new top secret explosive - Archive file

[megalomania]

Ctrl_C
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posted February 06, 2001 04:48 PM
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alright...my dad is VP of a company that gets subcontracted by the military to build missle guidence system test equipment. they are currently working on bits and pieces of the missle defense project in the U.S.. He has some classified info clearance (not top secret, but sensitive info nonetheless) and he said that as part of the MDP, they were developing an explosive that was so powerful, that when used in an atomic bomb, sends enough neutrons from the light elements into the plutonium to completely vaporize all remnants of the bomb, leaving only trace amounts of neutrons behind. one of the proposed plans is that they just get a missle armed with a this warhead within a couple miles of an ICBM and then detonate it, killing the ICBM and leaving no fallout or trace that it ever happened.
the new explosive is called "red mercury". i asked him if it was just mercury fulminate and he said no. obviously there isnt much info on it since its top secret, but keep an eye out for info. i'll post more if i find anything out.


endotherm
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From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 06, 2001 05:23 PM
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i hate to say this, but im not really believin' this whole Top Secret James Bond dad type thing, and if this was a serious top secret government project, i would expect you and your entire family to dissappear within the week, Just Joking


Anthony
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posted February 06, 2001 05:37 PM
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A fall out free nuke? Sounds like something from fiction to me. So how is it supposed to work?


Ctrl_C
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posted February 06, 2001 07:44 PM
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dont believe me...its not my loss. i can tell you a little more though if it helps.
he is vice president and general manager of the east coast operation of a company called carco.

<a href="http://carco-east.com" target="_blank">http://carco-east.com</a>

they design, build, and refurb 5 and 6 axis test simulators that test how well a piece of software or hardware will preform under simulated conditions.

they have been working with several aerospace companies (including boeing i think) and the military to the MDP. they dont deal with the explosive aspect of it, just the testing for the guidence systems.

he just heard about it through work. he nor i know how it works and we would probably be running like hell if we did. i thought it was just an interesting rumor that if proven true, could be good for the E&W community.


endotherm
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From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 06, 2001 07:59 PM
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k, i kind of believe you now
BUT&gt;&gt;&gt;I know this is like a "Kurt Saxon, Kill the Aliens Conspiracy" type thing but if this is all true,and this is actually semi-topsecret, i would nto go posting your dads company and occupation and telling us enough information to basically figure out who your dad is, i really would not go around telling your dad is giving away militiary secrets...


Ctrl_C
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posted February 06, 2001 08:09 PM
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heh, wow fast reply. i thought about that but its the only way i can give any kind of proof at all and what are they gonna do...kill m...(Ctrl_C suddenly drops dead in front of his computer, taking a fatal sniper hit to the head)
no...in all honesty....i dont care if anyone knows who i am. i could tell you my real name if you'd like. i have absolutely nothing to hide...no priors, nothing illegal, maybe conspiracy to commit terroristic acts but thats about it.

on a side note...i went to his ooffice last week because i had a orthodontist appointment early in the morning and i was given the grand tour of the assembly warehouse...they have some cool stuff there. computers with digital signal processors, cool 5 axis machines that would be cool to strap yourself to like those gyro things at fairs and such, a really neat freedom fighter from hungary, 200 CFM air compressors for air bearings...all kindsa neat stuff for me to get into trouble with.

[This message has been edited by Ctrl_C (edited February 06, 2001).]


PYRO500
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Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 08:13 PM
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I want to know your name


Anthony
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From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 08:17 PM
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Unless your dad knows how it works, I don't think he's in any danger of dissapearing.


Ctrl_C
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posted February 06, 2001 09:53 PM
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Osama bin Laden


PYRO500
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Posts: 1474
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 06, 2001 09:56 PM
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wow! your a son of one of Saudi Arabias wealthiest families and are related with several extermist groups!


Microtek
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posted February 07, 2001 11:39 AM
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I remembered reading a short article in New Scientist ( 29. april 1995 ) about red mercury, so I re-read it and here is what I found:
Red mercury is a compound surrounded by a lot of uncertainties. It is said to be made of pure mercury and mercury antimony oxide
(Hg2Sb2O7), it is not a chemical explosive but neither is it a true nuclear explosive.
It's production is said to involve irradiation in a nuclear reactor for 20 days and the product is supposed to be gel-like or semi-liquid and cherry-red.
The material is referred to as 'ballotechnic'
which means that it releases energy after having received a shock, and that this energy 'can be greater than with high explosives'. Some researchers claim that red mercury 'detonates' with enough force to cause deuterium and tritium to undergo nuclear fusion without the need for an initiating fission-bomb.
One source in the article implies that red mercury, if it exists, would be five orders of magnitude more powerful than TNT.
That's a hundred thousand times. Personally, I think this implication is a misinterpretation by the journalist, but I'm only guessing.
As far as I know, the existence of ongoing research into red mercury has been denied by the CIA, whereas the Russians claim to be producing 60 kilograms of it per year.


vehemt
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From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 07, 2001 12:42 PM
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Yep, there is some big assed story attached to red mercury. Do a search and you will find all kinds of crazy stuff.


SofaKing
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From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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posted February 07, 2001 12:55 PM
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Microteck beat me to it. Yes red mercury is supposed to be one component of neutron bombs, that uses a high pulse of neutron radiation to kill instead of heat and blast. Do a search for it on google (http://www.google.com) I'm sure you'll find something.
I did the search and found some pages <a href="http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/afuture/1195af04.txt" target="_blank">http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/afuture/1195af04.txt</a> <a href="http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/USENET-news/red-mercury" target="_blank">http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/USENET-news/red-mercury</a>

I don't know if what these sites say is true or not.

[This message has been edited by SofaKing (edited February 07, 2001).]


atropine
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From: wales
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 07, 2001 01:20 PM
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sorrey to drop the mood ctrl_c. but surely if ur dad finds that you have bin spreading this round (it bieng top secret and all) he is gonna seriously kick ur ass. And if any one else werks out that the son of someone of that company that has acces to this info sees it, ur dad could lose his job, maybe even get prosecuted.
again much appolagising.


Ctrl_C
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posted February 07, 2001 05:50 PM
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Microtek: thats kinda how my dad explained it although not nearly as thouroughly. thanks for the contribution.
atropine: i'm in the clear. the info wasnt acquired with abuse of classified info clearance (as i said, they dont deal with any of the explosives parts), it was just a rumour that was circulating around the office that he heard of. apparently it has some merit. as for them using it in the MDP, i think that the issue wouldnt have resurfaced if it wasnt a possibility to be used and besides that, it is rather plausible and practical to just detonate a nuke in proximity to the ICBM rather than try to hit it dead on with a missle equiped with a depleted uranium core. use the analogy of trying to hit a bullet with a bullet. hitting a bullet with another bullet is hard, but blowing the bullet of course if not into oblivion is more practical.


PHILOU Zrealone
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From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
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posted February 16, 2001 09:26 AM
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This story is a joke organised by the russians and all the europeans and the americans have falled into the trap.
Now I have some contacts with a french guy called Henry L. and he told some incredible stuffs about this! He even told me an incredible story about pumping the energy from the vaccuum...new russian war thechnologies are based on those ideas and thermodynamic of Prigogyne and mathematics of ...(shit I don't remember the name: complex numbers used in quantum mecanics).
Following him a 1kg bloc of porrous ultrafine Al powder with TNT and XXX + an electronic excitator can give as much power as 50 tonns of TNT !!!!SIC
But I never understand completely the physic behind- on a chemical point of view it is impossible (but I'm not a physician nor a specialist in fusion)
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"


HMTD Factory
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posted February 16, 2001 01:31 PM
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Go to the site provided by SofaKing.
<a href="http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/USENET-news/red-mercury" target="_blank">http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/USENET-news/red-mercury</a>
and you will know what I am refering to.

Although a polymer of sulphur and nitrogen is
known to be explosive, I don't think someone
can manipulate the inner electron shells via
exposing material under radiations.

You can't jazz up electron shells to a higher energy state just by random, uncontrolled radiation bombardment.

I guess the "super powerful" explosive mentioned by Ctrl_C's dad is a nuclear explosive. Only nuclear explosive gives out
neutrons after reaction.


Ctrl_C
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posted February 17, 2001 08:31 PM
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alright guys...i'm being totally serious here.
i just found something out and i cant say what but all i can say is dont do searches for RM. dont even refer to it using its full name.

i dont know if you believe me or not but trust me, it would be in your best interest not to.


BoB-
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posted February 17, 2001 11:50 PM
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I would just like to say that the government is the best thing ever, and is only filled with the most experienced, trustworthy people that this great nation has to offer.
(everyone wave to the feds reading this *hi!*)


vehemt
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From: Canada
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posted February 18, 2001 01:04 AM
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*lifts middle finger from a closed fist*


Muffscre's digits
A new voice
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From: surrey,BC Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 18, 2001 03:02 AM
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How can a neutron kill if thay are if thay are not positively or negativelly charged.
You can only find a neutron in the nucleus of an atom thay do not flow from one atoms shell to the next like an electron
(negativelly charged)


PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted February 18, 2001 03:10 AM
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when a neutron is forced free of the nucleus it will strike your molecules with a great speed witch can cause dna damage and at high levels instantanious death although I dont think neutron bombs hit you with neutrons just beta and gamma rads


Anthony
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posted February 18, 2001 11:06 AM
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Alpha and beta radiation are actual particles aren't they? So what are they?
As I understand it, radiation actually knocks bits out of the DNA contained within the nucleus of a cell. If the cell survives, it is a mutant and multiples to form more mutant cells - cancer. Higher level radiation will just plain kill the cell, which would actually be more beneficial since you wouldn't get cancer.

Ctrl_C, from here it sounds like you're being a *tad* paranoid. I really don't think your government is going to kill people for reading vauge, questionable information printed in a popular, widely distributed magazine.

To me, red mercury sound like something you'd read in the anarchist crapbook, look at the synthesis: just mix two chemicals together, leave in a nuclear reactor for a while, you now have an explosive 100 000 times more powerful than TNT!!!


Jhonbus
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posted February 18, 2001 12:23 PM
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Alpha partiles are helium 4 nuclei (2 protons, 2 neutrons) that travel at high speed, They aren't really dangerous unless you eat an alpha emitter though because they are stopped easily by the outer layer of skin, which is dead anyway. They could give you catarcts though, if they shine on your eyes.
Beta particles are rapidly moving (9/10 speed of light) electrons. These penetrate a bit so could give you skin cancer.

Gamma rays are juss very short wavelength photons, lots of energy, can go right through you not causing any damage, or might get stopped, which could cause some damage.

Neutrons are pretty nasty, and they do cause a lot of damage. They are easily absorbed by water, (80% of human body!), which then emits lower energy (thermal) neutrons which can combine with other atoms to screw you up in a multitude of ways. Neutrons are usually the cause of death in nuclear accidents, like what happened in Tokaimura a couple of years ago, with the accidental addition of a critical mass of Uranium in a bucket of water and nitric acid. This emitted a huge blast of neutrons, ionising the air and the people in the room, burning them right through. If they had lived they would have been 100% cancer anyway.
Other accidents like this have happened, one that springs to mind is a professor who was working alone in a lab, and he placed a plate of copper on a subcritical mass of plutonium. The resulting increase in neutron density in the plutonium caused fission, which again, sprayed out a ton of neutrons. He didn't die straight away, only a week or two later, in agony. The thing that amazes me about this is that when this happened, he stayed completely calm and drew on the floor with chalk to show where he was standing, and documented what had happened so people could learn from his mistake.


HMTD Factory
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posted February 18, 2001 02:02 PM
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Gamma ray is dangerous.
Unlike charged particles, gamma ray will not
bent(up or down) due to magnetic field of earth.

Modern brain surgery uses focusd gamma ray to precisely kill all malign tissue in an area
without opening the skull.


Ctrl_C
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posted February 19, 2001 12:35 PM
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Anthony: not paranoid at all...this is the proverbial "stranger than fiction"
i'll tell you all about it but only through encrypted mail. i am in the process of telling Pyro500 as soon as i can access my mail server.


Jhonbus
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posted February 19, 2001 03:21 PM
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Have you got PGP?
If you have, will you send me the info too? You can get my key in zipped .asc format at <a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/Jhonbus.zip" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/Jhonbus.zip</a>
If you send the info, send it to jhonbus@hotmail.com

Thanks
Hmm, Doesn't seem to be downloading off geoshities. I emailed it to you.

[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited February 19, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jhonbus (edited February 19, 2001).]


SofaKing
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From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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posted February 19, 2001 09:20 PM
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MeThink BigBrother is Doubleplusgood and make me bellyful. You crimethinker ungood to the gulag !


rjche
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posted February 20, 2001 07:55 PM
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If I read this thread right, a fellow has told us his dad has a security clearance, and his dad has told him classified information.
He then posts it on this forum where his particular account with an IP provider can easily be determined.

He then says his dad holds a particular high level job with a certain type defense contractor, and then gives a name of some contractor.

If true his dad is due for a knock on the door any day, for it is a serious federal crime to reveal classified scuttlebutt to anyone without a clearance AND approved need to know.

The mere fact he has said this will cause an investigation of him even if it is not true.

This forum is tight, I mean if you try even to read it through a cyberpunk annonimizer it won't let you in. That means the host checks IP headers for validity before you log on.

Does this sound like a story to believe? Would anyone be likely to get themselves a for sure investigation by an agency that does not give a hoot about your guilt or about evidence, because they have their own witnesses and evidence if they get a hard on for you.

I have doubts about the story.

As for Red mercury, it has been discussed for years, but no evidence of it ever having been used has turned up. Also no evidence has surfaced in the legitimate science circles that such a thing exists. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but with all the talk about it running back several years, the non classified physics researchers would have pounced on it and been discussing its properties etc, not as an explosive but as a fusion inducer.

There are statements in the story that are incredible. Fire off a nuke of any type and not be aware it was done? Even if all the energy was released as neutrons, the effect on the environment would significant. All water would thermalize the fast neutrons to lethal slow ones, as would water in trees and animals. Everyone would likely die. That would be noticed.

I think I must remain a disbeliever.

[Kevnadian]

i did a google search for 'red mercury' (as SofaKing suggested) and i found an article from prisonplanet.com linking iraq to red mercury.

<a href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_poovey_122602_redmerc.html" target="_blank">http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_poovey_122602_redmerc.html</a>

given the sites nature a lot of the stuff is probably just fearmongering and conspiracy theorizing, but the yanks and brits do seem kinda eager to get that guy outta power don't they.

[kryfo]

Hello. I am a new member to this forum, and actually this is my first post.

I hope I can clarify some physics matters discussed in this thread.

First of all, Ctrl_C's father probably just has confidential clearance, if that, which for informational purposes is the lowest form of clearance (from lowest to highest, confidential -&gt; secret -&gt; top secret), and I DO know what I am talking about. Which means he doesn't know didley about anything truly secret. As Ctrl_C mentioned, just rumors. And subcontractors DO NOT have access to information that does not pertain directly to what they are manufacturing!

Second, NO conventional explosive can cause nuetrons to be emitted! This is total BS. The fallout of any nuclear explosion CANNOT be neutralized by any conventional or nuclear process currently known to nuclear physics (reason is, any irradiation that would cause the decay of radioactive isotopes to non-radioactive, would probably also cause some non-radioactive isotopes to become radioactive). If any such process were known, then the nuclear waste disposal problem would be solved! (this is not absolutely true, but I won't go into details).

Further clarification, a conventional explosive releases energy from the interatomic bonds of the molecules from which it consists, either the breaking of high energy bonds into lower energy ones or the formation of low energy bonds from the separate components. Any type of nuclear explosive releases energy from the internuclear bonds, either due to the strong force or the weak force of the nuclues. Thus, how could the electromagnetic forces of a conventional explosive affect the internuclear forces of other atoms to cause the release of neutrons!?! (anybody who knows even the rudiments of nuclear physics knows why the exclamation points).

Third of all, neutron bombs do not exist for certain (there was a lot of R&D on creating one in the seventies, but there is no documented testing of one, and the government denies ever having produced a deployable one). And neutron bombs do not kill by gamma radiation and alpha and beta particles (although those three contribute as well), but primary through the release of neutrons.

As for the clarification of radiation damage to living tissues. The most damaging radiation IS neutrons. Then high energy gamma radiation, then beta particles (either electrons or positrons), then alpha particles. Neutrons are so damaging because they do not have an electromagnetic charge, and thus can travel freely through the body, mostly doing damage directly to the nucleasus of atoms or much less so through the weak interaction "reacting" with electrons, thus ionizing atoms. The other forms of radiation do damage mostly due to the ionization of atoms in the body, creating free radicals (and thus runaway reactions). BTW, if a source of alpha radiation is ingested or respirated (as from fallout), then alpha radiation is more damaging then all others except neutrons. Furthermore, gamma radiation is highly absorbed by the body, doing extensive damage to the deep tissues.

You can "jazz up" electrons to higher energy shells in an organized manner, and the result is a LASER, not any kind of explosive!!!

On the government watching people, if Ctrl_C's father did have access to truly sensitive information, and had "top secret" clearance, he would be continuously watched: his phone and other forms of communication would be monitored. And I DO know what I am talking about! (and I am not going to clarify what I mean by DO know).

My personal opinion on Red Mercury is that it's conspiracy theory BS!

If anyone would like any further clarifications on any of the above, feel free to ask or contact me.

Finally, just for the record, I would like to note that I am majoring in Physics, specifically going into Theoretical Physics.

Respectfully,
kryfo

[Marvin]

Nice rant. You dont belive in quiet entrances I can see.

A few issues I think need clarifying, mainly becuase I'm having a bad day.

If you jazz up the inner electron shells of atoms you have a population inversion, to get a laser you usually need additional things going on, but point taken. More importantly though, you can make explosives out of stable substances chemically in a nuclear reactor, though the substances produced cannot be liquids. Nuclear reactors can produce materials with highly disrupted lattice structures that could theoretically yeild more energy than most conventional explosives do, though not I think by much. This was a particular problem in graphite moderated reactors, and they needed periodic operation at high temperatures to release the energy.

How dangerous neutrons are depends a lot on the energy they have, intrinsically they are not very hazardous and the fact they usually sail through human beings than interact often makes them less dangerous per partical than either alpha or beta (as far as internal exposure goes). The nature of fission is to produce very high energy (and therfore very dangerous) neutrons and neutron heavy fragments with miniscule neutron capture cross sections and you are right in that there is no way of using a conventional reactor to destroy these. Nor is it likley any fast reactor process could breakeven in terms of waste. Bombs are too chaotic to even think about nuclear processes to destroy waste, though people have suggested adding materials that form short halflife isotopes on neutron irradiation to sterilise areas with or without affecting buildings. Neutron bombs are a hack and the only requirement is they produce enough of a bang to prevent the recovery of unused fuel, how well they work, or how useful they might be is another matter entirly.

I understand what you are saying about bond energies, but it reads incorrectly as most people would follow it. All chemical reactions produce energy by making bonds. All chemical explosives operate at a net gain by making stronger bonds than they break. Technically this is the formation of bonds of a lower energy state, but this is confusing terminology, and best avoided. Not here but in the archives are specific mentions of energy coming from the breaking of bonds as in the breaking of the carbon carbon bonds in copper acetylide, which is simply not true and since its relavent to the discussion, I'm including it. Breaking a bond never releases energy, if the situation was that this could be the case, the bond would never form in the first place. Ignoring the rare case of stable radicals or transient species, chemical reactions always have the same number of total bonds, before as after. This is not always true theoretically, but its virtually always true practicaly. (Ok, I'm in for it now, this thread will probably fill up with exeptions, but if this happens I'll get a kick out of reading them).

Thinking of nuclear weapons as producing energy through formation of net stronger internuclear bonds is a good method, and much better than handwaving around E=MC^2 which is universal and applies equally well to chemical as nuclear explosives.

My understanding of the red mercury incident, is not that anyone in the military was worried about any new properties, but that it was simply a concern that the term might be a code name for the black market sale of fissionable isotopes. The additional magic properties were almost certainly deliberate misinformation on the part of someone, probably the military. Red mercury blew up much better in the media than it ever would in reality, in some countries this would be considered irony (Christ, a joke, wonders will never cease).

[Microtek]

The articles I read did link the dangers of red mercury with man portable nuclear bombs, but not because the material itself was supposed to be some hybrid and thus able to emmit neutrons. It was simply supposed to be powerful enough to compress hydrogen isotopes ( I think; it may have been fissionables ) to such a degree that nuclear processes could take place.

[Mr Cool]

OT, but this thread reminded me of it: In a recent New Scientist mag, there was an article about nuclear powered air drones. They were thinking of using a hafnium isotope, who's gamma activity increased when irradiated with X-rays, and fell again when the irradiation stopped. That is, as far as I'm aware, the only example of any sort of accelerated nuclear decay/rearrangement.

"Ignoring the rare case of stable radicals or transient species, chemical reactions always have the same number of total bonds, before as after... Ok, I'm in for it now, this thread will probably fill up with exeptions, but if this happens I'll get a kick out of reading them."

Lol, you asked for it! Actually, I'm not sure if this is right, so please correct if not...

N₂ + 2 O₂ --&gt; 2 NO₂
N#N + 2 O=O --&gt; 2 O-N=O (2 O=N=O??)
7 bonds --&gt; 6 bonds (8 bonds??)

[nbk2000]

From The Militarily Critical Technologies List, Section 2—Armaments and Energetic Materials Technology

++++++++++++++++++

The second set of materials is the so-called nuclear isomer materials, which have the theoretical potential for
100 to 1,000 times the energy density of conventional energetic chemical compounds. These materials are of two
varieties: shape isomers and spin isomers. In both types, energy is released in the form of gamma rays when the
nuclei of the material transition from a higher energy state to a lower.

Primarily Hf₁₇₈, but other compounds, such as Os₁₈₇, Yt₁₈₆, Ta₁₈₀, and Zn₆₆, have been
discussed as possibilities.

In theory, isomer HEDMs have potential energy yields orders of magnitude greater than existing chemical
energetics. While the development of useful propellants, explosives, or energy sources based on this phenomenon is
probably decades away, such extraordinary energy density has the potential to revolutionize all aspects of warfare.
Potential applications range from very high-density energetics for propulsion and warheads to high-energy and
power density primary sources to address requirements for EM launchers and all-electric propulsion.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

What do you have to say on that then? :p

[Microtek]

It never ceases to amaze me that so many of my peers haven't learned that you shouldn't invoke the word "impossible" - there are so many cases in history where some great thinker has made a fool of himself ( in the eyes of posterity ) by claiming that something is impossible when it isn't.
I thought everybody knew the claims of Lord Kelvin;
- Flying machines heavier than the air are impossible !
- X-rays are a hoax !
- The wireless ( radio ) has no future !

[kryfo]

Hmmm... Points mostly well taken.

First off, Marvin's comments I do agree with, although I do have a few remarks on them. Since you are talking about disrupted lattice structures, you are of course discussing crystal structures, which of course only occur in solids, so obviously liquids could not be used (I do not know if liquid crystals could be an exception, but that is a detail). On the relative danger of the various forms of radiation, what I did not go on to explain was that the relative danger has much to do with the penetrative ability of the various forms of radiation, neutrons and gamma rays being able to penetrate deeper than alpha or beta. Alpha actually are the most damaging per particle, but unless emmitted from material internally, their penetrative ability is so low, that they do not pose a relatively high danger. I am actually a bit too lazy to go look into the literature (and go into details), unless someone really wants me to. As for my terminology on bond energy, even as I was writing it, I thought it might confuse some people. As for breaking a bond not ever producing energy, although I can't think of a practical example, theoretically I can think of situations where a bit of energy added can induce the breaking of a bond resulting in more energy release than was input, without the formation new bonds per se (perhaps here I am influenced too much by nuclear fission, where bonds are broken but new ones are not really formed, although this is really a simplification of what happens in the nucleus). Might Nitrogen Tri-iodide be such an example? (I do not know enough chemistry to be able to determine myself without a bit of research, which I am too lazy to do at this instant).

Mr. Cool and nbk2000, both of you are actually referring to the same phenomenon, which I must admit did not occur to me as I was writing my previous post. Basically, nuclear isomers are the various arangements of the nucleons in an atom. I first of all must say that I do not really know Quantum Chromodynamics to be able to give a full and reliable answer, but here's my two bits worth. One theory, or rather interpertation, of the nucleus has it that the nucleons have energy shells much as the electrons in the outer atom. Thus, the nucleons can be raised to a higher energy state (higher energy shell), but the difference between energy states in the nucleus is much higher than the difference between energy shells of electrons in the atom, and the higher energy states in the nucleus can be made much more stable and with a much longer half-life than in the electron analogy. Spin isomerism is just this difference in energy between different spin states of the nucleons, and shape isomerism has to do with the positions of the nucleons. When the nucleons thus change energy state (fall from a higher energy shell to a lower one), photons are emmitted, just as when an electron fall from a higher energy shell to a lower one, just that in this case the photon is a very high energy gamma photon.

Now my personal opinion (together with the disclaimer that I have not finished my degree in physics yet, and thus do not really KNOW QCD and such), I can see the application of such an effect in the creation of a laser-like device, although as yet there is no easy and reliable way to induce the excitation of such nucleuses in relatively large quantities of atoms, that I know of at least. Also, although the release of stored energy is easily induced via irradiation with X-rays, the release of energy is in the form of very high energy gamma rays only. Thus its application as a radiation weapon is possible (much as a neutron bomb), but I do not see how it could be used as a device similar to a conventional or nuclear bomb (shockwave, thermal radiation, heat, etc.). Finally, although materials using such a principle for energy storage do have quite a high density of energy storage, with our current technology it is quite difficult to convert high energy gamma radiation into usable energy for propulsion or electricity. Scientists have actually started studying such effects with the isotopes nbk2000 mentions pretty much in the last decade, meaning any usefull application, even as a weapon, IS decades away. Finally, on the matter of red mercury, I do not think that an effective or efficient way of raising the nucleons to higher energy states would be to irradiate the material in a nuclear reactor (this, from what I have read, but I could be wrong), even if mercury isotopes were ones under consideration for such a use. :cool:

[matjaz]

> just for the record, I would like to note that I am majoring in Physics,
> specifically going into Theoretical Physics.

No need to tell us that you plan to be a theoretician. We can tell it from your style. :)

As for radiation damage. Neutrons are dangerous because they translate into charged particle radiation once in the tissue. Since they penetrate, this happens inside the body, unlike with external alpha or beta sources.

A typical reaction is (n,p). So it's not the neutron "screwing up" the nucleus that would be problematic. Only a few atoms would change this way. It's the knocked-out proton that is screwing up the electronic neighborhood on its way, breaking thousands of bonds for each neutron absorbed! So neutron damage is very similar to internal alpha (inhaled, ingested, etc...).

[Hystrix]

Heh-heh :). People you can relax. Red mercury is a myth. And nothing more...

[ozz]

Maybe Ctrl_c is not refering to red mercury, but instead the collapse of Dueterium soaked Titanium through some explosive procedure (shaped charges, or lens implosion).

Supposedly this can release vast amounts of nuetrons, but I have never actually done this myself.

++++++

Red mercury is like the Alchemists Stone...a non-existant amulet of power. :rolleyes: NBK

[inventorgp]

NBK, I think you need to extrapolate abit more.

Mercury + urine + earth, fire, water, wind = Red mercury

OH NO... my secret!!! :p


Interesting read tho.

[Bluebottle]

And aether!

Maybe Ctrl_c is not refering to red mercury, but instead the collapse of Dueterium soaked Titanium through some explosive procedure (shaped charges, or lens implosion).

Supposedly this can release vast amounts of nuetrons, but I have never actually done this myself.


I was under the impression it was palladium, not titanium... Or is that cold fusion? In any case, it seems like it would work - titanium can absorb deuterium to a degree - but why should that catalyse any nuclear reaction?

[thedestroyer5150]

I don't have much to say on the topic, I just found an interesting article that makes a lot of sense about this topic and thought I'd share it along with some info. on a few of the alchemical references.

First the red mercury reference: http://www.geocities.com/smshires.geo/red_mercury_powder.html

Next, the major alchemical reference: http://www.alchemylab.com/flameltestament.htm.

[FullMetalJacket]

I've heard this before. In fact, a while ago, a group of terrorists believed the myth was real and tried to buy some off undercover MI6 spooks... Hilarity ensued.

No worries folks, it's spurious.

Here we go! Some wiki info!

"Following the arrest of several men in the UK in September 2004, on suspicion that they were trying to buy a kilo of red mercury for £300,000, the International Atomic Energy Agency made a statement dismissing claims that the substance is real. "Red mercury doesn't exist," said the spokesman. "The whole thing is a bunch of malarkey." When the case came to trial at the Old Bailey in April 2006, it became apparent that News of the World "fake sheikh" Mazher Mahmood had worked with the police to catch the three men, Dominic Martins, Roque Fernandes and Abdurahman Kanyare. They were tried for "trying to set up funding or property for terrorism" and "having an article (a highly dangerous mercury based substance) for terrorism". According to the prosecutor, red mercury was believed to be a material which could cause a large explosion, possibly even a nuclear reaction, but whether or not red mercury actually existed was irrelevant to the prosecution. All three men were acquitted in July 2006"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5176382.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4943122.stm
http://nti.org/db/nistraff/1993/19930380.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5176522.stm
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/douglass/2003/0311.htm

IIRC, it was used as a plot device in an episode of Spooks too.

[knowledgehungry]

Just because the government says it doesn't exist is not proof that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying I believe in the stuff, because I don't, but if it was "top secret" the government admitting to its existence would kind of defeat the point.

[roccod]

From lowest to highest:

Confidential

Secret

Top Secret

Eyes Only

There are possibly more above "Eyes", but I personally never got that far :-)

Top Secret is NOT the top, I can assure you of that, since I actually DID have a security clearance. And yes, with the US Goverment.

I do not know whether Red Mercury exists or not. But I could not say that it DOESN'T exist, or will not exist. I do not possess the hubris to think that I know the truth.

I would like to take this moment to thank many of the forum members, such as NBK2000, Defendu, and many more for all their hard work on this forum.

I have had much enjoyable reading during the last week, I know a lot of hard work went into it, and I am grateful for your efforts. This forum both scares me, and inspires me. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION is the ultimate power.

And now, back to working on my new surplus SKS :-)

(cautiously awaiting the inevitable newbie NBK2000 post inspection...)

[nbk2000]

Even if Red-Mercury is totally fictitious, it's the meme of Red-Hg that's got them fucked.

You buy a kilo of mannitol from an undercover narcotics officer, believing it to be heroin.

Guess what?

When you get to court, you're going to do life in prison, same as if it was heroin. Why?

In lieu of

That legal concept says that since you bought the sugar, believing it to be smack, you are to punished as if it was smack. :p

So, if you buy some stuff that you believe to be a WMD, or a component thereof, even though it isn't, you're still going to be punished as if it was, because you were acting on the belief that it was.

[Zait]

From lowest to highest:
Confidential
Secret
Top Secret
Eyes Only

There are possibly more above "Eyes", but I personally never got that far :-)

Top Secret is NOT the top, I can assure you of that, since I actually DID have a security clearance. And yes, with the US Goverment.


Eyes only is not a clearance level, it is a handling caveat to prevent the electronic reproduction of the material.

TS actually is the top clearance. Everything "above" TS really isn't above, it is associated with it. For example you can't be read into an SCI program without having a TS clearance.

C, S and TS has mulitple variations like CNWDI (Critical Nuclear Weapons Design Information), SBI (Special Background Investigation), NOFORN (No Foreign Nationals) and so on.

Associated with the TS level there are other divisions that you really never hear or learn about unless you deal with them or are briefed into them.

LIMDIS (Limited Dissemination) , SNTK (Special Need-to-Know), MUST KNOW, CNTK (Controlled Need-to-Know), Close Hold, or other similar security upgrade designations and associated unique security requirements such as specialized nondisclosure statements.

SAP (Special Access Program) is any program which imposes need-to-know or access controls beyond those normally required for access to Confidential, Secret, or Top Secret information.

ESI (Extremely Sensitive Information) is information and material related to the Single Integrated Operational Plan for the conduct of nuclear warfighting operations.

SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) is information and material that requires special controls for restricted handling within compartmented intelligence systems and for which Code Word compartmentation is established.

You also have Code Words and Nick Names. A Code Word is a single word (such as UMBRA, which is (was) the code word for communications intelligence, RUFF applies(d) to imagery intelligence, etc.) assigned a classified meaning to insure proper security concerning intentions, and to safeguard information pertaining to actual military plans or operations classified as Confidential or higher. Code words are activated to designate a classified military plan or operation, or to designate classified geographical locations in conjunction with plans or operations. An example of a code word thta everyone might now recognize is "Broken Arrow" (yes I know it's 2 words) which was/is related to the nuclear weapons program.

A Nickname is a two word combination of two separate unclassified words assigned an unclassified meaning employed only for unclassified administrative, morale or public information purposes.

It should also be noted that after one has left the higher access levels (TS and associated programs) they are required to debrief and sign a non-disclosure agreement which depending on the programs involved can stay in place for as long as 50 yrs.