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View Full Version : Multi-Point Initiation and Asymetric Effects


nbk2000
July 27th, 2002, 05:00 AM
It's a well known fact that when two waves (of any type) interact, there'll be two types of interaction between the two, constructive interference, and destructive interference.

In our line of work, we're interested in the constructive, rather than the destructive (strange, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) type of interference.

It's constructive interference that comes into play with shaped charges of all types. Without it, we wouldn't have SC or LSCs of any sort.

Now, usually, we tend to think of explosions have a single source of initiation...the detonator. Usually this is fine. But, by expanding our thinking to more than one point of initiation, we greatly expand our abilities.

As an example, look at the design of anti-aircraft missle warheads. They're limited in size and weight, yet have to be able to effectively engage a target at great passing speeds and unknown orientation anywhere within a 360 degree sphere on all axis.

To address this problem, weapons designers have incorporated the multipoint initiation principle into warhead design.

In this picture we see the pressure contours immediately after a 3 point initiation. The initiation points are the top, center, and bottom on the left hand side. The target is on the right hand side, center.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Warhead1.gif" alt=" - " />

By the time the pressure waves have traveled to the target side, they have constructivly interfered with each other to form a broad, and nearly flat, pressure wave of greater intensity than any single initiation could generate. (Notice the band of red, as compared to the original yellow in the first picture)

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Warhead2.gif" alt=" - " />

The effect of this can be seen by the large area of red centered in a larger field of orange. Note how these colors are predominant on the target side, and nearly absent on the side where the initiations originated from.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Warhead3.gif" alt=" - " />

The sum effect of this can be seen in the dense ring of fragments with the highest velocity (red) fragments being present on only one side (asymetric).

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Warhead4.gif" alt=" - " />

This principle is also used in a patent for a MOUT weapon to blast mouseholes through reinforced concrete walls big enough for men to crawl through to assualt the enemy within.

In this case, a cylindrical charge of explosive is initated simultanously at both ends so that the wave fronts collide in the middle of the device, which is a machined cylinder of aluminium with a radially symetrical cavity in the center to provide a shaped charge effect.

The colliding waves expand out from the center in a radial manner, destroying the target wall from the inside.

Naturally, the question becomes one of how do we use this technique in our own experiments. Well, before you can run you have to learn how to walk, and before you can walk you have to crawl.

Meaning you have to first overcome the problem of making detonators that explode within a millisecond of each other. Because without such precisely synchronized intitiation, you'll not achieve the needed symetry.

Regular bridge-wire initators that use a hot nichrome wire to light up a pyrotechnic charge to set off the primary are unsuitable for this. There's too many variables in the design, even in carefully controlled factory conditions that the home experimenter could never hope to duplicate.

For the precise timing needed, an SCB (Semi-Conductor Bridge) initator is used, along with the capacitor bank and timing circuits to complete the device. But this is also expensive and complicated.

What's needed is a simpler way to duplicate the same principles without the high-end costs.

Fortunately, if you have det-cord, it's possible.

This is done by cutting precisly duplicate lengths of det-cord and attaching them to a central detonator. This way, the need for synchronization is removed since the det-cord will carry the explosive impulse to the secondary initiators in the device at the same time since they're of uniform length and velocity, and all using just one main detonator who's construction can be of simple design.

Since det-cord can be a pain to improvise, which also introduces variables of density and velocity which would ruin the whole point, we could borrow an idea from the electronics industry and lay down "traces" of explosive compositions (much the same as a circuit board) that would carry the impulse to the initiators.

For this purpose, I'm envisioning casting a sheet of explosive putty (PETN/Blu-tak binder) that will have a uniform density, and cutting out strips of the explosive to be layed out on the device and held in place with a coating of (paint/resin/whatever).

Because the "traces" were cast they'll be of uniform density and can be precisely measured and cut.

Another way would be to use tubes filled with a liquid explosive composition. Liquids are always of uniform density, thus removing that problem.

So, what purposes would you use the asymetric effect for?

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

xoo1246
July 27th, 2002, 05:07 AM
If you have lenghts of electrical cables, with the exact same resistance, all connected to a tyristor, powered by a several hundreds volt capacitor(with enough F to power them all), at the end of thease cables, a length of nicrome wire, all the same length and resistance in direct contact with the primary exlosive you wish to initate. Would this still not be accurate enough?

I like they idea of the layers, but the thickness of the casing must be large enough so that thease layers don't initate the explosive inside(doh).

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

xtreme
July 27th, 2002, 06:59 AM
Interesting subject !

I think it can be done with 3 det-cords to the charge.
The other side of the det-cord connected to blasting cap (all three in de middle of the blastingcap) outside of the charge.

I think there is noway to do the job with electronic components or ni-chroom wire in the charge. Electronic components what common people can buy are not as precies as military ones. And this components are way to expensive for us.

I know that HEAT's (High Explosive Anti Tank = SC) are ignited by a electric (chemical) batterie. I know this because I had learning to shoot with a "Dragon" what is a line-wired SC anti-tank weapon (what gives a nice blast b.t.w. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

How do they ignit the charge so fast when the SC hit's it target?
I know the front of the SC contains to metal plates that hits each other by impact so this is functioning as a switch.
I think they are using a explosive stuff what reacts (detonates) when there goes a electric pulse throw it (so...not a hot wire/component or somehing)

PYRO500
July 27th, 2002, 07:58 AM
This gives me an idea that sam barros from powerlabs was wroking on. He had some uniform strips of aluminum foil set up on a table and was using a fairly small capacitor bank to use them as exploding foil detonators and to in turn detonate nitromethane. This solves two problems at once the first being a way to detonate the substance immediately without delay. The second is to find a substance that is powerful enough to initiate the high explosives you are going to have reliably. I had the idea of using a detonator on a length of aquarium tubing as a detonator, any comments on that? as for the actual system you would most likely not want to just throw your device together. In this type of device you have to keep everything as consistant as possible.

BTW NBK whee did you get these pictures from? I'd be nice to have a pressure wave simulator but you probobly got them from a web site right?

nbk2000
July 27th, 2002, 08:14 AM
If one had the equipment for such precise measurements, than I think that'd work. The problem wouldn't be in designing the electronics for precision timing, but rather the caps. The delay between the cap receiving the impulse, and the cap detonating is what's going to fuck things up.

For the explosive traces, you'd need to see just how thin a trace you could get that would still reliably transmit an initiation. Also, you'd want to know how closely the traces could be laid to each other without sympathetic detonation. With thin traces laid closely together, you'd have more options as to layout and delays than thick traces far apart would allow.

I don't think that a thin trace on the outside of a weapon would have much effect as long as it couldn't penetrate the casing. Unless you're loading with NG or some other ridiculously sensitive explosive, a trace of only a few grams/foot isn't going to penetrate a couple of millimeters of steel or tough plastic. Only a millimeter or two of spacing would be needed to prevent this anyways. A sheet of foam would be more than sufficient.

Military ATMs usually use piezoelectric impact switchs coupled to SCB detonators. This is irrelevant to this discussion since that's a singular initiation. We're discussing multiple initiation points.

I got the pictures from an animated gif.

If someone could find a warez version of "Autodyne 3d" then we too could do such simulations. Now THAT'D be the shit to have! :D

There's several other programs out there that'll do hydrodynamic simulations such as this, but I've never been able to find a warez version. Maybe because they cost too much for anyone outside of industry to afford to buy, and they're too honest to do warez. :p

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

Eliteforum
July 27th, 2002, 08:53 AM
That Autodyne program is a little expensive! I did a quick google search:

"Autodyne ... 4152a AMT $26,646,090.00" I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

nbk2000
July 27th, 2002, 01:02 PM
After reviewing some patents, I found one that perfectly illustrates the uses of multipoint initiation.

US Patent #6220166

Using sheet explosive and styrofoam, you can cut nice clean holes through steel plate without any fragmentation because the steel is fracture cut and neatly peeled back, rather than blasted into little pieces of shrapnel.

But the whole effect is dependant on consistant multipoint initiation. Read up, has some good info about the principle.

pyromaniac_guy
July 27th, 2002, 05:22 PM
i have a wire bonder in my shop.. if someone wants to do the machine work to make up ebw's I'll put down the gold wire if yall can scrounge up enough green to buy a small spool or apriopriately sized wire (a few hundred bux would be enough for THOUSANDS of ebw's)

Jhonbus
August 23rd, 2002, 07:25 PM
This idea of using high current surges to vapourise metal strips is nice, but in practise (at least for us), there is a problem in that we probably want to re-use our detonation circuitry. The fast current risetimes needed mean that any sort of wiring longer than about a metre or two is going to have far too much impedance to the current surge. And that's assuming something like 1/2" solid copper bars.
Military applications don't have a problem because they don't mind spending thousands of dollars per weapon. I wouldn't like having to blow up an expensive SCR or lovingly-handcrafted trigatron every time I experiment.
How about initiating detonators with simple high-voltage sparks?

pyromaniac_guy
August 24th, 2002, 02:06 AM
jhonbus, then build the trigger cuircuit onto the back of the ebw... that would remove alot of the demands front he design of the firing cuircuit... I'm not suggesting that an ebw would be used for everyday detonation of 40g of ap, but just suggesting that it wouldnt be too hard to come up with some if one wanted to do some more exotic experiments with explosives..

nbk2000
August 24th, 2002, 04:58 AM
In the patent for the Javelin missile warhead, they use a sheet of plastic explosive cut into radial spokes (185) to initiate detonator pellets of RDX (190) set in the perimeter of the warhead to create multiple fragments from the warhead liner.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/spoked_initiation.gif" alt=" - " />

The white disc on which the spokes are sitting on is a polymeric plate (styrofoam) of sufficient thickness to prevent premature sympathetic detonation of the main charge (184).

The central detonator (88) explodes a few milliseconds before the detonator pellets do, liquifying the liner just before the multiple shockwaves from the periphery intersect and break it into pieces. The number of pieces equals the number of detonators on the rim.

They achieve this timing by simply cutting the spokes to appropriate lengths. The RDX explodes at around 9.2mm/microsecond. So, for a 10 microsecond delay, you need spokes 92mm long.

One could simplify this design by using a single sheet without bothering to cut/cast spokes. The spokes are just to save weight in the warhead. Though you'd require a thicker styrofoam sheet because the total explosive weight would be higher.

Jhonbus
August 24th, 2002, 10:29 AM
Pyromaniac Guy: I know it's not overly difficult to come up with a firing system, but my qwalm was with blowing it up when the explosive detonates. The spoke/trace system seems like a much better idea to me, even though it is slighly limited against the EBW design. (you can have detonations literally anywhere within the explosive with the EBW, without worrying about delays due to the lengths of traces and accidental detonation. Having traces running below the surface of explosive is also not really practical, as this would interfere with the density and refractive characteristics of the cast. EDIT: Thinking about it, wires to the EBW dets would also interfere, but I don't think as much as a hollow styrofoam tube.)

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Jhonbus ]</small>

xoo1246
October 13th, 2002, 07:34 AM
Too little discussion on this subject.

About exploding foil initiators, we know they use thousands of volts.
They use such a high voltage to be able to initite secondaries.
I'm interested in if it is possible to use hundreds of volts instead
and initiate primaries. Ofcourse it's no problem initiating the primary but what happens to the timing between multiple wires.
When you send 300 volts through a thin foil it get vaporized and explodes with a loud report. But what if you use two wires with similar resistance, what is the maximum delay between their disintegration.
Testing this could be done by filling a plastic straw with a primary and initiate it from both ends and look for signs of colliding shockwaves. I know there are people at this boards who have capacitators that can handle thousands of volts....
And NBK, here is a patent you might be interested in:
3,325,317
Also there are other ways of making a container break up a certain point, using wave shaping. An example of wave shaping for SC:s.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/wave.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/wave.jpg</a>

nbk2000
October 13th, 2002, 09:22 AM
Oh...good patent.

Lead azide is easy enough to make, and I'm sure you could probably substitute silicon caulking or liquid latex for all the complicated polymers.

Another interesting thing mentioned was the light sensitive nature of the LA film to intense light from an argon bomb (AKA "Isotropic Radiator") or laser. The possibility of using a xenon photo strobe as a light speed multi-point initiator opens up.

Multiple traces of LA film could be intiated simultaniously by flashing them with a cheap thrift store flash lamp. Or, if you can find them, magnesium flashcubes.

Also, I just thought of using an explosively driven rare earth magnet being "shot" through a tube wound with copper wire. When a magnet passes through a coil, it generates voltage. I don't know if that has to do with magnetic intensity, or the speed it passes through. If speed, then a magnet going at several Km/s should generate quite a wallop.

Also, what patent # is that image of the SC taken from? I tried several variations on the number at the USPTO site, but nothing relevant came up.

<small>[ October 13, 2002, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

xoo1246
October 13th, 2002, 09:40 AM
Oh, I'm an elite patent searcher. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> No, seriously, there is a good way of searching patent by subject, that way you can find patents that don't have full text.
Here is the link: <a href="http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/selectnumwithtitle.htm" target="_blank">http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/selectnumwithtitle.htm</a>
You use advanced search and type in CCL/Class/SubClass
Class being one nr say 102
and SubClass being another say 307
Then you type in CCL/102/307.
I have around 52 patents of interest coverted to pdf:s currently. I'll upload them anytime soon, my connection is slow though.
Check patent 5,259,317 in the meantime.

What about the low voltage exploding foils? Seems as no one can answer it, I have posted it to many forums, but everywhere no reply.

<small>[ October 13, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

Boob Raider
October 13th, 2002, 11:11 AM
I think it is possible .... if you take one of those 20V, 1F caps used in car stereos. No wait maybe it will just weld, although I have heard stories of students taking legs of chairs with that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . If you are using low voltage caps, you need very thin wire, as the rate of charge dumping is proportional to the voltage of the cap, and the current in the circuit is proportional to the rate. So if the current is low .... you'd need to up the resistance of the wire ...... make it thin. 36 gauge or thiner, i.e if you want the wire to explode, otherwise thicker,low resistance stuff will just damage the terminals. Copper works great with a bank of 18 photoflash caps from disposable cameras. 330V and 130uF. Banked in parallels. :p

nbk2000
October 15th, 2002, 02:09 PM
That waveformer patent gave me an idea. (I'm just full of 'em! :D )

In the patent, they use rare earth metals pressed with halogenated polymers like teflon or PVC to make the incendiary waveformer.

Well...what if you made a wax or plaster mold of the waveformer shape you desired, and sprinkled in lighter flints/magnesium shavings into Great-Stuf expanding weather sealant foam as you sprayed it into the mold?

It's polyurethane, which may not be suitable as an oxidizer, but it would certainly hold the flints in place.

See, when you make a shaped charge, uniformity of the explosive is a key aspect of the design. Adding flints into explosive creates random pockets of differing densities which would cause a disruption of the shockwave, resulting in randomly colliding wavefronts on the SC liner, which would result in failure to form a jet.

But, by putting the incendiary behind the wavefront, you still get the benefit without the failure.

Simpler still would be to make a sandwich out of thin sheets of Teflon/PVC/styrofoam (in order of preference), with the metal powder/flints layed in between, then gluing and pressing together to form a coherent form.

Simplist of all, glue the flints to the face of the styrofoam block furthest from the detonator. It'll get heated white-hot by the explosion, yet still be out of the way of the wave formation.

nbk2000
August 2nd, 2007, 10:11 AM
Found this:

US Patent 5050503 - Selectively Aimable Warhead Initiation System

Describes in detail the construction of logic circuits using sheet explosive, to perform the functions of diodes, AND/OR/NAND, rectifiers, etc., all for the purposes of explosively deforming the warhead to most optimally direct the fragmentation at the target.

I wonder what other uses such an explosive 'circuit' could be used for.

LibertyOrDeath
August 4th, 2007, 07:10 AM
I'm currently trying to expand my knowledge in this field, and I recently read the following passage in a book that I suppose most here are already familiar with:

From The Chemistry Of Powder And Explosives, by T.L. Davis, p. 20:

Advantage is taken of the Munroe effect in the routine blasting of oil wells, and, intentionally or not, by every explosives engineer who initiates an explosion by means of two or more electric blasting caps, fired simultaneously, at different positions within the same charge.

It's interesting that the author claims this, as my intuition tells me that the concerns expressed on this thread regarding the difficulty of synchronized electrical timing are spot-on. The author makes it sound almost trivial to get two ordinary blasting caps to initiate a charge nearly simultaneously!

Has anyone considered whether some kind of electromechanical initiation system might improve timing synchronization? Some mechanical devices, such as firearms triggers, have a "lock time" on the order of a millisecond. I don't see why that couldn't be improved upon and extended to the firing of detonators. Perhaps an electrical signal could be used to trigger a relay or other switch that would, in turn, mechanically initiate the explosive by impact? That would at least remove the delay in initiation due to the time it would take for a bridge wire to heat up.