C4 Plastique with Added HMX

[Dhzugasvili]

I was thinking the other day, what if i made myself some quantity of RDX (n-nitration, i have had much success with this route, really good yields), and made it into C4 using Ethyl hexyl sebecate plasticizer, white gasoline, polyisobutylene....but before that also making some HMX and adding it to the RDX, say like 30% to make more powerful C4...would this work? Would the C4 plasticize properly? It would have a much higher Detonation Velocity...but the only thing about making the RDX into C4 is this, that Detonation Velocity is sacrificed a little, hence C4 detonating at 7700m/s compared to pure RDX at 8360m/s if made properly and put to the proper density. So i was thinking...this would be really strong plastique RDX/HMX C4!!

[cutefix]

Indeed you can add HMX,without noticeable effects in appearance and handling properties except that it will be more sensitive than 100%RDX C-4.It will be slightly more powerful also.This is the reason why original plastique was made with" anhydride "synthesized RDX that contains 10%HMX.
As far as I know quality control standards for C-4 requires a VOD within 8000 m/s mark.That is the VOD of C-4 in fresh, block shaped plastique.The 7700m/s is attainanable if you knead the plastique extensively (like modelling clay) into a desired shapein that process you are introducing some gas bubbles in the mass and that in principle introduce void spaces.Hence the density will be lighter and in consequence will result in slightly lower VOD.That is why in cutting steel or shaped charged application minimum handling of C-4 is desired in order to obtain the best detonation speed for better cutting action.

[Dhzugasvili]

I have made HMX before but just 50grams...im not sure if the is improper use of the word "just" but anyway...thanx cutefix, does anyone have information on HMX drop tests? I wonder if i go as far as adding 40% HMX what effect that would have...or what about just plasticizing the HMX? But im not sure if that would work...Yes i see that Type B RDX made with Acetic ANhydride procedure has 10% HMX but hey...the yield sucks..so that is why i have chosen to attempt this...first making a batch of HMX and then making the RDX much larger batch and then mixing and then plasticizing, comments, questions, suggestions, much appreciated.

[cutefix]

That is interesting!How did you make HMX?
This octogen is more sensitive than cyclonite .A Rotter impact test gives these values for comparison;PETN=40,HMX=60,RDX=80,TNT=110.
Therefore it is likely that your (60/40)RDX/HMX plastic will be slightly more sensitive to initiation than standard C-4.

I can give you some suggestions about the actual process.It was made originally this way in the laboratory scale.
Study these procedure and maybe you can modify it according to your available equipment.

Small scale C-4 manufacture.
Prepare this in this series.
A.Coating mixture (LACQUER)
1)Put 12.5 gram of medium viscosity PIB (M.w.100,000,Vistanex grade MM-L-100),cut to 1-2cm sizes.soak it in 170 grams white gasoline (or toluene).Heat the mixture at 60-70 while stirring for 1-2 hours until dissolved.
2)Place in the solution of 8 grams of SAE-10 motor oil and 29.5 gram of your diethyl hexyl sebacate and mix well.Cool to 30 C.Set aside.
B.SLURRY and GRANULATION PROCESS:
In a 10 liter steam kettle with stirrer,(preferably no open flame here).This equipment can be replaced with an alternative electrically heated jacketed type vessel, with a propeller type impeller to stir the slurry at high speed.
Place 500+ gram granular RDX into 5500 cc of water.Place 0.2gram gelatin( as dispersing agent) and heat to 75C.Add your coating mixture within 1-2 minutes,while stirring at high speed 450-500 RPM(required in order to obtain proper mixing,coating and better granulation of the explosive) .
Raise the temperature to 90- 100C,to (completely remove the solvent)then cool to 60 C,and filter through a Buchner funnel(under vacuum) to remove most of the water.

DRYING/PLASTICIZING
Place the granules on a shallow pan to a depth of 2cm.Air dry(you can use a heated air from portable hair dryer) for faster drying.
Plasticizing-This step is preferably done right during the drying process( if you have a small sigma blade high shear mixer with a heating jacket and heating to more than 60C(at higher temperature it will plasticize faster) while kneading mechanically..This process will enable you to get the optimum density and therefore a higher VOD. Above 7800m/s for pure RDX(maybe more for your RDX/HMX blend).
In home preparation,you can knead your (granulated,coated,and airdried) C-4 powder , by gloved hand(avoid skin contact to the explosive!) until you obtain a putty like mass.
You can use a 5-quart kitchen aid mixer with a flat paddle attachement,and allowing it to mix at low speed until you get a homogenous mass,If the dough appears to be rather stiff,sprinke little white gasoline on it, While mixing. The total plastic explosive weight is more than half a kilo and just right for the mixer.Its much better if your mixer has a jacketed bowl and you pour boiling water into the jacket as heating medium.This will soften the plasticizer and better cohesion of the granules will result inorder to form a uniform paste.If these is your system you will need a lower viscocity PIB(MolWt 75000 or less.Vistanex Grade MM-L-80)
As your plasticizing is not that efficient and your mass may contain gas bubbles.Here your resulting explosive will have a VOD in the vicinity of 7500m/s.In commercial process kneading , plasticizing,drying is done simultaneously under vacuum,so that gas bubbles will not be introduced into the mass and optimum density is obtained.

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

[nbk2000]

There'd be no reason why you couldn't make an air tight box to place the mixer in. Use a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump.

I've seen it done for making bubble free plastic bound rocket propellant.

[mongo blongo]

Dhzugasvili -Where did you get Ethyl hexyl sebecate? I am finding this almost impossible to get hold of! :mad:
Would you be selling any? :) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Anyway I just found a source for PIB!
If you have a look at some archives topics , you will discover us talking about the PIB insulation tape. We were also talking about how to remove the adhesive from it. We were barking up the wrong tree!
What you want is "Self Amalgamating Tape". There is no adhesive on this stuff, it just fuses together.
<a href="http://www.davies.co.uk/insu.html" target="_blank">http://www.davies.co.uk/insu.html</a> (look at AT87)
I have now got some of this and it's strange stuff.It's like hard rubber that fuses together in a strange way. It is colored black and I have made various attempts to extract the coloring with petrol and toluene but it will not filter out! :( I guess my C4 will look quite funky.
If I can't get my hands on some Ethyl hexyl sebecate then I'm gona try to make some C4 without it. I think I will use more motor oil in place of it.I think it may be a good idea to use some Lecithin as an emulsion agent (about 1%?).
Can someone comment on the expected plasticity of this (using more oil) Because I am not familiar with the constancy of Ethyl hexyl sebecate so I can't predict it. Or if anyone could give some more better ratios for this method that would be great! :)

[nbk2000]

EHS is to PIB what gasoline is to styrofoam. Without the EHS, all you'll have is bits of solid PIB mixed in with your explosive. EHS is what makes PIB a moldable putty. It's what's known as a plasticizer.

There are other plasticizers out there. Call a local (to you) <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=geon+resin" target="_blank">company selling Geon vinyl resin</a> and speak to their technical support people. Tell them that you're using it to make toys according to an expired patent that mentions Geon 121. They'll tell you Geon 121 isn't made any more. Ask them for a similar resin and what would be a good plasticizer to use. They'll tell you. Ask them who makes it. They'll tell you.

Then call up the plasticizer people and tell them you need a sample of it to test with the sample of resin you got from the Geon people.

Try to get a sebecate, but a pthalate (SP?) will work as well.

I got ten pounds of Geon from Monsanto, and two quarts of phtlate from Kodak. All for free. Used it for making frangible rubber shotgun slugs and waterproofing magazines. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

[Dhzugasvili]

Cutefix, whata load of helpful information! Well, I have already started to make the RDX...So far i have about 80g, so i will keep making more and more!! Bwa haha! Mongo Blongo, As for Diethyl Hexyl Sebecate, i would think it is a necessary ingredient if you want to make proper C4, otherwise you might get some shit mixture. I have no troubles acquiring chemicals so i managed to get the proper amount at a local "Inovation Workers" supply store. :D As for how i made the HMX, i used the recipe on Mega's site but not with the same amounts of the reactants of course, because, if you look at it...It is a fuckload of 'em! And i don't have a glass reaction bin that large, but ill get one, and then i'll start cranking out the stuff like a bunny on viagra. The HMX procedure is one of those that you have to devote an entire day for, lengthy and a lot of waiting around. You really have to have everything organized. But after refluxing, the best part of it is when you cool down the mix with ice and look at all the lovely crystals start to precipitate "Whoa!!" is all you can say. Ah! What excitement! Hehe. And you stink of the characteristic Acetic smell for a couple of days. Also the RDX procedure is very DODGY at first when you first make it like i did about 8 months ago. It used to be surprisingly difficult not to get a runaway nitration, but now im so in tune with it that it is just a matter of patient calculation. The best procedure i have found for RDX with the best yields involves n-nitration, the most basic, taking 120ml of anhydrous nitric acid (purged of dissolved NOx with urea) to 75g dry methenamine, and then after addition is complete heating the mix to 55 deg Celcius for ten minutes and then cooling and precipitating. Once i start making the RDX/HMX into C4 i will report everything.
Cheers.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Ah yes, the good old "sample" scam. It works nearly everytime and you can get ahold of rare and watched chemicals for free. This all depends on how good of a liar you are ofcourse.

If you cant find Ethyl hexyl sebecate, you can use other things to make composistions similar to C-4. Ive seen a method for making "C-4" that uses polypropylene glycol in a book. If anyones interested ill look for the procedure.

[mongo blongo]

Oh, I thought the mineral oil was the plasticizer like in C-1.
Thanks for the info NBK! I will try that.
ALENGOSVIG- It would be great if you could post the method! :)

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Naturally, if you sound like a kid, it's not going to work. For the first few times, don't call places that you'll actually be trying to get goodies from. Call places you could care nothing about. Practice on them, and get your "rap" down first. Then, when you're good at it, start calling for real.

[Dhzugasvili]

Alen, i understand you are in Canada, well so am I, its a piece of cake getting chemicals here isn't it? eheheh. Before i was in Kenya, and there is where i started my explosives projects....there it was even EASIER to obtain any fucken chemical you want...but Canada is also easy if you try. For fuck's sake, at Canadian Tyre you can get 1 litre of Acetone for 5 bucks.

[nbk2000]

I can get a gallon of acetone for $4 at the hardware store. I can also get AN at $15/50 pounds.

When doing the "free sample" scam, know what you're talking about. You make one "newbie" mistake about the chemical or it's reactions, and the chemist at the tech support is going to know you're full of shit.

I used the ruse of being the purchasing agent, rather than the chemist who'd be using the stuff. This would explain away any technical errors I made about the product in question, and allowed me leeway in making requests for the chems.

Naturally, you have to sound confidant and professional. That means NO profanities (fuck, shit), hesitation or indecision (um, er, uh, well, hmm), or slang (ya know?, dude, cool).

If they give you any grief and ask to speak to the chemist directly, tell them that they're russian and that the person who translates for them is out at the moment.

Good covers for this scam depends on the chemicals you're trying to get. For plasitcizers, you're a plastics, toy, or research company. I always used the excuse of being a private research lab, thus we can't discuss our clients projects, thus can't give details about the intended final use of the sample.

But I can tell them that the finished product will initally require at least a ton a year of it to make "the Product". That makes their ears perk up and listen to what you have to say. And more likely to spread 'em. :D

Depending on your use, you may want to try polymerized polyvinyl alcohol. The PVA powder is mixed with the HMX, then a small amount of saturated borax solution is added to cause the reaction. The dilute stuff is the slime you get at the toy store. The concentrated form should be more rubbery, but it may not be like you want.

Anyone here knows what "floam" is? It's little polystyrene beads that are coated with something that makes them stick to each other without being sticky. You can mold it and such. I'm thinking granular HMX treated with the shit off the floam (washed off with solvent) might work too.

[vulture]

I don't know how things work in the states, but if you call a tech support here, you'll get someone from a callcenter who either is part of a callcenter that handles tech support for companies or you talk with a PR person or some interim dude. They read the answers from the computer and don't know the answers to most questions, but also don't know shit about chemistry.

[nbk2000]

What the hell are you talking about? :confused:

When I say "tech support" in regards to a chemical company, I'm not talking about college interns doing a summer job answering phones. I'm talking about dealing with the chemists and engineers at companies like Monsanto, Occidential Chemical, 3M, Aldrich, Fluka, Kodak, and other Fortune 500 companies.

You may very well be speaking to the person who invent/built the very thing you're calling them about, so you'd better know your shit or you've blown it.

[zaibatsu]

For anyone in the UK borax can be bought from Boots in medium sized boxes. Be careful how much borax you add, if you add too much its able to bounce!

[zaibatsu]

I don't believe that that search engine displays everything Boots sells, or I could just be entering the wrong thing into it. I believe it is sold as detergent/starch or something similar, I got it from the section with kitchen goods, sodium hydroxide, coffee grinders, brewing stuff etc.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

I couldnt find the C-4 methed in was lookng for but i found a similar one that also uses polypropylene glycol. In this method, the final product is pressed at high pressure to obtain a good moldable plastic explosive.

Materials:
602g of RDX
15.3g polypropylene glycol

Procedure:
1) To a beaker, add 602g of RDX, 15.3g of polypropylene glycol, and 80ml of water.
2) Blend this mixture for 1 hour then dry it at 50 degrees celsius for 24 hours.
3) Press under high pressure into sheets or and desired mold.

Borax can be found at almost any grocery store in the section that has all the detergents and soaps.

<small>[ March 24, 2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

[cutefix]

Alen,I think what you are suggesting is a form of an explosive molding powder,which is not very plastic and workable by hand.You can make that way,but its not really the authentic C-4;but related to it as PBX.Its a Stiff example of plastic bonded explosive,having minimal amount of polymer binder and no plasticizer to make it appear soft.Being pressed at high pressure it will be firm .You may have to bore a hole carefully into it for the blasting cap.Unlike in the normal plastic where you will just poke a hole easily(for the cap) due to its softer consistency .
It is likely to exhibit higher density and higher content of RDX(i.e,it has lower content of inert material in it);therefore more powerful than normal C-4(i.e,exhibit VOD above 8000 m/s).The PBXN-5 used as explosive filler in 20-30mm automatic cannon shell is almost similar in ratio to it except that it contains HMX,and other polyner.

[ALENGOSVIG1]

From what i've read about the exlosive, once it is pressed it should be quite mouldable similar to C-4. Although not "real" C-4, it is supposed to have properties similar to the real thing. I've never made it myself so none of what i say is from first hand experience, just things i've read in books.

I wouldnt plastice my RDX in the first place. Sure plastique would be better to use than straight RDX in SOME applications, but i dont think its worth spending the money on. I'd just press the RDX and save my money. If you can get a free sample of the plasticizers, then go for it. I just wouldnt spend the extra money.

<small>[ March 25, 2002, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

[Dhzugasvili]

You know Alen, you bring up a very good point. I might as well not make all of the charge into C4 because i am going to be loading it into a rather large container anyway. The reason, apart from interest, that i wanted to make it into C4 was that it makes me a lot more comfortable handling and loading C4 into a cap than 3kg of RDX/HMX mixed at 70% to 30% respectively. As you can see, this is a rather large bomb i am going to build. This will be number two for me in this order of magnitude, however, i was unable to film the last event, but i did take pictures, however they are not too good and i don't have the tech savvy skills many of you here do so i don't know what i would need to compress a video and post pics. I will for sure film this, and i am planning to demolish an abandoned structure i have found somewhere, however, because of the nature of the explosion and the architecture of the structure, i am unsure of where to place the charge, in the basement, or in the middle somewhere where the living room used to be. As of yet i can only give a rough estimate of how large the space the structure occupies is: it encompasses an area of about 144meters squared. Will 3kg be enough to send this thing to hell? Whoa! What an event this should be, i want to post a video of this but im not sure if i should (if you know what i mean) or how do compress the video and get it on the web. So far i have accumulated 160g of RDX and 50g of HMX, so i still got a bit to go before i have 3kg. Also, how do you recommend i do the loading and to what density? I already have an idea because i already did a search or two, i just wanna know what y'all think. YEah, so any suggestions on how the cap loading should be carried out are welcome. And oh, i used up some of the rdx to make a small rocket propelled grenade, but since this is slightly drifting off topic...hmmm... in any case what i did was i used a STRONG rocket propellant and a metal lathe for fashioning the nozzle, and the nosecone, and the cap itself. I welded much of the fins together (without the charge inside OF COURSE)and attached the bomb at the top. Initiation was carried out by a pin so when it hit surface, pin pushed in, crushing h2so4 vessel, spilling it on chlorate sugar mix, which ignited instantly, initiating the blasting cap within the warhead, which was AP, about 7grams, detonating rdx which was about 80g, pressed in tight, im not sure to what density (even though it is easy to calculate, i was feeling lazy). Anyway, there was a delay in the time from when it hit the surface to initiation, so the bomb was stuck in the wall for about a second. Rocket was launched from metal tube. Rocket propellant was ammonium perchlorate/aluminum/rust/pottasium perchlorate/epoxy binder, cut out from within into a 6 point star formation to maximize specific impulse generated. Initiation of propellant was done with BP. BP was remotely initiated with remote toy car controler.

[DBSP]

How big is the structure approx. 3 kg isn't gona bring a large house to the ground. Why don't you add some ANFO, this might however ruining the fun of seeing the damage of the RDX/HMX.. Place the charge in the middel of everything if you're uncertain of where to put it.

[xoo1246]

Anyway you would have to know which walls are holding the house up.
Or seal the house up and fill it with some in-expensive highly flamable gas.
Then you initiate the gas/air mixture with small charges (maybe 50-300 gram). Can't you take some pictures of the interior and exteriour of the house and post it. If you don't have a ftp simply upload to the forum ftp or i'll host you.

I got a book on emplosions of large structures today, bought it together with some other books, not a very informative book but it has very nice pictures(that sounded kewl).

<small>[ March 25, 2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

3 kilos of HMX is equal to about 6 kilos of TNT. That much TNT is a 155mm artillery shell. And a 155mm shell will definately demolish a house.

I'd put the charge in the basement because the blast will seek the path of least resistance. That's not going to be through 25,000 miles of earth, but it will be a couple of pieces of wood (roof/floor).

You could toss a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline on top of the charge with some crushed aluminum cans on top of the explosive to add a nice firball effect.

[xoo1246]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> You could toss a few 5 gallon cans of gasoline on top of the charge with some crushed aluminum cans on top of the explosive to add a nice firball effect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That would be very likely to start a fire(I know, my idea too), which would result in that he couldn't examine the house after the blast.
Still it would give a nice effect.

[DBSP]

What I meant with my last post was that it wont bring it to the ground, (level it).. ofcource(how is this spelled) it will do some serius damage. How long is it to the nearest house/village/town?
The sound is definately gona be impressive. If you can hear 1kg ANFO over 7km away how long can you hear this one!!

Personally I don't like the gasoline thing. Not at the same time as the RDX/HMX, I think it should be enjoied as it is. If you like the gasoline thing you could do that after the main charge.

[Dhzugasvili]

Since this is going to be a rather big event i will be sure to drive off from the locale at least 2kms away. I just thought of one thing...what if the car doesnt start? AAh!! I haven't even done this yet and it is making me paranoid...im sure many of you know the feeling. :D I can take some pictures of the house. I will do that as soon as i can. It sounds like a good idea to put it in the basement, since this will cause the shockwave to be propagated in certain ways creating more constructive interference due to reflection from surfaces of the structure (The Chemistry and Technology of Explosives - Tadeusz Urbanski). However, id bet this will muffle the sound a bit, and make it a very dull, deeep sound. Id probably be able to see more damage to the house this way, but i wont see the bright flash of the bomb...i will do it at night. I have a question...or two...putting gasoline on top of this charge might cause what i read somewhere (?) to be an "atomized particle explosion" in essence, the energy in the fuel molecules would be unleashed and the fuel would detonate, multiplying the effect of the charge itself by ten fold. But i want to see the damage of the RDX/HMX mix alone, so adding anything else does not seem like a good idea. Hmm...slightly off topic but correct me if im wrong about the "atomized particle explosion" -its supposed to be a very effective way of bringing down such structures as buildings. I WILL measure the house, the above was just a rough estimate. What i am planning to use as the container for the bomb is a paint can....what d'y'all think? It is not easy finding a suitable container. Heavy metal container means that it will absorb energy from the blast and make it less powerful for my uses. Maybe i should use a plastic container even. Three destructive effects of bombs are: Fragmentation, Blast Pressure (what do you think will be the psi generated for like 20meters away from the house?), and extreme heat for a thousandth of a second. A lot of shrapnel will be generated, that is for sure. The sound will be very impressive.....OH im SO ExCited!! heheheh. The nearest settlement is about 18km away, but there are sporadic residences up to 6km away from the target.

[xoo1246]

This is no facts but based on what I have read, I have no practical experience on true(detonating) FAE:s.
About FAE:s(Fuel Air Explosives), not sure there would be a fireball effect simply putting a container of fuel on top of the explosive. The fuel can't burn without oxygen and the duration of the heat/chock is very short, thus the fuel will not ignite at all or burn partially at the wrong moment(when there are too little oxygen). I doubt i would ignite at all.
Remember you put out oil-fires with dynamite, and military FAE:s aren't initated by the first detonation of the burster charge. They are initiated by secondary (maybe aluminiumized) charges when the fuel/air mix is right(from seconds down to a couple of hundred milliseconds). This recuires some timing, if I wanted to bring a building down using the FAE metod I would seal the building up and fill it partially with some in-expensive flameable gas(close the ventilations,windows and doors, nothing complicated). Then I would use small charges to start the super-sonic burning of the fuel.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh and for the casing, why care about fragmentation in the basement?
Use a plastic bag or whatever simple casing you find lying around(your paint bucket). The house will stand for the fragmentation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
How are you going to start your blasting cap? Fuse?

<small>[ March 25, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

It'd be about 3 PSI overpressure. This is going at 1,100FPS and will hit you in 1/20th of a second. However, you're MUCH to close for fragmentation unless you're behind a huge boulder or in a deep hole.

If the charge is in the basement, most of the debris is going to be shot up, not out. Thus it'll be raining down on top of your head.

If you used the gasoline idea, the explosion vaporizes the fuel, and the aluminium cans are broken into pieces and ignited, which disperse through the fuel cloud till it reaches an explosive ratio and ignites. This would be an almost instant burning, rather than a prolonged flame, so there's little likelyhood of the whole place catching on fire.

You're right about the muffling to a certain extent, but I doubt that 3Kg of HMX is going to be very quiet. :) People will feel it, if not hear it, for miles.

Leave the car running when you light the fuse, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dhzugasvili]

xoo1246: ehehe...Of course i wasn't concerned about fragmentation in the basement! HEH! That would be kind of stupid, wouldn't it? But i guess what i should have said in my reply is that I was wondering if it is actually true that a metal container Hinders the blast pressure effect more than a plastic one...and i guess it would make sense because it takes more energy to break apart metal than plastic, so if i were to use a metal container, (for these purposes) i would get less power out of the bomb than the theoretical calculation. But im not sure if this is a considerable amount...whatever, it's a very minor issue anyway.

Oh, and im just going to use one of my really good slow/fast fuse combinations because they are as safe as can be and i don't see the point of any other sort of ignition. HEHE, i will leave the car running!

I agree at 20 meters i would be totally fucked (no shit). Would it make sense taking the car if i was just going to drive 20 meters? HEheh. I was just wondering what will become of a run down bulldozer that is right there, :D I am planning to be AT LEAST 500m away.

[mongo blongo]

I don't think the paint can would make any significant difference to the power. If you use the paint can, you can press your explosive into a higher density giving a slightly higher VOD which would make up for the slight loss in power from the can.

[mark]

Wear your goggles is all Im going to say. That, and have fun and play safe.

[Anthony]

I agree, the difference in strength of metal and plastic paint can isn't going to make shit all difference to that amount of high performance explosive.

FAEs using "gasonline"/propane etc don't actually detonate, they simply flash burn with the atmospheric oxygen, only generating around 30psi of over pressure but 30psi is much more than even reinforced concrete buildings can take.

[xoo1246]

So there is no chock waves with (propane/butane)/O2 mixtures initiated with HE:s, are you sure?

[kingspaz]

theres no shockwave in the sense that HE's have a shockwave. i believe there is a pressure front infront of the burn face which has the ability to move things such as walls out the way. the wave moves much slower than a detonation wave. think of it kinda like a pipe bomb. the BP burns so fast that the hot gases produced burst the pipe. the propane would burn so fast that its bursts the house. hot gasses take up much more space than cold gasses. therefore the hot gases produced take up more space. also due to the fact that 1 mole of ANY gas takes up a specific amount. therefore, 1 mole of propane produces 3 moles of CO2 - 3 times the volume!

[xoo1246]

Yes, I know about those gas laws. But according to a pdf on FAE:s about mine clearance, a FAE can have a detonation velocity of around 1800m/s and a detonation pressure of 19 bar(unconfined).(I uploaded it to the ftp some time ago) That not a very brisant detonation, but still a detonation.
So if you had the right mixture in the house, there would probably be a great differance if you lit a match or detonated 75 grams of HE to start the reaction. The first generating only sub-sonic burn speeds.

<small>[ March 27, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Zambosan]

Fuel-air mixtures do indeed detonate. Of course, the VOD is very low due to the low density and compressibility; but the explosion bears the hallmark of a detonation: the reaction progresses via the energy carried by a shock wave, not from heat convection.

[kingspaz]

ah, stupid me. i just realised, the detonation shockwave from the HE travels through the whole FA mixture kinda like the primary explosive shockwave travelling through the entire HE charge. is that correct? therefore detonation occurs as the shockwave breaks all the molecules bonds and they reform into exhasut gasses due to the greater entropy of these products?

[mark]

If he just hooks up the hmx to an acetlyne tank, hell get his detonatonation, at around 3,300m/s and incredible heat too.

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Dhzugasvili]

Interesting....very interesting...I wonder for an FAE, where to position the HE charge, on the side of the FUel container, bottom, top? Does it even matter...? But in any case, this detonation will not involve an FAE, i just wanna see what 3kg of HMX/RDX will do to this house, hence probably demolish most of it if not all of it, according to what has been said here so far. Hey, and so far i got myself 500g, of combined RDX/HMX!! SO im getting there!! But yess that is drifting off topic - the FAEs, but nevertheless it is interesting, considering that fuel can be acquired cheaply in large amounts...i wonder what fuel would detonate the fastest? Here's an idea, what if the fuel where nitrobenzene...? Hmmm...maybe that will be my next project...but for now, must crank up summmor RDX/HMX :D

[Zambosan]

Acetylene is dissolved in acetone that has been absorbed in kieselguhr (hydrated silica, diatomaceous earth). My guess is that this makes the tank less sensitive to mechanical shocks than pure, compressed H2C2 (!!).

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[a_bab]

Acetylene is stored in tanks containing acetone and kiesengur as Zambosan said because it will be decomposed with a explosion when compressed. And is very soluble in acetone if compressed (similar somehow with ammonia in water)
I guess that the maximum (critical) pressure for plain acetylene is around 2-3 bars. This is because the triple link between C atoms is not so stable...

So, forget acetylene for FAE. Try with a fuel tank :D

I whould still prefere not to waste 3 kg of HMX/RDX on cheap effects...

[ENGINEERKILLER]

What is the building made out of ?Would it be possible to flood the basement .Besides the exterior walls are there any load bearing supports in the basement.

[Dhzugasvili]

Engineerkiller, im not so sure what the point of flooding the basement would be...explain. And yeah, there are two load bearing supports in the basement...but again, what difference does this make with the amount of explosive i am using? The house is made out of mostly wood (? that material houses in North Am. are made out of), some concrete, some metal, and other things i wouldn't know what they are called.

[ENGINEERKILLER]

If the basement is full of water you will get more energy focused upward,static overpressure and your shock wave.Elimination of load bearing supports will increase the probablility of a catastrophic structure failure for example the house heaving up and collapsing on itself during the negative shock wave period.If the house was made out of brick or stone I think the amount of damage would be less than if it was made out of wood.Wood doesn't fly as far either

NBK where did you get the tnt equivelency .According to my team book I only got 1.2.

[nbk2000]

I got it from a '70s SF demolition handbook. It's probably wrong. But somehow 1.2 when comparing HMX to TNT doesn't "feel" right, you know? But I'll take your word for it.

Anyways, what happened with tuesday and the pictures? Didn't get the opprotunity?

[xoo1246]

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<small>[ December 11, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Dhzugasvili]

Well, i have taken pictures of the outside and the inside of the house, its just a bitch to get a hold of the scanner, so i still have to scan them in...but once i have them scanned in, what do i do?

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 11, 2002, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[ENGINEERKILLER]

I have been busy most people don't know this but us army E.O.D personel work with the secret service on protective details for the president.We aslo provide support to any goverment agency that might require our assitance.Not law enforcement (that would be a violation of posse comatatus Sp)just bomb disposal and sweeps.We just had a bad accident on post involving a 120mm mortar so I have been busy but I got some leave I will be taking,I will work on it then .sorry for the delay.

[nbk2000]

I understand. The army keeps you busy. And what with dubya's "axis of evil" retoric, I'm sure you've been kept busy with the SS trying to keep the bastard alive.

:D

I've been contacting sensor manufacturers, trying to find a suitable magnetic influence detector for the IPDM. Once I do that, it'll be time for the "sample" scam. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Teck]

Where would you buy Ethyl hexyl sebecate plasticizer?

I've made a few searches, the only distributers I found sold to big companies.

It would be cool if some one sold it to the public.

[mongo blongo]

Hi!
Sorry to bring up an old topic.
It's about the post above from cutefix :
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
Small scale C-4 manufacture.
Prepare this in this series.
A.Coating mixture (LACQUER)
1)Put 12.5 gram of medium viscosity PIB (M.w.100,000,Vistanex grade MM-L-100),cut to 1-2cm sizes.soak it in 170 grams white gasoline (or toluene).Heat the mixture at 60-70 while stirring for 1-2 hours until dissolved.
2)Place in the solution of 8 grams of SAE-10 motor oil and 29.5 gram of your diethyl hexyl sebacate and mix well.Cool to 30 C.Set aside.
B.SLURRY and GRANULATION PROCESS:
In a 10 liter steam kettle with stirrer,(preferably no open flame here).This equipment can be replaced with an alternative electrically heated jacketed type vessel, with a propeller type impeller to stir the slurry at high speed.
Place 500+ gram granular RDX into 5500 cc of water.Place 0.2gram gelatin( as dispersing agent) and heat to 75C.Add your coating mixture within 1-2 minutes,while stirring at high speed 450-500 RPM(required in order to obtain proper mixing,coating and better granulation of the explosive) .
Raise the temperature to 90- 100C,to (completely remove the solvent)then cool to 60 C,and filter through a Buchner funnel(under vacuum) to remove most of the water.

DRYING/PLASTICIZING
Place the granules on a shallow pan to a depth of 2cm.Air dry(you can use a heated air from portable hair dryer) for faster drying.
Plasticizing-This step is preferably done right during the drying process( if you have a small sigma blade high shear mixer with a heating jacket and heating to more than 60C(at higher temperature it will plasticize faster) while kneading mechanically..This process will enable you to get the optimum density and therefore a higher VOD. Above 7800m/s for pure RDX(maybe more for your RDX/HMX blend).
In home preparation,you can knead your (granulated,coated,and airdried) C-4 powder , by gloved hand(avoid skin contact to the explosive!) until you obtain a putty like mass.
You can use a 5-quart kitchen aid mixer with a flat paddle attachement,and allowing it to mix at low speed until you get a homogenous mass,If the dough appears to be rather stiff,sprinke little white gasoline on it, While mixing. The total plastic explosive weight is more than half a kilo and just right for the mixer.Its much better if your mixer has a jacketed bowl and you pour boiling water into the jacket as heating medium.This will soften the plasticizer and better cohesion of the granules will result inorder to form a uniform paste.If these is your system you will need a lower viscocity PIB(MolWt 75000 or less.Vistanex Grade MM-L-80)
As your plasticizing is not that efficient and your mass may contain gas bubbles.Here your resulting explosive will have a VOD in the vicinity of 7500m/s.In commercial process kneading , plasticizing,drying is done simultaneously under vacuum,so that gas bubbles will not be introduced into the mass and optimum density is obtained.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I was wondering if in the "SLURRY and GRANULATION PROCESS", at this bit
"In a 10 liter steam kettle with stirrer,(preferably no open flame here).This equipment can be replaced with an alternative electrically heated jacketed type vessel, with a propeller type impeller to stir the slurry at high speed."
Would a kitchen blender do the trick?
I am asking this because it sounds a bit insane to put RDX in something like this!

[cutefix]

Hello Mongo,
One important part in these process is to use a jacketed implement so as to enable to raise the required temperature necessary for the process.An improvised equipment with similar performance will do the trick nicely.However using a kitchen blender, I cannot vouch on that because I have never seen it tried in that way.That may be a possibility,but you may have to preheat the water before you place in the crystalline explosive and the coating composition in the improvised agitating equipment.Check also the RPM its operating.It should not be used above 500 RPM.The agitation time is 2 minutes maximum.
The purpose for that is to disperse the RDX particulates so as to be uniformly coated with the lacquer.Water wet RDX is very stable and and that is one of the secrets in ensuring safety in the production of plastic explosives ;knowing these explosives are sensitive to friction.Other operators moisten the dry RDX with at least 10% water before adding it to the agitator.to ensure safety.

[mongo blongo]

Hi Cutefix,
Thanx! I was thinking of improvising some kind of heating jacket for the blender. I'm not sure if I'm going to try a blender since the one I have now has no indicator of the RPM.
I have a few more questions about it.

1. About the "propeller type impeller", is it one of these? <a href="http://www.usmotors.com/images/301-2c.gif" target="_blank">http://www.usmotors.com/images/301-2c.gif</a>
I thought an impeller was the thing used in pumps?

2.Why is the maximum agitation time is 2 minutes? What will happen if it goes on for longer?

3.What type is the granulation state of the RDX before adding it to the agitator? Is it ultrafine or is it normal crystal size and then the agitator does the particle size reduction? It would be best to add ultrafine right?

I am also thinking up of a way to make a simple improvised vacuum apparatus with which to plasticize the C4. I will post it when I have a good method.

Thanx!

[cutefix]

Mongo,I am pleased to know that you are interested in improvising these C-4 manufacture. There are many ways in how it can be done.Indeed it may not be milspec or standardized laboratory equipment you are thinking to use for this.The important thing to consider is the principle is the same.And that will still work anyway.However if you will add 10 parts of liquid to 1 part of RDX.Knowing that kitchen blender capacity do not reach ten liters,you will predictably take a lot of time as well as careful measurements of some of these little ingredients to achieve your goal.
Are you satisfied in making just a few grams of plastic explosive?As For me a half a kilo C-4 is the minimum that should be made in order to make your efforts worth while.
Anyway,Any impeller that will enable the mix to be agitated well is suitable.Therefore, even the blender blades may work.However in my experience the smooth propeller type blades work well.The important part is during the agitation process is that a homogenous mixture will result and the lacquer will uniformly coat the particles of the explosives.
The agitation time was that brief ;and just enough for the explosive and the lacquer to be uniformly mixed.Mixing in whatever application has some unique behavior called”unmixing”;in which the mixed composite will return to an inhomogenous state.In addition extended time of agitation will gradually abrade the coated surface and exposed some parts of the explosive crystals used.There will be some changes in explosive characteristics because of exposed surfaces will increase impact sensitivity,as well as nonuniformity of the final product .In addition this will not be suitable and safe to plasticize in a heated and high shear conditions to form the plastic explosive where intensive friction between partially coated explosive crystals as well as abrasion with metal surface might initiate deflagration/detonation behavior.
Now the actual RDX specs used; were two types,as found to give optimum performance as shown from extensive tests as best initiated with their standard blasting cap reliably.

61% class A coarse RDX of which atleast 50% is retained in the US #100 sieve(145 microns).
30%class E fine RDX of which at a maximum of 3% is retained in the US # 325 sieve(44 microns).
However in your case that is not necessary,but its best if you can have a blend of two parts coarse and one part fine RDX .Staight Ultrafine RDX will not be suitable because that will be difficult to initate as there are few or no uneven sizes that can serve as locus points or nuclei for the shock of the detonator to set off.Ideally the composition of these irregular particles can be looked to form a "sandwich" in which the smaller particle is the "filling" and the PIB lacquer as the "wrapper".The uneven sizes of the explosive crystals will be compressed during shock from detonator initiation .This can happen as the shock will tend to raise the temperature due to adiabatic compression and melt the binder in a matter of almost a microsecond,and will be gasified to serve partly as bubble/void for initiation.Then it will also facilitate better contact and friction between the now exposed uneven explosive particles and shock compression will set it off to a high order detonation.With very fine uniform particles it will likely need a stronger booster to set it off,and well be unreliable to use as well.

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: cutefix ]</small>

[Flake2m]

I would suggest using electrical detonation, as it is safer. Use some rocket igniters in your blasting caps. I would buy a very very long spool of wire that can be connected to your power supply (car battery) you may even want to attach a timer circuit to it. That way you can demolish your building at will (or abort it at a split seconds notice if the cops turn up).

I would suggest you attach you C4 to the support posts, so when the explosives detonate the building collapses. There should be several support posts in the basement.

If you want to add an FAE in the blast then place some C4 inside a drum, then fill the drum with the flammable fuel (gasoline, propane, etc) the C4 will disperse the fuel, and the other explosions will detonate it.

I would also build a bunker so you can take cover once the building blows. You should be able to place a video camera closer to the blast than yourself, just protect it with a piece of plywood that has a hole for the lens.

Oh, make sure that there is no one in the building when you blow it up, you dont want to be up for murder as well as creating Dangerous ordance if you get caught. I also would not return to the demolished house for about 6 weeks.

[mongo blongo]

Thanx Cutefix for some very interesting and helpful info! :)
Yes I wouldn't be making much C4 at a time. :)
That's a good idea to use a blend of coarse and fine RDX! I'm thinking that I would use something like 70% fine and 30% coarse RDX for a reasonably safe but reliable explosive to use.

About the vacuum apparatus to plasticize the C4- I think I could replace the stirrer in the blender with a new blade that is more suited to the task. Then put an air seal on the blender container with a hole for a pipe. Attach the pipe to a vacuum pump or a fridge pump to evacuate the air. The stirrer could either be turned manually or by a low setting on the blender. This would be very simple to make and should be quite effective.

Flake2m- Best to turn the camera around behind some kind of protective plywood wall and position a mirror angled so that you can see the explosion from the camera.

[Bad Company]

I ran across a sight that might interest and help some on this board.Do a search on Yahoo for Scientific Polymer Products,INC.They sell the polymers and plastisizers mentioned in the above posts.Hope this helps as a source.It doesn't say you have to be a company to order.On the order form it has a line for company name.Nothing says you can't use whatever name you want.

<small>[ May 17, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Bad Company ]</small>