Mnesticides (AKA Memory Killers) [Archive] - The Explosives and Weapons Forum

nbk2000

August 30th, 2002, 09:42 AM

"Mnesticides" is a word of my own creation (Mnemo [memory] + ..cide [death/kill]) for chemicals that destroy either an existing memory, or prevent the ability to remember things in the future.

By future memory, I'm not talking about forgetting about any particular incident, but rather the destruction of the ability to remember anything...ever...in the future.

Now, it's know that some drugs cause an amnesia of events that take place while under the influence of said drug. Drugs such as rohypnol (roofies), chloral hydrate, alchol, etc cause blackouts in recalling events that happened while intoxicated.

These memory blackouts are, however, either temporary and memory naturally recurs, or can be recovered by hypnosis. These drugs also don't (usually) cause any permanent damage to the memory capacity of the victim/user.

What I'm referring to by mnesticides are chemicals that cause a permanent and unalterable change in the ability of the victims brain to form and store memories. There are recorded instances of traumatic brain injury cases that could not remember anything past 5 minutes. Say hi to the guy, walk away, and 5 minutes later he wouldn't remember ever having seen you before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The uses of such chemicals would be varied, depending on the severity of the damage they cause. Someone who had a 5 minute memory is effectively a moron, since they can't learn anything new, nor be left unattended without 24 hour supervision. You could beat the shit out of him, and in 5 minutes he couldn't pick you out, nor even remember why he's fucked up.

Someone with an impaired, but not destroyed, memory would be less effective in their tasks, causes errors and make mistakes they otherwise wouldn't, be a drain on any organization that hired them, on and on.

Mnesticides could be used to "eliminate" enemy factions without overt bloodshed (can't plot if you can't remember secrets), decrease efficiency of organizations opposite from your goals, destroy political careers (since memory is vital for pols), decrease earning potential for entire segments of undesirable racial population segments <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , etc.

By destroying their minds, without destroying their bodies, you avoid any overtly obvious damage that would instigate investigation and counter-measures. A downslide of IQ points in a target population gets no notice, but has economic impact by decreasing the ability of the target population to get anything more than mimimum wage level jobs, get into college, or to escape poverty.

In a more personal use, you could "retard" a co-worker who was promoted over you. Their "ditzyness" would eventually cause their demotion or firing. If someone else gets promoted, take them out too. You could continue to do this till you got promoted by default (if need be) as the only person who's not an "air head". There'd be no investigation since they (the co-workers) are still alive and well, just (thanks to you) scatterbrained. :)

Needless to say, a sprinkling of mnesticide on free doughnuts for the local PD would go a long ways to avoiding any hassles from the piggies. Can't catch a crim if you can't remember what he looked like! :D

Certain heavy metals like mercury have been known to destroy memory, but they are both toxic, and readily detectable. What's needed is an organic chemical that isn't toxic at suitable doses, available by legal purchase or covert lab manufacture, and reliable.

I've searched for such chemicals, but information is scarce. It's almost always "Don't do evil street drugs!", or "Psychiatrists are destroying your brains with Prozac!" crap. Nothing specific like "Chemical X (CAS #***-**-****), at 5mg/Kg causes...."

Boob Raider

August 30th, 2002, 01:24 PM

Greetings NBK !
Here is an article about domoic acid :

In late 1987 a mysterious and serious outbreak of food poisoning occurred in Canada. The symptoms included vomiting and diarrhea, and in some cases it caused confusion, memory loss , disorientation, and even comas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . What could have been the cause of these medical and neurological problems? Epidemiologists from Heath and Welfare Canada (HWC) attributed the illnesses to restaurant meals of cultured blue mussels from the genus Mytilus edulis L. This is an informational site about the natural toxin, Domoic Acid, found in the mussels that was the culprit of this amnesic shellfish poisoning mystery.

The Extraction of Domoic Acid :D
In the immediate crisis of the shellfish poison episode in Canada, it was necessary to find out what the toxin was very fast. Whenever mice were injected with this toxin, they immediately scratched their shoulders with their hind legs which was a sure indication of the poison. The mixtures of poisoned mussels were separated by standard methods. Simultaneously, pure samples were tested for similiar behavior in mice. These fractions were also compared by spectra and chromatography data. Fractions which contained the toxin were further tested. Below depicts the basic extraction method used to isolate the toxin in the mussels.

Separation by solubility is one viable method since most compounds are either fat or water soluable. The ground mussel samples were separated with aqueous methanol. The extract was then evaporated, leaving only the toxic residue. Since the poison was nonvolatile, chemists deduced it either had a high molecular weight or it ionized in solution.
A second extraction was performed using a nonpolar solvent, dichloromethane. This causes separate layers to form. The toxin remained in the aqueous fraction; however, a very important piece of information was learned from the other fraction. It contained pigments which were consistent with phytoplanktons which gave a clue that the poison was not made by the mussels but most likely part of their diet. The aqueous fraction was then separated by HPLC, or High Performance Liquid Chromatography.

Finally, mass spectrometry was used to find the molecular weight and the formula. The spectra were then matched with those of the STN International Registry system. The compound was found to be domoic acid.

Further studies were needed on domoic acid and a more efficient method for extraction was explored. However, several characteristics of domoic acid cause the initial method of separation with dichloromethane and water to be the best method.

Biological Activity :D

Domoic Acid has been referred to as a "molecular Trojan Horse." One piece of Domoic Acid's structure is very similar to glutamic acid. Nerve cells do not regonize the difference.
Glutamate acts as a neurotransmitter, which sends messsages from one nerve cell to another. Glutamate works by binding to a glutamate receptor which then opens the channels to allow the calcium ions to flow into the cell. When the charge builds up in the cell membrane, the nerve cell fires. The signal is then passes on to the next nerve cell. Too much stimulation causes new connections to grow between the nerve cells. Glutamate plays a vital role in thought, learning, and memory.

However, when excess glutamate is present, it begins to act as an exitotoxin. An exitotoxin is a compound that excites cells so often that it kills them. Glutamate at high concentrations allows more calcium ions than nessassary to cross the cell membrane. When all of the calcium ions enter the cell, it begins to fire uncontrollably which causes the neuron to eventually swell and burst. This process then displays a domino effect upon other cells, creating a chain of exciting cells to death. The extra calcium in the cells induces certain protein-cutting enzymes to produce large amounts of free radicals. The free radicals are very reactive and damage biochemical structures when they come into contact. It is this process that often leads to brain injury and neurodegenerative diseases.

Domoic Acid works in the same way. This is the reason that during the shellfish poisoning in Canada, many symptoms were neurological such as memory loss and comas.

Thats pretty much all I know about domoic acid.

Polverone

August 30th, 2002, 01:29 PM

Have you been watching "Memento" lately? :) I think part of the reason there aren't any such chemicals already listed is that the brain is so complex. It's hard to target any one thing - especially something as ill-understood as memory - without doing lots of damage to the rest of the organism as well. I don't have access to toxicology journals, but if someone does, I would suggest looking for articles on heavy metal poisoning, since that causes general mental sluggishness (if not the specific effect you're after) and see if anybody has a detailed writeup on the mechanisms behind it.

nbk2000

August 30th, 2002, 04:27 PM

I assume that's some TV show? I haven't watched TV for several years now. I've got a much better way to waste my time...the 'net. :D

Heavy metals are bad since they're toxic, and leave permanent traces in the bones and hair. Organics only.

MrSamosa

August 30th, 2002, 04:41 PM

First and foremost, another great idea, NBK! I had taken some time trying to think about a new kind of chemical agent, but to no success...so I just go by your quote, "Don't innovate, imitate!"

Anyhow, from what I've seen so far, I think we're not going about searching for information in the proper way. It's not a lesson in toxicology that is needed, but more a lesson in pathology and some brain chemistry.

Not that this would be an ideal chemical agent, but for the sake of providing an example, let's look at Ethyl Alcohol. When it reaches your brain, it begins getting between the nerve endings and interferes with nerve impulses. Boob Raider gave a better explanation than I did, so take some time and read over his post again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . However, the Ethyl Alcohol is eventually broken down. I think we need to figure out a way to make such chemicals more persistent in the body, to have them bond stronger to the nerve endings so that they do not leave. This should help to cause memory loss, but also permanent drunkenness :p .

Have you considered Serotonin (5-Hydroxytryptamine) as a target brain chemical? That's probably your best bet. Serotonin triggers a series of steps in the brain in which a chemical reaction strengthens the bonds between neurons in the brain for several minutes- the foundation for short term memory. Now, if we could find a chemical that blocks the process of strengthening these neuron bonds, we could greatly hinder short-term memory. Hmm...why not go after the Serotonin itself actually!

Now, if there is a chemical that can stimulate the Serotonin re-uptake so that it causes a shortage of that chemical in the brain, it should help to hinder short-term memory. Also, if you aren't aware already, lowered Serotonin levels leads to a variety of mental illnesses such as depression and bipolar disorder. Theoretically, all we would need is an opposite of Prozac, whatever that might be. That gives me an idea! Chemicals to intentionally inflict mental illness upon the enemy. That should put them out of service for a long time.

Hopefully, this will set you guys on the right track <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[ August 30, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]

Rhadon

August 30th, 2002, 11:55 PM

Perhaps something similar to Alzheimer's desease would do the job. The symptomes would be the following:
 loss of memory</li> unability to learn
</li>They could probably be achieved if you were able to either cause a lack of acetylcholin or disable the body's acetylcholin receptors.
Of course, the person would have to be continually administrated with his / her acetylcholin inhibitor as long as the symptoms should last. An appropriate inhibitor (don't know if this is the right expression for what it does) would be acetylcholinesterase (which occurs naturally in the body), but there should be compounds that are both affordable, possible to acquire and easier to dose.
Since people who suffer from Alzheimer's desease have low levels of acetylcholin and are still viable, I assume that there would not be any other obvious harm.
I'm not sure if this would really work, but the theory seems fine to me.
EDIT: One element from the list above was omitted. Now it is complete.

[ August 31, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

MrSamosa

August 31st, 2002, 03:10 AM

That may work, or it may not. A common acetylcholine inhibitor is Atropine, if I know my poisons correctly. However, as you know, this is very acutely toxic and is not the kind of thing that directly targets memory.

nbk2000

August 31st, 2002, 09:11 AM

One wouldn't want to have to be constantly dosing the target to effect mneticide. There's no telling when you can next get them a dose, and if the effect is dependant on continual dosing, what'll happen when it wears off?

Single dose is the trick. The single exposure makes tracing the source of the poisoning very difficult, compared to constant exposure.

Obviously, it must be non-toxic (fatal), otherwise you risk accidiently killing the target and bringing a full blown police investigation down on your head, which would defeat the whole purpose on mnesticides.

It's known that people who've survived sub-lethal doses of OPA's (nerve gases) have memory problems. This could likely be attributed to the brain seizures (similar to epilepsy) that the OPA induces. If the toxicity could be limited strictly to the brain, perhaps by binding with a brain protein, then only the seizure effect would happen, leaving the pupils and breathing unaffected, confusing diagnosis of poisoning with natural epilepsy.

If there was a chemical used solely by the memory centers of the brain, than that chemical could be tagged with radioactive isotopes of short half-lives, but high energy, to "burn" the cells up with radiation. Then the isotopes decay and are excreted, leaving the damaged brain behind. :)

Rhadon

August 31st, 2002, 11:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There's no telling when you can next get them a dose, and if the effect is dependant on continual dosing, what'll happen when it wears off?<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately, "unability to learn" was omitted from my list of symptoms for lack of acetylcholin. This would have answered your question. I suppose that when the acetylcholin is on a normal level again, there will be no further symptoms, but the person should not be able to remember what had happened while the acetylcholin level was low.

PYRO500

August 31st, 2002, 01:40 PM

I like the idea of brainwashing combined with Mnesticides, Kind of like PROM (programmable read only memory) once you burn them in the deprograming that normally takes a very long time to do is ineffective due to them not being able to take the mind out of the closed loop you put them into, not only is the previously recorded "software" (memory) unrecoverable beacuse of the brainwashing and inability to counteract it witch requires memory, But the "hardware can't tell you anything new, effectively making them one purpose idiots.

What that one purpose is, is up to you such as deploying nerve gas in a public place, taking the blame for a crime, etc, I'm sure some of you can be more creative.

I had a few ideas about how this could be done, I don't see any though that aren't detectable through some means. Here are a few of my ideas:

1.Selective lobotomy, While it would require surgical skill, equipment and some risk, would also be the most effective.

2.Chemical that brain recognizes as fuel, burns out selected part of brain: positron emmison topography's have shown that when a radioactive isotope is administered to the brain as fuel, the brain will use the perticular nerve cell frying fuel that is administered to the person and whatever thought processthere heavily using will be fried by the short lived compound.

Boob Raider

August 31st, 2002, 02:38 PM

I remember my Biology teacher once mention, when we were studying insulin, that before electro shock therapy (EST) :D , people who were depressed to such an extent that they would attempt sucide where given moderate OD's of insulin. This would fry some of their brain <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> and the patient wouldn't remember that he/she was depressed and even so for what they were depressed about, so they wouldn't kill themself and anyone else in the process. EST later took over had somewhat the same effect but was less damaging to the brain and was also considered less "unethical" by some. :rolleyes:
Although ODing a bunch of people with insulin or for that matter zapping them with a giant stunn-gunn ain't a low profile idea. :p

xoo1246

August 31st, 2002, 02:45 PM

This isn't really my section but doesn't NaF lower IQ and affect memory? And don't we get it in doses every day....

Al Koholic

September 4th, 2002, 10:15 PM

Somebody mentioned something about the NaF and IQ lowering in the thread (aptly titled) Sodium Fluoride. I dont know.

Anyway, something that may offer itself as a potential memory disrupting poison that specifically targeted memory itself would be extremely hard to find due to the fact that memory depends on so many mechanisms/pathways/neurotransmitters.

There are however specific areas which could be exploited in the poisoning. THe hippocampus is absolutely necessary for memory consolidation beyond about a 10 minute time-span. A man known as H.M. suffered from hippocampal lesions administered by his neurosurgeon and lost all capacity to remember anything for longer than 10 minutes in a stimulating environment. Targeting the hippocampus is probably more than difficult.
Learning can be inhibited by suppressing 2 areas in the cerebellum. The lateral interpositus nucleus and the red nucleus both play important roles in learning (the LIP plays the most). Targeting these areas would also be hard without surgery or electrodes etc. I'm sure there could possibly be chemicals for both of these applications but I have no idea what they are or could be.

One thing that may be a potential neural poison which would say...cause the promoted person to become the fired person and you to become the new promoted person is MPTP. 1-methyl-4 phenyl-1,2,3,6- tetrahydropyridine. It oxidizes to MPP+ in the body which is
1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium ion.
In 1982, a group of people in northern California aged 22 to 42 all developed symptoms of parkinson's disease after acquiring what they thought was a form of synthetic heroin-like designer (therefore legal) drug known as MPPP. MPPP normally produces a nice opiate high like heroin but the basement chemist who was synthesizing the MPPP had his reflux at too high a temperature and he created MPTP. The people ingested it through various methods and within a few hours had been reduced to basically completely developed parkinson's patients. Their symptoms were severe and they responded to L-dopa. Basically they were fine physically except that the MPP+ had almost completely destroyed their substantia nigra (a key part of a pathway responsible for among other things, movement and coordination based on dopamine). For your interest, the insecticide paraquat has a very similar structure to that of MPTP and MPP+ and will have similar action in the brain. Studys have also shown that people who have had a higher than normal exposure to insecticides have a better chance of developing parkinson's than normal individuals. Some scientists even suspect that the cause of parkinson's is the presence of toxic chemicals in our environment (ie, insecticides in water)...chemicals brought about by the industrial revolution which is, I believe right around the time parkinson's was first observed.
Also...sometimes symptoms associated with parkinson's disease include the lack of automatic, nondeliberate learning. This is because the pathway for this type of learning relies on the functioning of the basal ganglia which is disrupted with the destruction of the substantia nigra.
Basically, giving someone paraquat or (if you can make/get it) MPTP, you will fuck them up royally. The substances will be metabolized by the body most likely leaving no trace after an amount of time (i dont know how long) has passed. Eventually someone will figure out that they had ingested either one of these chemicals but hopefully they wont know how they came into contact with them (advantageous for the poisoner heh).

Al

MrSamosa

September 4th, 2002, 10:23 PM

Paraquat is one of the most toxic herbicides! Giving that to someone will most likely kill them, in a very cruel way. However, administering it in sublethal doses, it may have the effects you speak of. Unfortunately, the gap between sublethal and lethal is not big when you work with these acutely toxic poisons.

Al Koholic

September 4th, 2002, 10:35 PM

Oh yes of course! I honestly have no idea what the dose would be (nor do I care to find out really) but the right amount certainly exists. Keep in mind that the MPTP these people took resulted in the formation of MPP+ in their bodies at a dosage low enough not to kill them but to destroy certain neural tissue. MPP+ at a higher dosage would certainly be lethal as well.

nbk2000

September 5th, 2002, 09:18 AM

MPP+ is non-toxic.

It's only when it is formed in situ from MPTP that it causes the damage desired.

Surgical techniques are useable on an individual, but for groups, forget it.

I used to have a book about lobotomy and all the surgical techniques for it (it was like 500 pages thick) written by the guys who popularized it in the US. I forgot was it's called though. :(

The further back towards the rear of the head the cuts are made, the more moronic the results. Cut back further than the middle line between the ears, and you've got a drooling idiot who can't talk, feed itself, and needs diapers.

A dull blade, local anesthetic (though you can skip that part :) ), and hole cutting drill bit is all that was needed to perform the operation.

Voila'! Instant idiot! :D

It'd make for an interesting terror tactic...to reduce your enemies to drooling idiots, rather than outright killing them.

Al Koholic

September 5th, 2002, 10:26 AM

Thats what I was trying to get at there hehe. The MPTP they took actually has no effect on mice so for a while people couldn't figure out what the hell was going on. When it is oxidized in the body however...the MPP+ is highly damaging. I suppose it would make a good group poison.

Also...a lobotomy can be performed with little more than an ice pick and a hammer. In fact a very archaeic (and in my opinion pretty fucked up too :-)) prodcedure done a lot in the 40's by a portugese neuroscientist named Egas Moniz. His work on damaging the frontal lobes (orbitofrontal cortex) led to the development of the "ice pick" prefrontal lobotomy. In the past, the physician placed a long, thin and sharp metal rod under the upper eyelid until the point reached the orbital bone above the eye. The rod was then hit with a mallet to drive it into the brain and then the rod was moved side to side or back and forth in a sweeping motion to sever the connections of the white matter. It is so easy to do this that it was usually done outside the operating room in a physicians office (or sometimes in the peoples own homes!) and the patient usually left within an hour of the begining of the procedure. Quick and easy...all that the patient suffers is some farily prdictable mental functioning and a couple black eyes for a while. If someone wanted to do this maliciously...it would obviously require the sedating of the subject but other than that...you could be done with the procedure in like 3 minutes tops probably.

al

simply RED

September 5th, 2002, 01:01 PM

Excelent example of "mnesticide" is tetradotoxin!
Tetradotoxin is found in the fugu fish which the japanese enjoy very much and which kills them if not cooked correctly...
The VooDoo shamans have used this toxin to create zombies! It's very simple. When you poison someone with it(in near-lethal cases) the victim's body seems dead, but it isn't! After 12 hours, you wake up the Zoombie and introduces it its new life, and new MASTER!
After some computer psychotronical therapy the zombie is ready!
TETRADOTOXIN: LD50 0,005mg/kg , stable up to 200degrees celsius!

xoo1246

September 5th, 2002, 02:04 PM

1250 times deadlier than
cyanide according to this source:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/3388/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/3388/</a>

Machiavelli

September 5th, 2002, 02:39 PM

It seems that repeated sub-lethal doses of scopolamine are responsible for the zombie state, tetrodotoxin is just for creating the illusion of death. Unfortunately many of the victims die of overdose, but that risk is acceptable for vodoo priests.

Jhonbus

September 5th, 2002, 03:59 PM

Perhaps Ultrasound transducers could be used in a procedure akin to surgical lobotomy. A pair of transducers at the right frequency could cause constructive interference and localised heating at a known distance. If this distance is say, 1.5 inches, then a device could be constructed that merely has to be swept across the forehead of a victim to produce internal brain lesions and instant stupidity.

[ September 05, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Jhonbus ]

xoo1246

September 5th, 2002, 04:18 PM

Shocking people from one side to the other of the brain(using electrodes) is know to cause memory losses. I read a page on that subject describing where to place electrodes and voltages, shock duration etc.. Can't find it now however.

Tyler_Durden

September 5th, 2002, 09:51 PM

<a href="http://www.albany.net/~tjc/memory-loss.html" target="_blank">http://www.albany.net/~tjc/memory-loss.html</a>
Perhaps this could be explored further ^ ^ ^
The chance of long term is a result of normal dosages over ~ 1 year, maybe bigger doses = fewer doses to get the same effect.

Also, I think "mnemocide" is better... as "mnesticide" includes the "est" from "pest", the root of which I cannot think of the exact meaning right now. I think mnemocide just sounds better anyway, but whatever. :)

(No...it's proper as it is. After all, we're trying to destroy "pesky" memories, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D :p NBK)

[ September 06, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Hystrix

September 21st, 2002, 01:05 PM

Well, acetylcholine inhibitors... I don't know their correct name in english but in russian literature they're more known as cholinolitics or anticholinergic drugs. By the way: these "mnemocides" are included to the group named Incapacitants.
So, typical anticholinergic drug is rather famous BZ gas (3-quinuclidinyl-benzylate). BZ is a white crystalline stuff, it has no taste and no odour. (It's interesting that BZ can be used in fuming pyrotechnics. :rolleyes: ) Density is 1.33 g/cc. It's soluble in chloroform and insoluble in water (but with acids it gives water-soluble salts). Inhalation toxicity is: ICt50 = 0.11 mg*min/l, LCt50 = 110 mg*min/l. BZ is toxic at inhalation, eating and injection. First symptoms of poisoning are midriasis, pulse acceleration, weakness. After 30-60 minutes memory and attention became weaker. Then poisoned loses an orientation and sometimes becomes aggresive etc. etc. This poisoning continues for several days. The poisoned doesn't remember what he did at that time.
3-quinuclidinol is rather expensive so BZ can be substituted with ditrane or amizyl.
Ditrane is N-ethylpiperidine-3-benzylate. I almost have no data on it. Its effective dose about 2-15 mg (if my memory does not fail me :D )
Amizyl (aka amitakon, benactyzine, nervatil) is 2-diethylaminoethyl-benzylate. It's used as a tranquilizer. The highest therapeutical dose is 2 mg at one time (5 mg at one day) so it's better to use a dose about 10-20 mg. Amizyl can be used in a combination with other tranquilizers (their effect will be enforced).
Afaik antiserotonine drugs (like LSD or DMT) are less effective. They "kill" memory only in very high dose.

Agent Blak

October 11th, 2002, 10:35 PM

You could always use a substance that would discount them. LSD. The person gets on the stand you can have your lawyer make them look like an 'Cid freak.

pyromaniac_guy

November 4th, 2002, 09:06 PM

radio-isotopse tagged routes to kill off brain cells? seems like a great idea at first glance, but there is one REALLY big down side... the only way to get such materials is to make them, and I'm not talking about chemistry here, but alchemy, or more to the point, transmutation... clinical sources for stuff commonly used as tagants, such as Tc-99 only produce low amounts of the daughter isotopse in question, so it wouldnt pre practicle to use against a person in such a manner. to make any signifigant amount of a particular isotopse, especially one incorporated into a complex organic that wil ltaget emory cells involves the use of either a nuetron source or a cyclotron... most lab variety nuetron sources such as isotopse or nuetron tubes dont deliver high enough flux.. so you are left with again either a nuetron spalation source, ie linac, or a cyclotron...
the number of people in the us who have unfettered acees to such hardware, as well as proper radio-chemistry equipment, could probably be counted on one hand, even after a nasty accident with a circular saw.. then there is a second issue... what kind of dose do you use? since i doubt one will find information in the literature about such things, your going to ahve to take an hopefully educated guess, and your first attempt may result in little effect or death.... fortunatly if you use a very short halflife isotopse it may be impossible to detect the material if the result is death... but thats a double edged sword... the shorter the half life, the closer you ahve to take the cyclotron to the target or vise/versa (is that a 35 MeV hydrogen linac in your pants, or are you just happy to see me? :) )

good idea, but unless you are a nation-state, with plenty of facilities, and a group of political prisoners to experiment on, i dont think it will ever happen....

but something another fellow said gave me a more realistic idea... how about a portable microwave source???? take the magnitron out of a small microwave... break into a radio shack and steal (or buy i supose) 110 9v batteries... tie um in series, being mindfull of insulation... have a floating gelcell batetry to provide the fillament power.. you now have a totally portabel, abttery operated microwave device that will probably last anywhere from a handfull of minutes to maybe the better part of an hour...

it probably only takes a 5 degree centigrade raise in temperture to start killing off brain cells... assume the frontal lobe is about 1kg in mass, and since the body is mostly water, the specific heat of grey matter is probably inline with that of water... 5 kCal is about 20 Kj, or about 40 seconds exposure time from a 500w magnitron... you could turnt he thing on and off and scan the output window of the tube over the forehead to avoid buring the skin and leaving and physical evidence... with a technique such as this, so long as you can incapacitate your atget without detection, you could vegetabilize them without detection as well.. the only physical evidence would be dead brain cells :)

nbk2000

November 5th, 2002, 07:10 AM

A battery powered, microwave emitting, memory erasing pen? Cooool! :D

Now it'd be entirely practical to use mains power since I can't think of anywhere in civilization that's more than a few feet away from an outlet.

Perhaps ultrasound to cauterize brain tissue?

pyromaniac_guy

November 5th, 2002, 01:16 PM

I think batteries would be better for 2 reasons... the weight of a transformer and an extension cord is probably inline with that of a stack of batteries... no weight savings there... even if you are close to a source of wall power, pugging the thing in will only make the whole process a few seconds longer... and most inportantly, alot of secluded places, parks, back alleys, ect arent going to have wall power...

Keep in mind that this wouldnt just be a memory erasor, it would be preforming a quick and dirty labotomy... if anyone out there is sadistic enough it might be interesting to experiment on small mamals to see how effective of a weapon this could be... since microwaves are so strongly absorbed by flesh it should be entierly possible to do major damage to the brain without leaving any sign what so ever (i wounder if a person would wake up from sleep if exposed to such a source, ie if there would be any physical sensation. if you attack the brain stem the target would just stop breathing. provided you found a way to calibrate the exposure so that you didnt actually COOK any tissue, all an autopsy would reveal is a dead person) keep in mind it would be wise to wear a skimask of copper mesh while using such a device... a mask at a minimum, better yet, a body suit... (unless you were extraordinarily carefull about keeping the microwave emmisions directed AWAY from your own body... I have played around with an unsheilded magnitron before, but if you get sloppy with one you go blind, sterile, or worse....

Anthony

November 5th, 2002, 04:49 PM

Well there's no pain receptors in the brain, so any sensation would be in the skin on the outside of the skull. If you're not cooking the skin, then you shouldn't feel anything! :)

knowledgehungry

November 5th, 2002, 08:05 PM

I'm not sure if a memory erasing pen is actually possible, if it was wouldnt it have allready been done by the Government ... unless they allready did and we forgot... :rolleyes:

pyromaniac_guy

November 5th, 2002, 09:02 PM

a magnitron, cooling fan, and small back pack sized battery aray would hardly qualify as a 'pen' but the more I think about it, the more the idea sounds like it would work....

anyone out there with a terminal illness and only a few days left to live that will allow me to use them as a test subject??

Wicked1

April 22nd, 2004, 10:46 PM

Im 16, and ive been on meds all my life, due to an inafficiancy with my serotonin and dopamine levels. I go through bouts of anger, depression, happyness, sadness (Diffrent from depression), and confusion. To solve this ive been tested on every medication known to man, excluding fucking viagra, but the damn shrinks are runnin outta shit.

Neways, to the point.

I am currently on Prozac(Fluxotine, generic brand) 20 mgs once a day in the morning, which has some side affects, like drowsyness, but not memmory loss. it is used to treat depression, bipolarism, that stress thingy, and others.

Prozac is a common anti depressent that is highly availible to anyone who can fake being depressed.

I am on Lithium Carbonate (300mg twice dayly) that give me severe hand tremors if i dont have a high ammount of sugar in my blood, tastes like im suckin on copper, and other such things - Possiblity of contributing to my memmory problem

Lithium is a common mood stabaliser used for anger, depression, and panic attacks, and bipolarism commonly availible.

I am on seroquil (100mg at night) that causes extreme drowsyness, and in my case, memmory loss. sometimes i forget what i did 10 mins ago. sometimes a whole day gos by.

Seroquil is an AntiPsychotic used to treat schitsofrainia, panic attacks, depression, anger, and bipolarism.

So, im not sure if my memmory problems are strictly the seroquil, or a combination of my lithium AND seroquil. I'm sure if the dose was increased a little, given at interviewels (it stays in the system), the higher the dose the more side affects. These pills are pretty small and can be hidden in drinks with no problem what so ever. However, it is a felony to possess these because of the psychotropic makeup of the medicine.

With all these medicines, you can not just "get off" after a week of steady use, because they are ssri's. The person will experiance SSRI withdrawl, including but not limited to memmoryloss, severe tremors, eye twitchs, sickness, and death.

Ive taken myself off of my meds three times, and i was litteraly forced to take them again. You may want to considder this fact before you try messin with this.

-Sry if i wasted time, thought it might help. Wicked

Bert

April 23rd, 2004, 02:41 AM

To solve this ive been tested on every medication known to man, excluding fucking viagra, but the damn shrinks are runnin outta shit.

This is totaly OT, but:

Godamn, my mom's a psychologist and I have long arguements with her regarding my beliefs that the mind sciences are at the level that physical medicine was when doctors were fucking bleeding people to "ballance their humors". My point being, back then going to see a doctor was actualy more likely to kill you than the disease. And reading your story, I'd guess that they've fucked you up worse than your own biochemistry would be doing if you had been let alone. Teenagers are SUPPOSED to be a bit off, moody and generaly fucked up. It's normal. Trying to make 'em happy and perfect with chemicals is fighting against evolution- Two more years and you can tell them to go fuck themselves, if they don't decide to commit you first. I can just see what would be done to, say, Issac Newton if he were an American upper middle class teenager today. Diagnosed with social dysfunction and obsessive compulsive fixations, and put on heavy meds. Soon, he'd be happily watching reality TV and get a job flipping burgers after school instead of ending up teaching university level mathematics by his 18th B-day.

Ropik

April 23rd, 2004, 06:49 AM

Chemical methode:
Like somebody says: It is very hard to target one part of brain only with any chemical agent/poison/drug. Some other parts are going to be damaged. However, the severeness of the damage vary greatly.
I do not know any agent that can do this(although many members of my family are doctors, so I am pretty oriented in this,IMO).
I read somewhere that CIA dispose of somebody by syrup with LSD mixed in(this mixture was masked like an anti-coughing syrup). The poor man lose his memory completely and became a pretty big idiot. I only read it, I do not know if it's true. Probably not, although LSD memory erasing is possible.

Ultrasound/microwave/similar:
Well... I think this is more possible. When you can make accurate microwave ray which has not any effect on the skin, it should work. It is assumed, however, that you have unmovable target to aim with the ray, otherwise you can fry something other than you want to. :rolleyes:

Effect of these methods are too cruel to use as memory erasers. You more probably turn the target into really dumb creature than only erase his memory and left the majority of his mind unchanged.
But if this is you goal...

Xave

April 25th, 2004, 02:06 PM

I think a preicse method/goal should be discovered, not just a crude damaging of the brain. In terms of a good poison, a slow degradation in memory would be ideal. Perhaps a highly lipid soluble chemical to dissolve in the fats of your body and be slowly released. However this release is relatively quick (around 1 week) so there would still be plenty of suspicion. People were discussing anti-acetylcholine drugs- they're called anticholinergenics. You get these in travel sickness pills- atropine, scopolamine (hyoscine). They 'sit in' (inhibit) the receptor site for ACh (acetylcholine) but i seem to remember reading they only inhibit certain receptors (there are several different ACh receptors and subtypes etc). As everybody's been saying it's very hard to pinpoint a specific target, what with mother nature reusing the same neurochemicals for different things. Memory research is only in early(ish) stages and so little is know so far. The mechanism is complex and thus difficult to target. Perhaps we should look into why THC (from cannabis) damages memory. If the mechanism of action was identified here, perhaps a poison to cause the damaging effects of cannabis/THC only would be good?