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Arkangel
December 29th, 2002, 08:00 PM
Well, I haven't had one for a while, but yesterday I had an accident, which in many ways I'm glad about - I'm not too badly hurt, and it was a useful reminder about safety.

I was ramming a rocket, using a sugar/charcoal/sodium chlorate fuel. I had rammed the entire length of the mandrel, plus 1/2", and was ramming the last bit of powder before my grog end-plug. With what would have been the last couple of mallet blows, there was an explosion, and I saw that there was a large flame coming out of the tube. I picked the mandrel base/flaming tube up, and pointed it at the floor of my workshop, initially trying to extinguish it, then remembering what I was working with, realised it might go on to explode, so I carried it outside and dumped it on some gravel until it burnt out.

There are quite a few glaring fuck ups I made, and quite a few lessons learned, so I might as well give you the background.

Over Xmas I've been doing some testing of various comps, and rockets, and seem to have found a fuel that works ok for the time being. My brother was visiting, and my nieces were keen to see one of my rockets go off. I was therefore rushing to make one, and foolishly cut a number of safety corners.

1. I'd been for a run earlier, and was still in my jogging gear - shorts and sweat top.
2. For pryo work, I have leather gauntlets, sleeves, apron and a full face mask, NONE of which I was wearing.
3. My workshop is not properly finished at the moment, and I don't have an external magazine, so in it I was storing, (among other things), flash, flash Al, various commercial pyro's, acetone, hexamine, H2O2, the list goes on.
4. I didn't have a bucket of water in there to dump stuff in, I'd forgotten about that, having just installed a couple of dry powder extinguishers. The bucket would have been a much more useful idea under the circumstances.
5. One of my nieces had just come in to see what I was doing, but I continued to ram the rocket. She was still in when the rocket blew, and I shouted at her to get out, but she was trying to push the door instead of pulling. In the confusion, she didn't work it out for a couple of seconds. Thank god nothing else caught, and there was no additional flame in the room, but had there been, those wasted seconds could have hurt us both.

On the plus side, most of my chems were out of flames reach of the process I was involved in. I had about a pound of rocket comp in a tub nearby, but since this was the last bit I was ramming, I'd replaced the top. Had I not, maybe the whole tub would have gone off. And I think that's about it on the plus side, I was LUCKY, despite my carelessness/recklessness.

As things stand, I have a 1st degree burn on the web of my left hand, and a couple of spot burns elsewhere on my hands, and that's it. It could have been a whole lot worse.

Things I will do differently are:

1. No unbriefed, unprotected spectators
2. A dry, external magazine for storing comps and hazardous chems not in-use (BEFORE my next experiments!!!!!)
3. I will use full protection, EACH time - assume the worst WILL happen (how many times have I said to other people?) This includes full trouser legs
4. I'm pressing, not ramming in future - it was a mallet blow (rubber mallet, aluminium tools) that caused the explosion. It will be worth the investment in time and effort to make a press. Plus of course my grains will be more consistent
5. I will always have a large container of water on hand to dump stuff in
6. I will try to think at each stage of the process "what happens if"? It all happened very fast, and for a couple of precious seconds I was thinking "what the fuck!!??!" instead of "do this, or do that".

I am now a bit caned (for the pain, you understand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), and don't want to bother people much more with my tale of woe. However, I'm a bit embarrassed, not for the fact that this happened (shit does), but that the circumstances were so crap at the time. And of course if my lessons are of any use I'll be happy.

Commiserations and smart arsed advice welcome :)

zeocrash
December 29th, 2002, 08:08 PM
ouch thats nasty man, one of my dads mates blew his fingers off hammering explosive into a tube like that. hope you feel better soon

spydamonkee
December 29th, 2002, 08:24 PM
bummer dude, hope those burns heal soon, i hate getting burnt its not very nice :/
i hope to never have an accident with my experiments... but on the bright side if i do stuff up i will never feel it and it will serve me right, safty is usually No1 for me.

NERV
December 29th, 2002, 09:50 PM
Sorry about the accident dude. Hope your burns heal up okay. If things had gone a little differently Arkangel could have some serious burns. Just goes to show that safety should be the number one concern of us pyros.

Jumala
December 29th, 2002, 10:54 PM
Bad thing, but it was foreseeable.
I know from my own experiments with chlorate and sugar many years ago that it is easy ingniteable with a hammer on an anvil.
Blackpowder isnīt.

nbk2000
December 29th, 2002, 11:19 PM
Violation of the RTPB "Plan for Failure".

A bucket of water wouldn't have extinguished it because a rocket carries its own oxygen supply. In this case, the chlorate. For smothering a fire, use sand instead of water. Water could have a nasty reaction with some chemicals...worse than the fire.

If you can, you might want to install some sort of chute or passthrough to the outside where you could throw something out of the room ASAP. An open window perhaps? Let it burn a hole in the lawn rather than risk a fire in a room full of pyro chemicals.

Also, doors should be propped open so there's no fumbling around with in-swinging doors during a panic, like with your niece.

There's been many times when firefighters have found piles of bodies at a door that couldn't be opened because people paniced when the door didn't open when they ran into it, not realizing that it had to swing in to open.

NO spectators EVER! Pyrotechnics isn't a spectator sport. What if she light up a cigarette and threw the lit butt in what she thought was the trash can...but was actually a bucket full of magnesium powder (or something)? Oops...big shit!

Besides which, it's more fun to show off when they don't know how you did it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D

Crow
December 30th, 2002, 03:25 AM
I'm sorry to hear about the accident, of course, I wish you get well soon.
Lately I have been setting up my own lab in the basement of my house. It's not a very good one, but it does the job. It's a new addition basement as well so it has four walls, 4 windows(two of which lead inside, none of which open) and a bulkhead 6" across right next to my tool bench. On my tool bench I have a press, a ginder, a lathe, a large assortment of normal hand tools and electric tools. For safety I lined the ceiling with Flame retardent insulation and metal sheets. I also have a bucket of water strapped to the wall along with a bucket of sand and two fire extinguishers(Foam). I also have blankets, googles, aprons, boots, glooves, and I always wear ear plugs. I store my explosives, mostly HMTD and black powder :( in my shed, 15" away from the bulkhead. It is a steel shed with 2 padlocks on it. I keep the explosive in a small 12 inch safe which is in an overturned 55 gallon drum.
Any other safety tips I could add to this mini-lab?

BrAiNFeVeR
December 30th, 2002, 03:58 AM
Don't put explosives in a safe !!!

You have to put them in something that will absorb as much as possible energy from the shockwave. A safe will just get an enormous internal pressure and probably get the door blown off or total fragmentation, depending on the amount of explosives in it I think.
Anyway, it'll make some nasty heavy shrapnel ...

Place your explosives in a container (cardboard or plastic box) filled with pumice or something.

zeocrash
December 30th, 2002, 08:21 AM
this topic reminded me about safety.
i was down my local army surplus shop the other day when i saw one of these
<img src="ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/zeocrash/assuit.jpg" alt=" - " />
for Ģ40
it comes in 5 parts, boots, jacket, trousers (pants for american members), gloves and hat
is it worth my time buying it for protection, or is it too extreme

vulture
December 30th, 2002, 09:17 AM
It would probably protect your head against a minor blast, but the rest is just plain fire and heat protection. It won't help you much if say 100g of primary blows up in your face.

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]</small>

Flake2m
December 30th, 2002, 09:17 AM
It is probaly too extreme. A suit like that is worn by firemen if they are dealing with a really hot fire or it contains toxic chemicals.
A suit like that is also worn by people that pour metals.

While it would be a bit extreme it'd still be cool to have :D .

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Flake2m ]</small>

Mr Cool
December 30th, 2002, 09:38 AM
Zeocrash, the army surplus near me has a UXO disposal suit. Full Kevlar and polycarbonate protection :D . But it's expensive.

Bad luck Arkangel, hope you're not too shaken up by it. I once had an accident making an HMTD detonator, the bloody thing blew up while I was making it. No serious injury resulted, but now every time I'm working with or making HE's I get sort of flashbacks, my vivid imagination starts playing up. I get images in my head of it suddenly detonating and ripping my hands off, accompanied by the "SNAP<sub>beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep</sub>."
It can be really disconserting!

Guerilla
December 30th, 2002, 11:25 AM
Seems like the chlorate fuel is showing its true nature (smart ass comment? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ).. Anyway's, good you had rammed most of the fuel, more loose powder might have burnt more violently..

Yep, you'd be better to press your chlorate fuel instead of ramming it but pressing is slower and you'll propably have to use metal sleeve. And when you use a metal sleeve, you certainly need also a thick blast screen or similar... That's why I like nitrate based propellants, you never have to worry such things.

Glad you're ok and thanks for the caution :)

Arkangel
December 30th, 2002, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the kind words. As I said though, in many ways I'm pleased about it. A kick in the arse like this, without tooooo much pain or damage is a great reminder to sort your act out when you're getting sloppy. It could easily have been WAY worse.

And some good suggestions guys, keep 'em coming <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

These things can and probably will happen to you, if they haven't already. As you remind us constantly NBK, "Plan for failure" :)

Anthony
December 30th, 2002, 01:24 PM
Burns are fun things, aren't they? Heal up quick mate :)

Pressing would be less likely to accidentally ignite the composition, but if it does then it's completely confined and very likely to result in an explosion. Just presenting an alternative side to the discussion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Crow
December 30th, 2002, 01:27 PM
Thank you BrainFever, I was thinking that would happen but I really don't want anyone finding it. Also, if police get a warrant to search my house don't they need a second to search any safes? By that time the explosives would be long gone. Zeocrash, that looks like the suits volcanologists wear. They can fall in laval and get back out without any serious damage but only for a half a second or so. There was someone who fell in wearing one and didnt get a scratch on him.

Arkangel
December 30th, 2002, 01:50 PM
When I do get pressing, as you say, I'll need a sleeve to stop the tubes splitting. I plan to cut a slit down one side of the sleeve, leaving a few small sections intact, almost like a perforation on a tear off form. That way, the sleeve will burst in a predicted place, into one piece, rather than randomly. Also I'll have a sheet of something between me and the tube, to prevent the opened out sleeve hitting me.

Does that make sense?

Hopefully the perforated sleeve will still be strong enough to keep the tubes intact.

(Edit: Anthony, this did include an explosion :( . My ears were ringing, and it took me half an hour to find my ramming tool across the workshop. HOWEVER, I know what you mean - we're talking the difference between firecracker and a pipe bomb)

<small>[ December 30, 2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

EP
December 30th, 2002, 06:30 PM
But at least when you are pressing you have can have a better blast shield seperating you from the rocket. I've seen some very nice presses with four inch thick plexiglass blast shields, looks expensive!

As for sleeves, if you haven't seen this before, an idea to consider: A lot that I have seen use a PVC section split down the middle into two pieces. Then the tube you are pressing is put into this, which is all held together with hose clamps. I guess that doesn't help for the fragmentation issue, but it does make a good sleeve. :)

kingspaz
December 30th, 2002, 08:01 PM
arkangel, sorry to hear about your accident. shit, hope your hand recovers soon. well atleast its given you a good kick to do it safely. i like the way pyros don't even consider quitting ever. haha, none of this 'hm, maybe i should stop pyro' just the 'next time i'll definately do this...' :)

CyclonitePyro
December 30th, 2002, 09:46 PM
I have a nice press but a shitty blast screen. Where can someone find thick plexi-glass or polycarbonate?

kingspaz
December 31st, 2002, 06:04 AM
called security glazing (or similar) and from shops which sell plastic windows.
like this but not in the UK for you.
<a href="http://www.diy-plastics.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.diy-plastics.co.uk/</a>

Guerilla
December 31st, 2002, 08:45 AM
Strong transparent blast screen isn't necessarily essential, ie. if you place a thick wooden or metal panel between you and a press and then a small mirror in appropriate direction that you can operate the press behind the panel by looking into the mirror. Thin transparent screen can be still placed in front of the mirror to cover potential fragments coming from the mirror. This way it'll be at least way cheaper than obtaining one thick plexi glass..

Arkangel
February 25th, 2003, 07:09 PM
I think I might have worked out what caused this accident, with a fuel that I didn't imagine would be impact sensitive.

I use 3 tools for ramming rockets. First, a mandrel, incorporating a 6mm (but slightly tapering rod to form the core. (This has a flat top)

Next is rammer #1, an aluminium rod, with a 6.25mm hole all the way through.

When I've rammed fuel above the coring mandrel, I use a second rammer, which is a plain rod, with no hole.

As I was making a couple of rockets the other day, it occurred to me that if I'd only had a small layer of fuel between rammer #2 and the mandrel, it could have acted as though I was hitting some of the fuel on an anvil. That might have been enought to ignite the bit of fuel between the rammer and the mandrel.

This may or may not be the cause, but either way, I'll be finishing all my mandrels with a rounded or pointed top in future

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</small>

Anthony
February 25th, 2003, 11:45 PM
That does sound a likely scenario, good thinking :)

Microtek
February 26th, 2003, 08:38 AM
I have one piece of advice which probably won't sit too well with many of you guys. On the other hand it virtually guarantees that you will never be seriously injured: Scale down.
Tests using 0.1 grams of HE are entirely possible as long as the HE is reasonably sensitive ( so no NTO, TATB or ANFO ). Detonators don't need to contain more than 0.02 g PETN and 0.01 g ( un-dextrinated ) lead azide or silver azide, as long as there is direct contact between the primary and the base ( and the base and the charge to be detonated ).
Even if you don't like the prospect of confining yourself to so small amounts, it is possible to make a compromise, by using a detonator of this size and including a small booster ( such as 2 grams of pentolite with a high degree of PETN ) between it and the main charge. That way you will have severely diminished the risk of preparing the initiating train.
Obviously, it is more difficult to make that kind of adjustment to rocketry if you want rockets that fly very far, but you can still make small rockets ( less than 2.5 cm in length ) that can fly hundreds of meters.
Scaling down also has the advantage of drawing less attention and mitigating any charges brought against you ( at least around here ).

TheBear
February 28th, 2003, 03:58 PM
I agree with you Mikrotek, but most of the people here wants to experience the destructive power of HEs which isn't very noticable when using charges in that order of size.

As for NaClO3 + sugar: don't mix them! It makes a very "raspsensitive" mixture. In sweden NaClO3 became regulated after too many young boys got their hands blown off by this mixture (although they probably made pipebombs with it and smashed the pipeends together with the explosive inside).

My chemistryteacher told me that she used to let the pupils grind small amounts of NaClO3 + Sugar with mortar and pestle when reading about oxidation and reduction plus that the pupils thought it was very exciting to hear the cracks and all. And during one of these experiments (the last one ever conducted with her permission) using the same amount of powder as always (this experiment had been made many times for several years) the motar was shattered by a loud crack and shrapnel from the mortar cut the boys hand (not to bad though). My chemistryteacher was watching all the time and the boy who was grinding wasn't doing anything unusuall and suddenly it all went off. I personaly think it went DTD and detonated. So if you have to use NaClO3 + sugar, bear in mind: it is very sensitive to friction.

Probably you knew all this and I get the picture that you're a lot more experienced than me in this buisness so I don't want to sound like I'm giving you a lecture but I really would hate to see you get hurt. I'm looking forward to see the pics from your upcoming mini-katyscha (sp?) keep up the good work and play it safe.

simply RED
February 28th, 2003, 05:09 PM
Homemade rockets are veeery dangerous!
Once a rocket engine made of KMnO4,S filled CO2 capsule has its duse full of dirt. I tried to clean it with a nail, and the engine started as i was holding it.
It flew just in the opposite direction of me....