Busting into my safe.

[DBSP]

At home I have a safe that has been standing there for more than 20 years, my father used to keep dokuments there when he had a small foto company. The thing is that there is no key to the safe since my mother has hidden it to well and now she can't find it. The safe hasn't been opened for about 15 years.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/safe.JPG" target="_blank">This is the safe.</a>

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/safe_bolt_flash.JPG" target="_blank">This</a> is how the locking bolt lookes like, it's 20 mm thick and there are two of them one locking into the top of the safe and the other into the bottom.

The safe will be opened using explosives therefore this topic, I will need some help figuring out where to place the charges and such.
I will be using shaped charges propelled by ANNM, the charges will be of the wine bottle type. There is a couple of reasons to why I'll be using wine bottles. One is that it's the only thing I have on hand, I could make a metal one but then the other reason prohibits that. There are some papers in the safe and they can not be destroyed. If I used a metal shape there would be some very hot metal that might accidentally ignite the paper thus destroying it.

I've made One shaped charge before that was a wine bottle type with 220g of ANNM, after the detonation there was only pulverised glass left and I think that that would be the best choise considering the papers inside the safe.

If you would tip the safe to the right the papers would end up att the bottom(right wall) thus they would be well over 400mm from the charge, I think that they shuld survive. The charges would have to be aimed very precisely to hit the bolt in the centerand ripping it off. The space between the wall and the door would allso be covered with flat irons and hotglued into place only leaving a small hole at the bolt to keep hot gases out.

The walls of the safe are about 40mm thick and the safe could be used as a box to press caps in after it's busted.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/safe_door_right.JPG" target="_blank">door, sideview.</a>

Anyway what do you think of this project.

[A-BOMB]

DBSP what type of lock does it have on it? And is it a fireproof safe or are the wall 40mm of steel? If its a fireproof safe, I guess that you could you a use a copper or nickel lined shaped sharge, instead of a glass one.

[xoo1246]

Very interesting project, indeed. Is there only one bolt or one at the bottom too(can't see due to that paper).
Maybe a LSC could be used too, easier to aim in this case.

[DBSP]

As I said there is one at the top and one at the bottom. As far as I can tell there is nothing at the left side of the safe.

I don't know if it's fireproof but a qualified quess is that it isn't. An LSC would be nice but I don't want to take the risk.

I don't know if an LSC would be powerful enaugh to cut the bolt. It's 20 mm thick and probably hardened. Maby you could cut it layer by layer with an LSC but then there is the same problem with the risk of destroying the papers.

BTW does anyone have any figures of what the best angle is for an LSC?

[xoo1246]

Oups, someone didn't look hard enough.
Here are two patents covering LSC:s
4,430,939 - using 90 degrees.
3,855,929 - using 85 degrees.
Have seen both larger and smaller angles too.
But you are right, LSC:s are probably not suitable for the job, according to Explosives, Propellants & Pyrotechnics, a typical LSC can cut 1 cm of steel and 2 cm of aluminium alloy.
Better for concreat or thin metal plate.

<small>[ June 21, 2002, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[DBSP]

Could someone tell me how you find a patent when you have the patent number. I don't understand the new USPTO website, since thay changed it I haven't found anything I've been looking for.

[xoo1246]

My pleasure, click here:
<a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm" target="_blank">http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm</a>
Enter the patent number and there you go.
Has it changed?, it looks the same as usual to me. Here is the main page: <a href="http://www.uspto.gov/patft/" target="_blank">http://www.uspto.gov/patft/</a>

<small>[ June 21, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[pyromaniac_guy]

although this suggestion isnt nearly as fun as useing explosives, but did you consider or try drilling out the lock? it looks to me as though this is simply a firesafe, not necisarily one intended to protect aginast forced entry... if it's only a keylock shouldnt it be easy to get into???

[DBSP]

Drilling out the lock won't do shit since there is still the 2 locking bolts holding it closed. My guess is that the easiest way of getting into it is using a shaped charge.

[Madog555]

cant you have a locksmith open it?

[DBSP]

That wouldn't be as fun now would it? And I wan't the safe afterwords to build a press inside it, that way you would be quite well protected while pressing caps.

[mongo blongo]

I have another method using explosives that is usually used to open a safe.
It involves using a PBX placed at the edge of the locking bolts and hinges. When detonated simultaneously, the door is quickly rammed into the safe and hits the rim of the access hole. The door is then bounced back. The sudden shock of the door being rammed in and bouncing back will break the hinges and locking bolts and the door will fall out without any of the contents being damaged.

[McGuyver]

I admit it would be way more fun to blow the safe open, but picking the lock would not be near as much trouble. By the age of the safe and the look of the lock it looks as though it would be quite easy to pick. Don't have picks or a pick gun?- <a href="http://www.lockmasters.com" target="_blank">www.lockmasters.com</a> or <a href="http://www.southord.com." target="_blank">www.southord.com.</a> You might also consider cutting the lock bars with a metal cutoff saw. No damage to the documents either way. :)

[DBSP]

Picking the lock would be very hard since it says "picking proof" on the safe and the bolts will most likely to be hardened just because you aren't supposed to be able to cut the bolts with a saw.

Anyway I won't be able to blow the safe for a weak or so so I have some time to plan the thing.

[McGuyver]

Of course it says pick proof! :rolleyes: It might have been pick proof back in the 80's to the amateur, but it certainly isn't today. Have you ever seen a metal cutoff saw? Take a look at lockmasters catalog- they have one rigged up just for cutting "hardened bolts". Lockmasters is also heavy duty, but for your case a simple circular saw size blade is probably fine. Their blade is just a regular abrasive metal cutoff blade-nothing fancy.

[PYRO500]

Good luck picking a "pick-proof" lock as an ametuer, the things that companys do to make locks pick resistant are adding mushroom or conical shaped pins, fake pins, spacing the pins out, and a whole slew of things that generaly give you a headache. often these locks are hard to bind with a torque wrench and are somehow rake resistant too. Not to say you can't pick the lock it's just that it is probobly gonna be more diffficult than your standard deadbolt door lock. an abrasive cutoff disk on a rotary tool might work. Something I would try to do is take a metal wedge and try to crack the hinges by hammering the wedge betwen the safe body and the door.

[NoltaiR]

I would say your best bet would be to try drilling the locking bolts. This is the classic method but you may have to do a little research on the type of your safe to see exactly where the locking bolts are. (Unless, of coarse, you have a free day to spend just randomly drilling). But if you can find one bolt, then the other is usually the same distance from the center of the lock as the one you found.

I guess if all else fails and you want to have a little fun you could pull a move such as that on the movie 'The Score' and drill a hole through the top, fill with water, and detonate a charge about midways through the filled safe. Now movies tend to overexaggerate things, but I know from personal testing of detonations within water-filled confinements that you can definetly tear some shit apart, and you will always get more bang for your buck than one would probably expect for a scenario such as that.

edit: well I didn't read your first post until I was done replying and it seems that you can already see where the locking bolts are at.. so I just say drill those.

<small>[ June 23, 2002, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Drill a hole through the back of the safe (or floor) where the metal is thinner. Then fill it with sand. This will protect your papers. Otherwise, they WILL be destroyed by molten glass and incandescent gases from the SC bouncing around inside the safe.

Does the safe have relockers? If so, shocking the safe with an explosion will activate them and lock it up even tighter.

Try an oxy-acetylene torch instead. Not sexy, but safer. Or an abrasive cut-off wheel to cut slots in the metal to pry it open like a giant can.

[Magas]

Why wreck a usful item. Safes are usually designed to stop you getting in from the front. Because they are usually put next to a wall they usually make the back of resonable thinner material about 6-8mm steel if you get a large angle grinder with a metal cutting blade it goes through the rear very easily. cut a large square hole. Next is usually the fire retard material something like kitty litter. Then the inner wall again use the angle grinder. When you have taken the back off you can unbolt the inside of the door and manually unlock it. Then its just a matter of getting a key cut & rewelding the rear up again. You can buy very cheap safes at auctions when they dont have the key or combination and then just get into them. My large rifle safes are ex bank and thats hiw i opened them after they lost the combo's at the auction

[Mick]

just get a angle grinder(aka cut off wheel) and cut a slot down either side of the locking bolts, then cut a slot at the top of bolt so you end up with something like this...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> _____________________________
| ______ |
| | | |
| | | top door |
| | cut | &quot;frame&quot; | 2 = locking bolt
| | here | |
|__|______|___________________|
___|_2__|____________________
| |
| door |
| |
|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">once you have cut the material infront of the locking bolt, stick a pinch bar(or whatever happens to fit) inbetween the door, and the little square you just cut and snap the fucker out.
do the same to the bottom, then open it.

from the looks of the pictures, the safe is cast iron, in which case its going to be as hard as the hobs of hell to do anything to it - that includes blasting it.
if you were to blast it the only advice i can offer, is place you explosive in the center of the door, and then place a really large bag of water on top of the charge, then detonate. the water helps to "direct" the force in the opposite direction.

don't bother with LSC's, a home made LSC isn't going to do shit to a cast iron safe.

oh, another idea i had, if you know someone with a hydrolic press(like 40+ ton) just get them to press the door(its cast, it won't bend or deform, it'l just crack)
much faster, no cutting, no explosives, no mess.

[DBSP]

Mick I like the Idea of cutting the bolts free. That might work very well. I might chose this method, since it it the only simple and effective idea so far.

If I where to use a SC I would direct it so that the jet hits the top of the bolt from below so that you don't get any jet directed so that it can reach into the safe.

I doubt the safe is made out of cast iron, that would be far to easy to penetrate.

[drstrangelove]

This looks like fun!
I have done this before-nice and simple.
Because the safe is so small your going to have no troble.
I once had a small safe like that. I broke in the threw the door got the money out, but I have always wanted to blow a safe up just to see what happened.
I took the safe out bush and rested it on its back because of all the scrub and bushes it was not laying flat I put 250 grams of annm on the ground and gently put the back of the safe against the charge(not squashing the charge.
Boom the metal skin stayed in one piece maybe two, all the concrete showered down all over the place.
Lots of fun.
There was nothing in this safe and the door was already breached.

[Mick]

on the contrary, if it is cast it won't be easy to penetrate.
the majority of "home and shop" safes are made from cast, because its hard as all fuck, and its really hard to cut(chews thru cut off wheels like there paper)

maybe this is a dumb idea, but have you tried a screw driver in the lock? it would take alot of force to turn it, but you might get lucky and shear the pins off. another way to grind the shape of a key out of a high tensile bolt, then turn that with a long spanner. or, if you have access to a compressor and an impact wrench, just use that.(the "hammer" action of a impact wrench bounce back and forth again the pins, eventually shearing them off)

try the dumb, easy ideas first, and work you way up from there...you might get lucky.

[DBSP]

If it's cast iron the metal is much more brittle than steel that has been worked with. When I attacked a piece of 10mm cast iron with a 220g ANNM wine bottle shaped charge, the metal was penetrated with ease and the iron just seemed to crumble.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/200g_ANNM-SP2.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/200g_ANNM-SP2.jpg</a>

Have a look at the pic and zoom in on where the metal is penetrated and you'll see what I mean.

[stanfield]

You must attack the hinges, it seems you have 4 hinges, work on a parallel circuit wired to an auto battery, your blasting caps must be reliable, they must detonate simultaneously !
This is the way I will follow if one day, I got the same problem... But, I have plastic explosive with polyisobutylene,... so I could inject it between the surfaces, ANNM can't do that !

see ya !

[DBSP]

Before I anything I will have to check what kind of materials and what thickness I'll be up against. The I'll do whats needs to be done. Stanfield I'd like to be able to use the safe afterwords which means that I'll only cut the bolts thus making the safe usable, not as a safe but as a container for a cap pressing mecanism.

[Flake2m]

LIQUID NITROGEN.

I know of someone that had their bike stolen with the aid of liquid nitrogen. The thief poured some liquid nitrogen on the bike lock and then hit the lock with a hammer, the lock shattered and the thief rode off with the bike.

You could use Liquid nitrogen to freeze the door and then smash it with a sledge hammer the force will shatter the metal. Concentrate on the places like the locking bolts. The only problem would be getting hold of liquid N2. If you are studying at university then you might be able to get some from them.

[mongo blongo]

I think they use N2 at frozen foods factories to quickly freeze foods ready for transport. They would have a place outside the factory where they keep the tanks of it. It's outside the factory by law because of the obvious hazards of N2. This same law is why chemical stock rooms are outside college and universities. The stock room outside my last college had no alarms or any security except for a locked door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[endotherm]

Liquid N2 is some nasty stuff, i have the pleasure of my uncle being a dermatologist, and when i go down to visit, i get to play around at the office. They have several large tanks of liquid N2 for surgery where they use it to freeze-burn off warts and other skin crap. I have some preety nasty looking burns on my hands from playing with it when I was a kid, but it honestly doesn't hurt to get burnt with it that much. It is funny because after the initial burn, it behaves very similiar to a burn from heat. Skin is raised, blisters, etc.
Another peculiar behavior of this stuff is that it won't burn an area of skin, if there is no hair on it, because if there is no hair it will evaporate before any tissue is damaged. And when you pour an amout on a solid surface, a cloud of vapor spreads across the floor and little beads of the still liquid nitrogen race across it like cars on a highway, wow that was all very offtopic, but this stuff is really amazing...but back to topic:
I've found that Liquid N2 doesn't really freeze materaials that contain no water. It is true that you can dip a mouse in it, pull it out, and shatter it like glass, but this doesn't work for metals, or other things I tested like rubber bands, and plastic pens. Sure it will make the metal more brittle, but if it's hardened steel it is still going to require quite the bashing before it shatters. Perhaps a combination of freezing it, and then hitting it with a shaped charge, that is guranteed to do the trick. But you have a short time frame before the temperature of the metal dramatically raises back up.

[mongo blongo]

What about freezing the metal and then pouring boiling hot water on it?

[Zambosan]

The safe would almost certainly survive that temperature shock; however, cooling to cryogenic temperatures brings the metal atoms into closer alignment, giving you crystalline structures that are easier to cleave & shatter. However, steel introduces carbon impurities into the iron for just this purpose; interrupting the crystalline lattice with irregularities "toughens" it greatly. As an aside, slow or quick temperature changes from hot to cool (cooling vs. quenching, or drawing the temper in hot oil) are the techniques used to optimize the hardness and toughness of a piece of steel, particularly in knifemaking. Cooling slowly from red hot will give you a very tough metal, but it will be more malleable and won't hold an edge well. Quenching in cold water will give you a very hard, but brittle blade.

[xoo1246]

Why boher with cooling the bolts, I bet a improvised SC can handle it.

[Mick]

i don't know why BDSP, but that picture you uploaded of the cast pipe you hit with a SC doesn't look right..

not only doesn't the material in the picture look like a pipe, it doesn't look like cast.

the material in the picture has a gray/white color like conrete, but its deformed like metal.

looks odd, either way.

anyways, enough talking about this fucking safe.
lets hit it with a SC and see what happens.
if it works, good shit.
if it don't, still good shit, cause then we get to try other things =D

on the subject of LN2,
my approch using that would be to make a ring about 30mm thick out of some Blu-tack or silicone on top of the safe, then pour the LN2 into the ring so its contained and concentrated.

then after a minute(or just when the LN2 evapourates) i'd belt the frozen section as hard as i could with something like a Pick or a block splitter (or something with a sharp point)

eh just a thought

[Mick]

acctually, i just realised what that image is of.

it looks like an I beam, or a piece of railroad track.

in either case, its not cast iron - it's normal everyday steel.

[pyromaniac_guy]

Mick,
The liquid nitrogen method is not at all likely to work... I used to work for a company that had nitrogen delivered by the semi load... They went through so much that we were able to skim off 20, 30 or even 100 liters here and there to play around with, without anyone noticing... where as just about anything that is flexable normally, ie flesh, rubber, water, etc will become fragile, to shatter-prone at LN2 tempertures, I have yet to find any rigid materials, ie metals, ect that behave similarly.... the brittleness of a material might be increased, but things dont happen like they do in Terminator 2... everything does not instantly become brittle when exposed to liquid nitrogen....

[DBSP]

Ok I took some new pics of the track. It is cast iron. Normal everyday stell won't snap like that, it bends before breaking off. If you have seen ragnars video of the SC yu can see that the steel has been bended where it has been penetrated, here it has been crumbled and a piece has been snapped off. The SC was placed 15cm aove the track and the chock wave snapped the thing off along the middle without bending it. And the white thing on the iron is is pulverised glass from tha SC. Enaugh of said about that.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/side_zoom.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/side_zoom.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/zoom_of_penetrated_area.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/zoom_of_penetrated_area.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/iron_penetrated.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/iron_penetrated.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/overlook.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/overlook.JPG</a>

[Flake2m]

Why not use use a "freeze and thaw" method. you pour liquid nitrogen all over the safe to freeze it. then you put an oxy set to the safe. the sudden changes in temperature will warp the metal. repeat.

If the liquid N2 wont make it bittle then how come you can make a decent lock shatter by hitting it with a hammer after freezing it with liquid N2?
I do agree that hardened steel will be difficult to be make brittle. I am thinking that layer of metal will flake away (mind the pun :D )if you hit it with a sledge after it is frozen because of the temperature differences in the metal.

[pyromaniac_guy]

Flake2m.....
First off this is a safe... It probably weighs in excess of 100 lbs...(if it is a fire safe it would probably weigh even more, but the thermal insulation material has much less of a heat capacity than steel) do you have any idea as to how much liquid nitrogen that would require to take it down to 77k??? Also keep in mind that room temp to LN2 temp is a dT of only 220 degrees c or so.... you might as well heat up the safe with a torch then quench it with water....

Finally... who said you can bust a good padlock by freezing it in LN2??? I MIGHT belive it if the padlock had a large cavity on the inside, it was filled with water, and then frozen... but otherwise i just dont see it within the realm of possibility... If you want to take a video of shattering a lock after a ln2 dunk, I'll eat crow pie, but till then the idea is just BS....

Since I mentioned the ice thing.... what about it.... fill the safe with water.... then freeze it (if you can find a deep freezer somewhere...) the door will have a massive plate of ice pushing out on it, and you may sheer the hinges off clean... This method costs only a few gallons of water to try, is guaranteed not to burn up any documents, and only takes however long you would spend haulling the thing into a freezer.... a much nicer method than a cut off wheel... IF it works! :)

[Mick]

pryo guy, yes i do know movies portray LN2 as some magical stuff that makes things shatter with the touch of a feather.

the LN2 will make the steel more brittle. thus more prone to cracking when shocked.

DBSP, i still maintain that is not cast iron.
the reason i say this is because cast iron has no flex in, its hard and brittle. if you were to make a railway line out of cast iron the moment the track tries to flex a little when a train goes over it, it will snap and crumble and thus the train de-rails and people die.
(if you find some old rail lines still in use near you, go sit next them as a train goes over them, and you will see that they do infact flex up and down)

now, i know you thinking "the moment a train goes over them, they will snap and crumble" - much like your piece of rail there has done.
well, an observation i have made with my father is steel that is placed under stress for a long period of time will often "crystalise".
i don't proclaim to how it works its just an observation i have made(it may not be caused by stress...it could be something else, i don't know - its the best explenation i could come up with).

a few year back, my father and i were stripping down old mower engines for spares. A couple of the motors were really old(about 40 odd years). when we removed the crankshafts(3/4 diameter) from them with a drift, the shafts just snapped...i tapped one of them on the end with the drift and "plop" the other end of the shaft just fell off.
when looking at the end section where it had snapped, the metal had changed to dark gray "crystal" type appearance(as seen in your picture "side zoom"). the shaft was so brittle, i could snap off sections of it with my thumb.
if i didn't know what i was looking at, i would have sworn that it was cast iron, it was so similar.

and to further support my reasoning, i used to work for the SRA (State Rail Authority) so i have seen my fair share of railway track and i have never ever ever seen a piece of cast iron railway track.
i have however seen heaps of rail that has the same "insides" as yours.
quite a few years ago(about 50 years ago or more) they replaced the original rail line from one end of the blue mountains to the other - however they did a real dodgy job and never removed the old rail in some sections(some sections stretched for 4kms) they just built the new line straight over the top of the old one.
some years later(1998) someone cottened on to the fact they had done this, and the SRA had to pull up all the rail remove the old stuff and put the new stuff back down.
Alot of the old stuff they pulled out was broken and crumbled much the same as they piece you have there.

fuck...don't belive i bothered typing this all out...i should just nod and agree with you and be done with it, cause who really gives a fuck at the end of the day.

ignore the spelling mistakes, couldn't be assed spell checking it.

[Zambosan]

Mick, I think you are describing what prolonged thermal and mechanical stresses can do to low-grade steel. Hot spots, coupled with the torsional stresses that something like a crankshaft will be subjected to, will cause crystalline sub-structures to form in the metal. Over time, the varying degrees of crystallization in different parts of the mass will subject the whole to such a large amount of internal stresses that the part becomes very brittle and will cleave along the thousands of little crystalline lattices. High grade steel contains a high carbon content, helping to prevent this by toughening the steel.

[Anthony]

Enough talk, it's smashing time! :)

For practicality's sake, I'd say rule out LN2.

I'd think that cutting would cost you a fortune in disc, even if it was only mild steel, the shear thickness of it would eat up your blades.

How about smacking it with a shaped charge and seeing what happens? :)

[pyromaniac_guy]

Anthony.. did ya catch my idea of useing water????

[10fingers]

Enough talk exactly! A blind man with a rusty file could have gotten the damn thing open by now.

[xoo1246]

Haha, that was funny and true. By the way, DBSP you could download the safe cracking manual from the FTP. I'm almost done, will covert it to PDF.

[Machiavelli]

Thanks xoo. While I didn't bother to continue the discussion on the ftp, I'm glad someone's finally working on that book.

[McCoy]

Don't want to sound negative, but the railway track looks indeed a bit odd. First of all, that the track is torn in two pieces is strange. If it would be cast iron it would be possible but I agree with Mick that it can't be cast iron, it just looks that way when it breaks. I saw a piece of old track and it indeed makes you think it's cast iron with a small layer of normal steel on top and sure does look different from the normal end of a track or a pice of track that has been cut by a torch or grinding wheel.
Secondly, the hole produced differs a lot from what you expect from the effect of a (improvised winebottle) shaped charge. If you look at the pictures in the book "improvised shaped charges" you see the effect of a cokebottle charge on 1" steel from a armoured door. It's more or less a round hole, sharp edges on the top (and probably stretched steel edges on the other side ) and the steel is still flat and not bended and torn. Similar to the effect of an acetylene torch, just smoother (and quicker :) ).
And although the railway track is not 1" thick (maybe 1/2" ?) I would expect the same effects: a more or less round hole with sharp edges on the impact side and some stretched steel on the exit side and the inside very smooth. And little or no bending of the steel around.
And what certainly is not to be expected is breaking up of the whole track (if it would be brittle you would expect breaking it up to pieces in all directions anyway).
But I could be wrong (although this happens not often :) ).
Anyway, I too think it's about time you bust into your safe, and might I recommend to use explosives :) (not because it's the best method (you'll probably be better off using the lockpicking/breaking methods described) but I just want to see what the effects will be. Saves me a safe :) ).

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Well, the wine bottle shaped charge liners isn't exactly perfect. Dependends on the bottle you use and on the standoff distance. To me it looks like a fairly wide and not so deep cone was use(?) in combination with ordinary blast effect. Here is images off an early shaped charge with a not so ideal liner and too close standoff. You still have a shaped charge effect, but the force is applied to a larger area. And the jet has not enough time to fully extend before it reaches the pipe.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC01.jpg</a> (Entry hole)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC02.jpg</a> (Multiple exits holes)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/SC03.jpg</a> (View from inside pipe)

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[andreas]

Whell I dond't know if anybody has any idear of metall structural behaviour or mafufacturing methods. A railway track is never cast becouse that wouldn't stand up to the abuse. A railway track is is formed with big wheels as it is in a red hot state. This couses the metal parts to fuse a cast piece is so brittle becouse the inner and outer layers cool in a different rate witch causes stresses within the metall. And further more because there are sand pieces and bubbles of air trapped in the metal. The point of my story is that this is probably a corroded galvanised bit of cast steel. And not a railway track as this cant be cast becouse of the stresses it has to stand up with. Ps this is basic noledge that you learn in the studie of technical engineering. Do a search on test peaces of pulling tests off different metalls there is a are three basic things and that are elastic stress, plastic stress and breaking stress.
elastic means that the metall does deform but not permanent
plastic means it deforms permanent
breacking speaks for itself.
cast metall doesn´t stand up well toplastic/ and elastic stress, but they do deform. please correct me if I´m wrong it´s bin a wile since a was tought that but if I´m not mistaken that´s what´s the whole thing is about

please don´t look at spelling or anything else.

ps the bolts are usually onely hardened on the outer layer because this helps the resistents to saws but also to resist the hamering.
This hardening is done by putting the bolts in a layer of coal and the warming it when it has reached a few hundred they maintain this temp for half an hour to an hour. then they dip this in cold water. what happens is the outer layer of the iron absorbs the carbon and formes ironcarbide on the outer layer witch is the tough layer.

<small>[ June 27, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: andreas ]</small>

[DBSP]

The track isn't a real railway track, it's about half the size. I have no idea of where it has been used but I might think that it could have been at an industry or something similar. I think that it is cast but I can't be shure now can I so lets just drop that shit now. And as Anthony said you can all rule out the N2.

And as I said before I can't blow the safe until (erliest) next week.

[McCoy]

While we're waiting for the great safe blasting event I just want reply to XOO about the shaped charge pictures. If that's the effect of a winebottle shaped charge, DBSP should forget about using it. Because according to the pictures no jet is formed at all. The entry hole shows no sign at all of the impact of a jet. And the holes in the other side of the pipe seem to be produced merely by steel fragments from the entry side. And the small dents and deformations seem to be the effect of small particles but they might also be produced by the remains of a very imperfect and dispersed jet.
This might all be caused by a too small stand off distance, I don't know. Maybe at the right stand off a good jet is formed and a real cutting effect will be produced (small round hole, sharp entry edges, smooth inside and stretched exit side and little bending and shearing of the steel).
Anyway I think it's difficult to use this winebottle charge to produce a precise cut. I think a contact charge is easier and better. It will blast the safe for sure (and render it useless for normal usage (just like the shaped charge method) but it will be very perfect for further safe blasting experiments :) ).

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[DBSP]

Our SC:s arent the same. I used a wine bottle shaped charge and he used a meassuring cup made out of metal. That one isn't coned all way up thats the reason to the bad affect on the pipe.

[xoo1246]

Exactly, but you still have a munroe effect, an ordinary charge placed at that distance wouln't have done nothing like it. The point was that if you aren't using an ideal cone and the right standoff, you STILL have a munroe effect but not as directed as if you are using an ideal cone. I belive a wine bottle SC could do it.

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

Glass makes for shitty SC because glass isn't a ductile material. It shatters.

Oh sure, it'll partially liquify under the immense heat and pressure of a high explosive, but it's more like a blob of snot than the sharp jet you'd get with a proper metal liner.

From the pictures, it's obvious that the glass is smashing it's way through the metal by brute force. There's no concentration of force into a jet happening here.

With proper jet formation, the surrounding metal will be basically untouched with a neat hole through it. You're getting sections of metal peeled back like a banana peel. This is impact shearing. The rail was too brittle to bend, so it cracked instead.

Whatever you use, use sand poured in through a hole you drilled into the safe to keep the contents from burning up.

[pyromaniac_guy]

does anyone have any photos of the type of cut a proper shape charge can produce? (both round and linear if possible) I did a google image search, as well as an archive search and didnt come up with anything....
I dont care if the charge wasnt commerical or military, so long as it was manufacutred in an 'ideal' configuration, ie no wine bottle charges...

[PYRO500]

I don't have any photos either, all I can tell you is what I have seen with my own eyes. THe hole that a shaped charge cuts us usually a bit distorted and has no rip the hole is straight through and looks like someone poured liquid steel through a block of ice, you get a nice clean cut all the way through the piece of metal and sometilmes the liner may "splatter" that is if the charge is not directly touching the piece of metal it may split in air or splatter on impact or something leading to a hole or two beside the main hole that similarily flows through the metal

[zaibatsu]

Not exactly what you are looking for, but here are some cross sectional pictures of shaped charges.
<a href="http://www.llnl.gov/str/gifs/Baum3.gif" target="_blank">http://www.llnl.gov/str/gifs/Baum3.gif</a>

[McCoy]

Like I said before, there are pictures in the book "improvised shaped charges". And someone scanned it and made it downloadable in some topic here on the Forum, I think it was Montana (can't remember which topic, sorry). And there is some Japanese site with LSC's, I'll try and find it.
Anyway, forget the winebottle shaped charge. The only thing it does, is giving the explosive a V-shaped cavity resulting in the wellknown Monroe effect like XOO said. But it will produce no jet. Not even an imperfect one.
First of all the shape is no good. Secondly it's too thick. All cones for shaped charges are 2mm thick the most (apart from a few exceptions of course). Using thicker ones results in no or imperfect jets and they absorb a lot of the energy of the explosive (so less energy for the jet). Although maybe glass can be an exception to this rule because normal SC's use metal liners, I think the bottom of a wine bottle is to thick for an effective SC (although glass can be and is used as liner in some cases, even water can be used as a 'liner').
The wine bottle is not even suited for a good Monroe-effect because it absorbs energy from the explosive (breaking it up and melting it etc.). You better use thin plastic or paper if you just want the Monroe-effect (and the stand off distance for maximum effect would be equal to the depth of the cavity).
And some other things about the stand off distance: it isn't that critical. There is an optimum: the distance at which the maximum penetration is achieved. At greater distances the penetration will be less but not dramatically. That only happens when the stand off distance is much too low. There is a rule of thumb for optimum stand off distance, but I don't remember it exactly, I think it is 1.75 times cone depth.

A simple improvised shaped charge would be bending a 1-2mm thick sheet of copper into a cone (60-90 degree). Put it in some tin can (empty Coca-cola can is just fine) and fill it homegenously with an explosive with VoD exceeding 6000 m/s. The height of the explosive must be around twice the height of the cone. And the stand off must be around 1.75 times the height of the cone.
And although AN/NM has a high enough VoD I think that if you use crystaline AN it has the drawback of having a lot of airspaces between the crystals and you need a real 'solid' explosive for shaped charges, so you're better off using powdered AN prills.
This charge should give a real cutting effect (and will be nothing like the pictures I have seen thus far).

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[McCoy]

Go to <a href="http://www.kacoh.co.jp/page_folder/technique_v_cord.html" target="_blank">http://www.kacoh.co.jp/page_folder/technique_v_cord.html</a> for pictures of LSC's and effects. Nice eh? You could cut a square out of the side of your safe with these things :) . And they seem not to hard to make do they, especially the left one on the bottom of the page: just a piece of 1-2mm thick copper sheet bended in a W-shape and filled with a solid explosive, preferably RDX (but AN/NM will probably do also). Fucking simple that is.

And according to the pictures they use that one for cutting the I-beam of about 1" (?) thick. And I think (my japanese is not that good) it contains 4000 gr/ft (how much gram/meter is that?). This should give you an idea how big a LSC you need for the safe.

<small>[ July 02, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[pyromaniac_guy]

McCoy,
where are you getting your info???
According to urbanski optimum cone thickness is .4d/liner density (where d is the diameter of the cone opening ). The height of the cone should be 1.3d (42 degrees) and the ttoal charge heigh should be 1.7d optimum standoff is listed as 6 times cone diameter...

[Anthony]

The greater the standoff (to a point) the thinner the jet will be and so the force will be more concentrated on the target material and it will cut better. But an improperly formed jet will break up before hitting the target if the standoff is too great. To utilise high standoffs you need well formed liners.

4000 grains is 259.19gm or 0.57143lb

The cut on that pipe on the Japanese page is pretty impressive.

[DBSP]

I've started boubting about the wine SC the least week or so. I could make myself an SC in metall but then I would have the problem with the papers in the safe. I think that I will have to fill the safe with sand before trying anything, the problem is that there are two compartments in the safe, one upper and one lower which means drilling two holes anf filling with sand. And at that the safe is heavy as hell. I have benn thinking about using LSCs but that would probably mean that I would have to blast the bolt several times, If you look at the LSC I made(pics in forum pic and..) that one ripped a 6mm stell plate off, but thats different this is about 20mm and probably hardened. I I where to use an LSC I would have to use very short pieces thus I wouldn't be able to use ANNM. What should I use instead? I could make HMDN but is that powerfull enaugh? Or maby NG or NGlycol soaked in a bit of AN, I'll be getting some 68% HNO3 next week so I could make them both. Or maby a slurry/liquid of a bit AN and NM sensitised by NH3(btw whats the ratios for NM sensitising with NH3)

Do you have any ideas?

[McCoy]

I get my information from everywhere. And the most important thing I learned about (linear) shaped charges is that if you change one of the variables (thickness liner, material liner, shape liner, length liner, angle liner, sort of explosive, density of explosive, amount of explosive, stand off distance) just a bit, the penetration will differ (sometimes dramatically). Even with the same professional precision LSC's it's difficult to get the exact same results.
So it's difficult to say how to make one and predict the penetration and those figures of Urbanski are certainly not for The Ultimate Shaped Charge.

What I do know is that the liner of LSC's is never greater than 2mm even the big ones. Maybe with some big conical shaped charges this will be different, but even then I don't think it will be very much thicker (what is the thickness of the liner of the shaped charge in a anti-tank weapon for example?).
And the angle of the liner is not a fixed 42 degree, not even optimum at that angle, even if Urbanski says it. Angle of the liner can be 90 degree's easily, maybe even up to 120 degree. Many LSC's have such an 90 degree angle (see the Japanese site). I think the figures Urbanski gives are for a specific SC e.g. the shaped charge in an anti-tank weapon or something (I don't have Urbanski at hand).
And the stand off distance is also no static figure and certainly not 6 times cone height. There are conical shaped charges that are used to penetrate targets (concrete, steel) as far as 50-100 meters away (go to <a href="http://www.elp-logistik.com/katalog/englisch/03Explosives/inhalt.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.elp-logistik.com/katalog/english/03Explosives/inhalt.shtml</a> and click on MEPS also for the water "liner")).
The rule of thumb I gave, is for improvised LSC's. They probably have no perfect jet, so the stand off distance can't be too big. And like I said it isn't that critical. A LSC with an optimum stand off distance of 1" will still have a good (70-90%) penetration depth at 2" or even 3" stand off distance. Only if you go below about 1/2" there's a great decrease in penetration. So again what Urbanski states is not what I learned, but I wouldn't go as far as to say Urbanski is wrong :) , those figures are just for some specific shaped charge.

And about a good explosive to use: RDX. Easy to make. High VoD. easy to handle. But you could also use double based smokeless powder instead (go to <a href="http://www.spreng.de/luzern/" target="_blank">http://www.spreng.de/luzern/</a> and click on Resaflex: a LSC with double based smokeless powder). And you could use ANNM just as well.
So DPSB don't tell us you're not gonna do it, we've had that before.

<small>[ July 04, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[DBSP]

Just a note that safe WILL be blown, I'm not the type of guy making such a topic just for a bit attention.

The only thing that is trubbleing me is what explosive to use, I will probably not be able to use ANNM because the ammount will be to small. I belive I will go for liners and blasting the bolts layer by layer if nessesary. I've started experimenting with the "cones" this far. (In copper).

[Mick]

if your not sure what to use for an explosive, just hit it with everything.

use the safe as a test bed for a couple of different explosives.

have some fun with it.

[pyromaniac_guy]

McCoy...
dude i never said the figures i listed were set in stone... just optimal figures.. obviously certain charges for certain aplications will have specs that deviate from the norm....
with regards to liner thickness, inorder to exceed 2mm with copper you would have to have a charge diamter of some 65mm of so in diameter useing a copper liner... thats a pretty signifigant shapecharge! If you are still of such opinion please cite some refrence that backs up why you 'think' shape charges never have a liner much thicker than 2mm

[McCoy]

OK DBSP, didn't mean it the way it sounded, I was just a bit worried that you would cancel the safe blasting, because I am looking forward to it (I think we all are). The worse thing that could happen right now is that you found the key :) . So like Mick pointed out very eloquently: "just hit it!"

And pyromaniac: I don't think that the figures Urbanski gives are for the optimal SC. I think it are figures for a specific SC. Like I said: there are no rules when you design a (L)SC. Change one thing, and the result changes. So there are no fixed figures. And there are LSC's, conical SC's, trumphet SC's, SC's with liquid liners, SC's for targets at 50m, for penetrating steel, concrete, Kevlar, granite rock, armoured cars :) and they all differ.
Except for one thing: the thickness of the liner never exceeds 2mm :) . No just kidding. It's just that I never seen a shaped charge with a thick liner (remember you need to "liquify" the metal liner and you don't need much to form a jet, so a thick liner is also not logical). But hey, I could be wrong and maybe some SC's use a thick liner. Proof me wrong.

<small>[ July 05, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Since this discussion has turned into a shaped charge discussion, I might as well post it here. I got an idea, if you can't aquire/make solid copper cones, possibly you could make them out of thin copper(or better lead) wire. Wind the wire around a suitible form such as a suitible glass(remove the foot so that you can remove your cone when done). When you have made one layer, spray with a thin layer of plastic to keep the wires together. Start over untill you have the thickness you are striving for.
I bet it would work well.

[Ctrl_C]

how about LN2 the door and then use a high brisance explosive a moment later? A kilo of APAN would do it i bet. That's the first thing I would try personally.

[pyromaniac_guy]

xoo....
as a tesla coiler, i can tell you that winding a coil on a connical shape is a real bitch.... wire just doesnt like to stay put. about the only way to do it is to wind the coil on something that is very sticky, ie a cone with double sides tape... the after the coil is done apply a layer of exoxy to turn it rigid.... this would be a most difficult solutionj to an easy problem.. you dont NEED copper for a shape charge, just about any metal could be used instead, you could use aluminum siding, thin lead sheet for roofing uses, hell you could even cut up a cookie sheet and rool it to the proper dimensions....

[xoo1246]

pyromaniac_guy: You are right, it's not exactly easy, but I have tried and it have managed to make cones. What I like about it is that you get a very nice uniform cone.
Nevermind. :)

[nbk2000]

Wire coils can't be used as cone liners because they're not a singular body of metal. In order to properly collapse, the liner must be one piece. A wire coil isn't going to collapse properly, but rather jumble up like a handful of string.

A plumb bob would make an excellent form for hammering out liner cones on.

Most SC do use thin metal as a liner for a sharp penetrating jet. But AA SC's use thick liners to project a broad, dense, jet that can withstand high lateral forces and maintain enough velocity to penetrate an aircraft fuselage at distance.

Look in the knowledge section under the Patents topic for a link to an urban warfare SC that uses a thick (1/4") aluminum liner to blast large holes through walls and such.

I'd also recommend starting with a small SC, less than an inch in diameter. Better to gouge the safe without penetrating, than to vaporize a fist sized hole through it and destroy everything in it in the process. :D Though we wouldn't mind pictures of that either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Perhaps you should try using a large steel slug to fracture the safe, rather than an SC to penetrate it.

[pyromaniac_guy]

nbk,
Why would a sc require a soild liner? the process will push any material well into the plastic range, so the liner isnt going to act like a solid for very long after the detonator goes off....

[xoo1246]

I have heard powders can be pressed into liners too. I will test it when I have time/resources.

[McCoy]

The suggestion of NBK to fracture the safe with a big steel slug, immediately reminded me of the pictures of the track: it looks like it has been hit by some hard object with some speed (instead of a jet from an SC). So to fracture the safe just use the SC used for the track <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
And NBK, when I say "prove me wrong" doesn't mean you IMMEDIATLY have to respond and come up with the proof that I am as wrong as can be :) .
And I think the method suggested by XOO is promising. This way you could also produce a FLEXIBLE metal liner (for flexible LSC's).

And might I just recommend to use a couple of LSC's to blast a hole in the side of the safe?
Not only are LSC's easily made. You also need a hole to get your papers out, don't you? :D
And LSC's use little amounts of explosive and are very precise, accurate and efficient (well, actually I just like to see if IT can be done this way). I'll give you a 5 star rating if you do it :D .

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[pyromaniac_guy]

i dont know about blowing a hole in the side of the safe... dont forget that there are possibly things in there the guy wants to keep... it's kind of hard to tel lthe jet to only go through the safe wall, and not the stacks of bearer bonds on the inside :) I would think that useing minimally sized lsc's and attacking the bolts would be best, even if you have to take seveal shots at um... baring thaT i would say take a linear charge and attack the side of the safe where the bolts lock into , ie shave off an entire corner of the safe...

[DBSP]

Blasting a hole in the side isn't an option, one reason is that the wall is 40mm thick when the bolts only are 20mm. I think I will go for LSCs and hitting it repetedly if nessesary.

I'm going on a holiday trip up north next week and I might be away for a couple of weeks. SO I'm not shure if I'll get the time to blast it before, I'm not shure though.

And I'll see if I can get a few pics of the cones tonight.

[10fingers]

This friggin' safe isn't open yet?
I think explosives is a bad, bad idea. The odds of doing it without destroying the safe and the contents are slim. I know it sounds like the most fun though. :D
I think the best suggestion I have heard is to use one of those abrasive wheels that go on a circular saw. With enough time they will cut through anything. If you cut a hole through the back, then you could replace the lock and weld the piece back in and you have a safe.

[DBSP]

I don't need the safe as a safe, I need it to make a box for pressing caps later. I'll try hitting it with an LSC to see what happens and then I'll decide what to do. I don't have any good explosive ready now though, I won't be(most likely) getting my acids untill this weekend.

got a pic of my cones (this far)
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/cones.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/cones.JPG</a>

[McCoy]

According to the picture of the two liners they are quite thick and short. You'd be better off using thinner ones but else be sure you use enough explosive. To provide enough energy to form a jet out of all that copper and not just copper fragments.
Secondly: linear shaped charges can be small (width/height) but not in length. Because the first few centimeters the cutting effect is not so good, just after about 10 cm the cutting effect gets to it's maximum. Probably this got something to do with the direction/shape of the shockwave hitting the liner. And the detonator at the beginning of the LSC is probably also disturbing. So a LSC shorter than 10 cm is no good.

And is the side of the safe 40mm massive steel or does it consist of two sheets of steel 40mm apart? In that case a (small) LSC to the side is sufficient.
And cutting bit by bit is also not possible/difficult, because of stand off distance problems.

Anyway, some big LSC is probably necessary. An improvised LSC can probably be compaired to Resaflex or the DIOPLEX/NEPTUNEX charges (go to sites I gave earlier). Which means you need about 1700 gram per meter of explosive (and a copper liner 90 degree angle, 40mm wide about 2mm (?) thick) to cut through 50mm steel (penetration depth is 38mm). And looking at the Japanese LSC of 4000 gr/ft (about 750 g/m): it cuts through 1" steel. So although LSC's are the most efficient (and the best option for the job), you need a lot of explosives anyway. But that's no problem for me :D but be prepared to set off some big charges.

And can't you do it before your holiday? You got us all excited now. And why would you need the acids. Use AN/NM, use DBSP.

<small>[ July 09, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[Mick]

maybe this is a dumb question, but could you use APAN for a shaped charge?

[Harry]

Thermite on hinges, anyone? If you're going to fill with sand anyway, burning the hinges might do the trick.

Harry

[DBSP]

Today I found the bolts holding the safe at the right side, I don't know the english name for it but it exists on every door on the opposite side of the handle.(things that make the door "swingable")

The bolts where tighted with locktite, which meant that they where really stuck, after some work I got them off, which in turn means that the door now only is secured by the locking bolts now. Now I got a gap large enaugh to get a small screwdriver onto the bolt. I put the screw driver onto the bolt and hit it with a hammer, the bolts are NOT hardened as I had thought. I might be able to cut it using an ordinary metal cutting saw. Not an angle grinder thats risking the papers. It's hard work but probably the easiest way.

[Anthony]

I would have thought having the hinges on the outside of a safe was a pretty big design flaw...

Blow it up anyway! :)

[xoo1246]

APAN may not be a very good choice for SC:s since it has low Vod.
I have burned through a few mm of hardened steel with thermite, it could work.

[kingspaz]

i think he wants to protect the papers inside <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ....i think strategically placed shaped charges should be ok if you can angle them to blast certain point of the safe off or weaken certain ares without the jet entering the inside. what about freezing? liquid nitrogen then smack the safe in half with a big hammer....just an idea although i'd say unlikely to work...

[DBSP]

Just to clarify some things about the hinges, they are not on the outside, look at the pic and you'll see.

Wether the hinges are on or off the safe is still locked becase the locking bolts keep the door from moving to far.

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/bolt_holding_the_door.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/bolt_holding_the_door.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/gap_on_side.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/gap_on_side.JPG</a>

The first pic shows the gap at the right side of the safe.
The last pic shows the upper right corner from above.

[McCoy]

It was clear from the beginning that using explosives was not the most obvious choice for opening the safe. But since it's also obvious what is discussed on this Forum one should not be suprised that explosives are highly recommended. And in many ways it is the best solution :D .

What I'm trying to say DBSP is, that your not going to tell us that after all this discussion, and all the effort put into it on how to open it with explosives, you're gonna tell us you're gonna use a saw!
What a suprise that you didn't find the key!
Remember what you stated july the 7th, 7.29 PM?
Well, let me remind you:"Just a note, the safe is gonna be blown"
and "I'm not the kind of guy trying to get some attention".

And in some other topic people made it clear that joining this Forum is a risk considering all the cops watching and joining. So I would not really appreciate it if you don't come up with the goods after all the effort and risks(!) I (and others) took. You probably know what happens to people that don't come up with their end of the deal in such situations. So please use explosives.

"Either you take care of business, or the business takes care of you"

[pyromaniac_guy]

McCoy...
lighten up dude
who died and made you god?
The only risks you took in answering this guys request for advice is capral tunnel syndrome from excessive use of your keyboard...

Just cuz someone asks a question in the forum does not mean the use of explosives will be mandated in their actions after any responses to said question...

[McCoy]

Pyromaniac....
Wake up dude!
And DBSP....
You're a fake or a cop.
I had my doubts from the beginning but thought I should give you some credit....but it's clear to me now.

<small>[ July 14, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

[BrAiNFeVeR]

McCoy, it's clear to me too !!

You're obviously full of you know what.
I've searched for you're posts, and it seemed you only reply'd to 3 threads in total, wich one of them was that ridiculous armoured car thread you started yourself.

You, as a newbie member, really shouldn't question the actions of a more respected member such as DBSP. If he chooses to open the safe without the help of any energetic material, that's his choice.

And, even if he is a cop (wich I really doubt), he still has aided in the search of knowledge on this forum, and provided us in this thread with a practical problem, worthy of discussion.

I would probably open it up the same way (mechanical) if I thought the contents had some value to me.

[xoo1246]

Well for beeing 17 he is a good cop. :D
McCoy, we are bored with your attitude.

[kingspaz]

McCoy, how long have you been here? not very long. if you don't like DBSP then thats your problem not ours so keep it to yourself and don't clutter this thread with your useless drivling bullshit. if you make an accusation atleast have evidence...
slip up again and you will be removed.

DBSP, after looking at the pictures you have posted i have thought of a possible solution. now, the walls of the safe are really thick. the gap between the wall and door is also a decent size. if an explosive was pressed into this gap it should be able to lever the door off leaving the contents inside unburnt. i think if you made a plastique using PIB from blu-tak as a binder then you could simply press it into the gap and detonate it.

and McCoy, don't give me the 'thats not fair' bullshit. lifes not fair, get over it.

<small>[ July 14, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

[nbk2000]

"Slip up again..."

:confused:

That implies the opprotunity to do so again remains.

Which there isn't because he's OUTTA HERE! HED for McCoy (Say "hi" to Captain Kirk for us, eh? :p )

*sniff* *sniff* Anyone else smell flashpowder and bullshit? Seems familiar for some reason. Argumenative tone, much talk and little facts....AH HA! Now I remember who this was (past tense :D ).