Best Bolt Action Rifle

[Azazel]

i dunno if i been playing to much Counter Strike [gota love that Artic Sniper Magnum http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif] or what but i find myself compeled to go out and purchase a large calibre hunting rifle...
I live in Australia so the gun laws down here differ... Magazine sizes for rifles are limited to somewhere near 5 rounds [dont quote me on that] and they cannot be semi or full automatic, also i would there to be a fair degree of acuracy... any suggestions on a nice bolt action rifle ?...
What models of rifles have you boys all got in your gun cabinets ?

------------------
Speed Kills. Live Longer. Drive a Honda
:)

[Maddoc]

For squirril and rabbit hunting I prefer my .50 BMG, one shot, one kill http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Oh, and asking people what weapons they have in their gun cabinets is NOT an "Improvised Wepon" so I'm moving this to misc.

------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?

[EventHorizon]

How much do you want to spend?

You could go with a McMillian stock, Hart action and barrel, Jewel trigger, and Nightforce scope, but then you have to shell out over $5000 too. With that setup, with custom chamber and dies, you're looking at a rifle that should do <1/4 MOA and probably closer to 1/8-0.

Personally, I love my Ruger Varmet/Target .308 with Nightforce 12-42X50mm, 5 shot 3/8" groups at 100yds and ~6" at 500yds (but thats me http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif )

[HMTD Factory]

Maddoc, if the rifle is a .50 there will be no squirrel or rabbit left for recoverhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

I believe the AWP/ASM is a Sako-TRG riding on an Accuracy International folding stock, in .338 Lapua Magnum. It's a lot of money in that combination. Ammo is darn expensive too(It is imported only from Finland).

Usually, a "blueprinted" and "trued-up" Remington 700 action, coupled with a match-grade barrel, pillar bedded on a McMillian stock, in .300 Winchester Magnum, will be "extremely" accurate and satisfies most need. Good power, nice muzzle blast like a real AWP.

If you are into the looks of the AWP, Accuracy International offers their folding stocks in different rifle actions, like the Remington 700 just mentioned. But a stock of theirs cost US$1000+.

I've been playin CS for about 2 months, on good days my frag-death is 3:2

[Agent Blak]

For reliablity you can't go wrong with the Lee/Enfield .303 British. The rifle will out live you. There were some that were tweaked and made into Sniper Rifles

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[shooter3]

1903 springfield $90. + New WW-II manufactored 2 groove sniper barrel $32. + 3-9 power scope $50. = Lots of 30-06 accurate fun for cheap.

[Maddoc]

For rat hunting I prefer a 12 guage Super Shorty with exploding (designed by NBK2K) CO2 shell rounds.

------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?

[cutefix]

Powerful precision rifles require some skill in its use.You may have the most powerful sniper gun in the world,but when you fire it and got your eyes socked by the scope,due to the unexpected heavy recoil;that will be called a real BULL'S EYE!You cannot learn firing these guns efficiently overnight.It takes a lot of practice to fire a descent shot.Most of those talented snipers are experienced shooters with other guns before they graduated to using precision rifles. In the military establishment, these guns are given to those people who have special markmanship skills(above average).Therefore I suggest that you familiarize yourself with proper gun handling and try exert much shooting practice using ordinary rifles,say a .223 caliber,then when you are good at it then train well for the .303 bores.When you have accumulated enough skill,that will be the time to try your sights on these special rifles.It is best to train also with people who have good experience in handling these special guns.

[A-BOMB]

My .215 beats all your sniper rifles altogether, let me describe it harris bipod, flip down micro-bipod in the butt,heavy match barrel, crome plated bolt and reciver,
spiecal thumb hole stock, and to top it of a 70mm ziess 4x-26x scope. So in other words my gun beats all of yours!


------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

[EventHorizon]

OH pics please!

BTW, I was unaware that Zeiss, or anyone else for that matter, made a 70mm objective scope. And in what aspect are you basing a .215 on being better than everyone elses?

[Fingerless]

Yes, 70 mm's are made I believe. And most sniper rifles have very little recoil as they are very heavy. I shot a custom made .308 designed for sniping, it barely moved, of course, that ain't no .50 BMG!

I would suggest a Remington 700, with a synthetic stock, and glass bedded. Capable of more than most shooters, and should be plenty accurate for what you want. Take your choose of calibers! 25/06, .308, are both very accurate calibers.

[A-BOMB]

Sorry no pic's I don't really want the piggy to really know I have it a pic is real proof so no pic's sorry. And I say its the best because of the hot load my uncle loads for it and because it puts out a 69 grain bullet at 3978 fps and will punch through a 8 inch thick tree and a 6 inch thick white oak with my target on it and keep going at 126 yards
and I've taken out ground hogs at 800 yards with it and only aiming over target 3 inchs.
So I say again my sniper guns better than all
of yours! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
And the scopes preety old and its from who knows where go it at a auction a while back
and its got the clearest optic I've ever seen
and it could be a custom job because the scoper was off a suped up 30-378 wetherby mag.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

[This message has been edited by A-BOMB (edited September 06, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

Yes, 700's are very nice, although their recent quality is slipping a bit. They are the Chevy's of the rifle world, most any competant gunsmith can work on them and they have a large supply of after market parts.

My .308 weights about 12.5# and barely moves when fired, but that will get you in trouble when you perch yourself behind a 7# .30-06. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

[A-BOMB]

My dads got a 700 in 7mm remington mag and ultra mag. And what type of .308 winchester of britsh?

------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

[HMTD Factory]

I don't believe in "using ordinary gun first for basics, then get better skill with precision rifle". At least the author of "The Ultimate Sniper" doesn't believe in it.

Sure military use this method because they have limited sniper rifles.

A civilian, if seriously in persuit for marksmanship, go for a precision rifle, quality scope, low-recoil cartridge, and shoot at more than 300 yards.(Sound much like an NRA high-power match, except using iron sights)

Why start off with high-end products(which I proudly don't have any)? You reduce mechanical error of the hardware to so low that the shooter can see his own fault -and magnified by the long range flight of the bullet.

Right now there's a Remington 700 in .300 Win Mag in excellent condition sold at my local gunshop for only 400$CDN, great price for who ever wants it! but I passed on it because the bolt face is already enlarged for the magnum, can't change it to use other cartridges.

[Anthony]

I don't agree. A high quality sniper rifle may have features which could make up for a bad shooting style/practise. So although you might start out being pretty good, improvement would be difficult.

If you work your way up in quality of equipment you should see an improvement in your shooting each time you upgrade, If you don't then you'll know that it's you that needs improving, not the equipment.

[Maddoc]

I LOVE my Mini-14.

Theres no other gun I'd like to have other than my Mini, it fucking rules and is as accurate is almost anyone would need it to be.

------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?

[This message has been edited by Maddoc (edited September 07, 2001).]

[EventHorizon]

I agree with you Anthony, its better to go with a decent rifle, say around 3/4-1/2 MOA and master that, then dish out the big dough for a more accurate rifle. You'll learn more in the process as well.

Maddoc,

Mini...hell, go for a real mans gun and go for the full version, the M-14. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

hehehe, j/k I happen to like my Mini-30 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[AR-15 Man]

Well depends on how much you want to put in your rifle and how good you are. People say trick out a Rem 700 but I say a Savage. It is cheaper and performs just as good when you trick it out. As for round it is depends on what your requirements are. I mean those 40 dollar Mosin Nagaents are very accurate.

[cutefix]

Do you mean the Mosin Nagants ?The same rifles used by the Vietcong snipers during the ‘Nam War.A lot of grunts(GIs) became victims to its accurate fire.This gun looks simple , but respectable weapon,I think it can be of the same league as the Lee-Enfield rifle(also converted to a sniper rifle)….

[EventHorizon]

AR-15 Man,
you are correct, the new Savages are getting quite nice reviews on quality. Not as many after market parts, but they are pretty good.

My uncle has a Mosin Nagant (moisin faggot as I call it). Iron sights and bent barrel and he can pop a 2' steel target 3 out of 5 times at 500yds.

[frostfire]

INTERVENTION
a development of xm-107 Windrunner reduced caliber for .408 Cheyenne Tactical

1MOA~1k yards, remain subsonic at 2000 yards

[HMTD Factory]

Anthony, I am not saying your opinion is of someone who's not really into shooting, but take a "sniper" rifle down range and fire off some quick shots at 200+yrds, you will see that the gun doesn't compensate bad skills, it REFLECTS them. The one actually veils bad skill is a lousy rifle(1.5MOA+ , on sniper rifle standard), it veils good skill too.

Maybe I start with the wrong foot by saying "high-end equipment" and looked like a pompous a$$. By "quality equipment" I mean "the kind that yield consistency". A 3/4~1/2
MOA rifle like EventHorizon said is already "quality equipment". I am in fact a fan of those "affordable accurate rifles" like the Savage rifle mentioned by AR-15. Hell I would like to have a Savage 10FP .308Win in no time. What I use for my own training is a
synthetic stocked Mauser 96/38 with Timney trigger topping a Tasco scope at 24 power + handloads shooting offhand (Do I sound like a cheap a$$ now instead?)

Starting with low-quality equipment may end up spending MORE money and time than buying a decent one at the beginning.

Help yourself go through these two scenarios

1: A lousy shot happend -becuase the rifle don't lie, the shooter now go figure out what is wrong with his component skills. When the grouping gets really good, the shooter know he's keeping up with the consistency.

2: A lousy shot happened -maybe the gun, maybe the shooter. Even when the shooting is actually good, the grouping gives 4+ MOA....

The person who correct your math paper must be honest so the score reflect your math ability, isn't that right?

[Anthony]

I must admit that I'm not experienced in firearms shooting, but I do air rifles (that doesn't make me a pussy - honest...) and was applying information from that.

What I meant to say that was if you start with real accurate rifle and you get good results from the go, then there is little incentive to improve your shooting skills.

For example, with air rifles, the accepted way of learning to shoot is with a cheap(ish) recoiling spring gun. When I did this I was getting 2-3" groups at 35yds, I tried various shooting and hold positions also leant trigger control, breathing, follow-through and other stuff and I can now fit the head of a drawing pin (thumb tack) at the same 35yds. The next stage is to upgrade to a more expensive, non-recoiling rifle which with the skills I learnt with the other rifle will allow me to the same thing at 50-60yds. It will also have a better, fully adjustable trigger which I will improve my shooting.

Had I just started out with this rifle then I have got say 3/4" groups at 35yds after a bit of practise. But I would have learnt bad shooting practises as the difference between using and not using follow through would have been much smaller than on the recoiling rifle. So I would most likely not have used it. The adjustable trigger would also have been wasted as although it will refine a good shot it won't make any difference to an inherently bad shot.

Recoiling air rifles are often to used to train firearms shooters as they require better shooting technique than many firearms. Because, they recoil more than a rimfire, the recoil is first backwards, then forwards making gun jump rather than just push backwards (makes the hold important). Also, unlike a firearm, the projectile is still in the barrel when the gun recoils, so how you react to the recoil has serious effects on accuracy.

It's also said that if you take a shooter with a firearm rifle and a shooter with a recoiling air rifle and get them to switch guns, each with no previous experience of the other's weapon. The airgunner will happily hit what he's aiming at, enjoying the advnatages the firearm has, while the firearm guy would struggle.

I haven't seen this for myself so cannot sya it's definitely true.

Another thing any air rifle is good at teaching you is hold over and under as if your target is as little as 5yds from your zero you need to adjust your aim point to hit it. It's also important to take wind into consideration when shooting an air rifle as the projectile is so slow moving (relatively) that it's trajectory is easily changed.

If you were to take a novice shooter and give them a fully kitted out .50BMG which in the right hands is accurate at a mile+ chances are that he would learn more slowly than say if he started out with a Ruger 10/22, most likely because he'd be concentrating on the recoil too much to notice the effects his shooting style is having.

BTW it doesn't have to be more expensive to keep upgrading your equipment. You can sell your previous gun to help pay for the new one.

Oops, I think I rambledhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[AR-15 Man]

No point in starting with some 2000 dollar sniper rifle. What someone needs is a rifle they can practice with and are not afraid to get some work done with it. How many people are willing to bang around a 2000 dollar rifle? Really even a cheap sniper rifle is more expensive than you think. First you need a good scope. Then you must either buy a lot of different brands of ammo or get into handloading to find your right load. Then either change your trigger or get it lightened. Finally your stocks. Once you think of it your 400 Dollar Savage will turn out to be very expensive. But that is the fun of it. I use a Savage and love the rifle. I also have a M-44 carbine, 2 turks Mausers, and an Enfield. Also check out the Gibbs Quest II rifle. It is a Jungle Enfield with some add ons. But when you get done to it going to training schools and practice are what make you good. I mean the VC used old bolt actions a lot in the begining of the war. Learning to be a rifleman is the key. Alvin York comes to mind when I think of this. I think we have some rifleman on this board.

[HMTD Factory]

See, we have to really talk into things so we both know what we are talking about.

Now that I understand Anthony's idea I believe he is right too.

My idea is that only a good rifle can "single out" the human error.

Anthony's idea is that a trainer rifle is what really trains a learner; while a perfect rifle will "spoil" a beginner.

A good learner rifle should be accurate, like I said, but can't be too easy to shoot -helps the learner handle recoil and improve shooting skill, like Anthony said. The common idea is that the rifle must reflect holes in shooting skills. Our ideas don't contradict after all.

[Anthony]

I thought maybe we weren't talking about the same thinghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[EventHorizon]

Here are some movie clips of the PERFECT beginner rifle...the 577 T.Rex

HERE (http://www.accuratereloading.com/videos.html)


[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited September 10, 2001).]

[Agent Blak]

You coul always try the...
Mannlicher-Carcano: Model 31/98; 6.5mm it was good enough to off JFK anyways.
Oswald fired 3 shots from 150 feet away at a moving target landing 2 hits(1 to the skull and 1 to the neck) in 5.6 seconds. There was a man when CBS did there test to fire 3 shots in in 4.8 Seconds all hittting their mark(3")...


------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[green beret]

Is it possible to get a .50 BMG in Australia?

[Anthony]

Dunno, Birdman Weapon Systems might ship internationally if you ask nicelyhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

[green beret]

LOL- I remember that birdman "weapons" dude. He banned us from his site didnt he? HAHAHAHAHA!

[plan-x]

theres a company in QLD who makes 50BMG 3 shot BA rifles. i dont know their name but i've seen the bolt out of oe of these, and it's about 10" long and 1.5" in diameter (freakin big when you're used to the bolt from a brno fox mod 2 .222rem)

------------------
They may kill us, but death brings only freedom.

[Anthony]

I saw a 50BMG on display once (model unknown but it was stainless), the bolt was removed and you could look straight down the barrel, it was like a fucking drainpipe!

I tried to take the weight of it to see how heavy it was and for a moment I thought it was screwed down (didn't want to jerk it about as the display guy looked grumpyhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif)

I wouldn't want to be the soldier that had to carry one those bastards.

------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

M40A1 (7.62x51 NATO, .308 rem)

Barret M82A1 (.50 BMG)

Savage 10FP-LE2B (7.62x51 NATO, .308 rem)

Or, if you're a fan of older rifles, the Arisaka type 99 will do a dandy on anything it hits, with 7.7x58mm of death. Best of all, you can pick up the parts off of ebay for cheap. The only problem is the price of the ammo.

[wetpowder]

I like my 7mm mauser. I bought it surplus from a gun show. Went to the range and at 50 yards it was hitting 6 inches to the right.

Feel sorry for the soldier who has it.

Edit: 7x57mm Model 1916 Mauser. A lot were converted to 7.62 NATO
+++++++++

7mm? 0_o

NBK

[Alexires]

Hmmm, old thread, but still.

I'm almost certain that .50 are restricted in Aus, and you cant get them unless you have either a D or E class license (read police or military license). Actually, come to think of it, you can't get much these days....

[xyz]

It varies from state to state, some states have no restrictions on .50BMG, classifying them the same as all other bolt action centrefires.

[irongriffin]

Well I suppose that a heavy hitting bolt action would be good for sniping. Though I just have to say that a lever action 30-30 should do you well.

The reasoning behind this is that you can keep an aimed position and never need to take you finger off the trigger to put the next round in the chamber. This is very effective.

[ozboy]

The Lee Enfield is a good cheap bolt action rifle with a 10 round clip, but theres a problem with mounting the scopes on these rifles. Another thing which you must keep in mind is that in Australia it is an offence to have a loaded magazine within 1klm of any road or path etc. (you'll learn the rules when you go for your licence).
USE
Therefore, it is a wiser choice to purchase a firearm with a integral magazine with a drop plate so that if you forget to unload and do see a police officer, you can just drop the plate and the ammo will fall to the ground and you'll be out of trouble.
PARAGRAPH
I suggest you buy something like a howa lighting in 30-06. The 30-06 is a good all round calibre for medium to large game. Its slightly more powerfull than the .308 but dosent have the wild kick of the .338 lapua magnum. Howa rifles are super acurate( 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box garanteed).
BREAKS
They have an ajustable trigger also. You can purchase one brand new here in Australia for less than $900.00 with a 3.5-10x40 nikko sterling scope and stainless barrel, which is great value for such an acurate rifle. The weatherby vanguard would also be an exelent choice.

[neo-crossbow]

You coul always try the...
Mannlicher-Carcano: Model 31/98; 6.5mm it was good enough to off JFK anyways.
Oswald fired 3 shots from 150 feet away at a moving target landing 2 hits(1 to the skull and 1 to the neck) in 5.6 seconds. There was a man when CBS did there test to fire 3 shots in in 4.8 Seconds all hittting their mark(3")...
Yet he couldn't hit a sitting Gen. Walker while he was doing his tax returns with it.... And don't come back with the deflected by the window sash, its all history.

But I back using a mil surplus back-dated rifle to start with... after all they were cutting edge technology a while ago and its best to slowly introduce yourself into the world of fire-arms.


Do NOT quote entire posts, signature and all! :mad:

[inventorgp]

How about a Jarrett Custom rifle - only (USD)$3000ish:rolleyes:

There's not a lot of gun shops in Brisbane anymore :(

Or a Harris M-87 .50BMG Sniper Rifle.

If you had to fight the "bad guys" Line em' up, and get all of em'

[neo-crossbow]

Is it possible to get a .50 BMG in Australia?

You will find that a .50 BMG calibre fire-arm gets immediate catergory R status (Class III for our U.S friends) There are 5 of these licences currently on issue in Australia. Metal Storm is one such liscence holder, Warner Bros on the Gold Coast is another, the three others are PMC (private military companies) operating abroad who store weapons in Australia for training purposes only.

However... You can get a press and dies made by Lee from Die-a-rama. You will need a press with the 1 1/8" thread as opposed to the normal 7/8 threads you find on most presses.


Contact:

2/159 Penshurst St
Beverly Hills NSW
2209

or Phone them on 02 9570 4794

You can get the brass and projectiles over the net from anywhere in the world. Powders and primers from your local gun-store (if you show them a valid fire-arms liscence)

PMC list thier 660 grain ammo at 3080 fps

For similar results try 210 grains of AR 2214 pushing a 680 FMJ projectile.

Australian army .50BMG is loaded with AR2211

ADI's new handload booklet due out sometime this month will have .50BMG Data inside, so there is a nice Australian reference.

Oh BTW a list of fire-arm catergories is listed : http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/general/category.htm so you atleast know what is and isn't legal.

Happy hunting

[Bugger]

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/general/category.htm is the website of the Queensland State Pigs. They are the most corrupt and brutal Pig force in Australia.

[Jacks Complete]

Wow, that's some list. I find it odd that bullet-proof vests are in a class of their own, and that handcuffs are restricted too. Guess the bondage types have to make do with wristcuffs and ropes?

Can you actually get any of these licenses, or are they basically locked right down? I assume there are increasing security measures and checks for each of the classes, with A the lowest going up to R. Except that then E makes no sense.

I hear New Zealand has slightly better gun laws, and last time I looked, they had a couple who shot at world standard as one of the case studies for moving over there, which bodes well.

I really want to get out of the UK soon.

[neo-crossbow]

Can you actually get any of these licenses, or are they basically locked right down?

I reside in Queensland and currently hold A,B,C, D(restricted to 1) E, H (restricted to one) and M.

I also resent the statement from Bugger. I have found them to be most helpful in almost every adventure. When I was in the mining game they would be required to come out and check my magazine. They were always helpful and would stay for a chat. (If they were keen it would always culminate into a blast)

I also allow 2 policemen to hunt on my property, they often repair damaged fences they find (or atleast report it to me).

[inventorgp]

Only some are corrupt. I know a cop (law bizwax stuff) who makes ANFO and
sets them of on his dad's farm for removing trees:D

Thanks for the link neo-crossbow. Oh and you know those Airsoft guns, well
they are class A air rifles. Don't ask me why, although paintball isn't.

Well at least I can get a semi-auto rifle;)

[Storm on the Horizon]

And most sniper rifles have very little recoil as they are very heavy. I shot a custom made .308 designed for sniping, it barely moved, of course, that ain't no .50 BMG!

Take your choose of calibers!

I've spent some time behind the M24 and consider it "weighty" (around 15 pounds unloaded if memory serves me). This was during my stint in the Army and the weapon mentioned was most definately designated for a sniper role. I can tell you that there was still quite a bit of recoil. I'm guessing the rifle you shot may have had a muzzle break - something we didn't have avalible with the M24.

As far as choice of calibers... with all the weapons I own, I use/fire what the "powers that be" use. Being in the States that means NATO calibers for the most part. I personally avoid exotic calibers that may not be availble futher down the road with civilian restricions. Sometimes this will mean forfeiting performance - but I will do so infavor of avaliblity. If your down under, look at what the military/Law Enforcement uses and match them.

My 2.5 cents.

[neo-crossbow]

If your down under, look at what the military/Law Enforcement uses and match them.

Excellent post. Another thing to remember for all those Aussie Adventurists. With the withdrawl of the MAG58 (L7 if your British / M240 if your American or FN MAG if your other) from section level in the Australian Army, there really isn't too much 7.62 used at base level of infantry operations. If you trawl through our low intensitry doctrine or some photos of our recent deployments you will see the Minimi setting foot in places only a 7.62 Belt fed monster should.

I have a Savage 5.56 bolt gun and I fire SS109's from it exclusivly should that day ever come. Currently you can get 840 rounds of F1 Ball ammo for $350 from most gunshops. It comes in a liner, already vac sealed. A nice little put away.

[inventorgp]

Well here 7.62 is reserved for Sniper and 5.56 is infantry - its what they use in
those crappy styres. I don't like bullpups, its a good idea to reduce the length
but, I don't like em'. 7.62 "hurts" (kills) to much so they use 5.56.

Would it be possible to get a MAG58?

Neo: whats your Savage like, grouping and all?
And did you match the cal. to the standard infantry cartridge here?

[Dank$taVegas]

Seems to be an old post, but since there have been new replys in the last few days thought I'd post.

For squirril and rabbit hunting I prefer my .50 BMG, one shot, one kill
To think people have told me that using a Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin for shooting Grizzly and other big game was over kill. :eek:

Best Bolt Action Rifle…..
Well that’s a hard question and one you will get many answers for. To say the truth there is no "Best Bolt Action Rifle" out there. It all depends on what it will be used for & the amount of money one has to spend on the gun & components. Every factory gun has flaws that can be improved upon, to enhance the guns performance & not all custom guns will fit the budget and needs for the shooter (I can speak with experience since I own 4 custom range rifles that see no use at all except they look really pretty in the gun safe, and have 5 factory rifles/guns that are used on a regular basis.).

One of the best ways to find out what gun suits you is to go to a shooting range and ask people there to shoot their rifles, some ranges have a assortment of rifles/guns on can try out. This will help you decide if a given gun is suitable for you.

If your looking for a good Stick/Sniper Rifle for long range shooting capable of hitting to 800yards with ease & up to 1000+ yards under good field conditions, more likely than not you will be looking for a custom gun. Don’t look to get too many rounds through the barrel of a custom rifle before you have to change the barrel (9,000-10,000 rounds if your lucky since the accuracy degrades after rounds have been put through it, most people who shoot in compatitions change their barrels after 2000 shots have gone through the barrel, then the break in of the new barrel begins.).

One of the best makers to look into for a decent long range factory starter rifle is a Savage, some people say they are shit, but I have nothing bad to say about them. There barrels use to be rather poor quality but have improved in the recent years. There are a good affordable rife for someone looking to get a stick, and can be upgraded rather easley & cheaply. Depending on how heavy of a bullet you will be firing through the factory barrel, one might want to invest in a custom barrel with a better twist to help improve accuracy.

What models of rifles Have you boys all got in your gun cabinets?
Rifles/Sticks
1)Ed Brown Custom Model 702 in the .300 WMS Caliber
2)Winchester 94 in .444 Marlin
3)Savage 12 BVSS in .243 with a 1 in 9.25 twist to handle the heavy .243 bullets.
4)GAP in .308 built by GAP
5)300 WSM Built on a Remington 700 action, Mike Rock (1-11.25 twist barrel).
6)GAP Rem 700 .308, Remy 700 action lapped and trued, Mike Rock 20" barrel w/ Spec Ops break, All Badger Ordnance metal, Badger Ordnance Oversized bolt handle knob, Badger 20 moa scope mount base, Badger rings, McMillan A3 stock. All work done by GAP
7)GAP 338 Lapua, Schneider 5p "Overunder" barrel 27" Plus break, Badger bottom metal, McMillan desert camo stock with 13.5lop and decel, Holland bolt handle, Factory turned trigger. All work done by GAP
8)McMillan TUBB 2000 Tactical, .308, original pistol grip and David Tubb SSS composite grip
second stock recoil insert.
Shotguns:
10)Mossberg 500 magazine fed, manually operated (pump action)
11)Benelli Nova 28" barrel, Mercury recoil reducer in the stock .
Handguns:
12)Taurus Tracker series .41 Magnum
13)Tauras Tracker series .357 Magnum

Most of these Rifles were custom built by GAP, and are used for long range target shooting only, I bought the custom rifles off my old man, who is into Shooting competitions of 1000+ yards, and gets a new Stick every year, and discards his old one at a redicusly low price to me (he wants me to get into Ranging; but I really don't have the time to spare right now), most of the custom built rifle have had well over $5000.00 Canadian invested into them, and are extreamly accurate at long range. Most of the custom rifles have less than 170 shots through the barrel, and see very little use, but they look pretty in the gun safe. The only ones I use on a regular basis are the 1st two in my list & one shotgun and both handguns these are my tried and true hunting rifles for deer and big game; and my Mossberg 500 magazine fed shotgun for ducks and other feathered friends, and 2 hand guns for backup protection incase the rifles don't provided enough stopping power and I'm cought in a close quarters situation with a wounded bear or large game animal; and being charged by a wounded Grizzly bear with no side arm and only a scope mounted weapon with no open sights is not a situation I want to have happen to me again:eek:

Edit.....
***Pictures adderd***
1)GAP in .308 built by GAP
http://rapidshare.de/files/25622809/GAP_308.jpg.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/25623777/GAP_308_2.jpg.html
2)McMillan TUBB 2000 Tactical, .308
http://rapidshare.de/files/25623526/McMillan_Tactical_308.jpg.html

More to come when I have time to upload......

[cletus]

the .303 smle cannot be beaten in value and performance,considering the fact that you live in australia it is the obvious choice;
-ten round magazine
-abundant stocks of cheap surplus ammo
-ease of scope mounting
-accesories are cheap eg.synthetic stocks
-the rifle was produced on your soil at lithgow arsenal
-easilly detached buttstock aids when concealment is a factor
-price

[neo-crossbow]

I don't like em'. 7.62 "hurts" (kills) to much so they use 5.56.

Would it be possible to get a MAG58?

Neo: whats your Savage like, grouping and all?
And did you match the cal. to the standard infantry cartridge here?

1) The change in calibre had nothing to do with effective range, power or price. It was to address 'the changing nature of the battlefield' and to keep up with DIB doctrine of amount of fire-power. This was the Australian reason for change. If you ever get the chance to read pre-vietnam circa pams of Australian doctrine you can see the argument for change building. What stopped the arguement mid way through Vietnam was when the SOI (School Of Infantry) published a lessons learnt pam for platoon commanders about to deploy totally questioning the 'penetrating ability of the 5.56 into vegetation'. This was reproduced a couple of years ago into the Infantry Corps magazine and should be available on back order to you.

2) Yes it is possible to get a mag58. I don't like your chances at it legally however. If you can get a cat R liscence good luck to you.

3) The Savage was on par for what I expected for the price. I had it bedded and re-crowned. Custom mounts were also machiened up for it. Your not looking at a 1/2 MOA factory job but you could come very close with patience. I have been firing factory loads from it but I am sure with premium factory or good handloads it would group better again.

4) I chose the Calibre because of the lack of .308 floating around at section level in the battalions. I've got a .308 but I am sure post TEOTWAWKI its going to have an exclusive role.

[ShadowKnows]

One bolt-action worth looking into is the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K31. It was the mainstay of Swiss military forces from 1931 to the 50s; they were one of the last countries to abandon bolt-action rifles for their military. The K31 uses a straight-pull bolt action, meaning that you just pull the bolt back and push it forward; you don't have to lift the handle upwards. It's known for its high accuracy and low price; K31s can be had wherever milsurp rifles are sold for around $120. Imported Swiss ammo is fairly expensive, ranging from 30-70 cents per round, but it's all non-corrosive and near match grade.

Basic information: 'http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/index.html'

Enthusiasts' forum: 'http://p090.ezboard.com/fcollectorguns35625frm1?page=1'

The rifles use iron sights, but you can buy clip-on scope mounts that don't require drilling and tapping: 'http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2006/stmariescopebaseswiss/index.asp'

Finally, here's a site full of general sniper info and equipment reviews: 'http://www.snipercentral.com/'

[inventorgp]

IGNORE MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS... As I understand more about firearms than I did.

How about a Ruger 96/22 lever action .22LR and fit it with a 25 round mag.

Or a Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. M16/AR15 mags fit this, so get a 40 round if you can. (7615 series shown)

Are the pictures showing?

++++++++++

Whatever you tried to attach wasn't working, so I deleted the links. Try again. NBK

[Cobalt.45]

How about a Ruger 96/22 lever action/ Or a Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle
Thing is, the thread is "Best Bolt Action Rifle"

But the guns you mention are good production long guns...

[Big Mac]

Basically I'd just get any BAR (Bolt-Action Rifle) from WWII (Lee-Enfield, Mauser, Mosin-Nagant, etc.) because they are reliable, battle proven, will last nearly forever, generally have good rifling (the Israeli Mauser I own currently has flawless rifling with no rust on the interior, just the outside) and are really cheap (mine costed about a 100 bucks after taxes, the dumbasses at the pawn shop had no idea what they had).

Word of advice on a Mauser chambered in 7.62mm: Do NOT use commerical loads of .308 Winchester. They are too hot in most cases and can cause an eruption.

[grendel23]

Big Mac,
"BAR" is usually short for Browning Automatic Rifle.

[neo-crossbow]

People need not make up any more acronyms. BAR most certainly is Browning Auto Rifle. Never heard it used for Bolt Action Rifle. There are enough TLA's around. (Three Letter Acronym)

[Big Mac]

Big Mac,
"BAR" is usually short for Browning Automatic Rifle.

I know it is, but I was using an acronym that was different from the usual use (hence the note afterwards like this one). Good that you're on your toes about it.

NCB (sorry, but it does fit) I suppose I could agree but I like that kind of small construction. Like playing a vengeful and pissy God or something. Regardless, look past the acronym and just consider the other information I posted.

[ozboy]

Inventorgp,

The Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. is now a cat C rifle due to the fact it can take M16/AR15 mags, (according to my local gunshop).

[neo-crossbow]

Inventorgp,

The Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem. is now a cat C rifle due to the fact it can take M16/AR15 mags, (according to my local gunshop).


I'd shop somewhere else. It (the firearm) once fitted with a magazine with a capacity of more then 10 rounds becomes a catergory D 'military style' fire-arm (even though its not semi auto)

It is the same as taking a 10 shot semi auto .22 and putting a larger capacity magazine on it. You can purchse the fire arm and the magazine, just don't put them together. The rifle hasn't changed classification, nor will it be doing so very soon. There has been a huge uproar at lever action shotguns at the moment also.

[nbk2000]

Lever action shotguns getting the axe? I guess some Oz politician finally rented Terminator 2. ;)

[inventorgp]

now a cat C rifle... (according to my local gunshop).

Well ozboy, it depends on the state you live in. Western Australia has(?) a ban on them.


It (the firearm) once fitted with a magazine with a capacity of more then 10 rounds becomes a category D 'military style' fire-arm (even though its not semi auto)


Then why do gun shops sell mags???


JUST A REMINDER (IN BOLD)
Category A weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not been
rendered permanently inoperable—
(d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle);

3 Category B weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not been
rendered permanently inoperable—
(d) a repeating centre fire rifle;

4 Category C weapons
Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not been rendered
permanently inoperable—
(a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity no greater
than 10 rounds;

5 Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon—
(a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for military
purposes or a firearm that substantially duplicates a rifle of that
type in design, function or appearance;
(b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with either an
integral or detachable magazine;
(c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or detachable
magazine with a capacity of more than 5 rounds and a pump
action shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds;
(d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of more than
10 rounds.

Model 1887, I love that shotgun, I love that movie:)


That REALLY sucks if that is true. Might as well get an armourers licence and build my own semi and full autos.

I was just mentioning those guns because they are and alternate for BAR. I personally would only get a BAR if it was chambered in .50BMG (and +.45), that is the only exception I'll make for myself.

---------------------------IT IS ALL BS------------------------------

[ShadowKnows]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD

"The PTRD-41 (Shortened from Russian, Protywotankovoye Rushyo Degtyaryova) was an anti-tank rifle produced and used from early 1941 by the Soviet Red Army during World War II. It was a single-shot weapon that fired 14.5 x 114 mm tungsten core rounds."

Fun for the entire SWAT team inside their armored car. I doubt anyone is shipping them to Australia, unfortunately, but I've heard they can be found in Canada, where they're completely legal. Prohibited in the US without a Class III license.

[defiant]

Armalite's AR-30 in .338 Lapua is a good quality long range bolt action:

http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar30.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/ArmaLite_AR-30.htm

The rounds are expensive at $4 a round, but the ballistics are exceedingly impressive.

[orangeman]

Pick up a break action .22. it was the best investment I made. It is so cheap to take care of and the price of round is very low.

If you are looking for something more powerful I like a 30-06. Scope or not its just fun to shoot.

[defiant]

On the first page of this topic frostfire wrote about a bolt action called "Intervention":

INTERVENTION a development of xm-107 Windrunner reduced caliber for .408 Cheyenne Tactical

1MOA~1k yards, remain subsonic at 2000 yards

The rifle he was referring to is the CheyTac Intervention (M100, M200, & M300). The .408 round remains supersonic at 2000 yards, and was designed to outrange the 338 Lapua. Intervention refers to its designed purpose as a counter-sniper rifle.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5356/cheytacintervention408nz8.jpg


More info available here: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn63-e.htm

[ozboy]

I have recently discovered that the Remington 7600/7615 series pump action rifle cambered in .223Rem (10 shot mag), has been put into cat B.

If you get caught with a hi-cap mag (M-16 type) you will find yourself to be in a lot of trouble.

The 1887 lever action shotgun is currently cat A. (6 shot, short barrel, only shottie we can own these days with that sort of capacity. (Not a bolt action but still my favorite).

[LibertyOrDeath]

Armalite's AR-30 in .338 Lapua is a good quality long range bolt action.
...
The rounds are expensive at $4 a round, but the ballistics are exceedingly impressive.That will probably be my next rifle. I've heard nothing but good things about it. I'll definitely be reloading for that mother, though.

I'm not sure what the best bolt action rifle is, but for the price I'd say it's very hard to beat a Savage 110FP in .300 Win Mag. Put a 10X Super Sniper scope on it with rings by Tactical Precision Systems, and you're in business.

http://www.savagearms.com/110fp.htm

http://www.snipercentral.com/sav110fp.htm

The scope is only $300 (or $400 for the side-focus model) but has quality comparable to scopes costing much more. The optics are very clear, and it's rugged enough to withstand .50 BMG recoil. Check out the review here:

http://www.supersniper.com/Reviews/4.htm

[nbk2000]

What about the Zeiss Victory Diarange 3-12x56 T Riflescope with integrated laser rangefinder?

With extremely long range shooting, precise range measurement is essential, and having the rangefinder in the scope means you don't have to take your eye off the target to range it. :)

Not cheap, but anything worth having usually isn't.

[defiant]

Zeiss has an extremely good reputation - but as you observed they're expensive. Maybe someday.

In the meantime I wouldn't get the Tasco. I'm prejudiced. Not long ago Tasco got contracts with the K-marts and Walmarts and got name brand recognition. But they were Chinese shit that didn't deserve their name brand recognition. Undoubtedly their scopes have improved - but its still a Chinese scope selling for near US prices - which is offensive. A 40 powered scope is also overkill in most applications, and if it was needed I'd prefer a 50mm rather than 30mm objective, and I'd want it with parralax adjustment.

In comparison the NCStar scopes are made in China but sell for a fraction of the price of either Tasco or US scopes, and are every bit as good as scopes costing far more. The NCstar 6x24-50 is priced at $120 (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SCP313-46172-2661.html). There is no rangefinder, but this model includes a forward focus, parallax adjustment, multi-coated lenses, illumination for low light conditions, along with other features found on far more expensive scopes.

Tasco relies on name brand recognition. Scopes manufactured in the same factory as Tasco can be had for a fraction of the price. Google search: CDNN Investments.

NCstar products (scopes, lasers, bipods, etc) also have a lifetime guarantee. Not that will do you much good if you lose your life due to equipment failure... - so spend a $1000 bucks and stop being cheap!

With regards to the Savages, as Dank$ta noted early on - Savages overcame a poor reputation. By all accounts they're accurate now, but they never fascinated me as the bolt travel was rather sloppy. It locked securely, but I lost interest.

Savages have a good reputation now and reportedly shoot accurately - but why get a bolt action in a caliber where there's an equally accurate mag fed semi-auto available? The Armalite and DPMS in .308 and .300 shoot close to 1/2 moa at 100 out of the box and are mag fed, and can be accurized - which is far more versatile than a bolt action in the same caliber.

A bolt action has its place for practice (slowing up a novice shooter) and/or special calibers, such as the .338. The .338 round is expensive, but Lapua brass can be reloaded some 10 times (annealing the brass along the way) - whereas typical cartridges can only be reloaded 2-4 times. So in the long term the cost of Lapua brass is negligible - however painful the initial layout of $80-90 for 20 rounds or $200 for 100 .338 brass cartridges may be (exluding the cost of bullets, powder, primers, and reloading equipment/dies/etc).

In any event, the .338 was designed to be a special purpose sniper weapon. Historically 300-500 kills is excellent for a military sniper. Even with practice rounds expended that's not a hell of a lot of rounds.

[nbk2000]

Historically 300-500 kills is excellent for a military sniper.

Do you mean 300-500 as in number of enemy killed, or did you mean 300-500 meter kills?

Because I think there's been only 2 or 3 snipers in history with 300+ confirmed kills, and those were during WW2.

As for anything you'll be betting your life on, Made in China = Death.

I've seen various chinese scopes at gunstores, and every one of them is shit.

Zeiss, Trijicon, Aimpoint, and their like is what you get, and you gladly pay the price if your life means anything to you. If you don't see it on the rifles of first-world soldiers in combat, it's not there for a reason.

[defiant]

Yeah, there have been very few snipers with 300-500 kills. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to stock up thousands of rounds of special purpose sniper ammo unless your feeding an army.

With regards to Chinese scope quality, 10 or 20 years ago I'd have agreed with you. Nor am I an advocate of Chinese products generally, but about five years ago a gun dealer nagged me into checking out NCstar. I'm glad I did.

They may not be the latest and the greatest - but the one's I have are clear, bright, and thus far haven't broken or fogged up. They also maintain zero. Thus far I haven't regretted a single NCstar purchase, and I have several scopes, bipods, and lasers. The laser is extremely efficient and lasts longer on a set of batteries than US made models (which I've since given away).

Russian and Ukranian military scopes are another high quality low priced alternative - but the selection of models and mounts is generally poor in the American marketplace.

Not that I've got anything against a $600 Trijicon, Zeiss, or Leopold [other than the price]. I'd also like a $5000 3rd generation night scope.

Maybe someday I'll buy one or acquisition one from the opposition. In the meantime, less expensive scopes are a viable option for outfitting a number of firearms. This is particularly true for someone who is caching weapons on a limited budget. Not every cached weapon needs to be a wet dream come true.

Nor is there anything irrespectible about paying $50-$150 for a good quality scope (new or used), $20-$100 for a mount, or $50-$100 on a iron/night sight upgrade (as backup).

Those WWII snipers with 300 plus kills managed with a lot less.

Nor should any optics be relied upon 100% - accidents happen. Iron sights are the backup (when feasible).

This said, the NCstar is not the ultimate scope for the "best bolt action."

[Boom-stick]

Best Bolt action?
Remy 700's hold a strong following at my club, but personally I favour the old British .303 and all of its variants, including the De Lisle Carbine in .45acp. I recently got the chance to play with a prototype reproduction for a modern De Lisle that uses Glock Hi-cap mags, very accurate little gun and very,very quiet too (thinking about ordering one for myself).

AIA make a Lee Enfield based 7.62x39 rifle that uses AK mags, they are getting popular over here in the UK and anything by Armalon has a good rep, but is quite pricey.
I don't own a bolt action myself (I'm a pistol man) but when I do get one, it will be Enfield based because I like the action. The way the bolt is positioned over the trigger allows for very fast manipulation with the thumb and fore-finger holding the bolt while the middle finger engages the trigger:)

.50 cal BMG's are ok if you like that sort of thing, but theres only a couple of ranges in the UK that are certified for that much ME and none of them are anywhere near me. Even .338 has been banned from most UK ranges now for being to powerful.

[nbk2000]

Do you already know you would be permitted to own a rifle, or are you assuming you'll be able to get such a permit?

From what we've seen of the UK and gun-rights, that may be too much of an assumption.

[Boom-stick]

nbk2000 said: Do you already know you would be permitted to own a rifle, or are you assuming you'll be able to get such a permit?


I am already permitted to hold such firearms, I hold Shotgun and firearm licenses with the various 'slots' to enable me to hold and use more of them.

Currently I Own,
Freedom Arms Mini revolver (one of only 2000 made)
.44mag Competitor (UK spec pistol)
.22 Browning Buckmark (UK spec pistol)
Various legally held Brococks
Beretta 686 12g
Beretta 303 12g

And currently on order,
.44mag Taurus (awaiting next shipment from the US)
.22 AR15 with Suppressor (currently being built to my spec)
Rem 1100 (11 shot Hi-Cap IPSC Race gun)
Rem 1100 Standard Skeet gun

In addition to what listed above both currently held and on order I'm also permitted to hold another Hi-Cap 12g Shotgun, a .223 rifle & a .308win handgun, any of which I trade over for a .45ACP DeLisle with Suppressor.

I have all the relivant paper work, I just struggle with funding it all:)

[LibertyOrDeath]

In the meantime I wouldn't get the Tasco. I'm prejudiced. Not long ago Tasco got contracts with the K-marts and Walmarts and got name brand recognition. But they were Chinese shit that didn't deserve their name brand recognition. Undoubtedly their scopes have improved - but its still a Chinese scope selling for near US prices - which is offensive. A 40 powered scope is also overkill in most applications, and if it was needed I'd prefer a 50mm rather than 30mm objective, and I'd want it with parralax adjustment.Are you referring to the Super Sniper scope I mentioned earlier? Because (just for clarification) it does have parallax adjustment, and the objective is 42mm, not 30mm. The magnification is 10X, 16X, or 20X, depending on the model. Your "40 powered scope" may be a typo -- that would definitely be overkill! :) Military snipers tend to use 10X on their rifles.

Anyway, I would seriously reconsider dismissing them outright. I'm not sure if they're made in China, but I can tell you for a fact that they're of extremely high quality. Mark Serbu recommends them for use on his .50 BMG rifles, so they're obviously plenty rugged. These were made to compete for a Navy contract and are even in use on some sniper/designated marksmen rifles in Iraq. Some pics here:

http://www.supersniper.com/SuperSniperPhotos.htm

And some more reviews: http://www.swfa.com/c-231-super-sniper-rifle-scopes.aspx

My only complaint about mine is that the clicks of the target knobs could be a little crisper.

They may not be the latest and the greatest - but the one's I have are clear, bright, and thus far haven't broken or fogged up. They also maintain zero. Thus far I haven't regretted a single NCstar purchase, and I have several scopes, bipods, and lasers. The laser is extremely efficient and lasts longer on a set of batteries than US made models (which I've since given away).I hadn't heard of NCstar, but thanks for the tip.

Still, if I could have only one scope, I'd rather have it be an extremely high-quality, variable-powered scope as opposed to a fixed-power.

Zeiss is definitely top-grade, and an integrated rangefinder is a big plus (though it's always necessary to be aware of equipment that can detect such devices). It's always nice to have a mil-dot reticle to fall back on. I hear consistently outstanding reviews of U.S. Optics and Schmidt & Bender, too.


Getting back to rifles proper, I think a big part of the question as to what rifle is the "best" has to do with cartridge choice. I was once a big fan of the .308 and I still think it's a fine round, but now that government thugs are increasingly using body armor that can stop .308 (and expanding the coverage beyond just the vital organs), I'm beginning to get interested in more potent calibers like .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua. Also, as a "fuck you" to California legislators who banned the .50 BMG in that state, Barrett Firearms is going to be coming out with rifles in a new caliber, the .416 Barrett, which should be awesome! The latter was featured on Discovery Channel's Future Weapons, though I missed it. From Barrett's website:

http://www.barrettrifles.com/faq.aspx
The Barrett Model 99 32” barrel chambered for .416 Barrett fires a 400 grain machine-turned solid brass ball projectile at approximately 3250 fps. :eek: :D

[chemdude1999]

LibertyOrDeath rekindled my interest in Savage rifles. They just came out with a new F-class (1000 yard comp.) set of rifles in .308 and 6.5-284 NORMA. They are the Model 12 F/TR and the Model 12 F.

The 6.5 has better ballistics, but the .308 grouped at 0.88 inches (average of five 3-shot groups) at 500 yards with Sierra 155-gr. HPBT!! It grouped under 2 inches at 500 yards with several factory loads too. All from the April '07 Shooting Times report.

It uses the new Savage adjustable trigger, 6 ounces to 2.5 pounds. It is a single shot bolt-gun. 30 inch stainless heavy barrel.

At under $1200 it's a deal. The rifle is made for bench-rest, however it looks like it could be fielded easily. Check out if you can.

[defiant]

LibertyOrDeath wrote:

Are you referring to the Super Sniper scope I mentioned earlier? Because (just for clarification) it does have parallax adjustment, and the objective is 42mm, not 30mm. The magnification is 10X, 16X, or 20X, depending on the model. Your "40 powered scope" may be a typo -- that would definitely be overkill!

I was, and it was an error on my part arising from a poor product description. The add (http://www.riflescopes.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SS10X42M) describes the Tasco Super Sniper scope as 10x42 30mm, and mistakenly I took that to mean it was a 10-42x30. Typically the size of the tube in the main product description title, but it was my mistake.

The ad also lists the scope as costing $399 - which is too much for a Chinese scope. Today I researched the matter further, and found several models of the Super Sniper available on Ebay for $145 or less from a seller in China.

Tasco's are built in China. As I recall they were formerly built in Japan, and were better quality at that time. Revues of Tasco scopes at midwayusa.com are mixed - half indicating that Tasco is a great value and half indicating that the scope broke in short order. These reviews were not for the Super Sniper, which Midway doesn't carry.

Also, the page you linked to does state that the M model includes parallax adjustment. The ads linked to from that page are not for the M models.

Sorry for the confusion.

With regards to NCstar - their 6-24x50 loses clarity over 20, which wasn't unexpected. Clarity and brightness is good below 20. Not excellent. Brightness at higher magnification is mediocre. Clicks are 1/8 and positive.

Next step is to see how it holds up breaking in a DPMS LR .308 24" stainless bull barrel. A DPMS notice that came with the rifle states:

"Please keep in mind that our barrels are production barrels, not custom barrels. Accuracy is dependent on many factors such as bullet weight, powder load, rifle twist, rifling lands, operator technique, etc. Our production barrels have achieved anywhere from .125 M.O.A. to 1.5 M.O.A. Obviously, we would hope that every production barrel would shoot .5 M.O.A., but with all the above factors we cannot guarantee a specific group size."

Last I heard, Savage barrels are also production barrels, and similar considerations apply.

My reason for getting the DPMS over a Savage or Winchester bolt action in .308 is that the DPMS is a 20 round magazine fed semi auto. Reportedly the DPMS is on a par to bolt actions in .308. The DPMS upper can also be changed out by removing two pins - so replacing the barrel is no more difficult than cleaning the gun. To me it makes sense to reserve a bolt action for calibers too large for magazine feeds or for long range accuracy in larger calibers.

[InfernoMDM]

I just wanted to say that I agree with LibertyOrDeath on the savage rifles. They are probably some of the best weapons for the price. I have done more and can out shoot my friend who has 800 dollar 9x-20x(?) Remington 700 (LE version with the heavy barrel and modified trigger) with my other friends 7mm out of the box savage.

I don't think the model he put out is really worth the price unless you plan to shoot a thousand plus rounds through it in the span of a year. Hell most people never breach 400 rounds a year shooting. There hunting rifle is half that and comes in every major caliber. I prefer 7mm for the price(half of the 300win mag) but both rounds are good choices for reaching out.

Note - Do NOT polish or smith Savage unless you know what you have bought. I believe the term is Case Hardened and they use a heat treatment that hardens the outer layer of the metal while retaining the playability of the softer steel. This means if you remove metal you will actually get a harder trigger pull.

[defiant]

Removing the hardened outer layer of the hammer or sear exposes the softer metal, resulting in wear and reducing longevity of the trigger group.

High end custom trigger groups tend to be hardened throughout.

[captain clay]

Savages are quite a good value, and are quite accurate but my choice would be a model 96 Swedish Mauser.
It can be purchased for less than thew Savage is much more robust and more accurate.
I settled on this rifle after much trial and research, and I consider it better than any contemporary bolt action for this intended role.
Time after time this rifle has out shot heavy barreled Remington ''tactical'' sniper derivatives at various competitions as well.

[Torvaun]

I like my Savage .243. Got it for deer, but I use it for targets more than anything else, and not nearly enough of that lately. If you're looking for a rifle with some real stopping power, consider a 30.06. Those were used for sniper rifles during Vietnam by U.S. Army and Marines snipers.

Of course, if you can put a bullet on target well enough to consistently headshot human-sized targets, even a .22 rimfire will pierce a skull and ruin large portions of gray matter. Accuracy first, then power.

[Rbick]

I was very excited to see this thread, considering I just purchased a beautiful new rifle yesterday.

It is a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO)LE Savage Choate with a folding stock and 20" barrel. I put on a retractable bipod and a Bushnell 5-15 power tactical scope. Of course the barrel is free float. It has an accutrigger with 1 1/2 pound pull. I thought my M-4s 4 1/2 pound pull was light, you can almost breathe on this one and fire it.

Since I'm breaking it in, I only moved the target out to 300m yesterday. I was putting rounds within the size of a quarter. After work, I'm probably going to site it in for 600m. When the scope is at max zoom, I can actually see my heartbeat make the sites move. Its so wonderful.

I plan to use this for medium game, such as deer and coyotes, for 600m competition matches, and for the government collapse, whenever that may be.

[prespec]

Savages are quite a good value, and are quite accurate but my choice would be a model 96 Swedish Mauser.
It can be purchased for less than thew Savage is much more robust and more accurate.
I settled on this rifle after much trial and research, and I consider it better than any contemporary bolt action for this intended role.
Time after time this rifle has out shot heavy barreled Remington ''tactical'' sniper derivatives at various competitions as well.


I don't know what sort of matches you have been attending, but the Mod 96, while being a fine example of how a military rifle of it's era should be made, is simply not up to modern competition standards.
The 6.5x55 cartridge is ,however, when used in a well constructed match rifle.
But again, it is no more inherently accurate than a 308 or any other well balanced cartridge. It just suits the requirements of long range competition well, having a high BC, low recoil, and a welter of excellent projectiles available.
Many F class matches are won with this old cartridge, but invariably in well put-together target rifles, built on a variety of actions, of which the Remington 700 is only one choice, but the Mausers with their long rear tang and bedding problems, are seldom included.
And there is a world of difference between any "off the shelf " offering, including the Remington tactical rifles, Savages, and such, and what can be achieved with some expert rifle construction and tuning on the same weapons.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Unfortunately not much is said about breaking in a new barrel. There is reason to believe that proper break-in of a new barrel is quite important for both longevity and baseline accuracy of a serious target weapon.

Many opinions exist on the method but generally today it is recognized that a break-in period, with proper cleaning of the rifling, throat, & protection of the crown can be vital to most new rifles.

I built a rifle several months ago as a project with a beautiful Hirtenburger barrel, Timmney trigger, McMillan, 11 degree conical crown, older Leupold, etc, etc. When she was finally finished I did a break-in that lasted for about three days and I deeply believe it was worth it and appropriate for that level of weapon.

[prespec]

That is an excellent comment Charles, and one subject in which opinions vastly differ.
My personal preference is not to bother too much apart from avoiding "cooking" the barrel by rapid fire, and to observe a good cleaning regime.
It also should be made clear I use only lapped , match grade barrels, and have had no evidence of copper fouling , apart from a .30/404 wildcat , which drove 180 Matchkings at 3650 fps, and would deposit copper on the 3-groove barrel which was visible to the unaided eye. This cartridge was a PITA, and the rifle has subsequently been re-barreled to a 308 Norma mag , and performs well.
But many serious competitors do a rigorous break in , and it certainly does no harm , and is really quite a good idea in mass-produced barrels.
Machine-gunning rounds out of any barrel will eventually cause throat damage by heat cracking and shorten barrel life.

I have used Autosol paste to remove fouling. The abrasive in this will cut out copper and leave the barrel clean , if used carefully. Simply wrap a patch around an undersize or worn bronze brush , and coat with Autosol, scrubbing back and forth using a bore-guide, and the copper is easily removed.

The fire-lapping systems available may be useful for rough commercial barrels, but are totally uneccessary and possibly detrimental to well made match barrels. Others will probably disagree, but that's just my opinion.

I see you went for the 11 degree crown. I have done quite a few of these , and they work as well as any other. The ideal crown would simply be a truly smooth face at right angles to the bore, but this makes no provision for protection from cleaning gear ferrules and other impacts on this critical area.
A good crown should have at least a chamfer to the depth of the grooves, and I like to use a Pope type crown with about a 50 thou. recess on rifles intended for field use , to guard against damage from the inevitable spills and bumps they encounter, and apart from that , the shape is really a matter of preference.
The traditional round crown looks pretty but is difficult to cut precisely , and usually benefits from a secondary chamfer with a sharp crowning tool which can be done, while still retaining the classic look.

It sounds like a nice rifle with good components, and should reward your care of the barrel. What cartridge did you go for , and what is it's intended use?

BTW..the Timney triggers can be further improved by replacing the rear sear pin , which is quite loose , with a close fitting one. They do this to allow clearance and re-setting with the military type striker tails , and these need to be modified to a straight-bottom type on many actions. But if it works fine , leave it alone.

On the subject of trigger parts, these can be annealed to allow modification , and re-hardened with Kasenit to introduce more carbon. I like to get a basic polish in the soft state, harden to about glass-hard....or when a file skips on the surface, then finish off with a fine diamond hone in the direction of travel. Then use fine wet-dry on the inside of the trigger body and sides of all moving parts, say 800 grit, and on the engaging surfaces. All the time avoiding rounding-off and getting out of square. A felt marker is useful to determine contact areas.
A buffer can be used, but it is easy to round-off edges with these , and finally , just break the extreme edge of the contacting surfaces with an extremely fine chamfer....a quick kiss with a diamond hone....to ensure reliability and reduce wear.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I can see we share quite a bit in re: to parts set-up. I went with the 11 degree solely from the standpoint of protection as I too believe that a straight crown is all that is truly needed but this will be a field rifle and may get some serious use.

And again on the Timmney: I know exactly of what you speak... I got shown that pin-slop some months back (seems ridiculous in an add-on trigger that they would want anything but tight fitting pivots, etc.). The rifle is 7.62 NATO chamber that a friend does as he has access to a very fine mil-reaming equipment. Pull is 1.25lbs and the older Leupold is a 10x. The sum of the rifle is 12.5 lbs with everything (sling, loaded, etc). Barrel is called a heavy taper @ 26" and is surprisingly yieldy. It's a keeper as I put an enormous amount of personal work into it and it's really set-up for me (I have long arms, etc).

[prespec]

Yep! But without that sloppy rear pin, they will not re-set on actions like M17, Mauser etc., and they are mainly designed as a replacement trigger for military actions.
This is typical of firearms design , compromises must be made and Timney do a great job within the parameters that basicly cater for "buy and fit" .They have to deal with a wide range of variables, and this is one way they do it.

The same applies to factory rifles. If they spent the time a good riflesmith could on them, and did all things that could be done, they would cost a whole lot more than they do.
I have seen vast improvements in factory rifles and ammo in the past 35 years , and they are now cheaper than ever.
A working man can now buy a genuine MOA rifle ,and a good scope off the shelf , and feed it with ammo better than most can handload, for about a weeks earnings, if he buys carefully.
This same performance in a factory rifle , ammo, would have been remarkable at one time, and cost a months earnings.

The one area one should never try to save money on is optics. There was some discussion of Tasco's earlier in the thread. These have no place on a precision rifle, and there are many others in this category.
It is better to have a $200 rifle with a $1000 scope than the other way around. You can always sort the rifle out!

It always fascinates me how the same old myths reappear from time to time regarding rifles, accuracy , and how it is obtained. Some of the manufacturers have much to answer for here, but it is not a mystical process and has a logic to it which is easily understood.

I will happily start a new thread , detailing basic procedures for buying, sorting -out , and shooting available rifles , provided there is enough interest from the members here.

BTW, Charles, what action did you build it on?

I hope the link below works....still figuring out computer tasks which any 12 year old would execute immediately...but this is the sort of thing I build for fun.
It was a 223 with 3/4" H-bar and new gas gear, and is now a 204 and actually shoots better than I can. Last long kill was a rabbit @ 350 yds , closely followed by a couple of magpies @ 265 and 280 when it was a 223. Also won a couple of any-rifle/any-sight matches too. Green thing in front is a case catcher to get my nice Lapua brass back.

50gr Speer TNT doing about 3500 with 26.5 ADI BM2 out of a short 20" barrel...nothing exceptional, but still can out-shoot most bolt guns.
Laser range-finders are necessary for this sort of thing. The 204 should give me another 100 yds.....we shall see.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_post-29-1091260218.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/post-29-1091260218.jpg)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_Mini30009Medium.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/Mini30009Medium.jpg)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/th_Mini30002Small.jpg (http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n52/prespec/Mini30002Small.jpg)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Parker-Hale action on that one - simply because I had it available and it was in new condition. I had thought of using Ruger 77 actions due to the low cost and frankly I don't see anything wrong with them if one is to clean-up the whole thing anyway...I did have a mil large ring Mauser but it was not as nice from the start and I didn't want to do even MORE work especially cosmetic stuff.

Did the suppressor have any effect of the cycling of the Ruger? Did you have to alter the gas vent?

[prespec]

The Parker-Hales are actually Santa Barbara actions made in Spain and have always been good. The Ruger 77's ,particularly in the later series , are really good too after some tuning. Typical Ruger.... their stuff is well priced and works just fine.

The suppressors have no real effect on cycling and are very quiet. About the only down-side is their length and the tendancy of propellant gases to evacuate back through the chamber when the bolt is held open on the last round. Regular chamber brushing is necessary.

I make my own gas housings , some with gas adjustment , and these allow a 3/4" barrel straight through without a reduction in diameter at the port, which is typical of conversions done using the original Ruger housing.
Real bad idea to step a barrel down and then back up in that way.

They also have four steel pillars to the receiver for bedding and the receiver is retained by 3mm cap srews making it indepandant of the trigger assembly.
I believe this really helps with accuracy and zero retention.

Oddly enough , I designed this pillar system myself but later found there are a few smiths who have been doing the same thing for a while, so can make no claim to it.
I guess good ideas suggest themselves.

I would sooner work on AR 15's and such , but licencing requirements make this a hassle and they cost more than I want to pay.

The two rifles on the chair are a Mini-30 , chambered in a 22 wildcat on the 6.5 Carcano case , shortened to give a bit more capacity than a 22 PPC 1-8" twist , and a 223 with an integral Picatinny rail set up to shoot 69-80grain pills , also 1-8".