place to clean up. And mustard is very simple and inexpensive to make compared to nerve agents.

No sense wasting exotic V agent on a low value target when a simple vesicant requires the same level of response by the "rescuers".

Perhaps one could absorb it into the pores of silica gel pellets, then encapsulate in wax or polyethylene film, as a "poor mans" version of this concept.

[megalomania]

Although I have much work to do yet, I will provide a 'trailor' to whet everyone's appetite.

Consider this to be a template reaction for sarin, soman, cyclosarin, and cyclosoman. Remember the alcohol is what seperates these, and thats the easy part.

Here is the general reaction: di-isopropyl methylphosphonate reacts with carbonyl chloride to yield isopropyl methylphosphonochloridate, which is converted into Sarin by sodium fluoride in a hot inert diluent
CH₃PO(O i-pr)₂ --> CH₃POCl(O i-pr) --> CH₃POF(O i-pr)
Our main precursor, di-isopropyl methylphosphonate, is prepared from methyl iodide and triisopropyl phosphite. Tirisopropyl phosphite is another matter... I have synth references on the way!

I have another synthetic pathway, propan-2-ol is treated with an equimolar mixture of methylphosphonic dichloride and methylphosphonic difluoride in an inert solvent. Methylphosphonic difluoride is readily prepared by treating the dichloride with hydrogen fluoride. I have a ref for methylphosphonic dichloride synth on the way.

It is this second method that lends itself well to preparing soman, and the cyclo's. None of the reaction conditions or reagents seem to be too exotic from what I can see, it's just making this stuff safely that is a problem. This information is not the original synthesis data, these preperations are later published improvements to make it easier :)

[TariqMujahid]

Very Impressive, Mega; but I find it surprising that so far you've mentioned nothing about Tabun...which would probably be the easiest nerve agent to produce (although storage is another story)... While Sarin, Soman, the Thios and the Cyclos are well and good (I admit, I'm quite excited about the Thiosarin), Tabun has to be one of the easiest Chemical Weapons to produce. There's nothing TOO sophisticated in its synthesis, not even a fluorination step. A lot of people consider it of a different class than other G agents though.

The general reaction for this is: Dimethylamine is reacted with Phosphorus Trichloride, then Sodium Cyanide, and finally Ethanol. Even the precursors are easy to come by.

Could Triisopropyl phosphite be made the same way as Trimethylphosphite? I.E.: Combining Isopropanol with Phosphorus Trichloride?

Damn though Mega... I've spent a long long time searching for Lab procedures and syntheses for the nerve agents, and studying organophosphates, and you've covered everything I have and much more in how long? a few months? When I've spent atleast a year? Maybe it's because of experience or my lack of, I don't know...but you make me jealous =).

[megalomania]

I have not mentioned Tabun because the data I have is in German :) As I can only read maybe 20 words of German, I have to OCR it and send it to a translater website. I believe it is in a different class because its core phosphorus molecule is different from the rest of the G agents.

I concentrate my researh into a big project where I request a flurry of books and journals for many different subjects, and then I sift throught it all to get what I want, and finally publish it. This takes awhile, but the end result is well worth the wait. :D

[Flake2m]

An improvised chemical weapon that could cause maximum mayhem and chaos could be a hybrid FAE.
Though instead of the FAE creating a huge fireball and burning everyone alive, The FAE could just disperse a chemical agent.

You could use something like conc sulfuric acid as a chemical agent in the FAE, instead of a nerve agent.
The explosion would cause chaos and the chemical agent would do the rest. Another idea would be to use this as a diversion, then while people are in a state of panic the real nerve agent could be dispersed.

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Flake2m ]</small>

[Wicked]

Hmmz, how about some HCI gas spraying out of a paintball grenade or something. Maybe fill an air compressor at a car garage full of it. Then whenever someone gets a blow out and gos to check there tire, "IT BURNSSSSSS" heh heh. That idea, wouldnt be to fun though if it just blew out all of the gas at once, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[kingspaz]

or if the HCl ate through the metal canister <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Wicked]

Yeah that would suck ass too.

[Celtick]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I converted Machiavelli's Dusty Agents Full report to PDF, I'll Upload it when I can connect to the forums FTP again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">look for Dusty Agents - converted by Cëltick.pdf in the uploads folder.

[A_W]

I`ve been thinking of SO2 (sulfur dioxide) as a chemical weapon. It could, of course not be used to kill people, but rather as some sort of tear gas. SO2 is very unplesant to inhale, even in small amounts, so I`d guess is makes a good improvised tear gas.

It is also easy to make; just burn sulfur in air. This brings me to my point: Any suggestions on a good oxider/base powder to mix the sulfur with? If the powder was to be put inside a cannister, pure sulfur can`t be used. I was thinking maybe a 50/50 ratio of S and KNO3? What would the reaction(s) be?

[TariqMujahid]

Sulfur Dioxide was actually the first chemical weapon used. No joke. It was used by the Spartans when they surrounded some city, I don't remember which one. I read that in some Cold-War era book in my school library titled "Chemical and Biological Warfare". I'm sure it has some good uses as a Chemical Weapon.

[nbk2000]

Flake, the idea of using an FAE with a CW agent isn't new. It was studied by the army back in the '60s as a possible means of getting the agent into places it normally wouldn't go into. Such places being the interiors of large buildings, tunnels, and other places with "dead" air.

The agent would be dispersed by normal means, thean an FAE would be air bursted over the agent cloud, dispersing it over a larger area, forcing it down to the ground, and shattering windows/doors with the airblast carrying the agent through the target structure.

And there'd be no point in using an FAE as a "distraction" since it's just as lethal as most non-G/V CW agents on a pound/pound basis if properly deployed. But a tactic used by the Iraqis during the iran/iraq war was to use the CW agent, then later use FAE/Napalm to burn off and dissipate any remaining agent to clear the area of evidience of use, and to decon it for friendly troop movement through the area.

Wicked, you're a moron. Shut up and listen to what others here have to say for a while before I get pissed at you.

Celtick, while the thought is appreciated, conversion to PDF is really a minimal effort. Rather, find more material of a similar nature and post that instead. We don't need people doing PDF conversions, we need people researching and posting material not normally found in "acceptable" information sources.

Pu239 Stuchtiger, it's good that you're trying to find relevant info, but (FYI) anything written by "Madscientist" is bullshit with a capital SHIT. The fool used to be a moderator at Queerpier (Weirdpier) before joining as a member here. He was banned from here within a few posts for not being able to follow simple rules that everyone here (except the k3wlZ) have no problems with.

That, and he's a moron armed with just enough school chemistry to make it "look good" to the uninitiated, but those with real chemistry skills know he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Oh sure, he can write up all these equations and whatnot, but think about it...anything this fool can think up has either been synthesized and reported in the literature (Beilsteins, Merck, etc), or hasn't because it doesn't exist. Believe me, he's no nobel laureate so it isn't like he's thinking up things that professional chemists have missed.

Notice how Madfag is the only one posting there? It's because he got ran off from even Queerpier for being an idiotic asshole.

Besides, there already exists an explosive that produces phosgene and acts as a tear gas. It's also rather easily made by anyone here with skill. A quick search through my references revealed this. I'd suggest others do the same.

Dinitrodichlorobenzene (COPAE, pg 140-141)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
Dinitrodichlorobenzene was tried as an explosive under the name of parazol. When mixed with TNT in high-explosive shells, it did not detonate completely, but presented interesting possibilities because the unexploded portion, atomized in the air, was a vigorous itch-producer and lachrymator, and because the exploded portion yielded phosgene.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Download COPAE for the synth procedure, page 141.

SO<sub>2</SUB> is about the weakest thing a person could use as a toxic gas. Just as easy to make, but as lethal as Hydrogen Cyanide would be Hydrogen Sulfide H<SUB>2</SUB>. Any kind of metallic sulfide salt reacted with acid will produce it.

TariqMujahid, you need to change your signature to english. This is an english language forum only. As per the rules "English is the only language allowed at The Forum, all posts in other languages will be deleted.".

[TariqMujahid]

Hey, addressing an older reply to this thread concerning substituting Sodium Hypochlorite (Bleach) for Calcium Hypochlorite (Pool Chlorinator) in making Chloropicrin. I found an easy solution to this problem, extremely easy. I can only do easy things, you see =P.

Anyhow, my mother decided to try my chemistry knowledge yesterday (not that I have much, she was just testing it). She poured Hypochlorite Bleach into a cup and let it sit in the window. After a few minutes, some crystals, resembling big tablesalt crystals (same shape), were precipitating to the bottom of the cup as the water evaporated. She asked me what it was, I told her it could either be Sodium Hypochlorite or Sodium Hydroxide. I decided to test these crystals in a not-too-sophisticated way. I simply poured some "Works" drain cleaner on it (20% HCl. Bad supplies =\). If it were Sodium Hydroxide, it would have bubbled a lot and heated up quickly. If it were Sodium Hypochlorite, it should have bubbled a little bit and warmed up more slowly. I know this isn't a great way of testing, if someone knows a better way please tell me. Anyhow, according to this test, they were Sodium Hypochlorite crystals.

Since there never was really an answer to how to separate the Sodium Hydroxide from the Sodium Hypochlorite, I hope this was helpful. But I still have my doubts about this though, because the crystals must have SOME NaOH in them; it can't just disappear.

<small>[ May 26, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: TariqMujahid ]</small>

[Flake2m]

My idea of the FAE dispersing a CW had a deeper meaning.
This is a hypothetical situation:
Some terroists could detonate several bombs at once in a busy are such as a market place. The bombs aren't designed to kill, just to create mayhem & chaos, they are stratedgically (I can't spell it) placed so they make most of the people near where the bombs went off running into a large crowded area (like herding cattle into a pen) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .

Then phase two of the plan comes into effect. A large device containing CW agents is detonated into the now highly populated area :( .
Some of the people that survived the first set of blasts are now gassed alive as well as anyone else in the vicinity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[TariqMujahid]

Have you ever seen the movie "Air Force One" ? When the terrorists first hijacked the plane, one of the first things they did was have someone in the back throw a smokebomb. The passengers thought there was a fire, so they all began running to the front of the plane. The terrorists were waiting in the front of the plane and began gunning down the passengers. It's the same concept, of herding people into one area, and I guess the same could apply to the situation you speak of. Animals are pyrophobic. When you are touched by fire, you go into freak-out mode. That's why you saw people jumping out of the 100th floor of the Twin Towers; better the fall than the fire! Anyhow, using simple smoke bombs or a time-ignited molitov cocktail could cause that same amount of panic for a lot less money =).

[10fingers]

This whole thread is just bad news for the Forum.
On the one hand I agree with information being freely available but then theres a thing called DRAWING UNNECESSARY ATTENTION.
All it would take is for some media asshole to read this and decide to make a story about it on the 6:00 news. Goodbye forum!
I know that 99.99% of the people here are not seriously inclined to make any of this stuff. The media dummys don't know that!
Explosives and most weapons have many other uses besides killing or injuring people. Chemical weapons do not.
Is this a Forum for positive education or for terrorist wannabes?

<small>[ May 31, 2002, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]</small>

[Celtick]

I don’t agree, this forum is all about providing and discussing knowledge that’s not randomly available. We don’t give instructions on making Phosgene bombs, we’re looking at synthesis and the theory of dispersing chemical weapons.
Most of the information comes from patents that are available to everyone, linking or quoting them probably wont get the forum closed. Its almost the same as the newspapers mentioning HMTD and its easy manufacture, why not post a link at the end of the article immediately :D

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> As we've said many times before, a forum like this almost certainly has a government following already, but the law prohibits interfering.
Since this is a theoretical discussion board, and is also very much pro USA (e.g. the former Tariq Mujahid), I wonder under what grounds the feds might conceive to interfere with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">And how many forum members are seriously making HE’s like HMX or CL-20? As for the use of explosives there only made for one thing; destruction. It’s the same with Chemical Weapons there only made for destruction of (bacterial) life forms, (Chemical Weapons evolved from insect-killing chemicals) Its just a matter of how you use them.

[megalomania]

The Forum is, was, and always shall be a place for discussions of any scientific matter. As I have said before, pure science has no right or wrong, no morality, no good or evil. It is a tool. It is only how science is used that these matters come into play. There is of course a line between theoretical discussion and the beginnings of outright plans. As long as there is a Constitution, the theoretical discussion will continue. As long as I am around, and the rest of the mods, there will be no plans.

My social barometer tells me that the more controversial I am, the more I know I am doing the right thing. If I was a fed, I would be like to know what theoretical ideas people like us have so they can see if they have thought of that before. If I was a member of the media, I would not need this thread to paint us black, our mere name does it for most people. The media would never take the time to view the information or to get to know the people inside. Publicity, as they say, is publicity, and I will take it all.

Ironically we have to weed out the bad to allow the good to talk freely. I will be the first to admit that The Forum is not nearly as open and free as it may seem, but that is simply to allow the controversial discussions to continue in the most intelligent manner. On how many other bulletin boards do the posters even progress beyond black powder and gasoline bombs? How many other scientific boards heckle and disparage the mere mention of explosives or chemical weapons?

I am proud to be a member of the Explosives and Weapons Forum because we have a unique place that is open, free, and responsible. When we go too far I will know, and I will stop it. For now, I hear the world and it says we went too far long ago. But the world is not responsible; the world is controlled by a few fearful voices. I, we all, know better than to trust the herd. For me, knowledge is true power, and I suspect for many of you as well. The Forum, and its members, is the best there is. Let us keep the spark of freedom and knowledge alive in our small corner of cyberspace.

[nbk2000]

Damn mega! You almost inspired me to start waving a flag. :D

But that's just an invitation for the ATF to call you a militia member and shoot first. :p

We're the best (and only) site of our kind. Period. I challenge ANYONE to point out another site that even begins to approach ours in content or quality. You can't.

[Machiavelli]

Mr Samosa, I could make a very long post about what exactly you did wrong but to make it short, try to learn some basic chemistry before posting such ridiculous shit as "Somehow, the 3 Oxygens must be replaced by a Halogen and the Hydrogens gotten rid of...".

Molecular model sets are nice to visualize certain reactions and molecules but chemistry doesn't work just by taking away an oxygen and attaching one of these green halogen balls.

IT'S FUCKING KEWL!

Now from dumbness back to destruction, mass destruction that is.

NBK, I just read a document about gulf war illness that stated that a major health problem for the US forces in Iraq was a lung infection caused by a mixtue of very fine desert sand and pigeon shit.
Do you know some possible shit candidates? I'm afraid your darling gas gangrene isn't suited for lung infection, since there's too much oxygen around for anaerobic bacteria, but apparently bat shit can cause similar inhalative inflammations, know anything else?

I'd say take a mixture of wet shit and powdered silica, put it in a ball mill for a while, dry the resulting sludge 1. with silica gel under vacuum, mill again and you're finished. What do you think?
If it works, it means cheap bw-agent in bulk :)
The stuff may not be super efficient but it should be able to cause some problems...

<small>[ July 10, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

[MrSamosa]

Thankyou for the flame Machiavelli. But unfortunately, insults are not very helpful, nor is saying "take some basic chemistry before posting dumb shit like..." I admit, my terminology is not perfect, and that was written late at night. What would REALLY be helpful is if you corrected my errors, told me what I did wrong, etc. You say "I could make a very long post about what exactly you did wrong but to make it short"...come on, don't be lazy, please write it all out. How else should I learn? Yes, I could and soon will be taking an entire chemistry course; but that post was based off of very basic knowledge of chemistry I've gotten from that Organic Chemistry Outline I downloaded.

Sorry to chastise a moderator, but all he gave was a flame and nothing particularly useful.

<small>[ July 10, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[Machiavelli]

Well, you've got your PO(OH)3, very dilute of course. So you take it, knock apart the O-P bonding which is very strong by treating it with FeCl3. (Cl)- attacks, throws out (OH)- and forms POCl3 which magicaly isn't destroyed in your dilute acid. Now you go knock apart the O-H bond in an OH group which is extremely strong, too, to form H-Cl (which splits up into H+ and Cl- as soon as it sees some water).
Now that you've managed to transform your rather unreactive phosphoric acid into a highly reactive acid chloride, you let it react with CH3Cl, I suppose you think that the (CH3)+ will attack the POCl3 and throw out a (Cl)- which reacts with the (Cl)- from CH3Cl to form Cl2.

Problem is, what you've been doing is playing puzzle, not chemistry. None of your reaction steps is possible, you destroy strong bonds to form weak ones, your 2. reaction forms one molecule out of 2 negatively charged species and one molecule out of 2 positively charged species.

This explanation is greatly over-simplified, the problem is, you need a basic understanding of chemistry first before trying to plan a synthesis. Stuff like how different elements react, how strong the bonds formed during an reactio are, how many electrons are transferred, how reactive your products are and so on.
You tried to fly a fighter jet before knowing how to switch gears on your bike.

So take your chemistry course, learn from someone who gets paid to teach other people and answer their stupid questions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and then I'll be glad to discuss every synthesis with you, but until then it's useless becaue you lack the understanding why some things do and some things don't work and this isn't the kind of understanding one can get from reading a few posts, no matter how good they are.

[nbk2000]

Lungs aren't the only target for BW. Syphillus in the eye causes ulcerations and blindness. Shouldn't be too hard to find a syphillitic whore to get a culture from. It's a very hardy organism too.

Grind up some silica to a nice dust with the organism embedded and blow it in peoples eyes. It should be a 'sharp' dust to cause irritation and cause people to rub it, thus embedding it in their eyes.

There's some bacteria that lives in the hot springs of Yosemite that cause a 90%+ fatal meningitis that you can get just from simply getting the water on a cut. And it's immune to all antibiotics tested against it. That'd be some nasty shit to inhale.

The hanta (SP? I was almost going to call it "hentai" :p ) virus that killed a lot of people back in the 90's is endemic to the mouse population of the islands off the coast of san diego. And it's transmitted via inhalation of dried mouse shit and urine. Start collecting that and add it to a carrier dust. Death is rapid, usually within 48 hours of symptoms.

MrSamosa, I'll ban you for disrespect of staff if Mach wants it. We don't just pull things out of thin air as an excuse for flaming someone. And you didn't get flamed. If I did it, you'd know what flaming is. You were being corrected.

You don't know jack shit about the chemistry of OPA's or their precursors. Methyl chloride is practically inert to acids and wouldn't react as you assume. If phosphoric acid could be used instead of PCl3, they (the Government) would be using that instead, but they're not.

FeCl2 is too weak to catalyize a reaction. The process uses AlCl3 to convert PCl3 to POCl2. Go read the Merck index, read the patents, JACS citations, Belsteins, and all the other shit and get some understanding under your belt before spewing chemical theory diarrhea.

The Forum isn't a place for learning about general chemical theory. That's what the schools, universities, and libraries are for. Learn there. Here, you'll just get banned for wasting our time. Get it right or get lost.

[MrSamosa]

Alright, sorry for my ignorance when it comes to Organophosphate Chemistry. After reading how the first Organophosphates were synthesized, using Phosphoric Acid and an Alcohol, I got a little excited and spewed some bullshit. Once again, my apologies for this.

NBK- you mentioned grinding up silica to a dusty carrier for a bacteria. I came across this from <a href="http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/produce.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/produce.htm</a> : </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Moreover, virtually all candidate incapacitating agents are solids at room temperature and would require drying and grinding to an inhalable particulate. Given the tendency of many compounds to acquire a static charge and agglomerate, the grinding is a nontrivial manufacturing problem.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I do not know of Silica's properties, but generally speaking: if you grind up a solid without the proper equipment, you won't have a very high quality product, no matter how fine the powder is. Also, a lot of microorganisms are killed from rough handling such as grinding. Certain toxins, Ricin coming to mind, will be detoxified by such handling as well. Just some things to consider for manufacturing.

<small>[ July 11, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[cutefix]

A lot of work related hazards come from the unintentional reduction of gritty matter such as during mining,stone cutting,and even plain chiseling of a certain piece of rock to form into a sculpture.Even if the grit particles are heterogenous in size the danger is still existent from cumulative effect of respiratory ingestion.Therefore in order to protect workers from such occupational hazards;ample protective equipment should be worn by the working individual…
Regarding the disintegration of microbes,it requires higher speeds and a different equipment set up;such as for example ultrasonic devices which are sometimes used in sterilization.
Then I cannot attribute it to just plain grinding similar to the reduction of the particle size of inorganic matter, that microbes can be destroyed as such….
About silica,if it appears in the surroundings in finely devided state,and then breathed in by the individual continiously.The cumulative effect will result in an respiratory disorder known as silicosis.These may result in emphysema and other related lung disorder.
As this gritty insoluble particles take time to kill an individual unless due to suffocation when ingesting large volumes of dusts,its use as a chemical weapon is nearly worthless.A chemical weapon can incapacitate or kill in miniscule amounts.

[nbk2000]

The silica gel itself is merely a carrier for the infectious or toxic agents. As is, it's worthless.

For grinding of biologicals, you'd use a cyclonic air grinder which would denature less than 10% of the agent. These are used to particulate the inhalable medicines used in ashmatic inhalers and such. I've also seen a design that uses opposed ultrasound speakers to create a standing wave that pulverizes materials (non-biological) to inhalable size.

And absorbtion inside of a carrier would protect the agent inside the particules from destruction. Only that on the exterior surface would be destroyed, assuming you don't overheat it during grinding. You do know to keep your shit cooled, right?

An alpha source such as polonium or americium (SP?) dissipates static charges instantly. The amer....whatever...is used in smoke detectors. Tiny amount, but it takes very little to nuetralize static. Also, there's chemical additives that do the same thing. Cling-free spray is one such chemical. Anti-agglomerates are trivial to obtain.

[PYRO500]

Surprisingly enough by adding an alpha emitter to a substance that is sharp and tiny could allow alpha particles witch are normally stopped by the skin to penetrate deeper causing increased risk. I don't know how effective that would be as a radiogenic weapon or if the alpha particles would prove fatal for the bacteria in such small amounts. An idea I had was to combine a highly radioactive substance with another that would make it easily absorbable to key organs that normally are taking in that element or similar compound. I had the idea of something like poisoning a salt supply with curium iodide or something similar, if loosing all their bone marrow dosen't kill them thyroid cancer likely will.

[nbk2000]

I'd think that inhaling radioactive alpha absorbed on silica dust would cause lung cancer. Though we're talking years down the road.

Hmmm...radiological weapon that won't kill till years later. Thousands start dying of lung cancer, the only connection being attending a certain event 5 years previous. Evidence long since gone and discovering who's the responsible party impossible.

Uranium ore is readily obtainable in the US by anyone interested in digging a hole in the south western states. The metallic uranium is easily seperated out by chemical means and emits beta and low energy gamma radiation. That could be converted into an iodide compound for dispersal.

[Machiavelli]

I don't know, something that might have an effect in 5 years doesn't seem very useful to me, it's so hard to integrate that into planning, now that the world has gotten so dynamic.
For me, an actual attack should show an effect after a maximum of 6 months. Of course that doesn't include preparations, but after the gun is built and the trigger pulled I don't want to wait 5 years to find out whether I scored a headshot or just a flesh wound.

[MrSamosa]

Personally, I think delayed results are better for those involved in the chemical/biological strike. Suppose you have immediate frying by the beta and gamma radiation...the victims of the attack will know something is up and go into freak-out mode. Everyone leaves the target area, and the attack is over. Lots of perfectly good radiological powder goes to waste.

BUT, if the effects are delayed... They just go about their normal routines, never suspecting a thing. As far as anyone knows, no crime was committed; unless there are some weirdos who take geiger counters wherever they go.

5 years later, people start dying from lung cancer. Nobody knows what's going on. As NBK said, evidence of any attack is long since gone. Suppose there were an attack at Times Square though... Crowded area, lots of people. Everyone in New York City walks to get where they want and probably pass through Times Square quite often without even thinking about it. 5 years later, they would not remember that event since it's so common to them. Do YOU remember what streets you walked down 5 years ago? Therefore, it's very difficult to establish a specific connection which would greatly hinder any investigation.

[Machiavelli]

MrSamosa, you're not getting my point. Of course you could kill some people that way (if it really works, which you'll find out 5 years later) but what's the use?

You can't use it as a tactical weapon, because it needs years to take effect, you can't use it to terrorize/blackmail effectively, because that means you'd have to reveal your attack and the people can take countermeasures, I just don't see the payoff.

Chemical/Biological weapons like all other weapons weren't built primarily to kill people, but to reach some other objective by killing people, eg deter an attack, defeat enemy forces, terrorize a population so they'll give in to demands, take out important enemy personal and so on.

No matter how improvised your agent is, it'll cost money to produce, you'll risk your health/life producing it, if you're caught you'll get imprisoned or killed and when you die you'll go to hell.
Why should someone risk all that just for killing 50, maybe 100 people?

[nbk2000]

What you lose in the gratification of an immediate body count would be more than compensated for in the psychological terror and uncertainty you'll instill.

Think about it like this:

A terrorist group is willing to use a weapon that doesn't kill for years.

What does this say? It says that they're more interested in the long term than the immediate. They're not looking for glory or fame, but results.

If those results (dead americans) take years, than so be it. It also means they're planning on being around for years, rather than going out in a pyhrric blaze of glory.

Also, if they did this the one time they were discovered, how many times prior have they done it that no one knows about? How many times in the future will they succed in evading detection? Death by a thousand cuts.

Ahhhhh....that's were the psychology comes into play. People start worrying about where they may have been in the past that a terrorist might have used such a weapon, and where in the future another attack may happen. Is the nagging cough from allergies? Or the result of a spreading cancer caused by a terrorists radiological attack on a concert 4 years earlier?

The insidous poison is more feared than the quick bullet. Those who die quick are buried and forgotten. Those who linger on, slowly wasting away, spread fear and rumors far out of proportion to the reality. Especially with television as dominant as it is. 9/11 is pretty much forgotten (sort of), but imagine if those thousands were just now starting to die off in small handfuls as the results of something that happened a year ago.

They know they're doomed, yet they valiantly struggle on. As their numbers dwindle, and the grim specter of Death looms over them, they cry and wail to all their friends and family about how much it hurts as the cancer rots them from the core. This is all captured on TV for others to witness and the fear of death spreads.

Oh sure, there'll be cries for vengance, but who do you attack? The cause of all this sorrow happened years ago. The attackers are long since gone into the obscurity of time.

LOP17: Keep others in suspended terror.

LOP48: Assume formlessness.

PS: There's no counter-measure to radiactive dust in your lungs, just like there's none for asbestos, once it's in there. You're fucked, simple as that.

[pyromaniac_guy]

i dont know if it's SOP to check the lungs of a cancer patient for radioactive contamination, but i would guess it is safe to assume such does NOT normally happen. that being the case you would have to expose a SHIT LOAD of people in a major metropolitain area, especially if it's during a mass gathering such as a sporting even and or new years, as not everyone will be from the same area. the only way the authorities are going to realize that something foul is afoot is when the rate of cancer goes up substantially. acording to the american lung association there were 164,000 new cases of lung cnacer in the us in 2000, and about 160,000 deaths. if you assume NYC represents about 3 percent the countries population, then making a thousand extra ny'ers die of lung cancer would hardly be a blip on the proverbial screen. not to mention the fact that I would find it highly unlikely that you would be able to cause an exposre such that everyone develops symptoms right at the same time. some people will be more susceptable to such enviromental risks than others, some may inhale more particles than others, so, you may end up needing to expose tens or hundreds of thousands of people in order for there to be any connection drawn that the increased cancers are not a fluke occurance...

i think a scheme like this would be much better of for trying to kill in number, and get away with it undetected, not to cause terror

[piggarro99]

TO NBK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> There's some bacteria that lives in the hot springs of Yosemite that cause a 90%+ fatal meningitis that you can get just from simply getting the water on a cut. And it's immune to all antibiotics tested against it. That'd be some nasty shit to inhale.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">a little help for you if i may.

the organisms that live in the lake are a small type of trillobite bacteria and cause a variant of meningitus.

this is called meningicoccal sceptacaemia.

if you want something deadly then look no further than the common spider mokeys in the african region. they have been credited to starting the ebola virus 4 years ago.

also may i create a new thread on some of natures poisonous substances that you can find in the uk, dont want to get banned for starting a thread as a newbie

[Machiavelli]

The only monkeys that start virii are braindead outlook users who get "I love you" mails or maybe genetic scientists as which spider monkeys don't qualify imho, please be a bit more scientific.
Also what do you expect us to do, grind some monkeys with silica? At least they're easily available, we just need to find that African region. And look no further, for a lot of other poisonous animals and plants we just need to take a closer look at the southern hemisphere region, no further, just next to our northern hemisphere region.
Please don't post information which is (maybe) useful for African forumites only and please be more specific with your regions.

You may start your thread but if it doesn't match my quality standards I'll delete it (without banishment).

[piggarro99]

ok then, i would like to apologise for my last post,
the ebola virus is most rampant in the following areas.

The Gabon Regions which share the nothern borders of the congo.
the republic of the congo.
the ivory coast.
zaire.

the idea that i wished to spread was that you could happily protect your self against the air-borne (once humanly manifestered) virus by wearing a saftey mask while leaving an infected corpse.

also i am a great fan of the peter jackson film Braindead and feel that i can relate to lionel, but find myself searching for the name of lionels fat uncle. (Bitter- That film is hilarious. Especially the scene with the lawnmower.)

[a short list of latin names of toxic plants isn't sufficient for a new topic, anyone can pull that much out of a cheap search engine, minimum would have been plant name in english and latin, name and effect of its toxins and maybe decent sources]

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Bitter ]</small>

[PrimoPyro]

Whoa hang on a second here. Mr Machiavelli, if you would please do me the favor of re-iterating your original post in which you stated:

FeCl3 reacts with H3PO4 to form POCl3. To all of my knowledge this is not true. Please let me be wrong and say how can this be so! POCl3 is such a valuble chemical in *other* areas of synthetic research (Vilsmeier formylation! Hell yeah!) and is um well more than suspicious to buy. H3PO4 can be found everywhere, even locked up in gypsum salts if you like tha all natural routes.

So back to my question: How does this proceed? The P-O bond is incredibly strong, much stronger than S=O bonds even, and C-C bonds, almost everything I can think of. To my knowledge, shouldn't the opposite reaction strongly predominate? POCl3 + Fe(OH)3 --&gt; H3PO4 + FeCl3. This is an exothermic reaction, and the other is endothermic is it not?

I simply cannot believe it. It's its its like one of the holy damn grails of clan chem! If you explain this to me I'll be forever gracious if it indeed works. It will make a wonderful report back home.

PrimoPyro

[MrSamosa]

Primo- that wasn't what Mach was saying. That's what I, the n00b-to-chemistry, was saying...and he was correcting me. I was suggesting a way to get Dimethylphosphonyl Chloride from Phosphoric Acid. I'd gotten a little ahead of myself, after reading how the first Organophosphates were made by reacting Alcohols with Phosphoric Acid. I had a BS synthesis I made for a topic, but I requested that it be deleted.

Still, I'm convinced that Phosphoric Acid could have some use when it comes to Organophosphates...then again, I'm still lacking much of that basic knowledge of reactions and bonds Mach was referring to. I'm getting there though :) .

[PrimoPyro]

Ah I see. Well congratulations on your uptaking and good luck. You will get to where you want to be, I promise you. Just read as much as you can and ask questions when you don't understand.

Chemistry is the science where the impossible is continuously happening, so our rules that are made have all sorts of acceptions to them here and there, modifications to the science are made daily. So its easy to get confused at times.

If you happen to need help understanding anything, basics or advanced, feel free to email me with your questions. I won't turn you away for not knowing. Good luck! :)

PrimoPyro

[EDIT]Phosphorous acid is very useful for organic chemistry reactions. Trialkyl phospites are suitable substitutes for trialkylphosphines in the Wittig Reaction, for example. Trialkyl phosphates make wonderful alkylating agents for phenolic functions and amines.

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: PrimoPyro ]</small>

[MrSamosa]

Whoohoo! I think I found something quite good online: <a href="http://pmeiers.bei.t-online.de/p-mfp.htm" target="_blank">http://pmeiers.bei.t-online.de/p-mfp.htm</a> . It deals with the synthesis and history of Monofluorophosphates...which have use as Nerve Agents. Sarin and Soman fit under this category. It also deals a lot with their suggested use as mouthproofing agents to be put in toothpaste (ahh, this would make it so much easier for us...but bad for the teeth). They also mention Dialkyl Fluorophosphates, such as Diisopropyl Fluorophosphate. It has a lot of patent numbers in there if you're interested. What I got out of it though, was a way to make Organophosphates without Phosphorus Trichloride.

Willy Lange prepared Difluorophosphoric Acid by reacting Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5...I can swear I saw this in the gardening section at Home Depot.) with Ammonium Fluoride or by pouring it into Hydrofluoric Acid. By heating Difluorophosphoric Acid in a dilute sodium hydroxide solution (not sure HOW dilute...this can be figured out later I guess), one Fluoride ion is lost, forming Monofluorophosphate salt (among them the sodium, ammonium, potassium, silver monofluorophosphates). By heating the silver salt with Methyl or Ethyl Iodide, the corresponding dialkyl ester is formed. This is a Cholinesterase Inhibitor and did poison the original makers (Lange and one of his students), although they survived.

If it were me though, I would use Isopropyl Iodide, since the Isopropyl group is more persistent in the body than the Methyl group, which is more persistent than the Ethyl group. I imagine that other salts could be used instead of the silver salt, since silver tends to be expensive.

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Phosphourus Pentoxide is a very powerful desicant, and also very corrosive. You will NOT find it in the aisle of Home Depot (though I wish I could). You're likely thinking of either phosphoric acid, or phosphorous fertilizers.

[vulture]

Fertilizers often have indications of P2O5 content, but that does not mean they actually contain P2O5. Usually it contains phosphate, which is then calculated back to P2O5 content. Don't ask me why they use this stupid system....

I've stumbled on something interesting concerning phosphorus. Some mole poisoning flares contain calciumphosphate and Aluminium which reacts to form calciumphosphide and aluminiumoxide. The calciumphosphide reacts with air moisture to form PH3, an extremely lethal gas. Also, PH3 and Ca3P2 could be useful in synthesis of phosphor compounds.

[Southern Warrior]

While we are talking about the chemicals needed for nerve gasses, I thought I'd bring it up that Dimethylamine can be used in the sythesis for GA (Tabun). It can be found in Agricultural suppliers if you look in the right place. I think it is used as a fungicide and a pesticide.

[MrSamosa]

On the note of Dimethylamine, it's also found in some Detergents for dishes...along with 50 other ingredients mixed in =\. I have not seen it though in pesticides/fungicides yet, probably because I have not looked. Next time I go to the gardening store, I will keep an eye out for it.

But, for even better precursors, look no further than Fire extinguishers! Often, they contain Triethyl Phosphate, Trimethyl Phosphate, and other phosphates of the like. They're mixed in with other things like "nuisance dust"; but it seems like they can be easily separated.

[Southern Warrior]

Dimethylamine can most likely be found in the cheaper pesticides. Look for something that says "Active Ingredients" and it will say Salt of Dimethylamine.

Something else I remembered, I seem to recall reading somewhere (can't remember where though...) that Tabun, when stored as a unitary CW, that the container must be coated/plated with silver.

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Southern Warrior ]</small>

[TheBear]

This might sound a little kewl and VERY improvised but I was thinking:
Wouldn't very fine powdered NaOH (ballmilled) be pretty dangerous? (Not in class with a CW i know) but in total lack of resources (can be found in a well stocked grocery store). I was thinking that you might want to disperse (right word?) the powder using an explosive charge.

[nbk2000]

While lye dust would certainly be dangerous to anyone exposed to it, it doesn't have any staying power. Lye absorbs water from the air very quickly and, once wet, reacts with atmospheric CO₂ to form harmless carbonate. The finer the particles, the quicker this will happen. Could happen in just a few seconds in high humidity with micron sized powder. That, and the inevitable caking, prevents its use as such.

Though you could certainly spray it as a course stream or spray on a target to mutilate them.

Also, the phosphate used in fire extinguishers is Ammonium Triphosphate AKA fertilizer. Trialkyl phosphates are toxic and corrosive, definately not something you'll find in common consumer products like that.

[MrSamosa]

Perhaps in times of shortage, using NaOH could perhaps be a decent chemical agent. It clearly causes skin damage, it's painful, and finely divided crystals could perhaps float around somewhat easily. However, would could be even better, is if you just buy the Aerosolized Oven Cleaner. NaOH spray. Ready for dispersal at the press of a button. Ouch!

On another note, while looking around Best Buy for parts for a new computer, I came across a can of compressed gas for blowing dust (You can find this at any computer store, it's very common). As I habitually do, I looked at its label for any warnings and its ingredients. My eyes were attracted by "Difluoroethane." I had heard of Dichloroethane, Dichloromethane, but not Difluoroethane...although I suspected that such a chemical could exist. Then I thought of its use as a precursor to chemical weapon...

Some of the main decomposition products of Difluoroethane, aside from oxides of Carbon and Water, include Hydrogen Fluoride and Carbonyl Fluoride. While the HF is already toxic, what I am interested in is the COF2. The MSDS for Carbonyl Fluoride, or what I like to call "Fluorophosgene," mentions that it is, "Highly Toxic. Causes serious Lung Damage with a delayed effect." Another MSDS mentions that it causes "respiratory tract burns, skin burns, and eye burns."

I'm unable to find very detailed information regarding its LD50, but the best I can do is offer an LC50: 360 ppm/1 hour (Rat). Due to the fact that is hygroscopic and has a very low boiling point (-83 C), it may not be the best Chemical Agent. But of course, you don't use agents in their pure form- you mix it in with other chemicals to make it better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[Helos]

Today I heard something like this on the swedish radio:
"A new classified report says that chemichals for making biological and chemical weapons are readily available here in sweden. The methods for making the substances that can be used as a weapon of massdestruction can be performed by everyone who has basic knowledge in chemistry."
After this report I guess that this chemicals
will be restricted, which is a good thing
indeed.
I dont know what chemicals they are thinking of that makes biological weapons, but its probably bacterias they mean in this case.

For some years ago everyone could buy very dangerous bacterias like anthrax or ebolavirus from labaratories around the world.
Unfortunately (or whatever you think!) it is
obviously still possible to get something like
this.

I myself has a little hard to see a random person with basic knowledge in chemistry perform this synthesis or bacteriacultivation because without the proper knowledge and more important alot of safetygears and a very good laboratory they will probably get killed theirself fooling around with some extremly dangerous substances.

I also ofcourse wonder very much what the report are talking about (wanna read =)) for substances, nerve gas, or what?

[zeocrash]

ok my grandad used to work on britains CW program in WW2. He was part of a team that used to design and test chemical weapons. testing involved gassing themselves with the substance and noting the effects. one particulaly interesting gas caused the victim's pupils to temporarily close up, making them temporarily blind. I'll ask him if he still has any of his notes relating to his CW research.

[OUAGADOUGOU]

This is slightly off topic, but what do you all know about synthetizing chloropicrin by the nitration of chloroform?
I remember Cutefix breefly mentioning this in some old thread.
What would be the optimal concentration of the HNO3, since besides chloropicrin the reaction could also yeald nitro compounds, no?
like: NO2CCl3 + HNO3 --&gt; NO2CCl2-O-NO2 + HCl
This would be an interesting addition to all the CW information accumulated on the forum.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lazy fucks like yourself need to learn that the forum isn't here to answer your questions on an instantaneous basis.

You also need to learn to search the Forum before asking a question because the answer to your question his already here...if you can be bothered to SEARCH FOR IT!

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Iv4]

Oh Christ... :rolleyes:

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[zeocrash]

i found an interesting military field manual on the web, explaining not just about the compositions of chemical weapons, but what factors make a good chemical / bio weapon, how best to disperse them and what they are best used for.
<a href="http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/army/fm/3-9/fm3-9.pdf" target="_blank">http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/army/fm/3-9/fm3-9.pdf</a>

[megalomania]

A weapon using NaOH would not be on the same caliber as a traditional "chemical weapon" but it could suffice as a weapon of panic. I was once on the recieving end of a gust of NaOH vapor after a blast, and believe me my fraction of a second exposure is more than I ever want to repeat.

A saturated solution of sodium hydroxide exposed to a small explosive blast would immediately be vaporized and dispersed. A more complex scheme of releasing pressurized gas into a bottle of the solution exiting an atomizer tip would work as well. The most immediate effect is on the eyes, that being pain and lost of it. Later the base starts eating at the skin. With eyes squeezed shut the victims would be milling around, when they realize their skin is on fire the panic sets in. This would be classed as a low lethality weapon of mass confusion, rather like tear gas but with far more severe consequences for those exposed as eye damage could be permanent.
The use of such a compound may serve to increase the efectiveness of an explosive blast in the immediate area. The effects would quickly be dispersed, as nbk mentioned, and of course would pose little risk for first responders when they eventually arrive. However, EMT, fire, and police responders would not know what they are dealing with. In this day an age they wouls most likely assume it's a nerve gas and act appropriatly (flee the scene and act like they never got the call).

A more effective use of such a weapon would be to place several small charges among an area likely to be densly packed with passers by, like a marathon for example. Imagine the first small detonation dispursing the vapor into the crowd.
1) Everyone hears the blast and stops to listen.
2) Those exposed to the vapor react to the gas clutching their eyes and wailing
3) Those in the immediate area begin to back away
4) A second or third blast starts the same effect
5) Too many groups begin retreating in different directions
6) Panic sets in, the collective mindset is bombs are everywhere mixed with nerve gas
7) The crush of bodies to escape is impossible because there are so many and nobody knows where it's safe.
8) Panic and mass hysteria sets in, thousands are crushed under the herd. Half the people imagine they have been exposed to nerve gas.
9) People shable homeward wracked with nausa and pain as they think they are dieing.

Enough hypothetical red teaming for the day. From this conjecture one can see how a malovolent entity could conceviably use people's fear of unknown chemicals to its fullest effect with very limited expenditure of capital. People assume the worst, a firecracker blast becomes a bomb, NaOH vapors become nerve gas, panic and hysteria does the rest.

[MrSamosa]

Ahh, this talk about vaporized NaOH being used as a weapon recalls a memory back from my Anarchist-Cookbook K3WL days... I recklessly combined NaOH, Water, and Aluminum Foil in a bottle and shook it a bit. I turned around to cap the container of NaOH, and when I looked at the bottle again, it was about ready to burst.

Anyhow, I was too close to the bottle as it exploded, and it sprayed a caustic, black, oily mixture on my arm, neck, and face. Of course, I wasn't a complete dumbass, so I didn't sit there screaming (as panicky people in masses would do)... I ran to a sink to clean myself off before I jumping in the shower :) . In the end, I only had mild burns near my eye (Fortunately not in my eye) and on my neck.

To the point now; this could be a weaponized form of NaOH instead of the simple powder. While it is extremely KeWL, I still don't think that it should be overlooked. The oily caustic liquid was very difficult to wipe off, and was quite sticky. Not only that, it would be propelled much further by a blast than simple powder.

Now, in line with weaponizing Chemicals, here is my idea for improving upon the original concept... Simply use NaOH dissolved in water <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[Sparky]

Zeocrash: Blindness (via closing of the iris) is a typical symptom of acetylcholinesterase inhibiters. The eye nerves are simply more sensitive to these inhibiters than most nerves. In WW2 the British and there allies knew almost nothing about nerve gasses until the near the end. When they came across massive German stashes of Tabun they didn't know what it was.

I got this information from "The 13th Element, the sordid tale of murder, fire and Phosphorus". I scanned some of the book for you. If you want I can scan the section on antidotes, but I didn't think it was necessary. Watch out, the're kind of big and the server is currently kinda crippled:

<a href="http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg162small.jpg" target="_blank">http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg162small.jpg</a> - Mentions about when the British were testing the tabun they found.

<a href="http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20166small.jpg" target="_blank">http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20166small.jpg</a> - How nerve gasses work

<a href="http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20167small.jpg" target="_blank">http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20167small.jpg</a> - How nerve gasses work cont'd.

<a href="http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20168small.jpg" target="_blank">http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20168small.jpg</a> - Some people are more sensitive to nerve gas then others...(an anecdote about a guy who got poisoned)

<a href="http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20172-3small.jpg" target="_blank">http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/pg%20172-3small.jpg</a> - toxicity tables and vague info on synthesis of sarin.

A_W: You asked a question a long time ago (where to get parrafin for hydrogen sulfide production). Of course it's used in candles but it is also sold in Canada in big blocks as "parawax" in home hardware.

On an unrelated note (since Mega's email doesn't seem to work): The same hoster who is hosting my page has offered to host a mirror of the forum for free. I thought it might be good to have an out of the US (in Canada) host.

And another (since NBK doesn't like to give out his email): I download the RTBP's and they seem to be corrupted or something. Of course I changed it to .pdf. I tried downloading it multiple times just to make sure. Acrobat keeps opening and saying, "This file is damaged but is being repaired." when first opened, then it says, "There was an error processing a page. There was a problem reading this document (117)." Then it opens another window and tells me, again, "There was a problem reading this document (117)."
I remember reading someone else was having trouble with this file too...

[nbk2000]

Try it now.

Be SURE to use the link in this post, because prior posts will still have the old URL in them.

[MrSamosa]

Sparky- do you think you could be so kind as to upload the whole book on Phosphorus? I've seen it in the local bookstore, and it's been on my wish list ever since...but your friend MrSamosa is very stingy with his money. :)

[OUAGADOUGOU]

Sorry about that NBK :o
But I really couldn`t find any info on manufacturing CS by nitrating chloroform. I know the procedure on making this by chlorinating nitromethane, I have the patent. t would be fun though to know a nother method from different precursors.Im not asking you all to do extensive searches in the literature, just in case you happen to know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[Sparky]

MrSamosa: You ask a lot, but yes I will scan and try to OCR the whole book this weekend.

NBK: The file works well now. Just to let you know it doesn't work with Acrobat 4.0 (error decoding the file or something). I had to upgrade to 5.0 but no big deal.

[nbk2000]

Actually, that's the point. You're SUPPOSED to have the latest version of anything anyways, unless the newest version is an overbloated POS (like XP, compared to my '98 :) )

As for nitrating chloroform for PS, don't bother. It's very wasteful of both. Stick with the nitromethane/pool chlorinator mix.

[redbull]

I cant seem to find this anywhere... I searched for a good 15 minutes?
an anyone point me in the right direction?

"Read my april 5th post where I detail Phosgene Oxime, and later give patent and bookz references for it's manufacture and toxicology."

[tiac03]

I don't know if it was said before, so i will keep this short.

Anyone standing downwind of someone burning piles of poison Ivy is going to regret it...

Indians used to use it that way. they would set piles of the stuff on fire and any enemy attacking down wind would get a big surprise. (I think even dry it works)

So mix some into a smoke screen composition and set alight where ever it so pleases you...


-keep it simple.

[nbk2000]

The burning of poison ivy/sumac is a primitive form of CW, as the urushiol (the irritant oil) is volatilized by burning, forming a mist of the recondensed oil droplets in the smoke.

If you know what the stuff does to skin, imagine what it does to lung tissue! :eek: :D

Redbull, you need to figure out how to use the information provided to you. It's all there for you to find...:rolleyes:

[teshilo]

As quick and dirty methods for create rudimentary form CW ,use molded sulfur with red pepper and small quantity slow burning incendiary.Yes, in ideas :cool: with use burning sulfur as simple cw not new ,his discussed in thread TIM in this section.For more nice weaponization: you can mold small pellets coat it white P and insert this in plastic bag with water .Small charge flash powder :D help use this device...
P.S Poison ivy/sumac -rare stuff .

[Roy Paci]

Excuse me if I am off topic.

I would like to resume the discussion about bacteria... There has been said something wrong and something right, but it was still very good point. Bacterias are effectively a very useful weapon and could be considered even easy-to-make, although you have to consider that the most dangerous one have been defeated and erased from the world. But you could still infect someone with an emolithic(pretty bastard) bacteria with a staphylococcus pyogenes passed through a mutating process.
This does not even require high biotech skills or big lab facilities. You would need nothing more than agar, sugars, growing factors and liofilized blood. To proceed you should be able to touch with a cotton probe the throat glands of a person who suffers from a particular type of illness that brings kind of bacterial plaque(not "plague"). Once you have been able too make your own bacteria colture you should act to mutate by changing his phisical/chemical enviroment. Once you get the desidered strain you would be able infect anyone you can get in touch with. Giving him fever, throatache and whatsoever the bacteria you choose to cultivate gives. You could even get a antibiotic-resistant strain, that could be very dangerous.

If getting someone ill seems to be a simple thing to do for a medium skilled person, getting Mister bacillus antracis is not that simple, not even thinkable for a person who is not accreditated to the medical-scientific international community(a doctor who work in an university, for ex.). Getting it to produce sphorae requires alredy a high skilled biotechnologist.
It's proved that 100kg of anthrax sphorae spread by a plane over a big metropoly like New York or Sao Paulo could prime a world pandemic able to erase human kind from the earth. Even a pandemic which would cut the world population down to 10% woul rappresent the end of the mankind.
Even pox virus could be used, with increased difficulties.
Botulism requires a biotechnologist with three pairs of balls instead of just one. And the bacteria himself is not that nasty. His toxin is. The need of extracting it increases the number of balls the required biotech needs to carry the process out. It could be used to contaminate water lines as the deadly threshold is fucking low.

Is some one interested in continuing this topic(Especially the first part of it).

Sorry I annoyed someone and sorry for my english.

[nbk2000]

It's proved that 100kg of anthrax sphorae ...could prime a world pandemic able to erase human kind from the earth.


Problem with that statement is that anthrax is NOT transmittable person-to-person, which would be a requirement for a pandemic to happen.

Anyways, this is a thread about CHEMICAL weapons, not biological, which is another thread, so please post your discussions in the appropriate thread from now on, eh? :)

[WMD]

Just one reply before going back on topic :)

Excuse me if I am off topic.
This does not even require high biotech skills or big lab facilities. You would need nothing more than agar, sugars, growing factors and liofilized blood.

The hard part is not growing that stuff, the hard part is turning it into a useful weapon. If I have to run around infecting people by hand I might as well plug them with a kitchen knife.

[Roy Paci]

Ok sorry, from now on I'll post in the right forum. I posted here cause I read, on this thread, messages about bioweaps posted few years ago. :(

Please, allow me just to reply to your comments in this thread for simpler comprehension of other users.


NBK says: "Problem with that statement is that anthrax is NOT transmittable person-to-person"

Sorry. Maybe round bioterrorism across US has been said, worldwide that anthrax was not contagious. False.

There are three strains of bacillus antracis: cutaneous, from ingestion, from inhalation. All of these types ARE CONTAGIOUS.
The inhalatory one is F***ING CONTAGIOUS, but fortununately is a zoonosis and so is the less common.

WMD:

If you get a good amount of sphoraes of a bacteria(you should be good at handling bacts), and you are mad, you can pack them around a light charge manufactured with particular attentions and get them spread through a room.
You could even put a colony of bacts on the edge of someone's glass using a cottonfiock, is a work for intelligence agents. Fantasy is the limit, once you get the knowledge. ;)

[nbk2000]

Roy, you're confusing the means of original infection with the means of inter-personal transmission.

A cow with pulmonary anthrax is NOT going to pass it on to the other cows by coughing out anthrax spores. It's not ebola, nor the plague, or even the common cold.

Initial infections come through contact with infected soil containg the spores, inhalation of spores in the form of contaminated dust, or ingestion of contaminated feed containing infected soil, or contact with the oozing sores of cutaneous anthrax.

So, yes, it's technically possible to transmit cutaneous anthrax but, unlike cattle in a stock pen, how likely is it that someone is going to rub their skin against someone elses pustulant black sores?

:rolleyes:

Not a very speedy way to start a pandemic, is it? :p

[raptor1956]

Methyl Bromide. They use it for sterilising the ground in greenhouses. You have to wear a gasmask when using it, & even with a mask on, I coughed until I puked. This led me to wonder what the effects would be if you poured it into a car's vents?

[FUTI]

Teshilo I belive that similar kind of CW was used in Krim war and that is very ancient use of it. And I liked the urushiol or poison ivy idea. Also I remembered the first use of biological weapons...Mongols used to cataput into the sieged town body of deceased from plague to infect the population.

[croc]

I didn’t want to stat a new thread and this one seemed the most relevant to post in but I found a great new website which gives a lot of information on chemical weapons.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4239/chemweapons/cwindex.html

[NightStalker]

Yawn....:rolleyes:

That site is just a rehash of the stuff that you can find in any decent encylopedia.

[nbk2000]

This is what the EPA says about water-soluble polymers: (red- my emphasis)

'High Molecular Weight Polymers in the New Chemicals Program'

There are three categories or types of High Molecular Weight (HMW, >10,000 daltons) polymers typically reviewed by the New Chemicals Program: soluble, insoluble/non-water absorbing ("non-swellable"), and water absorbing ("swellable"). EPA has a concern for potential fibrosis of the lung or other pulmonary effects that may be caused by inhalation of respirable particles of water-insoluble HMW polymers. The toxicity may be a result of "overloading" the clearance mechanisms of the lung. EPA also has concerns for water absorbing polymers, based on data showing that cancer was observed in a 2-year inhalation study in rats on a HMW water-absorbing polyacrylate polymer. Each of the three types is treated differently as indicated below:

c. Water absorbing (swellable) polymers. For these substances the Agency makes the "may present an unreasonable risk" determination with concerns for fibrosis and cancer, based upon water absorption properties. Concerns are associated with substances that absorb their weight (or greater) in water. The primary reference for Agency concerns for this class of polymers is TSCA 8(e)-1795, submitted by the Institute for Polyacrylate Absorbents (IPA), which indicated that high molecular weight polyacrylate polymers caused lung neoplasms in animal studies.

From http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Chemtrails/Dyn-O-Gel.html

These are available for under $8/pound, when bought in bulk, and are millable into fine powders.

Idea would be to produce an inhalable powder, disperse it, and either the particles immediately swell up inside the lungs, causing suffocation, or they permanently lodge in there, leading to long-term lung disease and eventual cancer.

[Gammaray1981]

Apparently some mercury compounds are very lethal (LD50 / Phenylmercuric Acetate = 22mg/Kg), and are easily converted to aerosol form.

It would appear that compounding elemental mercury (toxic in and of itself, but reasonably safe) with an organic part causes it to penetrate skin and lungs far more effectively. Equally, it seems that any organically-based clothing (cotton, silk, etc), will form no barrier at all to most airborne organomercuric compounds.

The production of such a chemical is beyond my knowledge right now, but it's worth a thought.

[FullMetalJacket]

Oh, yeah, organic mercury compounds are a real bitch. There was a great thread about dimethylmercury a little while back. Should still be in the first couple of pages.

[wolfy9005]

Nicotine in around 40% concentration. Absorbs through the skin. Also Hydroflouoic acid, a small amount would make their day a bit worse.

[nbk2000]

Stunningly original! :rolleyes:

[ciguy007]

The (much) earlier post about poinsettias being very toxic is a myth. The initial literature described an elderly woman with multiorgan failure who was thought to have been exposed to poinsettia and subsequently died. In fact, poinsettia has only mildly toxic effects, mostly skin irritation due to the latex-like materials in its milky sap. If ingested, it can cause some mild irritation of the mouth and throat but nothing even remotely life-threatening. It turns out that mistletoe is also an essentially harmless plant. Just thought I correct the error about poinsettia.

[teshilo]

In text related to military toxicology i read about various mixed type CW ... Planned for increasing effect various CW agents with radiological agents like what used in"dirty bomb" ...If i find these file i upload it to ftp or rapidshare...

[Crazylover]

Hi men, I don't speak very well english, but I can tell you a lot of true and effective informations about tear gas and similar product as I work many years in a company producing Military and Police Tear Gas :

Most common Tear Gaz used today are :
CS ( ortho-chlorobenzalmalononitrile ( = 2-chlorobenzalmalononitrile ))
Capsaicin ( Capsicum extract )
Piperine ( Pepper extract )

Formely, another very good product was used:
Allyl Isothiocyanate ( Mustard extract )

Allyl Isothiocyanate is very effective as it's target are eyes, skin and the respiratory system. But high concentration if inhaled can burn the lungs.
Allyl Isothiocyanate is miscible in Dichloromethane ( Methylene chloride ).


Other very effective Chemical :
Chloroacetone ( available directly from Chemical Supplier )

Bromoacetone:

Here is a synthesis for Bromoacetone :

1. Procedure
A 5-l., three-necked, round-bottomed flask is provided with an efficient mechanical stirrer, a 48-cm. Allihn reflux condenser, a thermometer, and a 500-cc. separatory funnel, the stem of which reaches nearly to the bottom of the flask (Note 1).
Through the separatory funnel are introduced 1.6 l. of water, 500 cc. of c. p. acetone, and 372 cc. of glacial acetic acid. The stirrer is started and the temperature of the water bath is raised to 70–80°, so that the mixture in the flask is at about 65° (Note 2). Then 354 cc. (7.3 moles) of bromine is carefully added through the separatory funnel. The addition, which requires one to two hours, is so regulated as to prevent the accumulation of unreacted bromine (Note 3). As a rule the solution is decolorized in about twenty minutes after the bromine has been added. When the solution is decolorized, it is diluted with 800 cc. of cold water, cooled to 10°, made neutral to Congo red with about 1 kg. of solid anhydrous sodium carbonate, and the oil which separates is collected in a separatory funnel and dried with 80 g. of anhydrous calcium chloride. After drying, the oil is fractionated and the fraction boiling at 38–48°/13 mm. is collected. The yield is 470–480 g. (50–51 per cent of the theoretical amount). It may be used without further purification for the preparation of acetol (p. 5); but, if a purer product is desired, the above product is refractionated and the fraction boiling at 40–42°/13 mm. is collected. The yield is 400–410 g. (43–44 per cent of the theoretical amount).
The higher-boiling fraction contains a mixture of isomeric dibromoacetones.
2. Notes
1. The apparatus should be set up with the flask in a large container (such as a 14-qt. galvanized pail) to be used as a water bath, and under a well-ventilated hood, as both the bromine and bromoacetone are powerful irritants to the skin and mucous membranes.
2. It is necessary to warm the reaction mixture to this temperature to ensure a smooth reaction
3. It is not advisable to have too great an excess of bromine present at any time, as it sometimes reacts suddenly with great violence.
3. Discussion
Bromoacetone has been prepared by the electrolysis of a mixture of acetone and hydrobromic acid,1 and by more orthodox methods of bromination: the addition of bromine to acetone dissolved in ten times its weight of water;2 the addition of bromine to acetone in which marble is suspended;3 the addition of bromine to acetone, water, and concentrated hydrochloric acid;4 and the introduction of bromine by means of a current of air into cold acetone.5
A procedure similar to the one described above, except that the reaction mixture is illuminated with a powerful light, has been published.6
This preparation is referenced from:
Org. Syn. Coll. Vol. 2, 5

If you have any other synthesis for Bromoacetone, I will be happy to know it !

If you have any question about commom tear gas, I will be happy to help you !

Have a great day men !

AL.

If Someone is interested, I have many very good recipe for CS synthesis.

I very effective Tear Gas is a mixture of CS and Capsaicin.
( in Methylene Chloride for example, and use HFC 134 or Nitrogen or CO2 as Propellant ).
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Don't self-sign posts.

[PAC]

Have you ever read "The War Gases"? I have the german one, a newer version of the one I´ve scanned years ago, but it should also be in there (Someone told me that he would make a scan of the second edition, but I haven´t seen it online). There are various ways for the synthesis of Bromoacetone. And the other standard reference books could also be mentioned (Stoltzenberg, Preparatory Manual of chemical warfare agents). If you are interested I can look through my other books/files.

By the way, I´m very interested in the CS synthesis.

[nbk2000]

US3963770 Synthesis of ortho-chlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS)
US3549684

[teshilo]

Hmm.. OTC synth of CS, few tips:
After searching the patents on subject preparation of CS precursors malononitrile and o-chlorobenzaldehydyde i know that -
1.Preparation of malononitrile is the pain in ass, this require in low temperature(83 C) method: cyanoacetamide(production from cyanoacetic acid and ammonia) and phosporus oxychloride.
In high temperature(750-800 C) :confused:method: you need in acetonitrile and cyanogen chloride.Hot CK in laboratory dont my choose:eek:
o-chlorobenzaldehydyde production by chlorination of chlortoluene.
CS good thing solid ,easy weaponize and good in storage:):)
All patents what i collected in one folder and upload it to rapidshare:
password:roguesci.org
http://rapidshare.com/files/68776189/OTC_CS.rar.html

[ciguy007]

Ebola Reston was airborne, and the humans working in the facility all had antibody responses to it. I have heard speculation (when I was at USAMRIID) that it might have chronic effects (like renal disease) after decades. Hanta virus - the cause of hemorrhagic fever in the southwestern US is being implicated as a contributing factor to the relatively high rates of renal failure requiring dialysis in american indians living in endemic areas.