Composition C

[Arthis]

hi ! Well, I recently was reading once again NBK2K's pdf file and I was reading about C composition. It is first written that you needed 0.6% lecithin and 11.1% oil, rest is RDX. But just next paragraph oil isn't mentionned in the mix, but it is said to add the 11.1% of lecithin. So, what is the exact composition: where is the error ?

Secondly, it is written in composition C-2 that it was made because of the problems caused by C. And C-3 was made because of C-2 toxicity. What are these problems of C ? It isn't mentionned but only said that it is a good plastic explosive, just less powerful than C-4.

And not to send another topic, what is the last chemical to use to make C-4, the ...-sebecate ?

[Mr Cool]

ethyl hexyl sebecate, IIRC.

[-A-]

The problem with C composition is just with temperature. You can use it between 0-40 degrees celsius aprox. Above that, it "sweats" a little. Under that it looses some of it's plasticity. Other than that is an excelent composition because it is very easy to make. And the plasting agents are 0,6% lecitin and 11.1% mineral oil.

[Cricket]

KIPE 1 or/and 2 have some good plastic explosives information. And they also discuss C1-C4. Good stuff.

[Dhzugasvili]

Excuse my ignorance...but does it matter what type of mineral oil you use? I am not very familiar with the term, "mineral oil" perhaps cause English is not my first language.

[Cricket]

Don't feel stupid, I don't know either(and I'm American). I just had it in my head that it was baby oil (a clear, really slippery liquid I would like to accidentally spill on the skating rink), so I guess that it is. Don't put any faith in it though.

[Foodos]

I remmember seeing actual "Mineral Oil" some years ago (when shopping for veggetable oil) at smiths, so its probably around locally, if I remmember later ill look for it.

[Dhzugasvili]

It is probably because I am relatively new to this site that I don't know what KIPE is but it sounds interesting, I am supposing it is a site...Cricket, what is their address?

[DarkAngel]

Hey
It's a file calld "Kitchen Improvised Plastic Explosives" you download it from my site

------------------
DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[mongo blongo]

Im sorry for bringing up an old post but there is still no definite meaning of 'mineral oil'. It has been said that it's baby oil, motor oil, vegtable oil etc (im confused). I have been trying to find out for some time now. I have looked everywhere i can think of! The only thing i can guess is that it comes from the ground (mineral)? Are there many types of mineral oil? Is it something like Kerosene?

[cutefix]

Mineral Oil is definitely obtained from mineral sources,or in simple language obtained as petroleum byproduct.It is also called paraffin oil.,liquid petrolatum.It is stated by this site:
http://www.askjanice.com/tutorials/mineraloil.html
Mineral oil is a mixture or refined liquid hydrocarbons derived from petroleum. It is colorless, transparent, odorless and tasteless. When heated, mineral oil smells like petroleum.

You can learn about these stuff from these sites:
http://www.totalskincare.com/library/totalskincare_m_mineral-oil.html
http://yarchive.net/chem/mineral_oil.html
http://www.pestell.com/Products/MineralOilP.htm
About its health implications
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v48aje08.htm
Different Grades:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v48aje08.htm
MSDS
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/m7700.htm
http://www.pestell.com/MSDS_sheets/msds_mineral_oil.htm
http://www.fjcinc.com/msds10mineraloil.htm
Suppliers
http://www.avatarcorp.com/oil.html
Regarding that C formulation, an acquaintance of mine tried it with PETN instead of RDX but he was not able to obtain a cohesive plastic material,rather like some kind of thick gravy.He replaced part of the oil with wax and he was able to make satisfactory plastic material,but still soft not like the consistency of normal kneaded plastique like C-4.I think by replacing that fluid mineral oil with petrolatum wax ,will be more realistic.
Lecithin should be at the lower level like 0.5-1.0%.This material will promote better uniformity.Common Lecithin is a thick material that looks like molasses should be heated in the mineral oil/wax blend before it is added to the crystalline explosive followed by intensive mixing.
Try to select mineral oil with higher viscocity if possible.

[Mr Cool]

Maybe you could use half mineral oil and half vaseline?
At the moment I'm messing around trying to find a plasticiser with boiled linseed oil and other oils/waxes. The fact that the linseed polymerises helps it to all stick togther rather than crumble, and it doesn't exude as much oil when put on paper etc. I'll post proportons when I've got a good mixture.

[10fingers]

Mineral oil probably comes in different viscositys. The type you see in drug stores seems to be a little thin. As others above have suggested you could mix it with either vaseline or paraffin wax to thicken it.
Lecithin is a commonly used food emulsifier, I have seen it in health food stores.

[mongo blongo]

Thanx for the links cutefix!
What about using less mineral oil? or get as much RDX into it as possible? You would end up with a thicker (more moldable) material and a higher density which means a higher Det velocity. What do you think?

[Mr Cool]

Too much RDX = crumbly product = useless as a plastique.

[mongo blongo]

Yea i meant as much RDX you can get into the plastique without it being crumbly.Not like some kind of 'thick gravy' as Cutefix said.

[cutefix]

In order to obtain a desirable plasticity,but with the highest amount of explosive material that can be added. The oil/fat consistency should be viscous,therefore a blend of mineral oil and Vaseline is another option.Just be sure to disperse the emulsifier properly in it before adding in the crystalline explosive.It is also preferable to use finest granulation that you can obtain from your base explosive.In the large scale manufacture of this simple plastique,they used a polymerized fat(Mr.Cool linseed oil is another suitable option).It is mixed with coarser particle explosive crystals and then passed through a sort of a”refiner” or a machine having series of two opposite rollers rotating at slightly different speed that will enable the efficient mixing of the components, as well as safely reducing the particle size of the explosive improving uniformity of the finished material(This looks similar to chocolate refining process).The resulting product is a homogenous paste,that will thicken more on standing and cooling .The ratio given that states ,88% explosive content is the maximum quantity that can be made from this process.For homemade procedure with less efficient materials and processing method it can go as low as 75%explosive.Therefore you must establish particular ratios as dictated by your ingredient and processing conditions in order to attain the desired plasticity.By the way the explosive used in that commercial method was RDX, which is less sensitive than PETN,with the latter you should exercise more care in manipulating the plasticizing process...

[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited August 19, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

My PETN always precipitates out of the reaction as particles as fine as dust, so no reduction in size is necessary http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[shooter3]

Can you guys reference the use of linseed oil. I've used it for years in the boat building industry and know it to be a drying oil. Using boiled linseed oil will cause your "C" to become hard as a brick after a few days. Raw takes a little longer, but it to will harden up. It is also a fire hazard from spontaneous combustion, especially under warm conditions. Chewed bubble gum, motor oil, and lecithin dissolved in gasoline works fine. Sometimes it can be dangerous to try to reinvent the wheel. Good luck.

[Mr Cool]

It never gets hard, I think the vaseline prevents that.
Spontaneous combustion might be a problem if you have 20 kilograms of it, but since the concentration of linseed oil is low, and the amount of explosive I have is small, the tiny amount of heat produced from the polymerisation is unlikely to speed up the reaction enough for it to ignite.

[mongo blongo]

Shooter, what quantities of chewed bubble gum, motor oil, and lecithin do you use?
Is that the bubble gum that contains polyisobutylene or is it just normal bubble gum ?
How may this be dangerous?

[shooter3]

I haven't made it for quite a while(no need), so i can't give the exact ratio, but I'm pretty sure it's in the KIPE#1 as 2.1% PIB(Bazooka bubble gum), 1.6% 30wt motor oil, 5.3%"Mr. Bubble" soap powder et.al.. I like to add a little more oil. I always felt a little uneasy squeezing C-4. It's a little like slightly hardened play dough. I don't like squeezing hard on something that might blow me to pieces.(you make your own joke). By the way dissolve all the stuff in plenty of white gas, so you don't have to kneed the ingrediants into dry RDX.

[This message has been edited by shooter3 (edited August 20, 2001).]

[cutefix]

I think there is no need to worry about blowing yourself while making plastic explosives,during the kneading process. Just think that you are handling bread dough .But, you have to wear gloves specially if you are using RDX which is more toxic than PETN.The NIOSH claims that cyclonite causes epilipteform seizures if absorbed in the human body.I had slapped the Plastique dough on the table,many time without getting any explosion.,this proves its inertness in this form.I am just wondering about the bubble gum and soap plastique,if did itwork well.How about its detonation properties....

[shooter3]

The ingreedients are the same as C-4, just not as pure. It acts the same. Very easy to set off with M Fulminate.

[cutefix]

If you are able to set it off with just mercury fulminate,I anticipate your RDX was so impure that it contain traces of HMX isomers(delta and gamma) which are as sensitive as lead azide…or other homologous lower nitrated nitramines(which are sensitive as well)that are,not removed by washing.Or did you use PETN which is more sensitive and put a higher quantity of the fulminate in the improvised cap?..However if its not intimately blended with the other ingredients,there might be undetonated portions of it being scattered still attached to the binder,dimishing the explosive efficiency.The other possibility of the ease in setting it off is the porous structure of loosely kneaded plastique,Real C-4 requires stronger cap(containing enough base charge)...Did it give a good explosion,typical with these material?

[shooter3]

I made 2 fire crackers. The first was a lump about the size of 2 inches of pencil, a pea sized quantity of tetryl, and approx. 2 grams of M.F. I put 4 sandbags over it and set it off with a straw full of gun powder. It blew the sandbags up about 20 feet, and made a BIG bang. The second was a similar size, but only used M.F. This I buried about 2 feet deep. That made a very nice thump.

[This message has been edited by shooter3 (edited August 24, 2001).]

[shooter3]

When I was in Nam I used to see some guys use C-4 to heat their C-rats. I works just fine, but it does get get very sensitive. I think my crackers worked in the normal way, but if they didn't my first guess would be that because the M.F. was in direct contact with the C, the heat of det may have helped.

[cutefix]

I was thinking about these events;Then I remember that the RDX mostly used in old C-4 usually contains impurities of HMX..Knowing that these residues can alter the sensitivity of detonation in the base RDX .It is likely that polymorphic change of these isomers resulted in the formation of the unstable delta/gamma isomers especially if stored in harsh storage conditions that occur during combat,increased the sensitivity of these materials..

[Mr Cool]

So you're saying that there are isomers of HMX with PRIMARY sensitivity?! These sound very useful, surely they must have some serious drawbacks or they'd be used in detonators etc?

[cutefix]

They may have impact sensitivity comparable to primaries but do not possess flame sensitivity which is another criteria for initiating explosives.Another thing is these impact sensitive isomers is likely to transform in to the less sensitive alpha and beta polymorph…on storage, adding another defect on reliability.

[shooter3]

Are you sure that HMX can get sensitive? I thought pure HMX was LESS sensitive that RDX. And if old C-4 got more sensitive with storage I would have heard about it. The militery wouldn't use something so reactive.

[mongo blongo]

That's what i thought! But if so, are these impurities removed in recrystallization
from acetone?

[kingspaz]

i don't think thats possible as HMX is also soluble in acetone (i think).

[bonnsgeo]

hum ... i did a search on internet and i didnt found any good informations so , i would like to have a good description of pure polyisobutylene : color?, is it a solid ?, a liquid ?... i d like a good description please.

and if u know a vendor of pure pib in europe (in france for example <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )... could u give me the adress ?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

thx

[PrimoPyro]

Mineral oil is indeed a petrol product. It can be bought from health food chains or from a chemical supplier really cheap. It comes in three viscosities as far as I know, thin medium and thick. I would assume medium or thick to be best suited for this use.

If the lecithin is the emulsifyer (Ive seen this at Thrifties, people come on now) then the nonpolar is just a gum to coagulate with the emulsifyer right?

If so......try using nitromethane instead of mineral oil and see if you get better results. This is just a guess on my part.

PrimoPyro

[bonnsgeo]

ouch ! i found a vendor of pib in france ... but its 70 euros (70 dollars) for 100 grams !! it s really expensive !!!!!!!

does anybody have a cheaper source of pure pib ??

thx

[parabolic]

i use mineral oil at work as a cutting fluid for the center lathes and milling machines, aparently it contains small amounts of chlorine, sulphur and phosphorus additives, which might not be suitable for what we need. but i think you can buy it without additives.