Planular Cutting Charge

[nbk2000]

Most above-ground safes have the ability to be bolted down to a floor or wall to prevent them being carried off to be opened up elsewhere.

Well, sometimes, it happens that a person, while they did bolt it down, don't bolt it down tightly, leaving room for the safe to be tipped around a bit. This space isn't enough to get any kind of normal cutting tool into though. :(

Well, I thought that, since explosives can be made into thin sheets, and are capable of cutting metal, that there's got to be some way of using them to cut the bolts.

For instance, I know of a safe (empty though) that has a 1/4" gap under it when tipped. There's 4 bolts of 3/8" dia. securing it to a concrete slab floor.

Now, what I'm thinking is that a sheet of PETN explosive of <1/4" thickness could be slipped underneath the safe. There's a V shaped notch cut out of the sheet, into which goes a bolt. When fired, the explosive would shear the bolt via Munroe effect.

OR

You fill the space under the safe with explosive and fire it. The safe and floor have an equal and opposite reaction. The ground isn't going anywhere, therefore the safe has to move up. This either shears off the bolt heads, breaks the nuts, or shatters something (safe or floor). Either way, you're likely to be able to remove the safe for cracking open at your leisure elsewhere. :)

[Eliteforum]

Could the same be applied to a safe in a wall recess with say a 1/4 inch gap around it?

[NoltaiR]

Assuming that you have a way to bond PETN into a nice, even sheet; I think that you will have the safe removed without any problem at all. Of coarse if you have 1/4", I would think it easier just to fit a hacksaw (or any thin, metal cutting saw) under. But if explosives are the way to go, I think a confinement such as this for an explosive as brisant as PETN will make for a spetacular show... and of coarse 3/8" bolts are not going to stand a chance. But what I think you will find is that the outside edges of the safe's floor are more supported than the middle area because of the walls. So by adding enough PETN, you will probably not only have the bolts blown out, but you may (depending on the strenght of material used in the making of the safe) blow a hole right through the bottom of it (which would prevent it from being reused, and if there is anything inside you want, you may destroy it in the process.)

[nbk2000]

For lifting a safe off of its bolts, I'd think a low end HE like APAN would be good. Lots of gas production, not a lot of brisance, and easy to make.

You'd definately want to avoid blasting a big hole in the bottom, lest you destroy the very thing you're after. Though that would be RTPB compliant "Destroy that which you can't have". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I was thinking more like a flat charge that could be slipped underneath that would be placed in contact with the bolt. Like a C where the gap is in contact with the bolt, and the charge detonated from the opposite side. The shockwave travels through both ends of the charge, where it meets in the interior of the bolt, the shockwave collisions and reflections causing stress fracturing of the metal, shearing the bolt.

[metafractal]

Of course, wether a hole will be blasted out depends largeley on how the safe is constructed. In general (but not without exceptions) you wont blast a hole in a well made safe with a petn charge. How well made it is should depend on how valuable the goods inside are, although it is not a linear relationship in any sense, only if it is not extrodinarily expensive then they will buy a safe with the significantly lower value, and if it is they will usually figure it worth it to buy a top of the line super hard safe. The exception, and reasonably probable at that, would be that even a top of the line safe may have put all its features into ther parts (i.e. 'unbreakable' welds) and neglected this to the extent that it is no more advanced than the lower-end safe. Nothing much can be gathered from the fact that it was not secured down well, it is unlikeley that they would account for this even in the most valuable of goods. If nbk is going to all this trouble, then I would assume it is worthwhile i.e. of very significant value. But you tell me. It seems like the chances are that a hole will be blasted. But if it is worth this much effort, if it is in a private enough place, maybe the metal and structure could be analysed and then it could actually be calculated. But this is only if it is of very <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> significant value.

&gt;&gt;metafractal

[nbk2000]

I've read of where businesses would buy a top-o-da-line safe, and then just set it down in the corner without bolting it down, thinking it too heavy to be stolen.

'Course, I'd hear about how these same safes would later be carted off by burglars with pallet lifts and tow trucks. :D

Also, it seems most people are under the impression that 50¢ bolts are adequate. :rolleyes: Maybe against your average crackhead joe thief, but not against someone with "skillz". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Also, it's the rare safe that has equal 6 sided protection. In all but the most well designed safes, the floor is the "weakest link", since it's not likely to be attacked if PROPERLY bolted down.

Also, I was thinking that, if a crim knew what kind of safe it was (RTPB Prior Planning), he'd know where the bolt-down holes were located. He could then drill through the concrete around the safe, to create a void underneath the safe that would have a very small cratering charge placed in it. This would then disrupt all the dirt, shatter the concrete, and allow for the whole thing to be yanked out to be taken somewhere else for cracking at leisure.

Same thing could be accomplished silently using bentomite to shatter the concrete, but that takes hours. And the longer you're on the scene, the greater your chance of getting busted.

I've seen in the McMaster-Carr catalog hydralic jacks that'll fit under a 1/4" gap, cost less than a grand, and that have 100 ton lift with a 3" stroke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Most bolts are rated to only 10-20 tons. :)

Pssstt...pssstt...ppsssBLING-BLING! :D

<small>[ November 15, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[pyromaniac_guy]

if you are worried about damage to the contents of the safe, by not just attack it's foundation. I assume most buildings in question would use a concrete foundation... take a concrete drill and drill from an angle next to the bottom edge of the safe, to an area where you think the bolts are located... fill with your charge, tamp if possible, and let her rip.. you dont actually have to shear the bolts in this case, just fracture the concrete enough so that you can rip the safe off it's mount easily enough... this way the intervening concreat the safe is sitting on will sheild the bottom wall of the safe to afford it some protection

and as far as sheet explosives go, instead of using a sheet, use a narrow strip... with a shape charge attacking a bolt you are only going to get usefull work out of a width of charge the same diameter as your bolt, furthermore you dont need a very deep cone to the 'v' so any erxtra length is just a waste... by actually making properly sized shape charges on a stick (tm) you reduce your explosive use probably by orders of magnitude, and greatly lessen the chance of poping a hole in the bottom of the sucker...

[nbk2000]

NBK:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Also, I was thinking that, if a crim knew what kind of safe it was (RTPB Prior Planning), he'd know where the bolt-down holes were located. He could then drill through the concrete around the safe, to create a void underneath the safe that would have a very small cratering charge placed in it. This would then disrupt all the dirt, shatter the concrete, and allow for the whole thing to be yanked out to be taken somewhere else for cracking at leisure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">pyromaniac_guy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> take a concrete drill and drill from an angle next to the bottom edge of the safe, to an area where you think the bolts are located... fill with your charge, tamp if possible, and let her rip.. you dont actually have to shear the bolts in this case, just fracture the concrete enough so that you can rip the safe off it's mount easily enough...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Asides from a little rephrasing, you just repeated the very thing I just said. I don't like it when people try to pass off something I said as something original on their part. :mad:

Imitation isn't the sincerest form of flattery when it comes to ME. In fact, it reeks of sychophantry (AKA asskissing) and pisses me off to no end.

I'll let you remove the offending section yourself, because it's easier for me to just HED you instead if you don't.

<small>[ November 16, 2002, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Ruroni]

Let's keep the posts at least slightly relevant, shall we?

Watch the sycophancy too.

<small>[ December 03, 2002, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Well, a while ago, they removed the ATM from the store. Unfortunately I wasn't there to see it. :(

However, I now know that they use 3/8" bolts to hold them down, since they had to grind off the heads of the bolts to remove the ATM, as the bolts are epoxy set into the floor to prevent removal, so there's just stubs remaining flush with the floor.

This also tells me that, for this particular style of ATM machine, that the bolts are set 14.5" apart L/R, and 18" F/B. So, for that model anyways, I know where the bolts are located. :)

The simplist attack means would seem to be to use a hammer drill to cut a recess under the edge of the ATM, then insert a toed hydralic jack with a lift capactity greater then the shear strength of the 4 bolts combined.

The jack would then apply sufficient lift to snap off the bolt heads when they reached their fracture point.

Much quieter than explosives, and possibly faster since you don't have to drill holes for cratering charges under all the bolts.

'Course, if the bolts aren't tightened down sufficiently to prevent tipping, then direct explosive attack on the bolts would quicker.

[Anthony]

There's quite a few numbers for bolt strengths, the highest I saw (worst case scenario) was 50kN or 5 metric tons.

I'm sure you'd need a lot less than 20T though, for several reasons. If you're lifting one side, the load is concentrated on the closest two bolts. It isn't a straight pull on the bolt head. Most importantly, epoxy and concrete should give way *long* before the bolt head.

The fact that people have ripped up ATMs with a mini digger kinda proves that. There's not way one of those things could pull 10's of tons with the bucket.

[nbk2000]

No such thing as overkill my dear fellow. :D

You never know when you'll run across an ATM (or some other object with valuables within) installed by somebody who just happened to have a few left over aerospace grade 1/2" titanium bolts with 100,000 pound yield strengths. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Best to be prepared and have it and not need it :) , than to need it and be caught up short by not having it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Anthony]

okey dokey, 4 x 100 000lb = 200T

Got a design in mind for this spreader? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[nbk2000]

Yes I do:

RDX + AP = Spread

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

[Agent Blak]

Also one thing you have to keep in mind are the laws of physics; ie Shock Load.

We are talking about using a Hyrdrolic Jack here. We are talking about a Planular Charge. You are using Something like a PETN/RDX/AN(filler) as you explosive. These are going to Shock load theose Bolts like you wouldn't imagine. lets say that the 1/2" AirCraft Grade Ti Bolt where used.

Now you are said 200T. If those bolts go from no preasure to 150T + the Generated Heat in an instant. Now thats a lot of force/energy.

And if that Fails you will always have a plan B
<a href="http://www.saflow.com/burning_lance.htm" target="_blank">http://www.saflow.com/burning_lance.htm</a>

[spydamonkee]

concrete, steel or whatever is holding the bolts to the ground is gonna give way before the titanium bolts.

if i was going to do something like this and explosives did not seem viable i would go for steeling a scrap metal truck that has a lifting arm on the deck, then i would ram the ATM outa and pick it up with the arm putting it on the back of the truck, then after leaving a drumfull of ANNM @ the scene i would make my escape.

but seriously if i was ever going to do any hit i would make it worth it... IE: enuff dough to retire on some island.

[Gargoylebrother]

Hmmmm well for me if there was a 1/4 in gap or easy access to the bolts holding it down I would just use some Liquid Nitrogen and freeze the bolts and then hit them with a concreat chisel it would be fast and quiet also depending on the strength of the safe you could just freeze the hindges and then shatter them. Also if you cant get any Liquid Nitrogen then you could always take a cutting torch to the bolts also fast enough and you can get a mapp gas torch that will do the job at Homedepot for $50 US.

[deadsea]

And if that Fails you will always have a plan B
<a href="http://www.saflow.com/burning_lance.htm" target="_blank">http://www.saflow.com/burning_lance.htm</a>

Don't those burning lace things require a oxygen supply to work? Rather conspicious to be lugging an oxygen tank around. ;)