cyanide grenade?

[S. Toppholzer]

I don't know enough of the thermal properties of cyanide so this "invention" :rolleyes: could be useless. I recently read through a couple of very interesting patents. One of them was thermite destruction device - basically a heat resistant cone filled with thermite. At the end of the device there are several layers of a matter I cannot recall right now that hold up the molten slag for long until the thermite would have enough time to completely react and the whole slag of the reaction would pass on the surface of the object to destruct. In another patent I read of a flashbang device that had holes at its bottom so that the Al-powder could escape through them and ignite in the air. And lastly in a third German patent I read about a method of making cyanide by excessive heating of Hexamine in a retort.
So what about the firstly mentioned thermite cone with the resitance liner at its end plus at the very bottom of the device a metal casing with cardboard covered holes and inside that device some hexamine powder?
The slag of the thermite reaction would eat through the liner with great heat and drop into the casing with the hexamine inside. Steam and cyanide gasses build up and rupture the cardboard and the poison is released through the holes.
As far as I know a sideproduct of this reaction would be hydrogen so there might also be chanches of a nice fireball.

Thermal (thermite) destruction, cyanide gas and fireball. Geez...

<small>[ June 01, 2002, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]</small>

[A_W]

Hydrogen cyanide (HCN) is flammable (/explosive when mixed with air). The cyanide would probably ignite, giving a fireball, but burning into harmless gases. If a cyanide bomb was to be made, it probably would have to use a mechanical explosion (overpressurised gas etc.) However, I don`t have experiance (and do not intend to get any!) with theese devices, so I can`t tell for sure.

And; Hexamine-->HydrogenCyanide= ????

[Mr Cool]

A HE frag grenade would be much more practical, and much easier to get to work reliably.

[imported_reodor_felgen]

I agree, a HE frag grenade would be far more easy to make, but if it's just for the experimentation of cyandie gas, theese devices could also be useful:

<a href="http://hjem.sol.no/cblood/" target="_blank">http://hjem.sol.no/cblood/</a>

It's taken form the "black book vol.3" I think.

Edit: bad link, should work now

<small>[ June 24, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: reodor_felgen ]</small>

[S. Toppholzer]

reodor_felgen:
unfortunately the links are all 403 (access forbidden) to me...

[imported_reodor_felgen]

check the link now Toppholzer
, it should work. problems with Cuteftp...

[S. Toppholzer]

yep. Thanks. I can see what you mean. This device will need a lot of testing though for I guess if some regular det.cap would be used it might just blow up the entire case so that no cyanide would be formed.
Maybe some delay, say, a H2SO4 chemical delay might do the job.
Thanks for that one.

[nbk2000]

I've seen that device too. It's from "Black book companion". And it's total BS.

A blasting cap would scatter the acid and cyanide powder too far apart for any appreciable reaction to occur.

Now, if it was a plastic baggie filled with liquid HCN, and the detonator used as a burster, then it'd be good. Even then, it'd only be useable in confined spaces since HCN is lighter than air and would float away outdoors.

[inferno]

If its flammable, the burning/hot remnants of the fuse or paper could ignite the cloud, and as NBK said, a Bcap would send it too far away to be effective, i think a very thick cardboard tube with Al foil lining with a firecracker would be more effective, making a smaller cloud, though the firecracker would ignite the cloud....but a bcap would spread it too far, so in conclusion i dont think this is effective, a he frag would be better

[A_W]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The slag of the thermite reaction would eat through the liner with great heat and drop into the casing with the hexamine inside. Steam and cyanide gasses build up and rupture the cardboard and the poison is released through the holes.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">How is Hydrogen cyanide generated from hexamine?
What are the reaction(s)? Does this always require the heat of thermite, or can it happen by accident (by, say a chemical reaction)?

[S. Toppholzer]

Dear A_W:

Now that we have sort of ranks :rolleyes: in this forum I must admit that even though I am ranked lab assistant and you an amateur I couldn't tell you. I never ever had chemistry classes and all I do is learning and doing. This shortcoming of fundamental knowledge sometimes bothers me pretty much.
However, I got this reaction (heated hexamine forms cyanide) from some patent I cannot recall now anymore. The good thing is that the top brass here didn't object to this reaction so it is true. One more thing learned. As to the why's of the reaction I am afraid I cannot offer any help. But it's good to know that doing it like this and that works :cool:

[Ropik]

Has the "Poison smoke grenade" in Assorted nasties any use? It is supposed to work by vaporizing the KCN with a chlorate/sugar mix, thus creating a cloud of lethal vapors. I think KCN would be destroyed with so high temperature, wouldn't it?

[FUTI]

HCN and his oxidation product C2N2 are flamable this second aparently being used for some analytical flame furnaces (I read it for mine exam boy it will be 9 years ago). At the temperature you stated to use it will definitly go to self-ingnition. So I don't think it is of any use to make HCN granade.

HCN has low boiling point and can be overpressured in some flask containing cyanide and mixed with acid with some device, but it has distinct odour that will give it away even if you use it indoors since it's spreading outdoor is to high to make a good weapon of it...COCl2 is poor but better than HCN so you can figure out.

After all what is the purpose? If you want to bust your device power to create not only mechanical damage, just add some nuclear waste in it that will make the enemy sh*t their pant.

[nbk2000]

FUTI, what are you going on about? :confused:

[teshilo]

Japans in WW2 use frangible HCN grenade with copper stabilised HCN.His grenade this only thin walled Jar with stopper. :rolleyes: Non secure design but very simple.About poison smoke grenade: KCN nice aerolise after burning.Idea may be add sulfur in composition described in A.N. On air create SO2 and mixed with KCN and moisture may be create added HCN; :D :D
Only teoretical. :confused:

[Ropik]

Composition in A.N. contains chlorate. Sulfur-chlorate combination isn't the best, most handling-resistant mix... For myself, I would not risk big flame in my packpack and even bigger cloud of nasty gasses all around me. Maybe using KNO3/sugar mixture instead the chlorate one. Safer, but also with lower temperature. You can add as much sulfur as you want to this mix, but I don't think that it will improve the effect. Too low concentrations to make HCN IMHO.
If you are after HCN, try making lead break delay as described in Anarchist arsenal(the chemical version), arrange the striker to break a H2SO4 filled small flask(or other thin-walled bottle), which is surrounded with KCN. Thorough testing required, however.

[teshilo]

Grenade described in Black book companion can be improvised .Test tubes wrapped in tin or lead foil create tube with open end or : simple replace t. :D :D tubes lead tubes with open end sealed with paraffin. After explosion, tube crushed and acid not vaporize and leak to the KCN. To KCN maybe added small pills from potassium chlorate- charcoal- NC mix for more good heating and vaporize created HCN. :rolleyes:

[MightyQuinn®]

Are we talking about Potassium Cyanide:

NaCN (http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5708.htm)

Or Sodium Cyanide:

KCN (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_cyanide.html)


....being made from Hexamine? Hmm....

[FUTI]

to NBK2000: I was under impresion that requested device should work as conventional granade but also to produce toxic products. This can be done, but if I recolect from the thread proposed method for obtaining HCN granade is questionable. Yes urethane and some other nitrogen containing compounds can give HCN on heating, but proposed thermite process looks little to drastic to me. There were also other members that talk about fireball formation, so I backed their opinion with mine knowledge of analytical chemistry with the burning HCN info. At the end I just mentioned that HCN boils around room temperature so it can be formed easily and simple device that would work at low temperature and release large amount of HCN from pressurised container is much easier to make. Armies around world did work on the type of granade you have talked about but I never researched subject.

[teshilo]

Yes many compounds after burning create nasty stuffs as H2S HCN HCL and others In book Incendiary weapon by SIPRY (on forum ftp) has table with information about these . And as about use in HCN grenade replace KCN more available red blood salt (potassium gexacianoferrate) :p :p .Yes reaction H2SO4 with R.B.S. need in more heat than KCN Small fact from new history Aum used binary device for attack subwey.Two plastic bags filled acid and KCN(source: book ‘High-Impact terrorism on ftp) .Attack- failure .Why? i can said only : in subwey more could than on land Not heat -not reaction, or uncomplete reaction What if used brick termite placed on it R.B.S all in thick :mad: :mad: walled stainless still tubular jar and on the top R.B.S plastic vial with acid You create mixed incendiary-poison gas device .Who can stopping flame get b-i-i-i –g surprise :D :D

[FUTI]

Teshilo just wrote something I read sometime ago before I joined the forum. It seems that police has some time ago caught few muslim extremist in Italy trying to poison water that supply US ambassy with similar system using R.B.S and acid through some kind of backflow device I guess. Anyone have a link? I read this in local paper so it is of no use for this forum.

[Sarevok]

Are you sure you aren't talking about this: Cyanide attack foiled in Italy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1831511.stm),
Cyanide plotters face terror charges (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1833646.stm)?

If yes, then it happened nearly three years ago, and the compound they tried to use to poison the water was potassium ferrocyanide. Its LD50 is 3 or 4g/kg in rats. Very toxic. :rolleyes: It would'nt kill anyone.

[FUTI]

Yes, I know what they try to use and it is true that that compound itself is not toxic. If you spill little cyanide you pour fero-sulfate on it to combine and make that complex cyanide which isn't toxic. I only question did some kind of combination of R.B.S and acid could be used to reverse this and make it toxic again.

The thing that confused me is how did they thought to make an attack on water supplies and make it directed to one particular building???

[teshilo]

New and new... T. melt of KCN near 600 degree C,you can make(mold) grenade body so: Pb/tean metalls fused and added powder cyanide with
little oil icannt remember t. melt of this metals ...In end you get frag grenade with poison frags :D :D .My loss memory- charge grenade explosive :rolleyes: Critics please ;)

[nbk2000]

Want criticism? Fine...your grammer FUCKING SUCKS!

Work on it please, or have someone help you.