Any info about; lead trinitro oxybenzoate -Archive File

[megalomania]

the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 24, 2001 05:57 AM
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I seen the recipe for making the Oxybenzoate on mega's explosive.. It sounds quite interesting to me.
It says that it is stable to friction, impact but it is sensitive to heat & flame.
This could maybe become a good choise for a detonator....right?
Have anyone ever tried this explosive, if so I would like some info.

thanx


Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 24, 2001 02:12 PM
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I'm going to try it in a few weeks time when my latest order comes back from skylighter. I've got about 3kg of Pb(NO3)2 lying around with no real use, so I thought I'd get some sodium benzoate and try it. I'll let you know my results, but I've only just sent off the order so I don't know when I'll get the stuff.
I assume it'll be fairly similar to lead picrate, but I get the impression it's more stable.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 24, 2001 03:21 PM
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As for how long your stuff from Skylighter will take, mine took three months! Damn stuff must come across the Atlantic in a row boat!


the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 25, 2001 08:40 AM
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I've just tried it myself.
The final product was quite disapointing.
When I lit the powder I only melted to a brown substance without any sign of explosion
Maybe I added to much Sodiumbenzoate?
Anyone knows how much I should use?


Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 26, 2001 03:30 PM
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No, they just let it drift accross!

[Eliteforum]

Have I missed something or...? What's all the "Archive File" stuff being brought up into a new topic for?

[BLAST_X]

Hey hey Elite,

put on the brain-mask.
You can`t eat tetra-n-butylammoniumdiiodide.

[Eliteforum]

Excuse me? I was refering to why Mega had brought up all these old topics, I know the reason now. So why don't you go back to making k3wl pipe bombs?

He is posting them so that they will show up on searches. Now why don't you shut the fuck up and stop posting in them.

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>

[kingspaz]

i agree with pyro, put your handbags down ladies :mad:

[Boob Raider]

I think if you just mix Pb(NO3)2 with Na-Benzoate, you are most likely to end up with Pb-Benzoate and NaNO3. On the other hand if using Tri nitro Benzoic acid with NaOH to get Na-Tri Nitro Benzoate and then using it to make the Pb compound, that is what I'd assume to be an explosive. I think preparing TNBA is a 3 step nitration. Mono Nitro BA is a white fine crystaline powder and does not exhibit and explosive properties (maybe in extreme situations). I haven't tried preparing Di and Tri nitro BA due shortage of HNO3. Although I think TNBA will have similar properties to TNB.
I am putting this here as I didn't want to start a new thread. So....
I know a compound called Di Benzal Acetone. It is a compound similar to Phrone, the difference being the iso-propyl groups are replaced with Benzal. I think it is prepared by reacting Acetone with Benzaldehyde in an alkaline soln. Anyways what I wanted to try was to react Tri Nitro Benzaldehyde with Acetone, so does anyone have any predictions, suggestions etc. Also can Di Benzal Acetone be peroxidized in a similar fashion as Phrone. Anyways I can certainly use some feed back.

[Boob Raider]

TNBA can also be prepared by oxidizing TNT with KMnO4, in an alkaline medium ... I think. Can Xylene's methyl groups be oxidized in a similar fashion ?

[megalomania]

I have been searching for CAS numbers, additional references, and molecular structures for the older explosives on my website to improve the new design. This explosive, lead 2,4,6-trinitro-3-oxybenzoate, or the lead salt of trinitro-m-oxybenzoate, stood out as an anomaly because nothing was in the CAS database about it that I could find.

While puzzling over its possible structure, and looking at the synthesis, I noticed how unlikely the synthesis of this compound is given the starting materials. It seems very unlikely to me that lead nitrate can form a trinitro compound with sodium benzoate. It's not impossible, nitrate salts can nitrate things, but it looks like a stretch to make a trinitro compound by only mixing two solutions when hot and evaporating.

I suspect there might be a typo with the reference, perhaps this explosive starts with trinitro-m-benzoic acid already. The reaction described has more in common with a simple cationic exchange of metal ions (lead for sodium) than a nitration reaction.

I do not have, nor can I read, the original reference: H. Ficheroulle and A. Kovache, Memorial des Poudres 31, 9–10 & 25 (1949).

I don't think Gallica has this, at least not up to 1949. I could request it, but I would still have to wade through the French of which I assume it is written in.

Hmm, re-reading this thread, Boob Raider picked up on this a long time ago. I have been unable to find substantial references to exactly what trinitro oxybenzoate is, so I think this is a very archaic name.

In the molecular graphic I have provided shows what the parent compound should be, hydroxybenzoic acid, and merely adding lead nitrate is not going to do it. A little more digging and I found the same reference by Ficheroulle and Kovache listed in the Encyclopedia of Explosives under 2,4,6-Trinitro-3-hdroxybenzoic Acid. The reference states it is prepared by
heating diazoaminobenzoic acid with coned nitric acid, or reacting 3-amino-benzoic acid with fuming nitric acid. ALso, it says Ficheroulle and Kovache found the lead salt to be unsuitable as an explosive primer.

I must now issue a retraction for this information on my website. The reference is incorrect, the explosive itself is apparently useless, and I will be removing it from my website.