453 g ammonium nitrate/AP booster charge for ANFO

[Fingerless]

I need your opinions. I want to detonate anfo(35-0-0 fertilizer, prill form-mixed with either diesel or 10% nitromethane) The ANFO will be put into a propane tank( 32 lb. I believe) I plan to use a strong AP cap (3/8" OD copper piping, 3 inches long, ends crimped and sealed with epoxy) which will set of a strong plastic container (453 grams)Inside this container is a 3:1 ratio of AP to pure ammonium nitrate. Its a good strong container and does achieve true detonation(Even the Ammn.)The cap is inserted so true detonation occurs and not so a flame hits anything and causes deflagration....Does anyone have any ideas for me? if they think the anfo will detonate? ( I don't want to waste my propane tank, fertilizer, and diesel or worse my 10% nitromethane if thats what I use.) And what type of boom and hole to expect http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Tony Montana]

Be aware that AP reacts with most metals (including copper) to form dangerously sensitive compounds. It will not happen straight away, personally I wouldnt touch AP that has been in contact with metal for more than a day. A very smart move is to coat the inside of the copper pipe with epoxy, or a straw is also a good idea. Also adding diesel oil to Ammonium Nitrate creates ANFO a notoriously stubborn (hard to detonate without booster) explosive. Mixing Nitromethane with AN creates ANNM another explosive I would not attempt to use without a booster, you are going to be very frustrated trying to detonate any AN type explosives without a booster! My advice to you is read this thoroughly: http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000444.html
and reply to it, as its a waste watching that post fade away.

[HNIW]

It is easy to set off ANFO composition. Take small aluminium pipe, cover the inner walls with varnish and put a paper roll inside to isolate HMTD from metal. Make a mixture consisting of HMTD, acetone and a little bit of nitrostarch. This composition is good to press into the pipe. Use about 3-4g. Make sure that the explosive is dry. Pipe should be clamped on both sides. Make a composition 5% of acetone 5% of powdered Al and 90% of powdered ammonium nitrate. This detonator with HMTD will set off it for sure.

[Fingerless]

Did you even read my post or just the first part? I mentioned that I will be using a booster, which is the 453 gram container of AP and pure ammn. This is detonated with a cap. This DOES achieve detonation, I have done if before. I know that ANFO is stubborn-thats why I want to use this huge booster detonated with a cap-please read my post again to get what I'm talking about. I'm not an idiot trying to use just a homemade cap to detonate ANFO http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gifIf your not thinking in the metric system, 453 grams is a big charge. (460 mL-15.5 ounces volume wise.) These charges along are quite powerful. I was just asking if anyone thought it would work. It wouldn't be as brisant as dynamite or TNT, I don't think, but it might just work.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tony Montana:
Be aware that AP reacts with most metals (including copper) to form dangerously sensitive compounds. It will not happen straight away, personally I wouldnt touch AP that has been in contact with metal for more than a day. A very smart move is to coat the inside of the copper pipe with epoxy, or a straw is also a good idea. Also adding diesel oil to Ammonium Nitrate creates ANFO a notoriously stubborn (hard to detonate without booster) explosive. Mixing Nitromethane with AN creates ANNM another explosive I would not attempt to use without a booster, you are going to be very frustrated trying to detonate any AN type explosives without a booster! My advice to you is read this thoroughly: http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000444.html
and reply to it, as its a waste watching that post fade away.</font>

[Fingerless]

Oh, I coat the inside of caps with paraffin wax so the Ap doesn't touch the metal.

[HNIW]

I don't understand your problem. Of course this booster will set off ANFO. I'm just telling that 4g of pressed HMTD will set off in a plastic bag. I don't need propane tank, your charge looks rather like a stronger pipe bomb. I'm only telling that it is useless to use to use such big booster. In demolitions I use booster consisting of 40g of RDX. This booster set off fertiliser with petroleum. One need only 4 g of HMTD inside the small pipe - it is much safer than booster with AP because such booster is extremely flammable. I'm just suggesting an easier way to set off ANFO.

[Fingerless]

Well, from all the information I've gathered ANFO isn't too easy to set off. I don't want to use my aluminum powder that bad but I guess I could. I just wanted a straight mix. Have you tried your mix? Did you get a thorough detonation or just partial?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HNIW:
It is easy to set off ANFO composition. Take small aluminium pipe, cover the inner walls with varnish and put a paper roll inside to isolate HMTD from metal. Make a mixture consisting of HMTD, acetone and a little bit of nitrostarch. This composition is good to press into the pipe. Use about 3-4g. Make sure that the explosive is dry. Pipe should be clamped on both sides. Make a composition 5% of acetone 5% of powdered Al and 90% of powdered ammonium nitrate. This detonator with HMTD will set off it for sure.</font>

[Fingerless]

OVer 30 pounds of high explosive doesn't sound like a pipe bomb to mehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I will use a propane tank to insure good confinement, making the shockwave more efficient to insure a better chance of detonation. Yes, I could substitute HMTD for the AP in my cap and in my ammn./ap booster I could use HMTD instead, no problem, but I dont think its going to matter as long as the cap detonates as does the booster-packed AP is more powerful than packed HMTD, so why bother with HMTD when AP will work better? However RDX isn't a viable booster for me, I don't have access to nitric acid, unfortunately. I'm thinking of synthesizing some, so we'll see.

If fertilizer/fuel oil is so easy to detonate with a few grams of HMTD, why don't blasters just use a cap for it? They use a strong booster of dynamite to detonate it. Kinepak, a mix of pure ammonium nitrate and nitromethane is easily detonated by a cap, but I have never heard or seen of ANFO being so.

However, I don't want to shut you down without trying it. I'll try something to see if your idea has any viability. I will use a AP cap-4 grams as you say-to set off an ammonium nitrate explosive.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HNIW:
I don't understand your problem. Of course this booster will set off ANFO. I'm just telling that 4g of pressed HMTD will set off in a plastic bag. I don't need propane tank, your charge looks rather like a stronger pipe bomb. I'm only telling that it is useless to use to use such big booster. In demolitions I use booster consisting of 40g of RDX. This booster set off fertiliser with petroleum. One need only 4 g of HMTD inside the small pipe - it is much safer than booster with AP because such booster is extremely flammable. I'm just suggesting an easier way to set off ANFO.</font>

[Fingerless]

Oh, also, using a strong blasting cap of packed AP (More than your 4g-around 10 at least It was around there-I didnt measure for sure though-the cap was copper, 3/8" OD, 3" long-crimped and epoxied on both ends) this strong cap was unable to detonate a 1:1 mixture of 425 grams of AP to ammonium nitrate(100% pure) in a strong plastic container-how the hell can a 4g cap detonate a ANFO charge? I've heard of aluminum powder de-sensitizing it, but that much!!??

[HNIW]

I'm not saying that HMTD will set of fertiliser without petroleum. Although I'm working in polish demolition company I was working about half a year to put ANFO into detonation using homemade blasting cap. First of all HMTD have to be pressed inside the pipe that's why you have to mix it with acetone and nitrostarch. You need about 3-4 g HMTD. Then you are preaparing a mixture 5% of acetone ( pertoleum is worser
) 5% of Al powder and 90% of powdered fertilizer. This blasting cap will set of this mixture without any problems - full detonation. If you don't have Al you will need a small booster ( 5g of pressed HMTD ) or you can just use 2 blasting caps. In the second situation ammonium nitrate must be very dry and don't use more than 5% of acetone. The mixture with Al is stronger and is more reliable. In my coutry powdered Al is so cheap that for a few $ I can buy 1kg.
Using this ANFO you can set off granular fertilizer with petroleum. Put for sure 1kg of this explosive inside for example 50kg of fertilizer with petroleum and you will make a big hole in the ground.
For a proove that this mixture I will show you my photos, the first two were made using about 1-1,5 kg of my mixture.
http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/images/halda4d.jpg
http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/images/1woda1.jpg

For more pictures visit these links, these are from my unofficial site

http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/piro.htm
http://www.ret-net.mm.com.pl/wyburzenia1.htm

Such pictures you won't find in the internet.

[Fingerless]

Interesting. How much have you had success at detonating at once? (smallest amounts) Do you know the minimum detonatabla amount? Do you provide any containment for the mixture? I really don't have any al powder right now, but I suppose I could grind up an aluminum block somehow.

[Mr Cool]

I doubt that'll get it fine enough to be a useful sensitier. If you want a booster for ANFO, ANMNN should work. The mixture with mononitronapthalene appears to be quite a lot more sensitive.

[HNIW]

Mr. Cool in my opinion the better solution is to mix ammonium nitrate with urea nitrate that is stronger and can be easilly made. This solution will set off using blasting cap no. 6.
Fingerless I always detonate this inside plastic bag or rolled paper. I thing that minimum amount is about 200g but I suggest 400g for sure. You can ask pyrotechnics, they will surely have Al powder. There is one more thing, you will not set off this mixture using my blasting cap if you for example hang it on the tree. It needs to be put on a gound or just inside the borehole otherwise it will just spread around.

[Fingerless]

I'm skeptical, but I'll try it.
Unfortunately I don't have 100% nitromethane to use for ammn, its too expensive wherever I look. I do have several gallons of 10%, however.

[Tony Montana]

Fingerless Yes I read your whole post, and I did not assume your were an idiot! If you had of looked at the post I put the link up for you may have realised what I meant, instead of jumping to conclusions. For the record, when I said booster, I was refering to a booster explosive to detonate it, not a large amount of primary explosive! Booster = a less sensitive explosive, with higher VOD than primaries (e.g Picric Acid*, Tetryl)
Using larger amount of AP is dangerous! It has been said here before, As soon as you mix the ANFO or ANNM with your AP, the ANFO or ANNM is as sensitive, and dangerous as straight AP(better wash it good!)As you said you were loading it into copper pipes!!!!

HNIW, is using an improvised compound detonator, which is the same principle but on a smaller scale.

[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 26, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fingerless:
Interesting. How much have you had success at detonating at once? (smallest amounts) Do you know the minimum detonatabla amount? Do you provide any containment for the mixture? I really don't have any al powder right now, but I suppose I could grind up an aluminum block somehow.</font>


ANNM - 6mm column 2cm long with .4g HMTD

[Fingerless]

Make a large 1:1 batch of AP to Ammonium nitrate and mess with it. Then tell me its as sensitive as straight AP. THe AP might be just as sensitive but the ammn. sure isn't. 15 g of AP in a pipe isn't that large of an amount; I know people who have used AP a pound at a time for YEARS, but they are careful and use all clean equipment and are sure not to get impurities in the mix. A few 100 grams of AP will not pressure detonate if care is taken. Even if care is not taken it won't detonate under its own pressure unless you jar it or otherwise. Anyways, yes, large amounts of AP aren't advised etc., but let me worry about that. Its my body.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tony Montana:
Fingerless Yes I read your whole post, and I did not assume your were an idiot! If you had of looked at the post I put the link up for you may have realised what I meant, instead of jumping to conclusions. For the record, when I said booster, I was refering to a booster explosive to detonate it, not a large amount of primary explosive! Booster = a less sensitive explosive, with higher VOD than primaries (e.g Picric Acid*, Tetryl)
Using larger amount of AP is dangerous! It has been said here before, As soon as you mix the ANFO or ANNM with your AP, the ANFO or ANNM is as sensitive, and dangerous as straight AP(better wash it good!)As you said you were loading it into copper pipes!!!!

HNIW, is using an improvised compound detonator, which is the same principle but on a smaller scale.

[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 26, 2001).]</font>

[Tony Montana]

First, you ask for advice on detonating 453grams of ANFO or ANNM with a large amount of AP in a copper tube. Then I suggested that putting a large amount of AP in an uncoated copper tube, for more than a day was unadvisable. And that a booster (Picric Acid or Tetryl) should be used for reliable and full detonation. You then bashed my post and agreed with someone that told you that you can "Detonate ANFO or ANNM in a plastic bag, with 4 grams of pressed HMTD".If there is any truth to that, the results would be patchy at best. I never said AP would detonate under its own weight, or will it pressure detonate I said it dangerous in large amounts. After explaining that mixing ANFO or ANNM with AP, makes an explosive as sensitive as AP and as powerfull as ANFO or ANNM, you say its my body let me worry about it(I was just trying to help you out!). So im not worried about it, I hope your the next kewlio on the news, maimed by AP.(you, and your clever assosiates who make use pounds of AP at a time).

PS.You say make a large batch of 1:1 AP/ANNM.
I say get fucked, i will leave that to fools like you!

[HNIW]

Sorry guys I've made one mistake. In my blasting cap I'm not using nitrostarch but nitrocellulose. Once more sorry, but english isn't my native tongue.

[HNIW]

I just wanted to emphasize that my blasting cap won't set off typical ANFO - I mean granular ammonium nitrate with petroleum. It will only set off special compund 5% Al 5% acetone and 90% ammonium nitrate. Try not to use petroleum because it may not set off. I was working on this eplosive for about half a year and noticed that acetone is much better. You can of course use oil that won't evaporate but then you have to use stronger explosive. Explosive with oil can be stored for a long period. As a additional explosive I was using about 5g of RDX witch can be easilly made. But one think is sure my blasting cap will set off explosive with acetone and Al powder.

[Mr Cool]

Did you use crystaline, low-density AN? This makes mixtures that are considerably more sensitive.

[HNIW]

I'm using normal fertilizer that can be easilly bought. In Poland it's about 2$ per 10kg. I'm milling it using coffee mill. In the USA there might be some problems with AN because of recent terrorist bombings but in most countries there won't be any problems to get this fertilizer.

[Fingerless]

Read my post yet again, I didn't ask for advice on how to detonate 453 grams of anfo. I already know that a 453 gram charge of AP and ammonium nitrate will detonate, and I said I want to use it as a booster for ANFO. I also said I coat my tubing. I did not agree with this guy what so ever, I disagreed with him quite a bit. I said I would try it to see, maybe it would maybe it wouldnt. Why do you think I kept disagreeing with him!? And a mix of AP and ammonium nitrate will not make the ammonium nitrate as sensitive-like I said, mix AP to ammonium nitrate in a 1:1 mix and try and get a detonation with even a strong cap! Most likely the ammonium nitrate will not detonate at all or will just partially. Try it then say it. I don't make pounds of AP at a time, I said I knew a person who does! A couple of hundred grams of AP is not a pound. ANd it isn't made in one large batch, it is made from several small batches, taken to the blasting site separately and mixed. Still, I agree, its probablly not the safest. And you, hoping someone is maimed or killed by a high explosive just because they dont agree with you or have differant view or opinions than you? One, that makes you a real dickhead, and second a tyrannical, nazi bigot.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tony Montana:
First, you ask for advice on detonating 453grams of ANFO or ANNM with a large amount of AP in a copper tube. Then I suggested that putting a large amount of AP in an uncoated copper tube, for more than a day was unadvisable. And that a booster (Picric Acid or Tetryl) should be used for reliable and full detonation. You then bashed my post and agreed with someone that told you that you can "Detonate ANFO or ANNM in a plastic bag, with 4 grams of pressed HMTD".If there is any truth to that, the results would be patchy at best. I never said AP would detonate under its own weight, or will it pressure detonate I said it dangerous in large amounts. After explaining that mixing ANFO or ANNM with AP, makes an explosive as sensitive as AP and as powerfull as ANFO or ANNM, you say its my body let me worry about it(I was just trying to help you out!). So im not worried about it, I hope your the next kewlio on the news, maimed by AP.(you, and your clever assosiates who make use pounds of AP at a time).

PS.You say make a large batch of 1:1 AP/ANNM.
I say get fucked, i will leave that to fools like you!</font>

[Fingerless]

What composition fertilizer are you using? 34-0-0? 35-0-0? Something else?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by HNIW:
I'm using normal fertilizer that can be easilly bought. In Poland it's about 2$ per 10kg. I'm milling it using coffee mill. In the USA there might be some problems with AN because of recent terrorist bombings but in most countries there won't be any problems to get this fertilizer.</font>

[Tony Montana]

I cant help it!
Fingerless, first of all. I would like to say that I do not doubt for a second that your ANFO or ANNM detonates using your method, I also dont doubt that all of the ANFO or ANNM detonates, I also dont doubt that it creates an awe inspiring explosion. That being said, heres the theory behind my post: You stated you were making a booster out of a large amount of Acetone Peroxide.
Acetone Peroxide has a Velocity Of Detonation(VOD) 5200meters per second. Detonating 1 gram of acetone peroxide produces an explosion that travels at 5200m/s ; Even if you detonate 1 tonne of acetone peroxide the VOD stays at 5200m/s, there is more gasses produced and the shock wave would be bigger, but it will still travel at 5200m/s! Thus putting AP into the category of primary explosive (very sensitive to initiation, with low power output). Picric acid has a VOD of 7250 meters per second, so it falls into the class of Booster (medium sensitivity, medium to high power output).
Now reading any good and complete explosives book reveals that detonation has a direct effect upon the explosives overall performance, very basically this means the faster you reach detonation, the better the result. There are points where the explosive reaches a point where it is at optimal performance and wont get any better. Most explosives manuals state that when detonating an explosive, if anything use more than is necessary(to ensure optimal performance). The reason comercial blasters would use a stick of 80%(80% nitroglycerin VOD 7500m/s) dynamite to boost their ANFO! As you would know ANFO is a slow pushing explosive, basically ANFO if put under a rock will more likly throw the rock in one piece a large distance, where RDX would shatter the rock into pieces. When detonating explosives you have to break the bonds that hold them together, forcing them to instantly seperate into gasses and so forth. So an explosive with more shattering power is going to be desired, to shatter the strong crystaline structure of AM (adding nitro or fuel oil, gives it the carbon required for an explosion without changing the structure). Hence, all of your material maybe exploding because of the confinement, but are you reaching full detonation???? I am trying to tell you a method that is much safer, much more reliable and you will harness your explosives full capabilities every shot!
PS.Just for the record:
Just because someone says they have been using pounds of something for years, does NOT make it safe (it shows that persons ignorance)
And, I did not hope somebody would get maimed by AP, I just hoped you would! Cause thats probly the only way you will believe how unstable it is!

AND DONT FUCKING QUOTE THIS( thats a real annoying habit you got)

[Fingerless]

Yes that incessant quoting is annoying! When the post you're referring to is right above yours it is not neccessary. It is also pointless if you quote the whole post!


How much time did you waste doing that? Trying to tell me that AP is unsafe (duh) and other explosives have a higher VOD (really? I thought AP was the standard, man-thats kewl) and that the higher the VOD of an explosive, the better a detonater it makes (NO shit!) Thanks for enlightening me on this rudimentary knowledge that practically every one on this sight already knows, I am enlightened in your presence. If I wanted to use a primary explosive charge, I would have said it. The question was about AP and anmnn boosters. I wanted to know about using explosives made from more readily available chemicals as detonators......Oh, and the quote button is there for a reason.......Nobel must be ignorant too (Nobel lost at least one son to nitro accidents)? Messing with NG and all.....But he came up with a great thing in dynamite....Messing with dangerous things doesn't make you ignorant, just inquiring, or curious, or like to mess with stuff. The risk isn't yours so dont worry about it.


[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited August 30, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

I think you two need to chill out.

[Anthony]

Fingerless, I think should reread your first post in this thread. You asked people for ideas (after stating that your idea would work) and when people have offered suggestions and alternatives you've told them to fuck off.

You did not ask: "about AP and anmnn (ammonium nitrate and mono-nitro-napthalene?)boosters" nor "more readily available chemicals as detonators" in your post. (what's more readily available than AP anyway?)

I think you should clearly state exactly what it is you are asking.

[Fingerless]

Yeah, I'll chill. I didn't tell anyone to fuck off, just Tony got on my nerves especially with taht comment about how he wishes I get maimed by AP because I disagree with him. I think I have some sites he might be welcome on. I think all of Nobels immediate family was killed by NG plants exploding, but he made an important contribution nontheless. When I said readily available, I was talking about AP and HMTD being easily made and available, and things like picric acid, lead styphate etc. not being.

[Detonator]

Tony whats the percent of An to Nn?
Any data about it?

[Detonator]

I meant to ask about ammonium nitrate and mono-nitro-napthalene...what is the ratios,VoD..etc?

[Tony Montana]

Detonator,
The closest thing I could find was,
The "Schneiderite"(Explosif S or Sc) which the French used during the first World War in small and medium sized high explosive shells, especially in the 75mm. It was made by incorporating 7 parts of ammonium nitrate and 1 of dinitronapthalene in a wheel mill, and was loaded by compression. Another similar mixture used in place of Schneiderite was N2TN and was made of 50% ammonium nitrate 30% sodium nitrate and 20% trinitronapthalene. No VOD's sorry.

[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited September 02, 2001).]

[Detonator]

mononitronaphthalene
dinitronaphthalene

Any uses as an explosives or mixed with HE?
Do you think adding mononitronaphtalene to AN will increase sensitivity and add more output cal, maybe VOD?

[Mr Cool]

I tried an AN/MNN/Al mixture and put the results up, I think it was in the "Tovex" thread. NaClO3/MNN is also a good mixture.

[Fingerless]

Can someone explain to me what happened? All my posts on this thread changed to say I have "1 post" and my counter re-started....I'm not sure of how many posts I had, 50 or so maybe, I was a regular I know, now I'm back at the start point! Is this some cruel joke from the mods or what?

[its no joke - ALENGOSVIG1]

[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited September 03, 2001).]

[Detonator]

Mr Cool i read your post it has good information but did you stop the experiments?

did you try %75 AN %20 MNN %5 Al?
Do you think it's stronger than ANFO, more cap sensitive?

[Mr Cool]

No, I haven't done many more experiments with these kinds of mixtures, I kinda got to 80% NaClO3, 15% MNN and 5% Al and then stopped because this seems to work pretty well.
I'd guess that mixture would be more cap sensitive and more powerful than ANFO, but until I get my little blast chamber (45 gallon oil drum, buried in the ground, lined with carpet with sand in the bottom with a big heavy lid) made it's hard for me to do any "scientific" experiments to find out... but if/when it's made I should be able to set off smallish charges without making too much noise, so I'll be able to do little lead block tests etc. Any ideas where I could find a 45 gallon drum that isn't being used?

[ALENGOSVIG1]

Around here you can steal garbage cans from the smoke pit in schools. there usually 45 gal drums painted blue. you can also get one from a construction site. they usually throw garbage in there. i found it quite hard to find my oil drum. but once i found it i'd see them everywere. thats the way things work i suppose.

[Fingerless]

I have probablly 200 empty oil drums at my shop http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif From 45-55 gallons in size, some plastic, some steel, and some aluminum. All they do is sit there! Maybe I'll detonate a full 55 gallons of ANFO soon if I get a hold of a bunch of cheap fertilizer.