Caught on tape!

[nbk2000]

I was watching the movie "Heist" with Gene Hackman as the leader of a gang of robbers.

In the opening scene, we see him take down a high class jeweler. Unfortunately, he's caught on camera without his mask on. So, while his crimies are looting the place, he's tracking down the video surveillance system to find the tapes.

That's when he discovers <a href="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Heist.txt" target="_blank">he's fucked!</a> :mad: (RealVideo, 150KB. Change .txt to .rm to watch on your computer)

So, this brought to mind what a person could do if they were in a similar situation where they had found the VCR, but couldn't get to it because it was locked up. What could you do to destroy the tape?

[Eliteforum]

A shaped charge direct into the recorder, only method insuring that it will be destroyed.

There's also other methods such as using thermite (or a thermal lance if you have one handy)

[EP]

Perhaps electromagnets could work (like in Fight Club). Other than that, the shaped charge to blast it or heat to melt it (a regular torch if it's close enough).

[nbk2000]

Perhaps a picture to illustrate what you'd be up against.

<a href="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/CCTV_Cabinet.jpg" target="_blank">http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/CCTV_Cabinet.jpg</a>

At my job, the VCR is in a steel box with a 1/4" thick polycarbonate window. But the lock is a chessy wafer lock that could be picked in a few seconds by someone skilled in the art.

The simplist thing to do would be to pick or force the lock. However, if it was something like the above picture, that may not be possible without use of power tools.

I was thinking a foaming metal incendiary that could be sprayed in through any available opening. It would expand to fill up the cabinet or VCR, and would burn very intensly with a metal slag to destroy the tape.

Ideally, you'd be able to squirt it directly into the VCR tape slot so it was in direct contact with the tape, ensuring destruction.

Demagnetizers only work in direct contact with the tape. If you're a foot away, forget it.

You'd want to avoid explosives because of the noise drawing attention to you. Though you may want to bring some with you if such security was a possibility.

An RTPB violation in the movie was NOT planning for failure. The thieves were depending on drugged coffee to knock out all of the employees, but one of them hadn't drunk enough of it and was still awake when they broke in. Hackman could have taken her out while wearing a mask if he was quick about it, but he went with playing himself off as a someone needing her to call the cops till he was close enough to stun her.

Also, failing to plan for failure to wear a mask. They were all equipped with masks because they knew there were cameras, but they didn't have a backup plan for in case they were caught on camera without the masks.

Something like a disguise that'd pass as a real face (padded cheeks, fake nose, different hair color, etc). After all, wouldn't you assume that, if a person took off a mask, that the face underneath was their real face, and not another disguise?

[angelo]

in that picture you have NBK2000, a simple angle grinder or an oxy cutting torch could be used to get into the cabinet, but one makes a lot of noise and the other requires bulky equipment to be carried.

You could at least use the gas from the oxy torch to fuel the fire you light to get rid of any evidence.

[mrloud]

In the CCTV cabinet picture it looks like an open grill forms the front of the cabinet. Using a soft squeezy bottle with a rubber tube you could squirt a couple hundred millilitres of petrol directly into the openings of the VCRs. Ignite it just before leaving. Alternatively you could flood the VCR with thinners or some other solvent that will dissolve the tape.

[nbk2000]

I thought of both of those, but there's a problem with both too.

Fire spreads. And while that may be a good thing, it could also be bad. Say a firefighter dies because the building collapses on him while he's inside trying to put out the raging inferno that started when you set the VCR on fire.

Now you've got a capital murder beef hanging over your head with no statute of limitations because even unintentional deaths caused by an arson fire are considered the same as premeditated murder (in california anyways).

Solvents are quiet, but you'd need one that is both non-flammable, and non-conductive to electricity (for obvious reasons), that is capable of liquifying polyester (VCR tape), and possibly polystyrene or polycarbonate (VCR casing).

Getting it into the VCR might be easy, but will it get in through the tiny gap the tape feeds through and get to the tape in the spool? And will it get under several layers of tightly wrapped tape to the part that has your face recorded on it?

If you've got time, like a burglary during off hours when the alarm has been nuetralized and no-ones coming, then I'd go with forcing the lock by whatever means necessary, as long as it's quiet. Go home to get the tools, then come back, if needed.

If time is short, and the cops are already on their way, then noise is irrelevant, but speed is essential. Blow the damn thing away! A small amount of explosive, a few detonators, and some liners for making LSC or SC as needed on site could be carried as per RTPB "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

As last resort, fire. There's always plenty of flammable materials around to build a blazing bonfire in a building. Problem is that I've seen how videotapes have been pulled out of melted VCRs that were playable after being cleaned up and put into new cases, so this is a hit-or-miss last resort.

There's an incendiary called "GOOP" (SIPRI IW/FTP) that is magnesium powder mixed with nitrate, gasoline, and bound together with asphalt. Burns at like 4,000F and is impossible to put out. This would be the shit to inject into a VCR since there's NO WAY a tape is going to survive this stuff. :D

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

what about conc H₂SO₄ in a little squiry bottle? Using a fair amount of insulation to ensure protection (thick welders glove)

or failing that you could have a "ribbon" charge (you know, thin strip of plastisized explosives) with some means of inserting (wraped around a coat-hanger wire or within a thin-walled tube for a bit of shrapnel)

or if that doesn't seem realistic for any reason, you could use a length of cannon fuse and form a tight coil and poke this in ontop of the tape, light one end and retire to enjoy video tape flambe' :D it would be fast and would offer little chance for surroundings to catch alight (if fast burning that is :rolleyes: )

the best policy would have to be NOT getting caught on tape (even if cutting the power supply is needed to ENSURE this)

[vulture]

If you'd be able to disable such a bigass security system, one could assume that you're also capable of cutting the VCR power no?

A high pressure CO₂ spray and a tiny bit of thermite would quickly deal with the lock in the picture.

Polycarbonate dissolves in methylenechloride and get's attacked by alkalies, amines and ammonia.

And how about punching a hole and then filling the cabinet with a conductive solvent?

[Machiavelli]

It's a nice movie, isn't it? How about using a long drill bit to go through the screen and into the vcr? I don't remember what equipment he had with him him on this job but a drill would seem essential to me for this and with some masonry bits you should be able to go through the screen and into the vcr/tapes in seconds and rip everything to shreds.

[nbk2000]

Can't count on cutting the power to disable the cameras because they have these things called "U.P.S." (Uninterruptable Power Supply) that could keep the recorders running. The competitor store up the street has one for its cameras.

The drill idea is good. If a non-conductive sleeve was made to hold the bit, then you wouldn't have to worry about getting electrocuted. Plus, the drill could be used to make a direct pathway into the tape casssette to introduce the solvent to liquify the tape. :)

[Agent Blak]

What about the use of Micro wave radiation? You wouldn't be far from an outlet. I am sure the device could be made compact. You could use it to fry cammera aswell.

In the case of the housing you describe(NBK) I would opt for the solvent. If the MicroWaves Work that would be Ideal. It would look untampered with.

[nbk2000]

Well, if you cut the power off (after the fact of having your face captured), you'd no longer have power for a microwave. Plus, I don't know if plastic film would be affected by it.

Fortunately VCR casettes are free for the taking in many places, so testing is in order for solvents, microwaves, etc. :)

BTW, someone's supposed to e-mail me soon with some news I've been waiting on.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[zeocrash]

the cables to the VCR usually carry fairly small amounts of electrcity, but what if you were to pass a large amount of electricity down the CCTV cable, would this desrtoy the video and VCR.
Heist was a cool film though

[PYRO500]

I think that shorting out the vcr after you commited the crime wouldn't work reliably because that would likely only cause damage to the vcr and not the tape. and if you could get access to the power supply why would you bother taking out the vcr's if there was no ups and all you had to do is cut power?

[vulture]

How about boobytrapping the video cabinet? No need to make noise and if someone's going to check it they....well...just never find out do they?

You're fucked ofcourse if they play the tape directly from the VCRs.

[mark]

I dont mean to sound ignorant NBK, but is that "GOOP" stuff comercialy availible? Or is that just a homemade item?

[nbk2000]

You may only be able to get to power after having gotten inside, thus already be caught on tape before the power is cut (to disable vault alarm or such).

With the advent of digital VCRs that use an HDD, instead of tape, a voltage spike might cause a HDD crash, but that's too iffy to your freedom on.

Boobytrapping the box isn't going to prevent the cops from viewing the tape, if only because the victims severed hand is still holding it. :rolleyes:

GOOP isn't something you can get unless you're in the military, but you can duplicate the formula from the SIPRI IW book, which gives sufficient details for doing so. It's quite simple stuff to make.

[Terry Collins]

What Gene Hackmann should have done was: just putting on the mask and then clubbing (or clippin') the girl :) .
But I liked the movie also. Even more because they used real high explosives, when they blew up that shack by the airport. And that happens not often in the movies, most of the time it's just a charge blackpowder blowing up bags of gasoline. Which is just a sorry excuse for an explosion.

[PYRO500]

What about everyone's favorate solvent, Acetone? Dosen't acetone disolve polycarbonate? Also I think that it should eat through vcr tape too. The only problem is that it may take too long to dissolve the polycarbonate window and ifthey don't have a polycarb window you may not be able to get it into the vcr.

[nbk2000]

I read in a military MOUT PDF about using a CO2 extinguisher to cool shatterproof windows (plexi/polycarb) below their brittle temperature so they can be shattered.

I don't know of any third world hovels that have plexiglass windows, do you? Which just reaffirms my belief that the army is training for MOUT against its own citizens, but I digress.

Perhaps you could use a canned air duster turned upside down to spray the liquid onto the plastic, causing it to become frigid and brittle so it can be smashed.

[THErAPIST]

it could just be me being blind but i didnt see any mention of bolt cutters anywhere around here. dont they usually have nice thick rubber handles? if thats the case you wouldnt exactly have to worry about being electricuted and it would make simple work of a lock. and if noise was a problem then couldnt large amounts of smoke and or light be a problem too? thermite or goop and stuff. im sure they give off a nice amount of light correct? so a couple shaped sharges to open it in a last choice situation, a drill and a pair of bolt cutters. maybe a hack saw and a small hammer or something to smash what you could. and about the fire problem... how about having a fire extinguisher along with a squirt bottle full of gasoline? but i guess that would only be good if light and smoke werent an issue. acids are always a good thing. a gallon of any good acid should do a good job of disposing of a vcr and a tape right? just my 2 cents

edit: just thought of something. if acids are a problem and we want something that would kill the vcr and the tape wouldnt pirana fluid work well? sure it has its draw backs but wouldnt pirana fluid be a good thing to destroy pretty much anything besides glass?

<small>[ December 17, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: THErAPIST ]</small>

[Anthony]

Acids don't tend to attack many plastics, especially not as rapidly as would be needed in this situation.

[A-BOMB]

Now NBK which folder on the FTP is that SIPRI IW file in? or is it on the net somewhere or was it on the FTP before it crashed?

[nbk2000]

<a href="ftp://username:password@209.195.155.80/E&W%20Related/Explosives/Texts/Incendiary%20Weapons/" target="_blank">ftp://username:password@209.195.155.80/E&W%20Related/Explosives/Texts/Incendiary%20Weapons/</a>

[A-BOMB]

Thanks NBK I just downloaded it. Now were can I find asphalt, I guess I'll be following the road crew with a shovel this year when there out patching potholes.

[kingspaz]

you can get it from building supply places for use in sealing roofs(sp?). you heat it until its melted then spread it over the area to be sealed. let it dry and its waterproof.

[nbk2000]

It also comes in caulking tubes as a waterproof sealant for use around chimmney flashing. It's softened with solvents, like benzene, so it can be squeezed out. You could likely use it as is for making GOOP since you'd be adding solvents anyways.

[russian_chemist]

The truth is that if you was in London all you would need is a grade c (a weakest d is strongest) Allan key. All of mortgaged shops are covered by the Protection of the borough Council.

Now the main thing to remember is that only one Bourough council makes the special key and padlocks for the whole of london, The key is a H-8 medium tensile steel.

keys in the London Bourough are labeled on the Category of locks that they can open. they range from the H2-H16.

The H-8 key is specifically designed so that no other key could fit it from the H series, but sadly they overlooked the fact that people learnt to use an Alan key on them. Due to July being our Budget distribution date, the locks will stay in Circulation till then.

God bless Hackney Borough Council

Back with the task, normally i would add that i would not take my mask off during such a raid but there is only one way in my eyes to stop this cabinet.

Tragically i learnt this from the Blacks, as we always found they had done this to the machines every week on the estates that i worked.

The thing that they used to do was pour deisel through the grids and sadly time after time it would degrade the machine, tape, amp and microphone. It was utterly useless.

God damn them Street Urchins

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: russian_chemist ]</small>

[Anthony]

US tranlation: Allen Key = Hex Wrench

russian_chemist, any details on actually opening the lock? Is it a typically picking technique, or litterally using the allen key as a key?

[russian_chemist]

well being that i have had the key all the time i never really tried to open it, but i am informed that the security that we put in to these keys could not be beaten.

I was also informed that you literally have to push a 3mm Allan Key in to the slot and hit it through with a small mallet, the lock should open with relative ease.

We were never taught to pick locks as kids, but i can assure you, with a mini crobar, a small 4lb lump hammer and a thick pointed piece of metal (not sharp, more as blunt but as strong as you can get) you can open many latch, house, patio and car doors. Minus the most insignificant bend marks, you would never know that we had been there, the lock mechanisms would be fine too.

Does anyone else have local stories of Scientific Supremacy being brought down by a simple tool

(perfect key/beaten by\black theif and allen key)

Also it may interest you to know in the height of the cold war there was around 5 million dollars spent on making a pen that could write in Space for the USA. Russia used a pencil

[Anthony]

Yep :)

I remember seeing those pens for sale, for about £20-£30 IIRC, might have been Boy's Stuff.

[Mr Cool]

Well obviously the US had to do one better than the Russians, that's what the whole damn "war" was about. If the Russians used a pencil, the Americans would use a super-pen. If the Russians used a super-pen, the Americans would've used a particle beam to burn the writing into the paper, etc.
But you've gotta laugh. $5 million for a biro :rolleyes: .

[russian_chemist]

Now come on, i think that this shows the russians could survive in the bleakest of times. Where as the Americans, well they had their pen.

The united Kingdom spent 8 months and 750 000 pounds (1.5 million dollars) to find what the best way to dunk a biscuit in tea was.

:There is no difference in angle, temperature or viscosity (waste of money)

Scientists racing to find the Cure to CJD (mad cow disease) realise that they have been testing sheeps brains labelled wrong for two years wasting 4.5 million per annum (9 million total) in taxpayers money.

[nbk2000]

Our pen will write underwater, your pencil will not. :p

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[russian_chemist]

For this argument i am russian

for the pen you built at a cost of 5 million dollars.

The pencils that i could buy with this could build me a bridge over any body of water :p

(Typical shoddy russian architectual technique, using pencils when you need steel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

Also if you know somewhere in space that is underwater i suggest you let Nasa know and for a rather large price too :p :p

(Europa is in space and has water. Not that you guys will be needing to use space pens underwater there anytime soon...or ever. :D )

So near yet so far but merry Xmas all the same NBK :)

<small>[ December 23, 2002, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[russian_chemist]

About the article can you email me please Nbk, i am sorry i made this post but i can see no other way of contacting you.

Please delete it when you see it thanks

russian_chemist@hotmail.com

[Arkangel]

My goodness.....horseshit in this thread as well.

So I guess the best way of destroying the taped evidence is to pour diesel into the VCR cabinet for a few weeks before your heist.....or am I missing the point there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Oh, and of course you have to do the job somewhere in Hackney, with an Allen Key :p

I'm feeling sick again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Anthony]

Got to admit, doesn't sound like the ideal tool for the job - 3mm allen, when you're hammering it through the lock. Then again, even the most pick proof lock is useless when you can rip the shackle off.

Hard Lesson: Avoid "Tri-circle" padlocks, look sturdy for the price (cheap) but the "hardened steel" shackles are to the point when they shatter :rolleyes:

I challenge you to get into my car with a crowbar and me not notice you had done so (no, it isn't special...).

BTW, those write-underwater pens will be very useful the next time the shuttle floods and an urgent memo needs writing :D

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

I thought the reason for the pen was to graffiti the outside of mir space station :D

on the subject, has anyone seen those big tape-wiping electromagnets, one pass = erasure. if a thinner version was made, that could be inserted into the tape slot then the result is obvious, due to the fact that the tape will be recorded over if they suspect nothing is amiss (length of time is dependant on security level) then there will be no record of your presence, a worthy goal for any heist. Of course that depends on what your intentions are, a missing space-shuttle WOULD be noticed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

[nbk2000]

If you could find some kind of powerful electromagnet that could be fitted on the end of a long probe, then you might be able to slip it through a drill or grate hole into the case and leave it there.

The important thing with electromagnets is the reversal of the magnet fields. See, varying the magnetic flux is more effective in erasure then a simple static magnetic field. Especially if it's rapid and random. This confuses any attempts at reconstruction of the data by forensic pork.

I know you can find very powerful rare earth magnets that will hold 50 pounds, and are less than 10mm on all sides. Pricey at more than $50 (new), but well worth it for the purpose it's intended for.

[Anthony]

Maybe a big old bulk eraser might be useful?

[russian_chemist]

Just an idea, Debunk this at will

Instead of trying to get to it through the grated locked door (Made not to let people in) can anyone vouch for finding the wall that it backs on to. Naturally if it is an exterior wall then you are fucked but all you would need is an insulated (for want of a better term) drill bit and a slightly planned, well aimed drilling session.

I can only see the wall that the video system backs on to is unprotected, there for a lot less hassle to penetrate.

[Sparky]

About those magnets, Lee Valley sells rare earth magnets 1" in diameter and 1/8" thick that can lift a 35 lb steel block. 10.95 for 5 of them. Then they sell metal cups to direct the flux, which "increases the strength of the exposed face by approximately 4 times". They only sell the cups for the 1/2" magnets (10 lb lift without cup), but they are just a zinc coated steel cup - should be easy to make. One inch is rather Then there's the 150 lb magnet but it's dimensions are 5" 2" 1" - not very useful.
If there was a steel grid in front of the vcrs then it would be hard to get it in (stick to the grid and not very likely the grid will be big enough). I don't think this would be practical. If there was lexan as well as the grid this wouldn't work.

I'm surprised the video isn't sent to a secure location. Maybe it is in real life. Not for corner stores of course but for banks.

Plastic surgery is your friend if you have money. Or you could probably work up a good disguise if you knew someone in theatre/movies who knows what the're doing. That's before you go on the job of course.

Wouldn't it be cool to know the kind of vcr they have, get a remote then tape over the last 10 minutes. Of course if you were that prepared you wouldn't get caught without your mask on.

I think the best way would be to make a small hole, preferrably via your rifle (If you blast away at the same spot does bullet proof glass give?). Then squirt in a flammable liquid that contains it's own oxygen. Or maybe magnanese septoxide or something. Light up.

[BoB-]

Bulletproof glass will melt.

You could always use a pnuematic blower to fill the entire cavity with thermit, it would'nt matter if the recorder were reinforced, I think 2-3lbs of thermit would still eat through it.

The tapes should be destroyed regardless of how much evidence is on them in my opinion, the cops could be able to tell age, sex, and maybe voice. This would also prevent them from gathering pattern evidence if a repeat crime were ever commited.

[nbk2000]

Ah Ha! This is what "The Screw" would be useful for. Not a giant sized one, but one that'd be able to fit the tip in the hole of a steel grate, and make a hole big enough to reach your hand through.

A 4" hole would be big enough to reach in, turn off the recorder, and pull out a tape. No noise, and would only take a few seconds. :)

The idea of bringing along a universal remote is also very good. I've seen them as small as a credit card. As long as you can figure out the manufacturer of the VCR, you can look it up on a table on the back of the remote, and set the remote for it.

Though physical destruction of the tape is always to be preferred.

[pyro225]

NBK wrote:

"A 4" hole would be big enough to reach in, turn off the recorder, and pull out a tape. No noise, and would only take a few seconds."

All time-lapse VCR's I've worked with have a "tape lock" function that allows the user to lock the VCR in record mode. Usually a combination of buttons unlocks the tape and then one can turn the recorder off and eject the tape.

NBK wrote:

"The idea of bringing along a universal remote is also very good. I've seen them as small as a credit card. As long as you can figure out the manufacturer of the VCR, you can look it up on a table on the back of the remote, and set the remote for it."

Neither can I recall any of said time lapse VCR's having IR remote control capability. The remote functions are usually controlled via PC RS-232 connection or dry contact inputs on the back. The increasingly popular DVR's (digital video recorders) are being used in most high(er) security applications now. These have much higher quality imaging, longer recording capacity, and are much less susceptible to tampering. I would have to say the weakest link in ANY video surveillance system is the camera itself. Get to the camera and disable it by covering the lens, repositioning it, cutting the power/signal cable, or destroying it as soon as possible (without being "identifiable") and then proceed. Beware of stealth/covert camera's - motion detectors, smoke detectors, pencil sharpeners, clocks, etc. ad infinitum - as they are VERY popular and very difficult to detect. Remember, camera's are most often installed to protect a business from it's own employees.

[nbk2000]

Getting your hands on the VCR is the biggest obstacle to overcome. Once you can actually TOUCH it, then all sorts of mayhem and malevolence can be brought to bear upon the poor machine. :D

Several of the places that I've worked at had remotes for the time-lapse recorders. I'd assume that the high-end security systems wouldn't have such an exploitable flaw, but human error is never to be underestimated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

RTPB "Better to have it..." CC remotes don't even weigh an ounce, so you'd lose nothing by bringing one along...just in case.

Fortunately, DVR's are still rather rare, and real time streaming of video feed to a remote host even more so. So, given the very low probability of remote storage, the destruction of the machine on site is of prime importance.

It happens all the time that a bank will get robbed, and the FBI discover that the VCR wasn't turned on, or the tape is worn down to fuzzy smears because the bankers are too cheap to buy new tapes every week. :)

Now, if you were to try to jack a Vegas casino, or a De Beers diamond mercantile, then you could bet your ass they'd have DVR's with real-time streaming to remote storage. :(

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Get to the camera and disable it...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">A good idea but...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Beware of stealth/covert camera's...very difficult to detect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">...it could be an impossible task, given the limited time you'd likely have to deal with them.

Hence the RTPB "Always assume you're on camera...wear a mask"

Now one thing that could obviate the risk of cameras would be to use an obscurant. Any kind of smoke, fog, or particulate (non-toxic or that you have protection against) that could reduce visibility to less than effective camera range would be an excellent defense against cameras.

I've seen "Fog in a Can" for sale at photography suppliers. Never bought it, so I dont' know how effective it is. Pyrotechnic smoke compounds are effective, but would require protective equipment for use indoors lest you suffocate yourself.

The _{cringing from having to say the word}Ninja smoke devices that use a central burster charge to disperse a fine particulate cloud would be excellent for this since they could be tossed in before you ever come within camera range, they explode creating an instantaneous cloud of obscuring, and are non-burning.

Ideally, whatever you used wouldn't set off any smoke detectors, which may trigger an automatic dialer to call the fire department.

You'd also need to be familiar with the target so you don't get disoriented in the smoke. If you had a thermal imager (yeah, right. If you had that much money...) than you could have smoke so thick that the victims couldn't see their hands in front of their faces while you're zipping along.

Now, if there's a material that could be dispersed that's opaque to visible light, but transparent to IR light, than you could use cheap CMOS cameras to make googles that let you see the IR light, unimpeded by the smoke.

You could only use this technique ONCE. Any more than that, and ou'll become known as the "Smokey Bandits", thus establishing a pattern. Patterns are anti-RTPB.

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[pyro225]

NBK wrote:
"Fortunately, DVR's are still rather rare, and real time streaming of video feed to a remote host even more so. So, given the very low probability of remote storage, the destruction of the machine on site is of prime importance."

You'd be surprised. On site DVR's are now competitively priced with mid priced time-lapses. It's catching on quick! The remote video storage you speak of is I'm assuming what we call "remote video monitoring". Several national fast shit-food chains have been using this technology for a while - Taco Hell is a good example. The video is digitally recorded and stored on-site, but the DVR (a desktop PC with a fancy video input card and large hard-drive(s)) is connected to a phone line or WAN which is used for a remote station to connect to and view real time going's on. The very same idiots at fire and burglar alarm central stations can dial in to these locations and watch for employee "shrinkage", check on a burglar alarm, or just make sure Jose the fry cook isn't jacking off into the sour cream. A few chains that I know of have their corporate loss prevention "operatives" keep an eye on things this way. The technology is getting pretty efficient - the resolution and FPS is pretty impressive for 56k dial-up.

[nbk2000]

I'm glad someone is watching Jose the fry cook. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

One place I worked at (Circle K) had remote monitoring. Some company in texas would dial up (you could hear it sometimes through the intercom speakers) and ask us how things were going. The signs on the door told people that we were under audio AND video surveillance.

But, having talked to many of the people at the other end over the course of a year, I found out that it's only audio unless they get a hold up alarm call. THEN they'll dial in and download the last couple of minutes out of the video RAM buffer between the cameras and the tape VCR.

Continuous remote monitoring is both expensive, and tedious. Likely it'll only be done during a specific time period (thieving employee's shift), period of high risk, or in case of an alarm.

Though, the way technology gets cheaper, it'll likely be everywhere within 5 years, 10 at most. It'll take time to trickle down since most businesses don't upgrade non-profit generating equipment till it's too worn down to be repaired. At which time, they'll buy the cheapest POS they can find. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[pyro225]

Here's a little trade info you might find interesting. Time lapse VCR's retail anywhere between $500 and $1500. The main problem with these machines is tape wear. The life span of an average time-lapse, before the heads need to be cleaned and/or replaced, is 2 years. That is assuming the operator follows the installers instructions - 2 sets of 7 tapes, week 1 and 2, with one for each weekday. These tapes should be thrown out and replaced with new sets no less than once per year. Well guess what - they don't listen. 6 months after install, they complain about a stuck tape, crappy recorded images or a fried VCR. The same tape that was originally started in the machine is, lo and behold, still in there. The tape never gets changed. And once a tape is used more than about 15 or 20 times, it starts to flake off in the machine and damage the recording heads and moving parts. A cleaning/repair for this damage isn't covered by warranty and costs anywhere from $500 to $1000. Why repair when you can buy a new one? And now that DVR's can be had for $1000-$5000, have a much longer lifespan (even when operators are stupid and negligent), are more reliable, and give higher quality images, time lapse VCR repair is not so common.
I digress. The point is planned obsolescence is alive and well in electronic surveillance, and time lapse VCR's are very nearly obsolete.
And yes, I'm also glad someone is watching Jose the fry cook.
BTW - I grew up in your neck of the woods, NBK. Tornado capital of the world it is. In fact, my cousin and I naively chased the tornado that wandered around the outskirts Wichita, almost tossed B-1 bombers at McConnell and destroyed some of Andover. I think it was 1990 or 1991. We got to Andover about 5 minutes after it blew through the neighborhood and trailer park. Once you see that kind of destruction and carnage, one is no longer interested in seeing the beast itself. Sorry for the off topic comment, but everytime I see where you're from I think of that experience.

[Jacks Complete]

Just re-opening this old thread.

CCTV in the UK now demands clear signage wherever it is in use (everywhere!) giving the details of who to contact about it. The idea is it saves the cops a load of time getting contact details and tapes.

VCR timelapse is dropping out rapidly here, due to the new Data Protection Act requirements for tape re-use. You have to keep the tapes for a certain time, so you need 14 of them or more in a locked tape dispenser, and it costs you to keep giving these premium tapes to the cops.

For £50 you can get a motion sensitive CCTV capture card that takes 4 cameras, has remote access and back-up, and can be set up in any regular PC in ten minutes. If the police want a copy, you simply burn it to CD or DVD. This reduces the "costs of compliance" so far that many units are replaced with these before the normal end of life of the tape based systems.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/video/june/carparkAttack.wmv shows a modern CCTV system doing sod all in preventing an attack, despite the operator noticing something was happening even before the victim.

[JakeGallows]

I watched a tv show regarding crime in the UK and was lead to believe that prosecution useing these cameras is weak. They had one segment about a store-owner who was repeatedly robbed, who eventually installed a CCTV system (a nice one too) that captured the thieves fire-bombing his car. The video had them casing the neighborhood, fire-bombing his car and driving off + the license plate. No arrests have been made though the two men can be very clearly made out in the tape. (Perhaps he should have saved up and bought himself a shotgun instead? :D)

After watching that I began thinking about it, a number of cities including Chicago and now New Orleans have installed remotely monitored police-designated cameras. I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for anything seen on the tapes. In fact if I remember correctly there was a shooting in New Orleans captured on a carwash surveillance cam which led to no prosecution (despite another clear identification) until the media found out and raised hell.:rolleyes:

I'll wear the mask, but it's nice to know that LEO laziness continues to be an effective countermeasure to video surveillance.

[festergrump]

I'll wear the mask, but it's nice to know that LEO laziness continues to be an effective countermeasure to video surveillance.

RTPB, plan for failure. You should wear the mask plus utilize all other forensic escaping tactics or you might find Murphy's law providing you as the scale-tipping test case, thus proving the government's case for more cameras... "It works!", they'll argue.

Anyhow, it's funny you mention New Orleans and Chicago (two cities completely overrun with niggers, as most large cities are) as examples of cities in the US with cameras already in place yet with no known of convictions resulting...

As with any newly implemented method of crime control/prevention/evidence collection in the USA there needs to be at least an equal number of white people busted using the same method as black people or the niggers will cry racism, and usually WIN hands down by a jury of their "peers" (read: as many niggers as possible aboard to at least hang the jury in such a trial). It works for them more often than not and the government knows this. Maybe they're waiting for more white infractions as test-cases first, to see if jurys will convict on such digital (and not hard copy) evidence?

Interesting that these cities in the US have already adopted the Orwellian 'all seeing eye' much like that of the UK, though. I figured it was coming since the "traffic cams" in accident-prone intersections issuing tickets through the mail became popular just about everywhere in America, but didn't know it was steadily being attempted for other more criminal evidences also as of yet... soon, I reckon... very soon.

When in doubt, consult the RTPB.

[JakeGallows]

I'm not sure what you were getting at in the last post - I agree with you that you should cover your bases as per RTPB. I was simply pointing out that sometimes Murphy's law works for you - in that police/prosecutor laziness can hinder prosecution.

As for the usefulness of video surveillance I searched some more on Google and discovered some interesting tidbits including that the carwash shootout did indeed foster arrests. These arrests came within days, but prosecution decided it didn't have enough evidence. Within a few months the same guys were re-arrested on different charges or gave themselves up because the prosecutor decided that he actually did have a case.

The Chicago PD appears to have had some level of success with arrests, (see link below) with 76 arrests. Of course as New Orleans showed arrests mean nothing if not followed by prosecution. On the flip side the cameras reduced crime where they were placed.

Chicago Police Camera effectiveness:
http://www.rajivshah.com/camera/archives/chicago/

A look at the New Orleans car wash video system:
http://www.securitymagazine.com/CDA/Archives/1589d3dbe64d8010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

On another note, the "gunshot detection" system is an interesting feature. It basically incorporates microphones into the cameras that register and triangulate gun shot sounds providing the center of operations with a location for gunfire. Units are then dispatched. I hear that and I think: sounds like an easy way to get police dispatched to the location that I want them. All I have to do is make it sound like a bullet was fired...

[Jacks Complete]

Which, if you wanted to kill police, would be a very easy thing to do! Any sniper with a beef would have an easy time of it, if he used a decent killzone and limited the escape routes. I bet they would stop investigating quite so fast then.

[JakeGallows]

Or if you wanted to punish big brother without causing casualties you could shoot out the cameras. At $16K for first gen and $30K for second gen they make a very tempting target, though you'd want to be sure that you shot through the bulletproof dome... getting caught on film by the very camera you were trying to eliminate is bad form.

[w22shadow]

How thick is the protective-casing of most CCTV cabinets? I wonder if a "door-breaching round (http://www.cqbsupply.com/doorbreaching.html)" could be used to penetrate through and destroy the VCR. At the very least, it could be used to disable any lock on the device quickly.

[charger]

The rounds you linked to are not designed to go through doors and cause damage, but rather disintigrate in impact, so I don't think that they would be the best round for the job.

[tmp]

JakeGallows, I wonder if a laser would damage the CCDs in these cameras.
Direct sunlight can damage the CCDs of camcorders. It would give me
extreme pleasure to fry those money grabbing devices as well as piss off
the money grubbing politicians.