Mixtures with AP...

[xyz]

I was wondering if anyone knows at what ratios APAN is still flame sensitive? (how much AN can be added to AP and still have it initiate reliably from flame?).

I am asking because I dream about making a lot of salutes and such with AP and I was wondering what I can dream about adding to the AP to "bulk it out", make it less sensitive (but still sensitive enough to be flame sensitive), and still leave it reasonably powerful. I think that AN would be good for this but I was also considering sulfurless BP. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should add to the AP?

[hodehum]

Shouldn’t this be in Other Explosives?

If I remember correctly someone did a test on it <a href="http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/jan01/20011013-3-000163.html" target="_blank">here</a>.

[ShockWave]

At this moment my AP is drying to make 2 APAN charges of 200gr.

I really want to store my APAN, I will do it somewhere outside under the ground in an airsealed container for about 2 months.

It is not really an answer to your question but if we wait 2 months I can tell if APAN can be stored together. and if it still detonates and if it does not explode by itself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[spydamonkee]

i would shy away from storing AP or mixtures of it in sealed containers or any container for that matter because of its volitivity...
but im not you and everyone for himself, i personally store my AP spread out on a paper tissue handie towl in my pantry :D

remember 200g APAN is a large mix so if you are testing to weather i might go off by itself or not after 2 months i hope you have a safe way of testing this...

[xyz]

I posted this in high explosives because it is mostly concerned with APAN, the mods can move it if they want to.

I read the post in the archive, interesting about AP and HMTD increasing in power when some oxidiser is added to bring the oxygen balance up, I may try adding 20% KNO3 or NH4NO3 to some of the AP that I dream about...

I think that I will try a mix of about 60% AP, 30% AN, and 10% Icing sugar and see if this is flame sensitive, then experiment with different amounts of AP in the mixture depending on what results I get.

Also, the main reason I want to "cut" by AP is to desensitize it, I don't really care about getting more AP (I have 5.5 litres of 50% H2O2, 5 litres of conc. HCl, and can get a few litres of acetone whenever I want). Because of this I would prefer not to cut it with something like flour like ALENGOSVIG1 did as this would lower the power of it. Anyway, I can get AN for half the price of flour. :D

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]</small>

[ShockWave]

about the APAN of 200gr that I want to store outside.

Ofcourse I will place it somewhere far into the forrest or something like that, The APAN is in the bottom of a small coca-cola drinking bottle the 0,5l the AP blastingcap is already inside with a fuse, tonight I will tape them in a plastic bag, and that plastic bag will I put into my airsealed container which I will burrie under the ground, so if I come back at two months, and dig up the 2 APAN charges, I can test them to see if they will still detonate, note that I don't want to mess with 2 months or half a year old AP.

The reason I am doing this is because I don't know a good strong storable device with the chemicals I have.

But I think that if the AP is 6 months old that the AP will be too weak to set off the APAN or AN.

BTW. If I dig up my APAN, would it still be dry, or shall it become wet after 2 months? :confused:

[Mr Cool]

I don't know whether to move this or not, I'll leave it but don't be surprised if someone else moves it.

Remember that adding AN might make you AP less sensitive, but it will NOT make it any more stable!!! APAN IS NO MORE STORAGE STABLE THAN AP!!!

Just thought I'd remind you, before you start the two months of storing your peroxide...

[Helos]

The post above contained really bad information
<a href="http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/jan01/20011013-3-000163.html" target="_blank">http://odin.prohosting.com/~forumtwo/jan01/20011013-3-000163.html</a>
Why the heck would any one want to cut down their AP with baking soda or floor? It is like mix sand in your food and think that you will get more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[carbonated]

If for example you wanted to make 10-1g charges with 10g AP, by adding a little bicarb (as in the link) you can make a few more charges at slighlty less power. If you are adding a little bicarb you are just trying to make it last longer and get more charges out of it, not making powerful blasting caps.

[ShockWave]

Well, I just got home from the forest, I burried 1 charge of 200gr APAN somewhere at 50cm, it was very dark so tommorow i will dig it a little deeper.

I know AP is not storable, but my kitchen and bathroom is full with all the chemicals i hate that, every time I want to make a bomb i first have to make AP and stuff, well the bomb I burried today, If I can stay away from it I will try to leave it there for as many months as I can, then I will dig it up very carefull and throw it in the air to see if is shocksensitive if not, then I will light the fuse which is already inside, if it is just as powerfull as normal I think I will make 3 or 4 apan bombs and store them somewhere to so I can use them as a detonater, pics are almost online, probably my site is ready this week.

Btw. the APAN is fully taped by ducktape, sealed in a plasticbag, then in an airsealed container and then another plasticbag, I think it is impossible to get wet.

[xyz]

I am mostly concerned with the AP becoming less friction and shock sensitive and it doesn't bother me that it is still unstable and can't be stored dry, I store my AP under water and in a place where it would do no damage if it did go off. Whenever I dry some out for use it is always used in the next few days and it would be the same with this mixture (dry the AP, add it to the mixture, use as soon as possible)

[CyclonitePyro]

Hey Shockwave, no offense but please don't call your charges, explosives or explosive devices, bombs. It sounds really kewl(thats a bad thing) and a bomb is a device meant to destroy people or objects.

[ShockWave]

sorry for that, but I thought it was all the same, bomb, explosive, charge,device !!really ! what is the difference ?

what should i call it? charge ??

[Anthony]

"Charge" is fine. "Device" would be more suitable if it wasn't just explosive, such as an improvised grenade, or mine etc.

"bomb" has a bad (and kewl) stigma attached to it and isn't really accurate unless you're describing something like what is dropped out of a bomber aeroplane.

English not being your first language, you can't be expected to not ever make little errors like this.

[ShockWave]

thanks for the advice and i'm glad that you told me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ShockWave]

Video's are ar still not online but I am working on it, untill then you can watch some pictures. :p

[DBSP]

You clearly aren't very clever ShockWave. Synthesizing AP at 50 degrees isn't excactly what I call clever. When making AP the temp shuld never exceed 10 degrees C. There is a significant change in sensitivity between AP made at under 10* and at 60* C. I know because I have tested making two identical bathes only not cooling one of them. They where allso both properly neutrolised to PH 7. The one which hadn't been cooled was twice as sensitive as the one who had been cooled, and that AP was still sensitive.

And you really shuld change the procedure at your homepage.

[ShockWave]

yes I know, I always read that AP is very sensitive, and very dangerous at high temperatures, but I just want to show how I make my AP and i am doing this for a long, with every new batch of AP I test how sensitive it is, I put about 1gr. in some alluminiumfoil, I out it together I lay it on my balcony with a stonefloor and hit it with a metal hammer, I never goed off, I dunno why It is very insensitve, even BP will go off bij a hammerblow

[Anthony]

I smell something...

Anyone doing hammer tests with a gram of AP is risking injury and hearing damage. I get very suspicious when someone says they cannot detonate AP with a hammer blow. I get even more suspicious when they claim BP to explode in the same situations.

Even if what you have said is completely true, why continue your practise, which by your own admission, you *know* is not as safe as it could be?

The "it hasn't happened yet" excuse is always a hilarious defense of unsafe practice.

[ShockWave]

I know that it is not safe because that is what everybody is saying and writing, that is why I always test this stuff, and with BP, it was not really BP it was the powder of matches, I allways compare those two, matchhead and BP, but I know it is different, the matchheadpowder ignite by a hamerblow and the AP did not, And I am not lying, why should I lie about that?

That is what I said in my website, "maybe I was just lucky, so be very carefull"
I tread my AP like if it is very very unstable, I never take any risk, but I can not imagine that it can detonate by it's own weight.

But now I get so much comment, I will remove it, or I will change it.

[ShockWave]

Don't get a wrong point of view of me, I take care very much with all explosives, and I will never say "It hasn't happened yet" even the best pyro can make a misstake.

Now something else, I have noticed that if you put a very little bit of AP on a piece of aluminium foil, about the size of half matchhead, let's say 0,01gr. and you put it on fire it will just burn quikly, but if you put a lighter under the foil. about 10cm. it will cause a very loud BANG, and if you wait to long it wil evaporize

[NERV]

When you light AP in the open with direct flame it will just deflagrate. When you slowly heat AP it melts which increases the density, and also causes self-confinement. This causes it to detonate.

[kingspaz]

ShockWave, even the best can have bad luck with organic peroxide explosives. expect evey batch to blow up in your face then you won't be surprised if one does :D
about the AP not detonating upon a hammer blow....
every single batch of AP has varying amounts of dimer and trimer forms. this contributes to a slightly different structure every time and therefore the unpredictable nature of AP. maybe your next batch will be more sensitive...

[Devils Sign]

ShockWave,

Tell me if I'm wrong when I say you don't treat your AP with the respect it deserves. Although you have other experiences with this peroxide, you still should treat it like subscribed.

[ShockWave]

As you can read in my post above
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I tread my AP like if it is very very unstable, I never take any risk, but I can not imagine that it can detonate by it's own weight.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

[Anthony]

If you are safety conscious, then why are you synthesising it at 50*C? Good job you do treat it carefully, because you probably *have* to because it *is* extra sensitive.

Really, there is no reason at all to synth it at such high temperatures. To synth it at proper temps would require less effort than what you're expending here arguing in the defense of the method!

[ShockWave]

Ok I know it is dangerous but shall we continu with the subject.

[kingspaz]

ShockWave, you're either wrong and don't want to admit it or a lier. it doesn't matter which you are but synthesising AP at 50 degrees is going to result in a VERY high proportion of the much more sensitive dimer. either accept this or admit you don't treat AP the way you claim to.

[ShockWave]

man, why should I lie !!

I really treat the stuf with care, and I really make it at 50C, But after reading al this i think it is better to cool to around 10C since I get so much comment from you.

[kingspaz]

i think it would be a very good idea for you to read as much archive stuff and previous topics about AP as you can. if you have any short one liner questions (or ones you are afraid to ask because you think they are dumb) email me instead of cluttering here and i will try to help.
also learn some chemistry. understanding is the key to sucess.

[ShockWave]

well, ask my girlfriend how much hours I spent every day at this forum, the last year almost everyday a couple of hours and I still haven't read everything, so I will continu at this moment.

Btw, I am looking for something else that will detonate by lightning with fire like AP, so I don't have to make the AP anymore, but almost everything will deflagrate, any advice ?

[Anthony]

You want to look specifically for primary explosives. They're the ones that will make the deflageration to detonation transition, when initiated with "fire" as you put it. Try mega's site and google generally.

BTW, get rid of the girlfriend and you can spend *all* day, *every* day on theforum and experimenting! :)

[nbk2000]

Wo...man? :confused: What's that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Who needs a girlfriend when you have thunder and lightning at your beck and call? Shake the earth, not the bed. :p

Blow your charge, not your wad. :D

I wonder how many pyros are dateless and alone? Probably a lot...hence the pyro fetish. ("I'll show them ALL!")

[ShockWave]

I live together with my girl, and she has accepted that I make charges when ever I want to, at night when one of my charges is ready for blasting she even comes with me to blow up something only she is always staying in the car with ears covered, the main problem is that we have only one kitchen that means while she is cooking diner that my AN is there to drive of some water <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> so I have to find a solution for that, get rid of the girl or get rid of the chemicals ? well, none of them will leave I guess.

Btw. I can nowhere find another explosive that will detonate by fire.

[mr.evil]

acetylides, fulminates, and maybe picrates are known to detonate from a flame... But be carefull with them as they are very sensitive primairy explosives.

<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/acetylide.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> you can find more information about metal acetylides.

<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/fulminate.htm" target="_blank">And here</a> you can find more info about fulminates

[Mr Cool]

I don't mean to be rude, but if you can't find another explosive that is flame sensitive then perhaps you shouldn't be here. I will list a few; there are many more, but these are the most commonly encountered:

Acetylides of silver, mercury, copper (and acetylide nitrates),
Azides of lead, silver, etc
Fulminates of silver, mercury, etc
Picrates/Styphnates/trinitrobenzoates/trinitrocresolates of most heavy metals,
DDNP,
Some heavy metal nitrides/"fulminating" heavy metal compounds (e.g. fulminating gold, silver, platinum, mercury)
Organic acid salts of silver/mercury/lead, e.g. the oxalates, tartarates,
HMTD,
ETC
ETC
ETC
ETC
ETC
ETC

I can't be bothered to type out more examples, but there are MANY!

[ShockWave]

The topic is called "mixtures with AP" but I can not start a totally new topic, so I'll ask it here.

Would it be dangerous to mix Flashpowder with ANNM ? If I mix those two shall it become more sensitive than ANNM/AL ?

In another topic some had a succesfull detonation and a none detonation with ANNM/AL with 3,5gr of Flashpowder as blasting cap, So when I have ANNM/FLASH maybe it is even more sensitive? I'm asking because if this works then I never have to make AP anymore

<small>[ October 13, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: ShockWave ]</small>

[Al Nobel]

If you mix clorate flashpowder with AN you risk the formation of ammoniumchlorate which is really sensitive.Use ANNM and a normal blasting cup.

[ShockWave]

I don't have NM anymore, A few minutes ago I did something different, I mixed 60Gr AN with 14Gr Flashpowder from some "knallpatronen", Just to see if it did anything, I used 2,5Gr Flashpowder as a blastingcap, I lighted the fuse and ran away, There was a loud boom, louder than only 2,5gr of flashpowder can produce, but I wasn't expecting a loud boom so maybe I'm wrong but I think the AN/Flash detonated,but I'm not sure because normally you can FEEL 60Gr AN. I'll do some further testing with a smaller blasting cap. About that sensitive ammoniumchlorate, I mix the 2 about 20sec. before detonation.

[mr.evil]

dude, you can't use flashpowder in a blasting cap, atleast nog in this quantities, because it doesn't detonate.

[ShockWave]

Dude, do a search and you will see that someone detonated ANNM/AL, Flashpowder doesn't detonate ofcourse,but gives a large shock that will set off ANNM/AL, and I'm almost sure that it will set off other things too.

[ShockWave]

here it is:

<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000280;p=1" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000280;p=1</a>

wantsomfet is using the same "vogelschreck" as me, it contains flashpowder and is also called: "knallpatrone", which you can buy legal the whole year in germany in many shops.

[NERV]

I really dout you set off a mix of AN and flash with a flsh powder det. That kind of mix would be extremaly insensitive. You cannot use a low explosive as a det. Mabey flash will set off explosives with a high sensitvity like pure PETN, RDX, and seemingly ANNM/Al. But when it comes to ANFO and the rest your not going to get a detonation without AP, HMTD, ect. I think you should go do some more studying befor you make any more explosives.

[vulture]

You guys are getting dangerously close to a neverending topic here. Ask Chris Shiherlis...(is he banned now btw?)

[ShockWave]

I read that topic with that "Cris", and this may not end in an endless discussion.

And Nerv, if you do the studying than I'll do some real explosives in real life ok?
You can do blablabla, but I was only telling that I was suprised by a very loud boom and there was a crater which was very big for only Flash.

Maybe it had formed ammoniumchlorate who can tell, but for some reason I think that the AN was used by the explosion.

[ShockWave]

BTW. don't tell me how to detonate AN or an AN-related charge, I have done this many more times then you have posts on this forum.

[Anthony]

Let's please not start this up again...

[NERV]

First off if I came off as being an ass I didn’t mean to. I was just in a bad mood at the moment (brothers destroyed 3 of my CD's playing Frisbee :mad: ). Another thing I want to clear up is I did not tell you how to set off your AN mixes. You can set your AN off however you want to.

I admit you may have gotten a partial detonation. If the flash contained a chlorate than that might have detonated. As well as you might have gotten some Ammonium Chlorate that went off to. I think it is a good idea to experiment with flash dets as some can get flash more easily than AP, HMTD, ect. From my own experience I have never had a successful detonation using flash though.

P.S. I don’t give two jiggles of a rat’s ass if you have set off more charges than I have posts.

[ShockWave]

Let's put sand over it, I already forgot.

The biggest reason why I am at this forum is because I want to discover new things, doing everyday the same charge will be every day alot of fun, but I will not learn anything, and since the AP stuf is not storeable and not very safe, maybe I can use flash someday after more practicing.

The next charge will be about 100gr AN with around 20Gr flash and with a smaller amount of Flash about 2gr. to set it off, atleast trying to set it off and tamp it extremely good, I'll post the result. and i'll take the pictures.

[ShockWave]

pictuers of the Kno3, NM and the flashpowder source are now at my site.

[Anthony]

If someone wants to continue on the flash/detonation theme, then create a new thread, don't pollute this one. That is as long as you do not simply restate the arguements in the old thread regarding the matter.

I give no warranties that the thread will remain open though...

[nbk2000]

The first motherfucker who says flashpowder detonates...DIES! :mad:

This is one of the few "1 hitter quitters" the Forum has. That, and disrespect of staff, will get you instantly banned.

Don't tempt fate.

[ShockWave]

Flash burns, everybody here knows that, but in the topic I post above wantsomfet was telling that it can detonate annm/al, today I tried it but it failed, only the 10gr flash went off, so I am wondering how you can detonate annm/al with Flash, i think this is impossible because 1month old AP even failed to detonate the annm/al.